• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

*UPDATED* Sonic Stage/Counterpick Discussion *Discuss PS1 + New BF Rewrite*

Kinzer

Mammy
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
10,397
Location
Las Vegas, NV
NNID
Kinzer
3DS FC
2251-6533-0581
Perhaps I don't remember correctly, but don't the lips on the 3rd transformation actually work in the same way FD's lip does...?

For some really I really dislike the stage's 2nd transformation. Something about the wrong mix of the top platform, uneven terrain, and the main platform not having a whole solid level that can't be passed through. Characters like Meta Knight (perhaps only him) can make sharking really annoying due to the raised platform not being high enough to keep you safe like the lift-off portion on Delfino Plaza's is. That may be character-dependent/personal preference, but I just really don't like it that much if people are being unusually campy. For edgegaurding, I believe Sonic is unaffected. Recovery-wise, there's different options. You know how you can Walljump off the walls of FD, BF, and Yoshi's Isle (Brawl); well here if you find recovering normally a pain, you're now given the option to come from below and play accordingly. You shouldn't ever feel you'll end up short, Spring Jump goes really high.

Meh, I didn't go over the first transformation first, but since it's only on the stage for like 15 seconds and never comes up again, it's not that important... Just, don't be on the ground when the platform takes off obviously... If you manage to get a grab in the last seconds of take-off, Down-Throw. Yes, your opponent can tech it, yes you can die as a result, but the worst case scenario is that you ans your opponent both lose a stock, or your opponent has a quicker option than you out of a tech and hits you into the air with it, thus resulting in anything but a death. Best case scenario is that you get a major lead, always appreciated...

I love the third transformation. There's a lot of ground to work with, and camping is reduced in some way thanks to the hazards. We have the Combo Cannon, the Bomb, and the Claw to work with. the Claw is unpredictable and goes for whoever it wants to, meaning if you're not prepared you can get hit. There is, however, a lot of warning time, so you should be able to see it coming 95% of the time (the remaining 5% is due to you being very preoccupied from the opponent, or you and your opponent being on the right side, and out of sight of the claw) and either dodge or shield it.

The Combo Cannon is the giant laser that puts a cursor on somebody and follows you for some time until it stops to fire. If you're caught in it, you can SDI out of it. If your opponent is caught in it, follow their DI and attack them out of the cannon. If you can't do that, then probably they didn't SDI enough and will get sent flying away, in which case either let them do so, or hit them with an aerial follow-up. :) If an opponent is being obnoxiously campy and you have the lazer pointing at you, just charge at them when it's about to fire, something will have to happen then.

Then you have the giant bomb. Not as much warning time as the other hazards, and where it drops will be unpredictable; but you should still be able to see it coming and dodge as it's coming down. If you're given the opportunity, throw your opponents towards the bomb, again, get in any extra damage you can, it may just be the deciding factoron who wins.

There's a lot of flat ground to move around on (did I mention that already?), and although I may be wrong on this, you can get stuck under the lips, but nothing you're not already used to (assuming your a FD fanatic). Edgeguarding is made easy here since it's a one of two ways opponents will recover: One being over the ledge, the other shooting for the ledge. If you can cover the ledge, they'll have no choice but to overshoot, and you'll be in perfect position to attack them coming back down.

As for character counterpicks, I would avoid taking characters who have an easier time killing vertically. Examples would be Luigi and Snake. I'm not sure who I would recommend counterpicking here, but Sonic should go even or have a slight favor against everybody else. Specifically Meta Knight is a gamble, if you're feeling confident/lucky, then by all means take him here, but if you can go to Final Destination, I would pick that stage over Halberd any day...

That's my report for now.
 

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,287
Location
The Netherlands
Just letting you know, my 1st transformation is Kinzer 2nd, my 2nd is Kinzers 3rd.

The first part on the flat ground before liftoff doesnt count, just run away in that part.
Also, FD has much more horrible lips, these lips are like 10 times the size of FD, much more room to play around off-stage and extremely easy stage-spikes.
 

Camalange

Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
9,420
Location
Seattle
NNID
Camalange
3DS FC
1160-9836-5007
Switch FC
SW-4197-1438-9208
i either ban norfair or lylat against snake. never halberd. i always beat snakes on halberd for some reason.

good discussion so far guize

:093:
 

chaoechidna

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
188
Location
Orange County, NY
Hey camal, is there a reason you always beat snakes there? Like is there some special property, or do you have some special techniques or tips for beating snakes there? Or is it just like one of those things, you've never lost to a snake there yet and you continue to pick it for that reason?
 

