(Update) Aerial C-Stick Issues +*Workaround*

[EdreesesPieces]

This has been making me play really bad. It's going to take some getting used to. Probably weeks....I've been holding the c stick for 10 years, hard to correct a habit like that. Especially when I fast fall fairs while moving backward in the heat of the moment under the stage, just takes one time to forgot and I get in a real bad position.

 

[Dissent]

Really? There's a timer on how long you have to be in neutral position now, too. Sighkurai

Edit: it is impossible for me to spam back air as Diddy with this why do you hurt the ones you love sakurai

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Really? There's a timer on how long you have to be in neutral position now, too. Sighkurai

Edit: it is impossible for me to spam back air as Diddy with this why do you hurt the ones you love sakurai

Just wow..that's unbelievable.

 

[Fisaulerod]

This is a bug and must be fixed. We should spam nintendo about this (club nintendo, twitter, etc)

 

[W.A.C.]

Hopefully some of these issues with the c-stick get changed, especially that issue shown in the video posted by .dissent. I love that the c-stick can be charged now, so it's unfortunate some issues have been added with the control changes.

 

[Conda]

For those who have also switched (for now?) to c-stick tilts:


I've been using c-stick as tilts, but I miss the 'feel' of the c-stick doing what it has always done. I mean, I still perform tilts with the A button because I have been since SSB64 and it's easy. The c-stick is easier sure but it just doesn't feel right to be using a stick to toss out quick tilts. Down Smash OOS with the C-stick felt so good, but now Falco is just swiping his tail in front of him.

I pretty much only use the C-stick for initiating a dash attack (much easier to press down on the cstick while moving than pressing A, you can dash attack from standing position this way), aerials, and dsmash/usmash. Since I cannot use it for smashes, I don't find myself using it. Heck, I find myself f-tilting or u-tilting instead of smashing and missing kills, because my brain is wired to use the c-stick in certain scenarios.

I already know how to input tilts reliably, and it feels good to do it with the A button after training myself to back in the brawl days. I don't need the c-stick to do that.

But hey, I'm getting used to it. I wish it didn't have nair/jabs built in because I use them accidentally and I have a darn A button to do those with. Yes, it's objectively better to use the cstick to nair since you can move freely with the other stick, but I'm so used to doing it the normal way that it's hard to see the need to adjust.

Basically, c-stick tilts are cool, but I don't know if I'd be using them if c-stick smashes was working properly. I'll adjust for sure, but only because I'm forced to haha.

 

[Jehtt]

I've "discovered" that if you have your C-stick set to "attack" instead of "Smash," you can still perform Smashes with the C-stick. To do it, press both the joystick and the c-stick in the direction you want to do a smash attack at the same time. You'll even be able to charge it. I find it easier than A + Tap Sideways

Hm. I'm trying to get it to work again, but I can't. In fact, I can't replicate it at all.

I'll let you know if I can recreate it, but ignore me for now.

 

[Conda]

I've "discovered" that if you have your C-stick set to "attack" instead of "Smash," you can still perform Smashes with the C-stick. To do it, press both the joystick and the c-stick in the direction you want to do a smash attack at the same time. You'll even be able to charge it. I find it easier than A + Tap Sideways

I can't get this to work, I've also never had it happen. I would've easily seen this as I did a lot of testing with control schemes to find a workaround.

 

[Jehtt]

I can't get this to work, I've also never had it happen. I would've easily seen this as I did a lot of testing with control schemes to find a workaround.

Hm. I'm trying to get it to work again, but I can't. In fact, I can't replicate it at all.

I'll let you know if I can recreate it, but ignore me for now.

 

[Shaya]

Tilt Stick + Z/Grab button = smashes or?

 

[Conda]

Tilt Stick + Z/Grab button = smashes or?

Nope

 

[DiamondDust]

Bug or not, this sucks. Seriously. Fortunately, this is most likely something that can be patched out quite easily if we make enough noise. I can't imagine why something like this would be intentional, so I'm pretty sure it's just a dumb oversight. 'Tiltsticking' seems like a decent fix, but it presents another problem for me personally, as I've always used the C-stick for smashing.

Man, if you could just turn off charging with the C-stick, all our problems would be solved. They could just add something like that with a patch if they didn't want to completely take out the feature.

 

[DeLux]

Should be noted that B + Cstick no longer is usable to reverse specials as far as I can tell. haven't tested other variants and other more nuanced control inputs. Will test later.

