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Using emulation to further our competitive experience
- Thread starter Zantetsu
- Start date
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
nados are no where near as destructive as a healer to the game.
kys
Smash Ace
How can you make that statement? Both are extremely situational. Sometimes a tornado might be more destructive, sometimes a healer. It all depends on the chars, percents, positions on the stage, etc.
But that's neither here nor there, tornadoes and items both have no place (timed or not) as others have already said. I wonder how Hyrule would be if you removed the **** tent but left the very top part as a platform?
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
I wonder how it'd be to play another game.
The majority of **** tent combos seem to favor the already high tier characters (pika, fox, falcon especially). Getting rid of it might balance the game more.
Then again DK has badass tent combos, it would suck to get rid of those. I would say no to getting rid of it.
Then again DK has badass tent combos, it would suck to get rid of those. I would say no to getting rid of it.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
The tent is by no means limited to high-tiers. Luigi has great tent combos, probably better than Falcon's. Link has great tent combos. Jiggs can get some easy rebound kills.
Dodging tornadoes is not hard, it's when you're hurled into an offscreen tornado or the tornado severely limits your options (like in recovering) that they become frustrating. The fast tornadoes are even worse.
Dodging tornadoes is not hard, it's when you're hurled into an offscreen tornado or the tornado severely limits your options (like in recovering) that they become frustrating. The fast tornadoes are even worse.
kys
Smash Ace
Hmm I sense a pinch of SALT here? With all of the crazy cockass ideas that have floated around in this thread, simple speculation about removing the **** tent draws ire from Surri?
Practically, this thread is a pretty terrible idea. IMO there's some merit to stage modifications, but that's where I would draw the line. What we really need is some really smart/cool/rich dude to dedicate his or her (who am I kidding? his) time to giving us an emulator that's designed in regards to netplay to reduce ds. That would be ballin'
Jiggs is baaaaaaad in the tent. Gotta get real fancy to kill at the end of 'em (either by ending with a Usmash or some crazy **** or by getting far enough out to rest, which is kinda hard sometimes...)
I would agree that the tent favors high tiers somewhat.
I would agree that the tent favors high tiers somewhat.
Sangoku
Smash Master
kys: I agreed with what you were saying until I read "reduce ds". DS isn't such a problem in my opinion. Delay/lag should be reduced first.
Delay is a function of latency. The only way to reduce it beyond a certain point (which I imagine is reached/nearly reached) is to improve network latency.
DS on the other hand could be theoretically eliminated and the fear of a desynch detracts from the competitive feel for me.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
I guess I'm the only one who thinks removing the tent would be a good idea.
Don't keep the platform. A tiny, high platform like that is just begging for platform camping.
Don't keep the platform. A tiny, high platform like that is just begging for platform camping.
Sangoku
Smash Master
I thought delay and lag were anormally high due to the kaillera thing being badly written?
DS is not a problem for me at all to be honest. As I mostly p2p, it really rarely DS (maybe once out of 3-4 sessions?) and if I play with the AQZ input plugin I've never had a DS yet.
DS is not a problem for me at all to be honest. As I mostly p2p, it really rarely DS (maybe once out of 3-4 sessions?) and if I play with the AQZ input plugin I've never had a DS yet.
You are actually probably right since people report lower lag using AZQ. In which case kaillera is terribly written and we should all switch to 1.7 (which I hope happens). It would be interesting if someone could calculate the minimum delay for a given latency and see how close each netplay comes to it.
I haven't played p2p yet, so my only experience is with servers.
Has anyone who was having problems with AZQ tried using a shared save file? If that is the problem can get a community save file put up in the index?
felipe_9595
Smash Lord
Guys, if you havent noticed, you can SET the delay of the game. WHile you are playing go to Configure control plugin. The default is 8, but if you are playing with a person who lives near, down it to 3 or even 1.
Sangoku
Smash Master
^What's the point of that comment? We know you can "choose" the delay, and the lag will appear accordingly to the delay you chose. In other words you don't choose the delay, you just find the minimum value which makes you not lag.
And yeah, I wonder what the minimum delay would be in theory.
And yeah, I wonder what the minimum delay would be in theory.
