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Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

Habefiet

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Something's not clear to me. For the following question I'm making up totally arbitrary numbers.

Let's say I'm getting hit 50 units up and 50 units right. Let's also say that at whatever percent I'm at, VI in a given direction will give me 10 units of difference.

If I VI down, I will go only 40 units up but still 50 units right.
If I VI left, I will still go 50 units up but only 40 units right.

My question is this: If I VI down-left, will I go 45 units up and 45 units right, or 40 units up and 40 units right? Do both an x and y input have their own separate maximum affordable units of difference, or is the maximum across x and y combined?
 

FlamingForce

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Is the vector angle read on the last frame of hitstun like with DI? Is it possible to catch someone with a bad vector?
 

MadKraken

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Something's not clear to me. For the following question I'm making up totally arbitrary numbers.

Let's say I'm getting hit 50 units up and 50 units right. Let's also say that at whatever percent I'm at, VI in a given direction will give me 10 units of difference.

If I VI down, I will go only 40 units up but still 50 units right.
If I VI left, I will still go 50 units up but only 40 units right.

My question is this: If I VI down-left, will I go 45 units up and 45 units right, or 40 units up and 40 units right? Do both an x and y input have their own separate maximum affordable units of difference, or is the maximum across x and y combined?
40 and 40. The range of influence is a box shape.
 

Conda

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Vectoring implies that the game is just now using vectors. No, vectors have been used for all of the games, but rotated instead of added. Vectors are not new. Maybe not call it DI since it's not technically changing the direction to try and put on the breaks, although the direction can sort of be changed if not going in the opposite direction, vectoring doesn't take sense as a term for this.
Exactly. It seems that DI used vectors anyway, but we called it DI. No reason to stop calling it DI just because it works differently in this game.

And both communities won't get confused - we know each game is different. Melee players don't get confused when we mention a Brawl mechanic - they recognize we're talking about a different game.
 

!BSP

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This might help
This.

DI is not VI because you are shifting the direction of the path you would take from being struck by an attack, which would also mean that DI isn't vector addition since you're only changing the angle of the initial vector.

VI does not affect that initial path directly, but your additions can change your end result. The end goal of VI is directional influence, but the way you go about it is different and will produce different results if tried in brawl/melee/PM.
 
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_Keno_

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I'm definitely still going to call it DI. I don't see why a new name for "using your control stick to survive kill moves / escape combos" is necessary.
 

Colino

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The findings are very interesting and I'm grateful this research was done, but I fear this is going to make stocks last even longer than they are right now. And that's not necessarily good
 
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_Keno_

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Just use 3 stocks like brawl if it gets to be too ridiculous.

If DI meant "using your control stick to survive kill moves / escape combos", I'd agree with you.
It's not the definition, just the purpose.
 
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Habefiet

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Exactly. It seems that DI used vectors anyway, but we called it DI. No reason to stop calling it DI just because it works differently in this game.

And both communities won't get confused - we know each game is different. Melee players don't get confused when we mention a Brawl mechanic - they recognize we're talking about a different game.
1. Melee and Brawl do not have mechanics that are totally different that are called the same thing, to my knowledge
2. This isn't just about people heavily invested in the competitive scene--as others have pointed out, this is about making the games accessible to newer players. It should be immediately clear that these are different mechanics with different execution.
3. DI did not "use vectors," at least not in any way meaningfully comparable to this mechanic. I'm not seeing how people miss how different this mechanic is.
4. This mechanic can be used in ways that do not change your direction, as has been previously pointed out

Why are people so averse to having a different name for a mechanic that is different in both function and execution? Doesn't make any sense to me at all
 
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ENKER

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I also feel there is no good reason to be against calling it VI. I feel Strong Bad did some great investigative work and we should acknowledge that by honoring his coined term!

I also agree, this makes the game more accessible to those who are newer to Smash and/or newer to the competitive scene. I feel this is a good thing! Let's give it a good run before we shoot it down!
 