 

[Gawain]

Just spreading the word but holy moly the input delay on the c stick, tilts or smashes, makes comboimg as falcon literally impossible. You can only do one uair before you can jump again, whereas using a you can short hop uair into a double jump knee or uair. I really hope this is fixed because it would be a huge benefit to use the c stick for falcon

 

[Jehtt]

Yeah, I've noticed the C-Stick delay too. Sometimes I can get rapid tilts and aerials, but other times it just doesn't work. I've found myself using the joystick + A more than anything.

IDK how they screwed up the c-stick in so many aspects. I can only hope they fix it.

 

[Lamato]

They really screwed up my playstyle. I can't control my follow ups at all with Kirby. I really hope Nintendo catches wind FAST.

 

[popsofctown]

Who's ever struggling doing a Nair with the A button actually ? I don't quite understands that part.

Thus i'm not a fan on letting the game imposing their controls, and definitely letting go all that muscle memory. So i do hope that this is getting a hotfix.

You struggle with drifting forward with a Nair with the A button. Everyone does.

To do a true approaching Nair with the A button, you would have to be holding right, then all within one 60th of a second, push the control stick to neutral, tap A, then push the control stick back to right. Otherwise you stopped drifting right for at least 1 frame and missed some of the horizontal movement you could have had.

Most high difficulty ATS don't even have 3 sequential actions all packed in one frame so I don't think it is humanly possible to do this.


With tilt sticking you hold right the entire time and push the c stick.

 

[otter]

Honestly, angled tilts and pivot tilts are equally important as c-stick aerials to me, so I'm kind of screwed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This isn't a glitch. If anything, it makes sense to me--With the 3DS as a potential control scheme, they had to make sure that controller choice was just a matter of preference, rather than something that gives a player an advantage.

While it's awkward to get used to (probably gonna switch to tilt stick as a result), I totally understand why they did it, and I don't expect it to change.

 

[W.A.C.]

If Nintendo's logic was that it should be done because of the tiny minority of people out there who prefer a 3DS as a controller over the seven other controller options, that logic by Nintendo would be...questionable, to say the least.

 

[EndgameN]

If Nintendo's logic was that it should be done because of the tiny minority of people out there who prefer a 3DS as a controller over the seven other controller options, that logic by Nintendo would be...questionable, to say the least.

Not to mention people have paid $40-$50 for this and as such will probably either send hate mail or demand a refund because thats the price of a game for a controller with its main feature jacked up. Also after testing you can use at the very least the Gamepad right stick like the good old c-stick so they have no excuse for "unfair advantage" or some bs.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Or the large number of people who bought the 3DS version and want to be able to continue using it for practice/on-the-go matches? Or the large number of people who are largely indifferent about what controller they use? Or the large number of people who don't use the C-Stick for aerials and like the idea of being able to charge Smashes more easily this way?

Those people may be few and far between on SmashBoards, but the competitive community is a very tiny percentage of the individuals who bought/will buy this game. Regardless of that, though, requiring people to drop an extra $50 to get access to certain moves that are otherwise unavailable creates a situation where you have to make a noticeably larger investment just to "play the real game," which isn't something that Nintendo would want to support (and I am glad for that, honestly).

 

[popsofctown]

Or the large number of people who bought the 3DS version and want to be able to continue using it for practice/on-the-go matches? Or the large number of people who are largely indifferent about what controller they use? Or the large number of people who don't use the C-Stick for aerials and like the idea of being able to charge Smashes more easily this way?

Those people may be few and far between on SmashBoards, but the competitive community is a very tiny percentage of the individuals who bought/will buy this game. Regardless of that, though, requiring people to drop an extra $50 to get access to certain moves that are otherwise unavailable creates a situation where you have to make a noticeably larger investment just to "play the real game," which isn't something that Nintendo would want to support (and I am glad for that, honestly).

Wouldn't you consider the tilt-stick work around a failure to reach that equality ideal though?

 

[popsofctown]

Really? There's a timer on how long you have to be in neutral position now, too. Sighkurai

Edit: it is impossible for me to spam back air as Diddy with this why do you hurt the ones you love sakurai

Is this on both smash sticking and tilt sticking or just tilt sticking? This could be a workaround to the little-known Brawl bug that buffering a tilt-stick tilt will cause you to jump for god knows why.

 

[EndgameN]

Wouldn't you consider the tilt-stick work around a failure to reach that equality ideal though?

