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Using emulation to further our competitive experience

Zantetsu

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
4,413
Location
Springfield, MO
So I was just informed that there is a version of Project 64 1.7 with netplay and once I downloaded it, I found out it's very interesting. There's not netplay option. You just open a rom, it asks you to confirm your active controllers by bringing up the input settings (I'm guessing this means you can have 2 people on the same computer?). After you confirm that, you can either enter an IP to connect to, or host your own. Once people connect or you connect to a host, you confirm and the rom boots up. The guy who told me about this also told me that it never desyncs so I'll have to try that out too. Excuse me if I'm late on this, but I found it interesting.

Also, I'm about to play Multiplayer Zelda Ocarina of Time. So hyped.

Edit: Clubba, I've pretty much dropped the subject of balancing characters. No one wants to do it and I could care less. I'm more focused on stages.
 

The Star King

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
Yeah, it never desyncs, but only on PJ64 1.7. You can use it with other PJs but they desync.

Should replace P2P IMO, but of course this community is always slow at changing the standards :glare:
 

Zantetsu

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
4,413
Location
Springfield, MO
Well, since majority of the codes the chilie people are making only work on Project 1.6/1.7, then maybe I can force the project upon this.
 

Surri-Sama

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,454
Location
Newfoundland, Canada!
Yeah, it never desyncs, but only on PJ64 1.7. You can use it with other PJs but they desync.

Should replace P2P IMO, but of course this community is always slow at changing the standards :glare:
This is a lot harder to set-up then P2P..and im still not fully aware of exactly what happened in terms of legal standings regarding either the emulator or the AQZ (i think thats what it was called) plugin.

If there are truly no issues and no legal problems I'll make a guide as to how to get it working and hopefully we can get people playing this.
 

Zantetsu

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
4,413
Location
Springfield, MO
This is a lot harder to set-up then P2P..and im still not fully aware of exactly what happened in terms of legal standings regarding either the emulator or the AQZ (i think thats what it was called) plugin.

If there are truly no issues and no legal problems I'll make a guide as to how to get it working and hopefully we can get people playing this.
That would be good, because it's really not all that hard to set up. Anyone who has ever done p2p has the capacity to run this.
 

Surri-Sama

Smash Hero
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Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,454
Location
Newfoundland, Canada!
That would be good, because it's really not all that hard to set up. Anyone who has ever done p2p has the capacity to run this.
Yeah, the biggest issue is obviously the legal issues. Again im not sure how people were REALLY meant to obtain this. I've heard it's donation only..and if thats the case we can't make it publicly available.
 

Limaçon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
93
I have 1.7 + AZQ set up now, is there any sort of lobby for establishing games? Also, is there a save file that we can all use (to avoid having to send one each game)?

I am seriously ready to be done with pj64k, so I would really like to start using this.
 

The Star King

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
Direct links to places where ROMs can be downloaded are not allowed here.
I'm don't see how whether it is allowed on this forum or not has to do with anything. My point is that ROMs are illegal, so the legality of the plugin/emulator shouldn't really affect whether it can replace P2P as the standard alternative to playing on the server or not.

I have 1.7 + AZQ set up now, is there any sort of lobby for establishing games? Also, is there a save file that we can all use (to avoid having to send one each game)?
Huh? It's like P2P, where one player hosts and the others connect using the host's IP.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
The legality was about whether or not a guide could be posted on the forum, not about the replacement of p2p.
 

The Star King

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
Posting a direct link to the plugin is one thing, but surely a guide can't be against the forum rules, can it?
 

Limaçon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
93
Huh? It's like P2P, where one player hosts and the others connect using the host's IP.
Yeah, but it would be a lot easier to have an IRC room or the like to actually set up games, that way you aren't only playing people that you already know.

Unless you are referring to my mention of a save file, this says that both players need the same save file to avoid desynching.
 

Surri-Sama

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,454
Location
Newfoundland, Canada!
No.



Uh, ROMs are mostly illegal anyways, so it doesn't really matter.
Not sure where all the confusion came from...

I was under the impression the AQZ / Project64 1.7 was only made available to those who donated to the devs of that plugin / emulator.


As you said...not sure why the legality of roms matters, thats not what we are even talking about

As for it being more complicated to set-up then p2p...yes it is! (aha I've bested you!)

I said harder not impossible....or even challenging at all.

It does however have a few steps and is completely different then what we currently use.