Camalange

Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
9,420
Location
Seattle
NNID
Camalange
3DS FC
1160-9836-5007
Switch FC
SW-4197-1438-9208
well, i just like the stage I guess @_@

so far, every situation has been like the following.

"What do you ban?" - "Um...Norfair I guess."
Friend - "Why wouldn't you ban Halberd?"
"I don't know, I just that stage."
*Snake player starts thinking*
"Well, I'll stick with Snake and take you to Halberd anyway. What could Sonic possibly have on that stage?"

Then they lose. idk, I'm just really familiar with it. I think Sonic has enough going for him there. I wouldn't advise trying to shark under the stage because Snake still has explosion errwhere and stage control in that aspect. The low cieling is the main reason why I like it. I mean, sure, that helps Snake a lot with Utilt, but if you can just abuse Snake in the air on that stage, it's not too difficult imo. This is against good Snakes in my area too, being dextasmurf and takeover.

:093:
 

chaoechidna

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
188
Location
Orange County, NY
Hmm, yea i forgot about the low ceiling, that should prob be good for uair kills on snake since his aerial movement is terrible. Thanks for the info man! Btw, are those Scranton monthlies open to all players, or just the PA players? I'm not sure if you know or not...
 

Khaoz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
207
Location
Denton,TX/Aiken,SC
I personally like to take Marths here (to Halberd)...

To me, it feels easier to keep him off of the stage here and I feel that it pressures his recovery a bit...
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
Is there any chance we can revive this thread (or make a new one if the OP isn't around) and redicuss the stages in the MLG ruleset. I don't see any information in the OP about PS2, Picto and Norfait, and maybe we can look at Green Greens again.

Starter Stages

Battlefield
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island

Counter-Pick Stages

Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Norfair
Pictochat
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise.

There haven't been many relevant mentions in this thread in more than half a year. So maybe we can get a fresher look at things now. I like the MLG list alot btw.
 

Dark 3nergy

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
6,389
Location
Baltimore, MD
NNID
Gambit.7
3DS FC
4313-0369-9934
Switch FC
SW-5498-4166-5599
Green Greens will be awesome for Sonic in MLG. But arent there other characters that are also beast on that stage?

Theres also a couple of gay/lucky factors to consider with green greens. Namely the WALL OF FIRE glitch, getting spiked by bombs, or setting them off with a hitbox...then theres also apples and gusts of wind from the tree if that deeply hurts anyones feelings.
 

JayBee

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
2,173
Location
Green Hill Zone, MD/VA
NNID
jamesbrownjrva
I dont mind. It's a nice change of pace, in all honesty its not as bad as people make it out to be, compared to what else is usually banned, since standing infinites are banned, right?
 

Dark 3nergy

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
6,389
Location
Baltimore, MD
NNID
Gambit.7
3DS FC
4313-0369-9934
Switch FC
SW-5498-4166-5599
as far as i know wall infinites are still in...which includes but isnt limited to dtilt/jabs

MLG banned the standing[no walls] infinites DDD has on weegee/mario/samus/DK/bowser and Marths long CG/infinite on Lucas/Ness last time i checked a few days back

Let me put it this way..if you get caught in a wall infinite on Green Greens as sonic, a fresh bthrow should kill him after hes high enough damage wise. Not sure if bthrow will kill inside the 2 walls facing on the inside of the stage, outside you dont wanna get caught in those walls

However, you also have the option of destorying the blocks as well so they do not form a wall
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
Just to clarify, what is the exploding apple occurrence? I was playing the stage yesterday and one of the apples exploded as it fell. Is that what people have been complaining about for so long? Or do normal apples just randomly explode.

Even with the ease of destroying the bottom blocks, I don't think you would want to face a DDD on this stage anyway. Does the gust of wind have any effect on the spacing of relevant wall locks?

Up smash, Spring and Side B are great for destroying blocks unharmed.

I have heard this is a "bad" stage for metaknight, does anyone know why that is? Aside from food and bombs disrupting planking, it seems like a good place for metaknight anyway.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
GG used to be bad for mk cause he dies off the sides at 60 and off the top at 85.

but than people realised, aerial shuttle loop kills off the sides at 45 and grounded kills off the top at 100...
 

Kinzer

Mammy
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
10,397
Location
Las Vegas, NV
NNID
Kinzer
3DS FC
2251-6533-0581
Apples can sometimes be explosive.

And of course MK is retardedly good on this stage, I wouldn't CP him there.
 

