Using emulation to further our competitive experience

[Zantetsu]

Smash 64 has been around for almost 12 years now, with online play going on for around 8. For the most part, the game's competitive rules haven't been changed much, even with the recent 64BR ruleset. Now, looking at how the game is played on both console and online, there isn't many differences. Sure, you've got all the bull**** added to the online aspect, but the game itself isn't any different. People complain, including me, over the differences of online and offline and we try to make it as close to console as possible, but is that the direction we should be looking in?

After 8 years of Kaillera, the only thing I've noticed that has helped our online play become more like console is P2P and computers/internet connections being upgraded. At the rate that it's going, this game is never going to be like console, especially with all of the different controllers/keyboards with broken DI. Even if the game became like console, majority of us don't travel and play with other Smash 64 players for it to even matter. What I'm trying to say is, this game isn't going to be like console, and it never will. So why don't we take advantage of what we CAN get out of this, and apply our emulation benefits to make the game more competitive.

What do I mean by this? I'm talking about hacks, mostly. Gameshark codes, possibly even rom edits. The possibilities are endless. That's exactly what this thread is for. Discussing what we can do to SSB64 to make it a more competitive game. Here are a few ideas I've had:

• Replace the useless stages

We have 3 Neutrals and 1 Counterpick. To me, this is pretty awful. Wouldn't it be possible to apply a gameshark code to redirect stages that aren't used (Sector Z, Mushroom Kingdom) to stages like Battlefield and Metal Mario's stage? Forgive me if I'm stupid, but I don't see what's stopping these stages from being Neutrals or Counterpicks if stages like Kongo Jungle and Peach's Castle are legal.

• Turn off stage hazards

This mostly applies to Hyrule Castle for me, but could also apply to other stages as well (Dreamland's wind, Peach's Castle's bumper). We already have the gameshark codes for it, so why don't we apply it? I think it would make a stage more equal if it was removed entirely.

• Balance the game

This is something that I won't defend too much, mostly because it alters with the way we already know the game, but what if we did make some edits to characters to balance them out? I'm not looking to change any movesets or anything, but mostly add different attributes to moves. Such as giving Samus and Link's recoveries more distance, or making Jigglypuff a bit heavier. I'm not asking for those exact things, but they're just samples of what we could do to make the game a bit more balanced.

• Applying codes straight to the rom

If we were to do any of these things, we'd end up with more gameshark codes then we have now. But if we applied the codes straight to the rom, and distributed (not through smashboards, but through other ways) the rom as something different so we can't get paired up with those who don't have it and if we got the majority to use "Super Smash Bros (U) (!) Competitive Edition" rather then the normal "Super Smash Bros (U) (!)", then we wouldn't have to worry about all of the codes.

I'm up for discussing either one of these topics that I've brought up, as well as discussing what you might have in mind. If there's more people who are interested in this other then me, then this might just become step 1 of a whole new way we do online SSB64.

Now, DISCUSS!

 

[asianaussie]

so...you're saying that instead of trying to make this game console-like, we should actually drift in the other direction and change the game to be more balanced...im meh on the idea, might try it if it falls through but ill probably just go back to vanilla

samus' recovery has huge horizontal distance and her ledge grab range makes up for the short up-b somewhat...i see you said these aren't the exact changes you want, but it seems like you're just trying to make this game more like melee...

battlefield has stupid ledges or something
metal mario is a huge pain to get working and has ******** dimensions, but if you want to get it going then sure

 

[KnitePhox]

if you can apply codes to a rom that would be SO godly for not only the reasons you said but also for when the n64 flashcart comes out...the possibilities!

 

[Zantetsu]

samus' recovery has huge horizontal distance and her ledge grab range makes up for the short up-b somewhat...i see you said these aren't the exact changes you want, but it seems like you're just trying to make this game more like melee...

