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Upcoming 1.0.4 Balance Patch in November!

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FullMoon

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From what I know they changed Shadow Sneak so that you can't cancel d-air's ending lag with it anymore. So now punishing Greninja for missing d-air is going to be completely safe.
 

Hong

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I think that "good bugs" should be fixed.

That said, fixing a bug is still changing the game. Both the fun factor and the strength of the character can be impacted. Thus, I hope they evaluate bug fixes just like any other change as not to leave gaping holes. MU specific stuff, like ZSS's infinite against Robin, while obscure, would be good riddance if taken out since stuff like that isn't fun at all.
 

ItsRainingGravy

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Peach mains, I hope that you don't lose ledge-canceled vegetable pulls.

RosaLuma respawn nerf is very welcome. Rush Canceling and similar tactics, while neat, are jarring. So it's good to see that being removed too.

The removal of canceling landing lag with Down B item throws, however, is very disappointing.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I'm not a fan of balance patches and hope they will be kept to an absolute minimum. They should focus their efforts on removing glitches.

:059:
 
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Zero Suit Senpai

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The loss of bomb/turnip cancels hurts a ton...and yes I'm biased because I play Peach. I feel like it's a bit early for balance patching, but whatever since I guess it's happening.

R&L nerf seems reasonable, but I hope it's the only nerf she receives. Always better to adjust things minorly, rather than making big changes. Especially this early into the game.

While they're at it I wouldn't mind seeing minor (emphasis on minor) buffs to some of the obviously weaker characters as well.

But still...I hope frequent balance patches do not become a thing.
 
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BBC7

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RosaLuma respawn nerf is very welcome. Rush Canceling and similar tactics, while neat, are jarring. So it's good to see that being removed too.
As a Mega Man player, Rush Cancelling isn't jarring at all IMHO. Even with Rush Cancelling, Mega Man is still having difficulty being accepted as a top-tier or even high-tier by a large majority of Smash 4 players. That should maybe indicate that either Rush Cancelling isn't nearly as bad as everyone thinks, or that Mega Man really, really needs Rush Cancelling ALONG with small additional buffs/no changes. From what I've seen, Rush Cancelling simply makes some match-ups like Mario, Sheik, and ZSS more tolerable. These characters still have tools that can deal with Mega Man anyways, letting them perform combos as well is just overkill and disgusting to the MU's. The only way I'll accept the removal of Rush Cancelling is if every other attack in Mega Man's arsenal receives a buff.
 
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Emblem Lord

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I just hope sakurai removes blatant oversights and glitches.
 
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Luigi player

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I'm scared of what they'll do to the game... while some characters do need some buffs I don't want nerfs on the things that are already there. :(

I don't like an alltime changing game. This can be done through new characters and stages. I'm all for removing stupid glitches though. It's nice to hear that the Yoshi and Wario glitches are removed.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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As a Mega Man player, Rush Cancelling isn't jarring at all IMHO. Even with Rush Cancelling, Mega Man is still having difficulty being accepted as a top-tier or even high-tier by a large majority of Smash 4 players. That should maybe indicate that either Rush Cancelling isn't nearly as bad as everyone thinks, or that Mega Man really, really needs Rush Cancelling ALONG with small additional buffs/no changes. From what I've seen, Rush Cancelling simply makes some match-ups like Mario, Sheik, and ZSS more tolerable. These characters still have tools that can deal with Mega Man anyways, letting them perform combos as well is just overkill and disgusting to the MU's. The only way I'll accept the removal of Rush Cancelling is if every other attack in Mega Man's arsenal receives a buff.
I, too, am a Mega Man player. And I personally think the concept of Rush Canceling is jarring, because it pretty much rewards the Mega Man player the potential to freely escape a combo (which is something already not hard to do in Smash 4) with a mere button press, leading to lost rewards on the other player's behalf even if they did the right thing in a particular situation. Sure, it can be punished since it sends the MM player in the air, which is usually never a really good defensive position, but it is still something that looks silly mechanically regardless. Not to mention, Mario already has a somewhat rough time with the rest of the cast when he doesn't have his Custom Moves.

I'm all for Mega Man being a good character, but I feel as though a player should be properly rewarded for successfully landing a hit. Even if that player is the opponent. And while Mega Man might not be a top or high tier character, I do feel as though he is a solid Mid Tier character.

Instead of Rush Canceling, more intuitive buffs could be made in its place. Such as Crash Bomber not passing back to Mega Man if it latches on the opponent, less startup lag on Leaf Shield and all other variants, a more reliable meteor hitbox on Hard Knuckle, and etc. These are all great chances without needing to be silly by design in order to be effective.
 