You can also do that with any other compatible controller with a second stick.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

You can also do that with any other compatible controller with a second stick.

And you can do that with smash sticking as well.

I don't see your point.

 

[EndgameN]

And you can do that with smash sticking as well.

I don't see your point.

Unless you have a New 3DS with a cstick plenty of other controllers have second sticks? There won't be parity by definition so it's silly if they intentionally messed up how the stick interact with each other.

 

[W.A.C.]

Or the large number of people who bought the 3DS version and want to be able to continue using it for practice/on-the-go matches? Or the large number of people who are largely indifferent about what controller they use? Or the large number of people who don't use the C-Stick for aerials and like the idea of being able to charge Smashes more easily this way?

Those people may be few and far between on SmashBoards, but the competitive community is a very tiny percentage of the individuals who bought/will buy this game. Regardless of that, though, requiring people to drop an extra $50 to get access to certain moves that are otherwise unavailable creates a situation where you have to make a noticeably larger investment just to "play the real game," which isn't something that Nintendo would want to support (and I am glad for that, honestly).

Considering how many households owned more wiimotes than GCN controllers, chances are a lot of people played Brawl with the wiimote sideways and those people were disadvantaged pretty hardcore compared to those who chose the other available control options. They didn't hold back all the other control schemes for the wiimote sideways and I don't think the 3DS as a control scheme intentionally held back this game's controls for those who prefer a more traditional controller.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wouldn't you consider the tilt-stick work around a failure to reach that equality ideal though?

Absolutely. That said, I play to win.

 

[popsofctown]

Considering how many households owned more wiimotes than GCN controllers, chances are a lot of people played Brawl with the wiimote sideways and those people were disadvantaged pretty hardcore compared to those who chose the other available control options. They didn't hold back all the other control schemes for the wiimote sideways and I don't think the 3DS as a control scheme intentionally held back this game's controls for those who prefer a more traditional controller.

You're missing the part where lots of people have a classic controller and Nintendo wanted lots of people to have a classic controller.

They even had classic games you could try out.
This time around that thing they want lots of people to be interested in is a DS with Smash on it.
EDIT: just clarifying with you reflex

 

[Uniit]

You struggle with drifting forward with a Nair with the A button. Everyone does.

To do a true approaching Nair with the A button, you would have to be holding right, then all within one 60th of a second, push the control stick to neutral, tap A, then push the control stick back to right. Otherwise you stopped drifting right for at least 1 frame and missed some of the horizontal movement you could have had.

Most high difficulty ATS don't even have 3 sequential actions all packed in one frame so I don't think it is humanly possible to do this.


With tilt sticking you hold right the entire time and push the c stick.

Well i prefer to lost a couple frame doing my Nair the old way rather than doing Nair/Jab over other aerials/tilts. You can argue that one just need to practice, but i call it reducing human mistakes.

 

[Conda]

Resetting cstick to neutral is important for getting rapid attacks out. I dont think there is delay. Get used to flicking even with cstick set to tilts, you just wont be punished for not flicking every now and again.

 

[ffadicted]

Hmmm... I say there's no way these two issues aren't bugs... It makes the game feel like it has poor and non-responsive inputs, which is something no developer ever wants...

 

[otter]

Those people may be few and far between on SmashBoards, but the competitive community is a very tiny percentage of the individuals who bought/will buy this game. Regardless of that, though, requiring people to drop an extra $50 to get access to certain moves that are otherwise unavailable creates a situation where you have to make a noticeably larger investment just to "play the real game," which isn't something that Nintendo would want to support (and I am glad for that, honestly).

the average player doesn't even understand this change. To be honest, they are more likely to understand that a wireless controller keeps you from playing the "real game",

 

[option.iv]

The bright side I found from all this. With c-stick set to smash, you can do pivot f-smashes really easily. Run, pivot, then fsmash. This is incredibley good for characters with fsmashes better than their tilts like Ness.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Or the large number of people who bought the 3DS version and want to be able to continue using it for practice/on-the-go matches? Or the large number of people who are largely indifferent about what controller they use? Or the large number of people who don't use the C-Stick for aerials and like the idea of being able to charge Smashes more easily this way?

How does adding an option to not charge your smashes in the controls menu hurt any of these people? They can continue charging their smashes with c stick or not using a c stick on the 3ds all they want til the cows come home.

 

[Conda]

Those people may be few and far between on SmashBoards, but the competitive community is a very tiny percentage of the individuals who bought/will buy this game. .