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Conda

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We can just call it Distance Input, which becomes DI. Helps us use the same vocabulary we are used to, while being accurate.

We have a problem of making technical things sound 'too cool'. No commentator wants to have to say "that player Vectored well" or "that was good VI, which means Vector Input by the way". It is clear that it's a name that conveys that the tech is cool and technical, rather than a name that clearly and accurately depicts the actual application of the tech.

Directional input isn't fancy sounding, but it conveys what it means. As does pivot-grab and short-hop. If somebody said we should call short-hops "fractional jump", due to pressing the jump button for a fraction of a second to perform it, we wouldn't have listened. Simple clear names are better.

Vectoring changes your launch distance mostly so conveying THIS in the name of the tech should be the priority. Which is why Directional Input is inaccurate, but Distance Input is accurate. You can explain it simply, which means it works as a term - "DI is distance input, you perform an input to change your knockback distance." It's as eloquent to explain as Directional Influence, which means it's a better term.

VI and Vectoring is not a good term, no matter how technically-descriptive it may be.

This is all my opinion and just meant to be healthily constructive. :)
 
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!BSP

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I'm definitely still going to call it DI. I don't see why a new name for "using your control stick to survive kill moves / escape combos" is necessary.
Because how you are changing your direction is different, and if you try VI in Brawl/Melee and DI in Smash 4, you will get different results.

In Brawl/Melee/PM, if I hit you with an U smash on FD and you barely die off the top, the best response would be to hold the control stick either left or right. This will change the angle of the knockback you receive, but it will not affect the distance the game determined for you to travel. Hopefully, your changing of the direction caused the distance to not be sufficient to send you past the blastzone, thus KO'ing you.

Now, let's say you bring this same mindset into smash 4. I hit you up, and you hold right. Your input of right is not changing the angle of the knockback you are receiving. All you are doing is adding a right component to your trajectory. The result? You will still travel the vertical distance necessary for my Usmash to kill you.

Instead, what you should be doing is holding down, which will add to the initial knockback vector, and shorten the distance you travel upwards, hopefully saving you. You are indirectly affecting the distance the game determined for you to travel.

Now, if you try to do that VI input in Melee/Brawl/PM, you're still going to die, because your control stick is changing the angle of the knockback in those games.

If someone sees/hears something "DI" related and tries it in smash 4, it will do nothing for them when launched vertically, and it won't be the most optimal way to handle horizontal knockback. If someone hears somebody talking about VI mechanics in smash 4, but doesn't know the difference and they try it melee/brawl/pm, it will not work the same way and they'll get different results (holding the control 180 degrees from the direction you are hit does nothing in DI). They need to be called different things.
 
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Strong Badam

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Hey guys, I'm planning to answer any and all questions that have been posted since this morning later this afternoon/evening. I'm currently en route to a tournament this weekend and just got off my flight, and now traveling to my housing. Thanks for your patience, I will be doing my best to clear this up to anyone who still doesn't understand.

In the meantime I'd appreciate it if you guys would give me a follow on Twitter! I enjoy increasing my social media presence and now's a good opportunity. :p My Twitter is @Strong_Badam
 
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LinkNIvy

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Exactly. It seems that DI used vectors anyway, but we called it DI. No reason to stop calling it DI just because it works differently in this game.

And both communities won't get confused - we know each game is different. Melee players don't get confused when we mention a Brawl mechanic - they recognize we're talking about a different game.
Can't call it DI cause it's not used to really change direction but VI is a stupid term because vectors probably aren't a new thing in Smash.
oh...
 

!BSP

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Can't call it DI cause it's not used to really change direction but VI is a stupid term because vectors probably aren't a new thing in Smash.

oh...
The ability to add your own vector to your knockback vector is new.
 

Conda

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Except it's not just distance, either. While the word can be daunting to the mathematically challenged, "vector" is absolutely the right term here.
Not for actual use nor explaining it. Commentators and players do not want to have to explain what a vector is. Game mechanics should never be called the technical name for what is causing the mechanic.