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BBC7

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Speaking of which, if Rush cancelling / item cancelling is gone, is Diddy's hitstun-cancelling Peanut gun gone as well?
Has this even been confirmed as removed though? We're talking a great deal about it but I haven't found a single source stating that it is gone.
 

Locke 06

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Rush canceling does not work on everything. Mega Man still gets combo'd and the lack of a Nair and a jab hurts him hard. I could see nerfing rush canceling (zss fsmash realistically should connect as should peach's dsmash), but it's not as OP as people make it out to be.
 

Zero Suit Senpai

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Has this even been confirmed as removed though? We're talking a great deal about it but I haven't found a single source stating that it is gone.
I'm just taking Tagxy's word for it:
From people who played smash 4 wii u at the hollywood release most things seemed the same, but they did take out
a) rush cancelling
b) item cancelling (link, toon link, peach)
c) something about greninja side b
d) some yoshi glitch stuff maybe? (speculative)

those are the only known differences but I expect the patch will match what changes are on the wii U. Theres speculation that other hitstun cancels will be out.
But I suppose I shouldn't since this is how rumors get started. You're right; nothing has been confirmed except for the R&L nerf to Luma's respawn time.
 

BBC7

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I, too, am a Mega Man player. And I personally think the concept of Rush Canceling is jarring, because it pretty much rewards the Mega Man player the potential to freely escape a combo (which is something already hard to do in Smash 4) with a mere button press, leading to lost rewards on the other player's behalf even if they did the right thing in a particular situation. Sure, it can be punished since it sends the MM player in the air, which is usually never a really good defensive position, but it is still something that looks silly mechanically regardless. Not to mention, Mario already has a somewhat rough time with the rest of the cast when he doesn't have his Custom Moves.

I'm all for Mega Man being a good character, but I feel as though a player should be properly rewarded for successfully landing a hit. Even if that player is the opponent. And while Mega Man might not be a top or high tier character, I do feel as though he is a solid Mid Tier character.

Instead of Rush Canceling, more intuitive buffs could be made in its place. Such as Crash Bomber not passing back to Mega Man if it latches on the opponent, less startup lag on Leaf Shield and all other variants, a more reliable meteor hitbox on Hard Knuckle, and etc. These are all great chances without needing to be silly by design in order to be effective.
My main gripe with removing Rush Cancelling is that it gives combo-heavy characters a rather large advantage. You stated that a player should be properly rewarded for successfully landing a hit, which is quite ironic because Mega Man's non-kill moves have very little reward when they do hit in terms of comboing. Mega Man doesn't even get a proper BnB off his Down-Throw, the best follow-up at that point is Fair and even that can easily be avoided by double-jumping before Mega Man can hit you. What you listed doesn't make up for the ability to escape combos, you're screwed if you get touched unlike how it would be with Rush Cancelling. We need intense buffs if we get Rush Cancelling removed, since that is basically how Mega Man will get up to speed with the rest of the cast.

Although don't take my word for it, I'm just butthurt.

EDIT: Also, there is also the fact that Mega Man's Nair does jack-all at trying to stop a combo. Most Nairs can break out of combos at the cost of trading at times.
 
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Thinkaman

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I don't buy for a second that Mega Man for some reason just deserves to have no multi-hit moves in the game work on him.

Particularly just for the kool kids who know the secret button code.
 

BBC7

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I don't buy for a second that Mega Man for some reason just deserves to have no multi-hit moves in the game work on him.

Particularly just for the kool kids who know the secret button code.
This isn't true though, Mega Man can't Rush Cancel everything. It's not like we enjoy getting hit by things like Little Mac Jab Combo, it's kind of embarrassing when Mac can just hold on to A after a jab, let go, and do more damage than our most reliable combos.
 

Thinkaman

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It passes the great Cocaine Logic litnus test with flying colors:

If this wasn't in the game, and someone proposed it, would everyone consider them insane?
 

SonicZeroX

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It passes the great Cocaine Logic litnus test with flying colors:

If this wasn't in the game, and someone proposed it, would everyone consider them insane?
Obviously Mega Man deserves to have it because he's FIGHTING TO SAVE THE WOOORLD.
 

Big O

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Character specific hitstun canceling should not exist. Full stop. Whether or not Mega Man needs buffs is a separate issue entirely.

Honestly though I think he's pretty good and can only get better with proper controls amplifying his spacing game with like C-stick jabs and Nairs.
 
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Ramz289

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I'm excited and scared at the some time. As a Falcon/Doc player I'm not really worried about changes they might get, but I am scared for the other characters I play. I probably shouldn't be as worried as I am, I have bad experience with balance updates (Thanks Capcom).
 