I'm not trying to make the game more like melee. That's just what you think I'm trying to do by the changes I suggested. That's why I wouldn't recommend myself to make these "balance" changes, because my mindset would make me recommend melee-like things since that's my primary game. My true goal isn't to make this like melee at all.

battlefield has stupid ledges or something

Peach's castle doesn't even have ledges to grab onto. Stupid ledges > No ledges.

metal mario is a huge pain to get working and has ******** dimensions, but if you want to get it going then sure

It's a pain to get working? Since when? I remember it working just fine because when I first started smash in 06, I played on that stage a LOT as Kirby. Now that I look back on it, I know why I liked it so much, haha. As for the dimensions, I agree, but some things you just have to adjust to. We don't have any "small" stages, so why not one? (2 if you include battlefield.)

 

[Olikus]

I approve game hazrads turn off. Without lava zebes could be cool. And the tornadoes are the most annoying stuff in this game by a large margin. It stops me from even thinking on hyrule as a competitive stage.

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah, people play on FD and BF sometimes. I enjoy it once in a while. LoD's are stupid though.

In my tourney I said they could be considered neutrals/CP's if people wanted.

I like the way the game is now. There's really no improving to be done in my mind. Less lag/DS/whatever would be nice, but changing the fundamental game sounds LAME to me.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I like the way the game is now. There's really no improving to be done in my mind. Less lag/DS/whatever would be nice, but changing the fundamental game sounds LAME to me.

This is correct. IMO

 

[The Star King]

I agree with Battlecow. One thing I've always wanted to see, though, is creating a timer cheat somehow. There's already a time mode, so maybe you take the timer from that or something? IDK anything about creating cheats so I don't know if it's possible.

 

[Olikus]

I dont see how removing tornadoes and getting more playable stages is LAME. Guess im weird.

 

[The Star King]

You can already remove tornadoes easily with cheats, and nobody does it. Just saying.

 

[Olikus]

You can already remove tornadoes easily with cheats, and nobody does it. Just saying.

I know. I was more talking about the everything is perfect attitude. Why be so konservative when its things that can be better. Im not talking about drastical changes just small but yet important stuff.

 

[The Star King]

I have to admit that it's kind of dumb to have a "everything is perfect" mentality, but I still don't want this game to be changed (in terms of character balance, I might be OK with stages or whatever). I can't really justify it, though.

 

[Zantetsu]

And the tornadoes are the most annoying stuff in this game by a large margin. It stops me from even thinking on hyrule as a competitive stage.

I believe the same thing. Multiple games lost to being thrown into random tornado's, as well as multiple games won due to throwing my opponents in random tornado's. Lol.

Yeah, people play on FD and BF sometimes. I enjoy it once in a while. LoD's are stupid though.

LoD's?

In my tourney I said they could be considered neutrals/CP's if people wanted.

That would be the best way to start pushing the stages to be legal, and maybe influence someone to make a code to forward certain stages to them. At the very least, this could be implemented.

I like the way the game is now. There's really no improving to be done in my mind. Less lag/DS/whatever would be nice, but changing the fundamental game sounds LAME to me.

This game, like melee, has aged to me. They both are getting to be a bit repetitive and the only thing that keeps me going in these games is the fact that I can still improve. I don't see the downside of replacing a few stages.

I agree with Battlecow. One thing I've always wanted to see, though, is creating a timer cheat somehow. There's already a time mode, so maybe you take the timer from that or something? IDK anything about creating cheats so I don't know if it's possible.

Well since there is timers in ssb64, I could see it being possible to add one into vs mode. IIRC, the timers in the game count up? If that's the case, then maybe the timer cheat would count up, until it reaches 99:99, and then reset, which wouldn't be too big of a problem because we could watch for the 10 minute mark.

If the counter were to count down, the person developing the code would have to find out how to make the counter count down, as well as changing it to 10 minutes, and figuring out what the game would do once it reaches 00:00. It would probably be easier to just program a code to count up so you don't have to worry about all of the other things highlighted in yellow.

 

[Olikus]

I have to admit that it's kind of dumb to have a "everything is perfect" mentality, but I still don't want this game to be changed (in terms of character balance, I might be OK with stages or whatever). I can't really justify it, though.

Seems we somewhat agrees then. Im not up for changing caratchers either.

 

[The Star King]

LoD's?

Ledges of Death.