We do not call dodging 'frame-based hitbox obscuring'. We call it dodging, because it is dodging. We should call 'vectoring' a name that suits what it is actually doing, not what is technically behind the mechanic.

We have to stand back and not get as attached to the scientific name. This is something scientists have to do often, but is a worthwhile endeavour.

Wavedashing wasn't called "ground-impact momentum dodging". It was called something that actually conveys what is going on. You dash, and a wavey smoke effect trails you. It's wavedashing.

We can talk about the effects of vectoring, but by god let us call it something that has more conveyance.
 
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!BSP

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But that is exactly what you are doing. You're adding a vector.
 

Conda

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The ability to add your own vector to your knockback vector is new.
This does not mean we need to call the mechanic 'vectoring', as it is obscure, uninformative, and lacks any conveyance whatsoever. We can do better.

Saying "you add a vector" is not conveyance. It's like saying "thermodynamics is thermodynamics" Vector is not a good word to use for the name of the AT, simply put. This is not meant to be combative, it is meant to be constructive. The smash community has a history of choosing accurate and conveying names for its ATs, let's not stop now.
 
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MadKraken

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How about these names:
Omnidirectional Flight Influence = OFI
Square of Life = SOL
Anti-KO Flight Tweaking = AKOFT
Aiming My Unconscious Body As It Flies = AMUBAIF
I Would Have KO'd You Too If Not For Your Meddling Vector Input = IWHKOYTNFYMVI
 

LinkNIvy

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1. Melee and Brawl do not have mechanics that are totally different that are called the same thing, to my knowledge
2. This isn't just about people heavily invested in the competitive scene--as others have pointed out, this is about making the games accessible to newer players. It should be immediately clear that these are different mechanics with different execution.
3. DI did not "use vectors," at least not in any way meaningfully comparable to this mechanic. I'm not seeing how people miss how different this mechanic is.
4. This mechanic can be used in ways that do not change your direction, as has been previously pointed out

Why are people so averse to having a different name for a mechanic that is different in both function and execution? Doesn't make any sense to me at all
Unless someone knows how the movement was done in past Smash games, it's safe to assume that they use vectors. The game is pretty physics based and DI is just changing the direction of some sort of velocity, which is probably done with vector.
 

Conda

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There is also no shame in accepting "DI" as the word to use when talking about influencing knockback properties in Smash. It does not have to mean we are talking about "specifically direction-altering inputs", but "DI" has become a word of its own now, which may need to have more wide application in the Smash community. It's a good thing to have an eloquent and characteristic vocabulary develop, and we shouldn't think too OCD-ishly technical about naming.

This is a community older than a decade, with a history and vocabulary that is unique and has traditions built up. Saying "DI" does not mean we are being inaccurate, as much as saying any other english word with a vastly different origin inaccurate. It becomes a term of its own, and using "DI" to describe inputs that alter knockback properties in Smash 4 will be just fine.
 
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LinkNIvy

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The ability to add your own vector to your knockback vector is new.
But vectors themselves aren't new, which makes "Vectoring" a term that's just trying to sound cool.

The keeping it as DI suggestions but have it be distance and/or direction could work to keep it simple. If it checks out, no need to change it if it's a catch all.
 
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!BSP

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This does not mean we need to call the mechanic 'vectoring', as it is obscure, uninformative, and lacks any conveyance whatsoever. We can do better.

Saying "you add a vector" is not conveyance. It's like saying "thermodynamics is thermodynamics" Vector is not a good word to use for the name of the AT, simply put. This is not meant to be combative, it is meant to be constructive. The smash community has a history of choosing accurate and conveying names for its ATs, let's not stop now.
Yes, you're right. Your guess is as good as mine though.

The end result is directional influence, but it's not DI...so...?

But vectors themselves aren't new, which makes "Vectoring" a term that's just trying to sound cool.