There is no lobby but i think people can "watch" games
 

NTA

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
1,477
Location
(Decatur) Atlanta, GA
This may be the stupidest question ever, but wtf do I do with that large strand of hexidecimal called a cheat? Are there instructions somewhere on how to use these cheats? And if it ends up being really complicated... well then I'm probably not going to deal with it, which is how I think some others must feel as well. That may be one of the problems with the cheats. Or maybe I'm the only GS code illiterate person here (which I wouldn't doubt).

Also, as has been said, its not really convenient when 1p has to select everyone's character for every fight for some of these cheats. Certainly doesn't help spread the use of cheats. If it can be done another way, it should be.

As far as character balance, I just don't think thats gonna fly at all. Think about it, if you nerf kirby, kirby mains aren't gonna wanna play the new version. Same goes for any character you nerf. I agree that more good stages would be great to have, and I don't think anyone could find a reason to be upset at more stages. But changing the characters themselves is actually making a new game, which would just create a rift in the community. And let's face it, we aren't big enough to do that.
Well I think we could still have it as an alternative and to use it occasionally or more than occasionally. :D
 

dandan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,373
i have run it, it works with varied results. i get smoother/less frames with some, and worse connection with others.
 

Limaçon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
93
I finally got 1.7+AZQ working (I think), is there a particular save file that everyone is using, or does that requirement not really matter?
 

Zantetsu

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
4,413
Location
Springfield, MO
Me and Surri just played and we had a hard time staying in sync at the beginning, and even when we got in sync, it started to give us so many lag spikes, it made the overall games choppy as hell. Our guess is that we were using 2 different versions of the emulator because we both had totally different plugins and we got our emulator from 2 different sources.

I would really like to confirm that it was the emulator differences and not just us. If anyone would like to have the emulator, contact me on MSN and we can test it out, using the exact same emulator package.
 

Limaçon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
93
Me and Surri just played and we had a hard time staying in sync at the beginning, and even when we got in sync, it started to give us so many lag spikes, it made the overall games choppy as hell. Our guess is that we were using 2 different versions of the emulator because we both had totally different plugins and we got our emulator from 2 different sources.

I would really like to confirm that it was the emulator differences and not just us. If anyone would like to have the emulator, contact me on MSN and we can test it out, using the exact same emulator package.
Did you both use the same save file? The official site says it will desynch quickly if you don't (which is why I was asking above).
 

Sangoku

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
Messages
3,931
Location
Geneva, Switzerland
Using the same plugin with different emu doesn't work, it insta-ds. The best thing is that one send his emu to the other. And you should use the same savestate too I guess.

:phone:
 

Zantetsu

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
4,413
Location
Springfield, MO
Did you both use the same save file? The official site says it will desynch quickly if you don't (which is why I was asking above).
Not sure if we had the same save file or not, probably not. Didn't know the official site said that

Using the same plugin with different emu doesn't work, it insta-ds.
We got it to work using slightly different plugins.
 

Zantetsu

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,413
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Springfield, MO
Well, since there should be no differences between SSB64 save files other then characters, mushroom kingdom, and item switch, I don't think the saves should really matter if you have the same stuff as your opponent.
 

The Star King

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
Well, since there should be no differences between SSB64 save files other then characters, mushroom kingdom, and item switch, I don't think the saves should really matter if you have the same stuff as your opponent.
Pretty sure it's to make sure you start with the same RNG string as your opponent, or something like that.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
Back to the nados, I have a revolutionary idea. Instead of getting rid of all of the tornados, making hyrule even more of the pew pew gallery it is deteriorating into, what if all 4 tornado locations had tornados on them at all times? Wouldn't that make it a bit harder to camp in one spot or be the mouse in a cat and mouse game? Plus, the randomness of the nados is then eliminated since you know they are always there, and they can be used in combos a lot more often.
 

TheLostHylian

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
31
Location
NC
It really kills me that people aren't curious in the least of the possible things that could be done...

I mean, look at all the Brawl mods. Sure, it's not the same game, and that's exactly how you should view it. I see nothing wrong with experimenting at all. Not like you all would be forced to play it. You NEVER know, you may find it enjoyable.
 