Well since there is timers in ssb64, I could see it being possible to add one into vs mode. IIRC, the timers in the game count up? If that's the case, then maybe the timer cheat would count up, until it reaches 99:99, and then reset, which wouldn't be too big of a problem because we could watch for the 10 minute mark.

If the counter were to count down, the person developing the code would have to find out how to make the counter count down, as well as changing it to 10 minutes, and figuring out what the game would do once it reaches 00:00. It would probably be easier to just program a code to count up so you don't have to worry about all of the other things highlighted in yellow.

The timer counts down. I was thinking of using the menu (when it's time mode) to change the amount of time, then switching to stock, and somehow combine those two with a cheat. It would be nice if we could make it so that the game gave the win to whoever has a lead when the timer reaches 0, but it doesn't matter because we can just see for ourselves who the winner is, just like in Melee or Brawl.

 

[Battlecow]

I wouldn't mind hax that changed, say, Sector Z to BF and MK to FD. I would even support them being CP stages (Kongo has LoD's, and it's neutral, for chrissake).

 

[ciaza]

I personally don't want to see each stage variable removed, like the tornadoes on Hyrule or the wind on Dreamland. It's really hard for me to justify though, because they are just that, a variable. I just can't see the game being the same without them though. They make the game more fun and enjoyable, creating some epic moments.

 

[Olikus]

I personally don't want to see each stage variable removed, like the tornadoes on Hyrule or the wind on Dreamland. It's really hard for me to justify though, because they are just that, a variable. I just can't see the game being the same without them though. They make the game more fun and enjoyable, creating some epic moments.

I find the tornadoes really annoying. However I dont care that much about it in friendlies(which is what I play 99 percent of the time at kaillera). May have to do with that I dont play much hyrule in friendlies anyways though.

But you saying your okay with tornadoes in competitive play?



>__________>

 

[Zantetsu]

Ledges of Death.



The timer counts down. I was thinking of using the menu (when it's time mode) to change the amount of time, then switching to stock, and somehow combine those two with a cheat. It would be nice if we could make it so that the game gave the win to whoever has a lead when the timer reaches 0, but it doesn't matter because we can just see for ourselves who the winner is, just like in Melee or Brawl.

Wow, I'm stupid. I forgot that there was a timer mode for vs. I was only thinking of 1p's timers LOL

Your theory seems to fit better.

I wouldn't mind hax that changed, say, Sector Z to BF and MK to FD. I would even support them being CP stages (Kongo has LoD's, and it's neutral, for chrissake).

I wouldn't mind if BF and FD were neutral instead of counterpick. Unless LoD's have some sort of glitch to them, then they're nothing more than another obstacle you can learn from. I'm pretty sure Mew2king picked battlefield in melee as a counterpick a lot, one of his reasons being that he knew how to use the ledges very well. I would like to what kind of tricks we can do with battlefields thin ledges. Who knows, characters who need benefits could benefit from it.

I personally don't want to see each stage variable removed, like the tornadoes on Hyrule or the wind on Dreamland. It's really hard for me to justify though, because they are just that, a variable. I just can't see the game being the same without them though. They make the game more fun and enjoyable, creating some epic moments.

To me, the wind isn't such a big deal. I wouldn't mind if it stayed, especially if we somehow made battlefield neutral, because then we would already have a non-hazard stage with close to the same layout.

Yes, these hazards can "make the game more fun and enjoyable, creating some epic moments", but when you look at it from a competitive standpoint, they're just annoying. You might think it's fun when you're thrown into a tornado after a cool combo by a friend in friendlies, but if that happened in a finals match, you'd probably be upset over the fact that you lost over a stage hazard.

I'm perfectly fine with everyone playing with the hazards on, but for online tournaments, there's no reason to not have a rule that says they must be off unless both players agree that they're on.

EDIT:

I find the tornadoes really annoying. However I dont care that much about it in friendlies(which is what I play 99 percent of the time at kaillera). May have to do with that I dont play much hyrule in friendlies anyways though.

But you saying your okay with tornadoes in competitive play?