DI could work to keep it simple since it could be distance and/or direction. Then nothing has to be changed.
I see what you're saying, but I still wouldn't call it DI because DI would then mean different things across games, and hearing/seeing it for one game will immediately set you off track for another.
 
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Conda

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But vectors themselves aren't new, which makes "Vectoring" a term that's just trying to sound cool.
Yes. It's like DACUS - Dash attack cancel up smash. A silly name, but it didn't try to be anything flashy or cool. It was accurate, dorky, but had conveyance.

Dash attack cancel up smash - "oh, so you cancel your dash attack into an upsmash. "

Vectoring - "oh, you... add... vectors... to frames? What is a vector again? Is it a thing used in game development to calculate physics? Why are we naming a mechanic as if we are agents in the matrix?"

Yes, you're right. Your guess is as good as mine though.

The end result is directional influence, but it's not DI...so...?
The english language would have ten times as many words if we couldn't have multiple definitions for words with different origins. Everything from Flower to Pot to Soap aren't 'accurately named'. But our language would suck if it was.
We call a lot of things words that don't technically make sense, but make sense after we cement the connection.

This is not a pipe = this is not a DI. Same point being made - words are just words, it's the meaning that matters. And DI has close enough roots to be able to carry proper new meaning in Smash 4.
 
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LinkNIvy

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Yes, you're right. Your guess is as good as mine though.

The end result is directional influence, but it's not DI...so...?



I see what you're saying, but I still wouldn't call it DI because DI would then mean different things across games, and hearing/seeing it for one game will immediately set you off track for another.
People will clarify Melee's DI vs Brawl's DI just by saying which game they're talking about. S4 doesn't have to be different.
 

MadKraken

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Serious suggestion: Flight Influence

That's what you're doing, you're influencing your flight path. You can't do Directional Influence, because it's not just direction, and you can't do Distance Influence, because it's not just distance; it's both. You're influencing you're flight as a whole.
 
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Conda

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Yes, you're right. Your guess is as good as mine though.

The end result is directional influence, but it's not DI...so...?



I see what you're saying, but I still wouldn't call it DI because DI would then mean different things across games, and hearing/seeing it for one game will immediately set you off track for another.
No, many games change mechanics from iteration to iteration, yet players still use the agreed upon name.

"Aggro" is a word used in every MMO, even if the MMO doesnt technically have the traditional aggro mechanic.

There can be Melee DI and Smash 4 DI. We'll call it DI, but it's clear its different between both games. That's how you'll differentiate between them. It's like when you have to further describe a color.

Green? Light green, dark green, blue-green, yellow-green. But it's still green, and that's the word you'll use in most conversation to describe your new shirt. And that's how we'll use the word "DI". Because after 10+ years, it IS a word of it's own now, and it doesn't matter so much what the roots are, but what the meaning is.
 
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•Col•

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I was a little worried when reading this last night, because people were saying this discovery would lead to players living even longer in matches, but then I realized something.. This is actually probably a contributing factor as to why it already feels like characters live a long time. A lot of players were doing it without thinking about it.

At least, I know that I have been doing it unintentionally while playing the demo. Rather than using traditional DI (pressing the control stick perpendicular to your trajectory), I have been pressing it toward the stage instead most of the time, because it 'felt right'. I wouldn't be surprised if other people were already doing this as well.
 

ChillySundance

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Just call it whatever for now, people need to start testing it properly asap. More specifically, testing ways to effectively predict/counteract/option select it at lower percents.
 
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TGT | Ghosty

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So after playing Smash 4 for the past few days, and feeling how it is, I began to notice peculiar trends in how knockback is determined. After doing some investigative work, I've successfully determined what's going on and proven it. Before I explain that, though, I would like to explain the mechanic Directional Influence as it appeared in past Smash titles for those who are unaware.