Kinzer

Mammy
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
10,397
Location
Las Vegas, NV
NNID
Kinzer
3DS FC
2251-6533-0581
Just because MK doesn't get as much from a stage as other characters do doesn't mean he isn't gay on them. D:
 

Camalange

Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
9,420
Location
Seattle
NNID
Camalange
3DS FC
1160-9836-5007
Switch FC
SW-4197-1438-9208
I feel like Snake could Utilt kill you at like, 30% on Green Greens, lol.

Eh, I'm not doing such a hot job with this thread anymore. If someone wants to re-make/takeover this thread, I will allow it.

:093:
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
Just because MK doesn't get as much from a stage as other characters do doesn't mean he isn't gay on them. D:
This stage and Norfair are the only stages that G&W actually stands a chance against MK.
That says quite alot.
The characters benefit ALOT more than MK.


@Camalange: he will kill you around 87%. Just like on halberd.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
Well there is bound to be a little bit of food in each match, as well as some nice throwing items for sonic. I don't get what GnW does better than everyone else here, aside from hiding behind a destructible wall and killing off the top early.

I know having to approach GnW from above is bad, but thats how it is vs alot of characters.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
No one actually has to approach from the top though, you can safely destroy the blocks with metaknight, snake, the rest of mid-high tier and approach from the sides normally(almost).

So is there anything that helps Sonic here more than an opponent he might be facing. The OP shows it was a good Sonic stage, but that's like saying Sonic has a good matchup with Ganondorf. Who doesn't?

First of all, you can't even gimp people on this stage. Most of the cast has the option of just airdodging past the ledge and recovering into into an area with 2 ledges so you can't edgehog. However, due to the close blast zones, 1 slip up will cost you a stock just like everyone else, regardless of how good your recovery is.

Secondly, everyone who kills earlier than sonic will still kill earlier than sonic. With less time to momentum cancel, some will kill ALOT earlier than Sonic.

Is it worth counterpicking any character here?
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
No one actually has to approach from the top though, you can safely destroy the blocks with metaknight, snake, the rest of mid-high tier and approach from the sides normally(almost).

So is there anything that helps Sonic here more than an opponent he might be facing. The OP shows it was a good Sonic stage, but that's like saying Sonic has a good matchup with Ganondorf. Who doesn't?

First of all, you can't even gimp people on this stage. Most of the cast has the option of just airdodging past the ledge and recovering into into an area with 2 ledges so you can't edgehog. However, due to the close blast zones, 1 slip up will cost you a stock just like everyone else, regardless of how good your recovery is.

Secondly, everyone who kills earlier than sonic will still kill earlier than sonic. With less time to momentum cancel, some will kill ALOT earlier than Sonic.

Is it worth counterpicking any character here?
Primarily because they are at heavy risk to brak the blocks in such a manner since they would get turtle'd and in suhc a position, DI wont be able to get you out of it(or at least not ina way you can punish G&W).
It also has multiple ledges to allow him to stall upon and because of that, even MK can have issues dealing with the 2D*******.

So now if you approach from the side, there is an added risk to it.

Sonic primarily gains from the stage due to his ability to fluidly break through blocks without harm and just make incredible use of his mobility to an extreme degree.
He can ACTUALLY kill there as well, and the multiple ledges allow Sonic to play keep away even more.

Primarily, it improves his defensive and rewards his offensive ability based on how you interact with the stage.

Primarily, for GG, your interaction determines how things go, and I do thinkSonic can do well on this stage.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
Does anyone know what causes the various bomb block glitches on this stage? I'm referring to the invisible explosion wall ( I know how to get rid of it, but not how to cause it) . As well as bombs sometimes not harming people when they explode (I sweetspotted a knee on one with falcon yesterday and I was unharmed).

Also, it should be noted that if a block is partially blocking one of the middle ledges, sometimes the ledgegrab will be cancelled and you will just fall (without invincibility?). I think this refreshes your jumps though. Its much more common with large character that can't fit apparently.

You can spike people by throwing them into a ceiling of blocks.

Discuss PS1 Brawl now?
 

Kinzer

Mammy
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
10,397
Location
Las Vegas, NV
NNID
Kinzer
3DS FC
2251-6533-0581
As far as I know, to blow up bombblocks unscathed you have to perfectly space hitboxes (or just make sure your hurtbox doesn't come in contact with the hitbox from the explosion... easier said than done with moves that have no range/disjoint.) or abuse invincibility frames on moves.
 
Top Bottom