>__________>

This post was made as I was typing my other one. He basically said everything I did for my last quote, haha.

 

[The Star King]

I'm okay with tornadoes in competitive play. Only the tornado on the second platform angers me, the others are fine most of the time.

 

[Olikus]

I'm okay with tornadoes in competitive play. Only the tornado on the second platform angers me, the others are fine most of the time.

The mainproblem is that it can affect the outcome of the match. Sure often you can dodge them, but they will at some point take you/come out suddenly or stop you from recovering safely.

In friendlies who cares, but in competitive play they shouldnt be throwing you around.

 

[Battlecow]

I hate nados, get rid of them forever is what I say.

Wind is less of a problem.

Melee doesn't have ledge DI (I think?), so the way they do LoD's is irrelevant.

 

[Zantetsu]

Melee doesn't have ledge DI (I think?), so the way they do LoD's is irrelevant.

****, I didn't even think of ledge DI. You're completely right, I need to get my head out of melee when I'm thinking of this >_>

 

[asianaussie]

*smacked out of **** tent by a yoshi u-smash or something*
'yes imma survive this, time to space more'
*tornado on second hyrule plat*

brb paint raging

 

[ballin4life]

who cares about ledge DI

 

[Battlecow]

Me

I just got good at that R(everse)LDI **** accidentally

Did it like 5 times in this one match.

 

[ciaza]

I'm 100% fine with tornadoes in competitive play. It seems like this is going down the track of the 2nd Great Smashboards War on whether or not Z-cancelling should be in Brawl 64. Competitively yeah it doesn't make much sense to include it, but to me it just wouldn't be SSB without it.

 

[Battlecow]

The difference being that getting rid of nados wouldn't change the game on a fundamental level.

And that most of us are pissed off by them rather than irrationally attached to them.

 

[asianaussie]

I'm 100% fine with tornadoes in competitive play. It seems like this is going down the track of the 2nd Great Smashboards War on whether or not Z-cancelling should be in Brawl 64. Competitively yeah it doesn't make much sense to include it, but to me it just wouldn't be SSB without it.

so in other words there is no logic behind your reasoning

tornadoes are more an annoyance than anything, ill play the game with or without them

 

[ciaza]

I'm more than happy to admit that my attachment to tornadoes is somewhat arbitrary.

 

[cheeseball341]

Fun Fact: The "tornado" is actually a bird.

 

[Zantetsu]

Fun Fact: The "tornado" is actually a bird.

No, it's actually Metaknight.

On topic: The only reason I don't turn off tornado's in my games are because they're not in the official ruleset and I feel that people will ***** if I do so. Anyone else on my page?

 

[asianaussie]

I wrote the official ruleset and I'll still turn tornadoes off without anyone else's consent.

Screw tornadoes.

 

[felipe_9595]

Smash 64 has been around for almost 12 years now, with online play going on for around 8. For the most part, the game's competitive rules haven't been changed much, even with the recent 64BR ruleset. Now, looking at how the game is played on both console and online, there isn't many differences. Sure, you've got all the bull**** added to the online aspect, but the game itself isn't any different. People complain, including me, over the differences of online and offline and we try to make it as close to console as possible, but is that the direction we should be looking in?

After 8 years of Kaillera, the only thing I've noticed that has helped our online play become more like console is P2P and computers/internet connections being upgraded. At the rate that it's going, this game is never going to be like console, especially with all of the different controllers/keyboards with broken DI. Even if the game became like console, majority of us don't travel and play with other Smash 64 players for it to even matter. What I'm trying to say is, this game isn't going to be like console, and it never will. So why don't we take advantage of what we CAN get out of this, and apply our emulation benefits to make the game more competitive.

What do I mean by this? I'm talking about hacks, mostly. Gameshark codes, possibly even rom edits. The possibilities are endless. That's exactly what this thread is for. Discussing what we can do to SSB64 to make it a more competitive game. Here are a few ideas I've had:

• Replace the useless stages

We have 3 Neutrals and 1 Counterpick. To me, this is pretty awful. Wouldn't it be possible to apply a gameshark code to redirect stages that aren't used (Sector Z, Mushroom Kingdom) to stages like Battlefield and Metal Mario's stage? Forgive me if I'm stupid, but I don't see what's stopping these stages from being Neutrals or Counterpicks if stages like Kongo Jungle and Peach's Castle are legal.