In previous Smash games, Directional Influence is a HUGE factor to not only high/top level play, but even mid-level play. Unlike other competitive fighters where combo & punishment mitigation is nearly non-existent or limited to resource-based mechanics or RPS techs, Smash games (specifically, Melee and Brawl, as well as Project M as a result) give the combo'd player an option to mitigate their punishment and interact with their opponent despite being in stun. By holding a direction by the time a move sends you flying, a player is able to influence the direction they're being sent. Note that the key word here is influence; a player is unable to add or subtract knockback, only change the trajectory angle. Depending on the game this generally allows you to change the launching trajectory of the attack you're hit with by +/- 18 degrees. Click here for a more in-depth guide. Note that this is not the same mechanic as Smash DI.

Now that you understand all of that, throw it all out the window for Smash 4. Instead of DI, a different mechanic is present. To the untrained eye it may seem similar, but it in fact works in an extremely different way that drastically changes how we decide which direction to hold when we take a hit. To explain this mechanic properly, I need to first explain what happens when a character is hit. So what's happening when you get hit?

When you get hit, you receive knockback. This is a raw value calculated based on percent, weight, the knockback values of the move, and the damage/staling of the move, and then your character moves that many in-game units per frame. There's a constant in the game that subtracts from that speed, so you are going X units/frame on frame 1 and then (x-constant*frame#) units/frame on subsequent frames. Other factors take place such as a character's falling speed acceleration and such, but that's the general idea. Physics is fun!

In Smash 4, by holding a direction on the control stick (or circle pad in our case), you're able to add a vector of units/frame to your knockback when launched. A simple explanation of a vector in this context is a value of units/frame as well as a direction. I believe this vector's strength is a percentage of the knockback you're suffering, so it's less powerful at low percents/when hit by weak attacks and more powerful at higher percents/when hit by powerful attacks.

The use of this mechanic, I will call Vectoring. It's called such because it allows you to make a vector additional to knockback (functioning independently) in any direction you'd like. Please note that referring to this mechanic as Directional Influence is not only incorrect, but misleading and can easily cause confusion. Unlike most other series, our community keeps playing games competitively after sequels are released, so it's important to not conflict with prior terminology when describing different phenomena. The problem with calling it DI, and saying it influences your trajectory, is that you can Vector parallel to the initial trajectory. "DIing" an upwards-sending move down doesn't change your trajectory, and as such DI is a poor name for it. The best way to describe the mechanic without confusion is to, as I have, explain that it allows you to add an additional vector to your flight path, that doesn't necessarily alter trajectory. Thus, vectoring is what we should use unless Nintendo gives an official name. (Hitstun Shuffling seems to describe SDI, not Vectoring).

For explanation purposes, let's assume the percentage of this is 20%. You are hit by an Upsmash whose knockback value at your current percentage is 100. For simplicity's sake, the trajectory of this attack is 90 degrees, straight upward.
You are holding down, which grants you a vector downwards of 20 (units per frame, I'm just going to use numbers from now on).

^
|
|
|
|
100

|
v
20

When these vectors are added, the resultant knockback vector you suffer is 80 and upwards.

^
|
|
|
80

Similar is true for if you were to hold up in this situation; the resultant vector would be 120, which would cause you to die at an earlier percent than if you hadn't held anything. This has huge applications for survival as well as combo escapes.

So basically, you get to go a further or shorter distance, or add some adjacent distance to your flight path, but you do not suffer additional/reduced hitstun. It's basically like having a mega Automatic Smash DI that scales with KB.

Example 2: As in the previous example, you are launched vertically with a knockback vector of 100. Rather than Vectoring vertically (up or down), we will Vector horizontally, to the left or right.

^
|
|
|
|
100

— >
20

Unlike in other smash games, the resultant vector's vertical component is not any lower, and as such you will not survive at any later percent than you otherwise would. I don't have the means to describe this vector in ASCII, but it's a vector whose vertical component is 100 and horizontal component is 20.