Best case would be significantly slower than speed of light because of the amount of information it takes to establish one "frame" of gameplay. Unfortunately I don't know nearly enough network analysis to speculate further than that.
firo
Smash Ace
Delay/frames will not be able to be decreased from their current server/p2p amounts. I am 95% sure of this. The aqz netplay plugin is slower than p2p unless your network is congested. Emulinker is not the best written piece of software but in terms of sending and receiving packets it is about the best it is going to get. To be honest I'm surprised it works as well as it does for the most part. There are limitations in how systems can send and receive packets and any optimization I can't see having enough impact to actually reduce delay. Remember that 1 frame is 17 milliseconds. Your ping to your opponent on p2p is the theoretical limit. You can do the math and discover we are basically there already. Server play works the same way on LAN.
For desynchs the problem is with the emulators. There already is a way to reduce desynchs - its called switching to mupen beta. I've been pushing it for years and there is that message when logging on to the server about it but no one wants to do it. It was hard enough to get people to switch to LAN without it being forced.
For desynchs the problem is with the emulators. There already is a way to reduce desynchs - its called switching to mupen beta. I've been pushing it for years and there is that message when logging on to the server about it but no one wants to do it. It was hard enough to get people to switch to LAN without it being forced.
firo
Smash Ace
Yes, mupen++ is the one to use.
Sangoku
Smash Master
I see, so delay is already almost at the minimum =(. Well we can forget about playing everyone of the globe online. I still wonder about lag, could something be done? I don't play other online game, but does it also lag really bad because someone at your house is browsing?
Unless you have a router that supports Quality of Service. Otherwise high bandwidth applications will kill your latency.
Sangoku
Smash Master
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you say. I don't know what bandwidth, latency or Quality of Service are. I know I know everyone's free to make fun of me.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
Honestly, I don't really know what none of those are, either. TIME TO BE MADE FUN OF
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
Seems like we all have another thing in common.
Latency is the time it takes a packet to travel from one computer to another (usually measured in milliseconds using "ping", a round trip packet).
Bandwidth is the measurement of the amount of data that can be transferred per unit of time (typically expressed in kb, kB, etc).
Quality of Service is a utility that many networking devices (e.g. home/office routers) provide that allow you to give certain traffic priority over other kinds; for instance I give all traffic priority over bittorrent, it doesn't make bittorrent run (much) slower, but QoS keeps it from causing high latency with other traffics.
Wikipedia will have detailed break downs of all those.
[EDIT]: made it easier to read
[EDIT2]: Fixed "packets" to "data"
Sangoku
Smash Master
It's a little clearer, thank you =). I still don't get that part: "for instance I give all traffic priority over bittorrent, it doesn't make bittorrent run (much) slower". If you give all the priority to bittorrent, shouldn't it be faster? Or traffic priority means "send all the traffic jams there"? And how do you know if you have Quality of Service?
clubbadubba
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2011
- Messages
- 4,086
All priority over bittorrent. So everything is more prioritized than bittorent.
What clubba said. Higher priority means that traffic goes through first.
Are you using a router? Nearly all routers support at least rudimentary QoS.
Zantetsu
Smash Master
I've had a long weekend and haven't been able to keep up with this thread, so I'm going to bring up the Tornado discussion again because I felt like I haven't been able to state my opinion. There's a lot of people I could quote, but I decided to just quote Battlecow because he seemed like a good target 
____
As for the router talk, I'm surprised at those of you who didn't know what bandwidth or latency was. I'll admit that I didn't know what Quality of Service was, but bandwidth and latency? Haha, no wonder we have so many ****ty connections on Kaillera
For all we know, if we had a balanced tornado system (like the timed version I discussed earlier), this could help benefit characters that may need the benefit. Sure, we can predict that it's going to just make things annoying or make things more unbalanced, but you will NEVER know unless it's tried. I don't see what's so wrong with a timed tornado. Can you imagine the things you could do with the knowledge of the tornado timing? You can focus on legit tornado KO's because you know when that tornado will spawn, and where it will spawn. It is up to your opponent to know this knowledge to prevent such a situation from happening. It adds a whole knew flavor to the stage and saying that it should be removed instead of thinking of ideas to make it work isn't helping at all. We know the benefits of removing the Tornado, but it's be better for the competitive AND fun experience if we think of ways to make it work. Yes, this thread is about trying to further our competitive experience in this game, but if we got too deep, we'd end up with only Pikachu and a windless Dreamland. So, here are some more ideas I've came up with:
- Has anyone ever thought of weakening the Tornado's strength? I do agree that it's pretty powerful and it could be toned down some. If the Tornado were to be weakened to a state where it doesn't kill as easy as it does now, I think this is something that could work.