• Turn off stage hazards

This mostly applies to Hyrule Castle for me, but could also apply to other stages as well (Dreamland's wind, Peach's Castle's bumper). We already have the gameshark codes for it, so why don't we apply it? I think it would make a stage more equal if it was removed entirely.

• Balance the game

This is something that I won't defend too much, mostly because it alters with the way we already know the game, but what if we did make some edits to characters to balance them out? I'm not looking to change any movesets or anything, but mostly add different attributes to moves. Such as giving Samus and Link's recoveries more distance, or making Jigglypuff a bit heavier. I'm not asking for those exact things, but they're just samples of what we could do to make the game a bit more balanced.

• Applying codes straight to the rom

If we were to do any of these things, we'd end up with more gameshark codes then we have now. But if we applied the codes straight to the rom, and distributed (not through smashboards, but through other ways) the rom as something different so we can't get paired up with those who don't have it and if we got the majority to use "Super Smash Bros (U) (!) Competitive Edition" rather then the normal "Super Smash Bros (U) (!)", then we wouldn't have to worry about all of the codes.

I'm up for discussing either one of these topics that I've brought up, as well as discussing what you might have in mind. If there's more people who are interested in this other then me, then this might just become step 1 of a whole new way we do online SSB64.

Now, DISCUSS!

Blue: DONE Nokaubure created a code to change the SSS, youc an even choose the music for the stage

RED: DONE they have been out for YEArs xD

Yellow: "DONE". Have you seen our PSA?? (Melee link, Melee Falcon, Ultra Mario, ultra Samus??) we can modify the attacks animations and his hitboxes so is very easy to balance the game

 

[Zantetsu]

I wrote the official ruleset and I'll still turn tornadoes off without anyone else's consent.

Screw tornadoes.

Then maybe you could discuss an alternative ruleset in the backroom for online play specifically? Online play really deserves it's own ruleset, since 90% of SSB64 tournaments are hosted online. With the current ruleset, it makes it to where the console version is holding the online version back from it's full potential, when it shouldn't if there's so many more online tournaments then offline.

Blue: DONE Nokaubure created a code to change the SSS, youc an even choose the music for the stage

RED: DONE they have been out for YEArs xD

Yellow: "DONE". Have you seen our PSA?? (Melee link, Melee Falcon, Ultra Mario, ultra Samus??) we can modify the attacks animations and his hitboxes so is very easy to balance the game

For the love of god, there was no need to quote my entire post >_>

Blue: I'd love to see this code. Can you link it to me?

Red: I know it's been done. But they haven't been applied as much as I believe they should.

Yellow: Yes, I've seen your PSA, but that doesn't necessarily balance the game whatsoever. Yes, you guys have the ability to do this, but actually balancing everyone is far from "done"

 

[asianaussie]

Could just mention that 'turning off tornadoes is recommended, especially online, and left up to the TO', as you can just use a gameshark irl

very easy to balance the game

:teranchu:

 

[Battlecow]

I'd like to keep online and offline as identical as possible. It's not really "fake smash," and you know it- I, for one, still see online as a method of playing a great game rather than a different game.

So no different rulesets lol.

 

[Zantetsu]

Could just mention that 'turning off tornadoes is recommended, especially online, and left up to the TO', as you can just use a gameshark irl

That would be even better.

I'd like to keep online and offline as identical as possible. It's not really "fake smash," and you know it- I, for one, still see online as a method of playing a great game rather than a different game.

So no different rulesets lol.

They're the same game, but why does the console version have to keep the online one from giving it benefits?

 

[Battlecow]

So that people don't start viewing them as separate games.

 

[clubbadubba]

my biggest problem with nados, and any stage hazard really, is that you often don't see them coming. If the camera zoomed out whenever a nado appeared so that you could see it, I'd be perfectly fine with them. I wonder if a cheat like that would be possible.