I hear this a lot, but this has totally changed. Not really just for Smash, but for videogames in general.

Just because the tournament-attending population is low no longer necessarily means that barely anyone who gets the game is aware of the competitive side of things. In this modern age, if a game does not have a large population of competitive tournament players, that does not mean that many players do not enjoy playing in a similar competitive fashion for fun on their own.

E-sports and tournaments is only a part of the picture - internet spectating is huge now. People love watching people play at high levels now, and they appreciate it in almost any kind of game. The barrier of "Oh, Smash is a casual game" isn't a negative anymore, even moreso because Smash 4 has a heavy built-in competitive aspect.


The demographic of 'casual competitives' is enormously high now. They are the thousands of people who watch competitive Twitch streams and youtube videos - yes, even Smash. The 175,000 people who watch each of Husky's Starcraft2 videos are not all tournament competitors - they are mostly spectators and low-level Starcraft 2 players who enjoy competitive play, and many of them play the game that way themselves. Twitch, LoL, DOTA, Starcraft, and competitive FPSs are very popular now and in the collective consciousness of many gamers now, even if they aren't part of the small % who actually compete at tournaments.

Not every player who plays LoL is a competitive player, but they're all aware of the competitive side of the game and the fact that players go to tournaments. And that's the accessible MOBA - the one that non-hardcore gamers feel invited to pick up.

Yeah, Smash 4 isn't in the same "obviously-attracts-the-competitive-demographic" league as LoL and Starcraft 2, but all that means is lower population in general. Smash 4 is still a new and exciting fighting game, and a large spectator demographic is certainly growing in line with other games.


Smash 4, due to changes from other Smash titles (especially with For Glory mode introducing everyone to competitive play) is very much in a similar "accessible competitive play" boat in the fighting game market as LoL/SMITE is in the MOBA market. Many players are interested in competitive play, even if they don't compete themselves.

A clearer way to see this is Project M - it is something many people know about and play, yet not everyone is a competitor at tournaments. This is because the population of 'casual competitives' is much higher than any of us really appreciate. Many people know that Smash is played competitively now and are interested in playing more in-line with how the game is played at tournaments, even if the competitive playerbase itself is very low.

Of course, this was NOT the case a year or two ago, but Smash 4 hype - along with the growth of Twitch/Project:M/Melee/Pro-Gaming in the past couple of years - has changed things immensely in the video game industry.


TL:DR

Competitive play is no longer a tiny % of the way people enjoy playing (and especially watching) Smash any more.

 

[Conda]

The bright side I found from all this. With c-stick set to smash, you can do pivot f-smashes really easily. Run, pivot, then fsmash. This is incredibley good for characters with fsmashes better than their tilts like Ness.

True, I have a thread open about the limitations of pivot smashing versus tilting.

Well i prefer to lost a couple frame doing my Nair the old way rather than doing Nair/Jab over other aerials/tilts. You can argue that one just need to practice, but i call it reducing human mistakes.

Yeah, getting a Nair when I want to fair an enemy that is slightly below me sucks. I'm pressing diagonally naturally as the enemy is below me, but setting c-stick to tilts means you have to treat the cstick differently in the air. Instead of point the stick to the enemy (which feels natural if that's how you've played for 13 years), you have to push the stick to the right notch. It's a subtle difference, but the human brain is weird and finds it hard to adjust to at times

Human mistakes indeed and worth reducing. I find that accidentally not flicking my cstick produces more human mistakes, though. I gotta either get better at cstick directional accuracy with c-stick set to tilts, or get better at strictly flicking the cstick with cstick set to smash.

 

[W.A.C.]

You're missing the part where lots of people have a classic controller and Nintendo wanted lots of people to have a classic controller.

They even had classic games you could try out.
This time around that thing they want lots of people to be interested in is a DS with Smash on it.
EDIT: just clarifying with you reflex

If Nintendo really wanted people to buy lots of Classic Controllers, they failed miserably with the Wii. Outside of Virtual Console games, the only first party games I know of that supported the Classic Controller were Brawl, Mario Kart 8, and Xenoblade Chronicles. Not to mention using a Classic Controller required a wiimote for some dumb stupid reason, so that was a $60+ investment for every Wiimote + Classic Controller purchase.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Conda What about B-sticking? Does it work any different than before? Can you still wavebounce and use special in the air or during a dash? Does pressing back on the B-stick while running still give you an instant RAR? Just wondering.