- No one has made too many edits to my Tornado system. If it appearing every minute is too much, the timing on that could be changed.
- What about instead of making it weaker, what about having it have a set knock-back to where it doesn't kill anyone, but just helps combos out?
____
As for the router talk, I'm surprised at those of you who didn't know what bandwidth or latency was. I'll admit that I didn't know what Quality of Service was, but bandwidth and latency? Haha, no wonder we have so many ****ty connections on Kaillera
No one wants to win by using stage hazards. No one wants to try to incorporate a tactical knowledge of stage hazards into their game. It should be Player vs. Player.
The bumper on PC? Small thing. We're used to it. Leave it in there. But new, predictable 'nados? **** that.
The bumper on PC? Small thing. We're used to it. Leave it in there. But new, predictable 'nados? **** that.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
Perhaps. Not so sure about "people dont want to incorporate tactical knowledge of stage hazards into their game" Wouldn't the abyss (Blast Zone, DEATH area, what ever) technically count towards this?
If it does not then...
Hyrules nados? Small thing. We're used to it. Leave it in there. But new predictable nados, **** that.
actually bandwith measures the amount of bits available to transfer per second, as different online protocls use different packets, measuring by packets is not really viable.
for those interested, ping is sending an empty ecmp packet getting a packet back from the destination with the amount of time it took to reach.
just for general knowledge, there used to be an attack based on ping called the ping of doom, sending a ecmp packets that are not empty and overloading stacks in servers causing them to crash.
for the "we are at the limit of delay" argument, it is true for today standarts, but the time needed can and will change, as more fiber optics lines will be spread out, and faster packet handling systems are created. however, there is a limit of course, fiber optics transfers information using light, so you could think it can do 7 and a bit rotations of the earth per second, however, fiber optics uses the light bouncing off the edge of the fiber, which slows down the transfer (still amazingly quick).
but you can calculate the lowest it can ever be, if hypothetically it will be straight light line, and will not need servers to transfer data between them, take the distance between the two points in kms, divide it by about 300000 which is the light speed in km/s and you will get the minimum. after that you just need to add all the other stuff bogging it down, and you will see we are not very far away today.
for those interested, ping is sending an empty ecmp packet getting a packet back from the destination with the amount of time it took to reach.
just for general knowledge, there used to be an attack based on ping called the ping of doom, sending a ecmp packets that are not empty and overloading stacks in servers causing them to crash.
for the "we are at the limit of delay" argument, it is true for today standarts, but the time needed can and will change, as more fiber optics lines will be spread out, and faster packet handling systems are created. however, there is a limit of course, fiber optics transfers information using light, so you could think it can do 7 and a bit rotations of the earth per second, however, fiber optics uses the light bouncing off the edge of the fiber, which slows down the transfer (still amazingly quick).
but you can calculate the lowest it can ever be, if hypothetically it will be straight light line, and will not need servers to transfer data between them, take the distance between the two points in kms, divide it by about 300000 which is the light speed in km/s and you will get the minimum. after that you just need to add all the other stuff bogging it down, and you will see we are not very far away today.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
Well, I knew the gist of what bandwidth and latency are but I wasn't completely sure. I'm secretly technologically impaired, anyways.As for the router talk, I'm surprised at those of you who didn't know what bandwidth or latency was. I'll admit that I didn't know what Quality of Service was, but bandwidth and latency? Haha, no wonder we have so many ****ty connections on Kaillera
Lets just face it. Me and battlecow is right on this one. Ive used all my other arguments
thats some answer =)
Ah sorry, I meant bits rather than packets (I should read my own posts more carefully).
Wouldn't fiber be slower than copper? IIRC light through fiber travels somewhere close to .5*c whereas copper is almost negligibly close to c. On top of that I imagine all of the signal processing for both has a higher latency variance than the difference between the two. And isn't most of the distance already on a fiber backhaul (for most locations at least)?
*off to learn more about networking*
[EDIT]: I do wonder if denser networking will lead to more efficient routing which would drop latencies. I'm not sure how close to "as the crow flies" data moves now, anyone know of some information on that?