In the graph below, as in previous examples, the victim is struck by a move that sends straight up with a strength of 0. Their starting point, for explanation purposes, is (40,0).


Visual graph by @Krynxe that represents the possible Vectoring directions and their resultant endpoints.

To reiterate, this percentage value in these examples is most likely not the actual value and is only a value used for explanation purposes. In fact, there may be a formula at play to determine how strong it is that scales exponentially, linearly, or otherwise, rather than a simple percentage. I have literally no idea.

You might be thinking to yourself, "An interesting theory, Strong Bad. But I'm pretty sure people have been talking about 'Down DI' for a couple days now, which reduces knockback of all attacks regardless of trajectory by simply holding down. Why should I believe your 'Vectoring' over 'Down DI'?"

A fair question, that has a fair answer. It's simple; I have tested KO percents while holding various directions on the circle pad and found them to support my theory. For these tests, the attacker SD'd between tests to ensure moves were fresh, and the victim performed a long-lasting taunt to ensure the victim didn't walk, jump, or crouch before impact.
YouTube Link

A quick impromptu demonstration of this technique is showcased. Would rather have a better vid but whatever.

Holding down against vertical attacks, as explained earlier, does indeed cause you to survive for longer. The test for this I did was with Game & Watch's fully charged UpSmash against Jigglypuff on FD. With no control stick direction, Jigglypuff dies at 47% (before the hit of course). Interestingly enough and contrary to our prior perceptions of Directional Influence, when holding either left or right, Jigglypuff still dies at 47%, even though she clearly is sent to the left or right and not straight up. Holding down, however, allowed Jigglypuff to survive even when struck at 51%. Later testing found downward-vectoring to allow Jigglypuff to survive at 52% as well, and die at 53%.

However, against horizontally sending attacks, holding down either does not change your kill percentage or actually makes you die earlier. Testing this has been fickle, as anyone well versed in Smash mechanics is aware that "horizotally sending moves" actually send at a trajectory closer to ~45 degrees diagonally upwards, and a character's falling speed acceleration attribute (commonly known as gravity) acts simultaneously with knockback trajectory to make it appear to be more horizontal. But I can confirm that what I said earlier is true, as I have tested this with a fully charged Bowser Fsmash against Jigglypuff at the ledge of FD. Given the same percentage (14% in my tests), Jigglypuff died whether I was holding down or not at all. And as expected given the previous explanation, holding toward the stage resulted in Jigglypuff not dying.

These tests were conclusive; the mechanic in place in Smash 4 is as I described it above, and does not function similarly at all to Directional Influence. Jigglypuff dying at the same percent even when vectoring horizontally confirms this.

In conclusion, this is absolutely one of the biggest mechanical changes in Smash 4 in the context of competitive play. Throws that would normally combo well into the 80s against many characters such as Sheik's Dthrow, Rob's Dthrow, etc. become purely positional throws quite early in a stock if you hold upward. Moves that would otherwise kill you off the top, don't. If for some reason you'd like to die earlier off the top, this is the first smash game to allow you to do so. Vectoring properly against horizontal attacks is very similar to how one would DI them in previous smash games, but vectoring properly against vertical attacks is completely different. As explained earlier, trying to "DI" as one would in a previous smash game does literally nothing to help you live.

I'd like to make a better video and add some nicer looking diagrams, but I think this should suffice for now.
Discuss.

Dude.... Knockback Influence! or Ki

It's and easier term that sounds more like Directional Influence.
 

Conda

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We didn't have to call Airdodges different things in Brawl, even though they worked very differently than in melee.
 
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Big-Cat

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It's kinda weird when Joe Simpleton here (me) understands these concepts perfectly and all of the big bad ultra-tech guys can't grasp them.

Anyway... I asked if it was possible to use this new mechanic AFTER being launched, but still got no reply...
It's one of those things where you can tell if someone is detail oriented or big picture oriented.

I'm not completely sure if you can after being launched. If you can, it's very early in the launch.
 
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