Olikus

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
2,451
Location
Norway
Back to the nados, I have a revolutionary idea. Instead of getting rid of all of the tornados, making hyrule even more of the pew pew gallery it is deteriorating into, what if all 4 tornado locations had tornados on them at all times? Wouldn't that make it a bit harder to camp in one spot or be the mouse in a cat and mouse game? Plus, the randomness of the nados is then eliminated since you know they are always there, and they can be used in combos a lot more often.
Nadoes=bad. Getting rid of them is still the best option.
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
8,740
Location
Chicago
Back to the nados, I have a revolutionary idea. Instead of getting rid of all of the tornados, making hyrule even more of the pew pew gallery it is deteriorating into, what if all 4 tornado locations had tornados on them at all times? Wouldn't that make it a bit harder to camp in one spot or be the mouse in a cat and mouse game? Plus, the randomness of the nados is then eliminated since you know they are always there, and they can be used in combos a lot more often.
No. Can you imagine trying to play around those mother****ers? It would be so much worse than zebes/SZ.
 

Zantetsu

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
4,413
Location
Springfield, MO
Back to the nados, I have a revolutionary idea. Instead of getting rid of all of the tornados, making hyrule even more of the pew pew gallery it is deteriorating into, what if all 4 tornado locations had tornados on them at all times? Wouldn't that make it a bit harder to camp in one spot or be the mouse in a cat and mouse game? Plus, the randomness of the nados is then eliminated since you know they are always there, and they can be used in combos a lot more often.
That would leave a tornado at every location, minus the bottom and top platforms located in the middle, and the top of the green tower. If the stage was originally made like that, NO ONE would have considered it neutral, or even counterpick, in the first place. The tornadoes would interupt how we play the game so much that it would be something Sakurai would like to do to balance the competitve players and casuals. I like how you're approching new ways to do things, but this suggestion... It's just a no-can-do.

If we implemented a timer into our stock matches, it'd be nice to program the tornadoes to come out in a specific order, like for 10 seconds after every minute or something along those lines. Basically the same thing as Randal (The Cloud) on Yoshi's Story in Melee. He works like this (I could have this backwards, but it's close enough):

??:55 / ??:35 / ??:15 = Randal comes out the left side
??:50 / ??:30 / ??:10 = Randal returns into the stage from the left side
??:45 / ??:25 / ??:05 = Randal comes out the ride side
??:40 / ??:20 / ??:00 = Randal returns into the stage from the right side

Hyrule could work in a similar way, like this:

1st/5th/9th minute down = Spawns on 2nd platform
2nd/6th minute down = Spawns on the right side of Hyrule
3rd/7th minute down = Spawns in the center of Hyrule
4th/8th minute down = Spawns on the left side of Hyrule

If I knew the tornado would be at the very left of the stage at 4 minutes down on the clock, then I probably wouldn't try and knock my opponent off the edge in that direction because I have troubles with edgeguarding and dealing with the tornado. If my opponent was attempting to camp on the right side of Hyrule and we're almost at 2 minutes down, then I may choose to camp on the left side to force him out of the situation. If you set the tornado to spawn at specific times that it will always spawn on, then we can start using the tornado as a skill based object instead of that random *** thing that popped up RIGHT when you threw me into it.

It really kills me that people aren't curious in the least of the possible things that could be done...

I mean, look at all the Brawl mods. Sure, it's not the same game, and that's exactly how you should view it. I see nothing wrong with experimenting at all. Not like you all would be forced to play it. You NEVER know, you may find it enjoyable.
Thank you, your post was appreciated.
 

Zantetsu

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
4,413
Location
Springfield, MO
My post is always up for changes. We could remove the Tornado from the 2nd platform and each tornado would spawn 3 times in a full 10 minute match.
 

Olikus

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
2,451
Location
Norway
I dont wanna sound rude, and I try to respect every peoples opinion. But seriously......just get rid of the damn nadoes. It makes things much easier and allot mor fair. Even a timed game hazard is still a game hazard.

Its the same as saying heart and tomatoes should be legal if they spawn on the left platform of DL ever 2nd minute. Just because you know where it is doesnt delete the fact that it is a tool who affects the gameplay.
 

Surri-Sama

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,454
Location
Newfoundland, Canada!
I dont wanna sound rude, and I try to respect every peoples opinion. But seriously......just get rid of the damn nadoes. It makes things much easier and allot mor fair. Even a timed game hazard is still a game hazard.

Its the same as saying heart and tomatoes should be legal if they spawn on the left platform of DL ever 2nd minute. Just because you know where it is doesnt delete the fact that it is a tool who affects the gameplay.
lol CRAAAZY analogy to the rescue!
 
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