Locke 06

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It passes the great Cocaine Logic litnus test with flying colors:

If this wasn't in the game, and someone proposed it, would everyone consider them insane?
I actually don't think so based on how Rush helps Mega Man escape in the Mega Man games. I think rush canceling certain moves like ZSS' fsmash is insane, but rush canceling out of jab combos, DK's grounded up-B, or Marth's side-B combos I could see. As of now, Mega Man still gets hit by multihit moves like MK's and Pit's aerials (I think)

Edit: maybe not dk's grounded up-B. But combos instead of multihit moves.
 
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BBC7

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Character specific hitstun canceling should not exist. Full stop. Whether or not Mega Man needs buffs is a separate issue entirely.

Honestly though I think he's pretty good and can only get better with proper controls amplifying his spacing game with like C-stick jabs and Nairs.
So the logic here is that because other characters cannot perform this, Mega Man shouldn't be able to as well? I don't care if it's an oversight, bug, or glitch, people have got used to the vanilla form of Mega Man because it is the first form of Mega Man. The fact that it's unintended doesn't change the fact that it isn't OP, or else Mega Man would be a much better character. At this point, it's clear to me that Mega Man basically needs Rush Cancelling or buffing and that the balance patches should have been more about balancing the characters with the tech in mind, rather than just outright removing the tech from the game lazily.
 
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Locke 06

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So the logic here is that because other characters cannot perform this, Mega Man shouldn't be able to as well? I don't care if it's an oversight, bug, or glitch, people have got used to the vanilla form of Mega Man because it is the first form of Mega Man. The fact that it's unintended doesn't change the fact that it isn't OP, or else Mega Man would be a much better character. At this point, it's clear to me that Mega Man basically needs Rush Cancelling or buffing and that the balance patches should have been more about balancing the characters with the tech in mind, rather than just outright removing the tech from the game lazily.
Mega man doesn't need rush canceling to be competitively viable. Your bias is showing. There are many high level matches/matchups that don't even use rush canceling.
 

BBC7

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Mega man doesn't need rush canceling to be competitively viable. Your bias is showing. There are many high level matches/matchups that don't even use rush canceling.
He doesn't need it too much, I agree, but the option is certainly valuable and I'm not willing to give it up without a little polishing to what Mega Man can do with his other moves.
 

MM720

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Buff Luigi's KO and recovery back to Brawl please, keep everything else the same. Then I'm set.
So much this. While the recovery is okay (still hilariously easy to gimp if opponents know what they're doing), his KO power is nonexistent.

His only reliable KOing moves are his smashes (and even then you need at least 120% or so), sweetspot up B and bair. i can't count all the times I've comboed people to over 100% really quickly but then lost because of my inability to actually KO them....

I don't want to rely on a lucky endgame smash (when opponent is extra careful), getting punished by accidentally whiffing upB, failing to gimp or just badly spacing bair (bair is so slow in this game that it's funny).

As things are now, winning against people like Lucario or Diddy Kong is almost impossible :/ (provided the skill is equal)
 

Locke 06

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He doesn't need it too much, I agree, but the option is certainly valuable and I'm not willing to give it up without a little polishing to what Mega Man can do with his other moves.
What would you suggest? The only thing I can think of would be less lag on leaf shield. Everything else feels great which is what the majority of mega man users want. Messing with damage output would keep him feeling the same, but make him too good, in my opinion.
 

Locke 06

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Bomb canceling is something that I could see them taking out but replacing with some kind of arrow-bomb tech, because bomb arrows are an actual thing in Zelda.
 

BBC7

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What would you suggest? The only thing I can think of would be less lag on leaf shield. Everything else feels great which is what the majority of mega man users want. Messing with damage output would keep him feeling the same, but make him too good, in my opinion.
I'm not saying we should have everything listed below, they're just ideas

A more reliable BnB off a Down-Throw(make Down Throw + Fair easier to land)
Thrown Metal Blade does 10% to the whole cast(it does 5% against some characters such as Mario making it less desirable to pick up as an item)
Quicker activation on Leaf Shield
D-Tilt always hits and only sour-spots at very last frames(it whiffs at point blank)
More consistent U-Air in terms of ability to kill(this one is pretty significant)
Shadow Blade to do 3% per each hit
F-Smash to have just slightly more range
Tornado Hold to do more than 6% (maybe 8% or 10%, even 12% although that feels like too much even with stale moves)

There's more that I was thinking of but I seemed to forget what those ideas were.
 

byebye

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I strongly believe that this patch is the "Wii U" release date patch.
So whatever it is in the Prod version of the Wii U game, it'll be in the 3DS via this patch.

So if someone tested that item toss lag cancel, megaman RC glitch are gone and luma's spawn time increased, in the Wii U version, then most likely they'll be in the patch.

To get more info, it would be good if someone here already have the Wii U version to test things out.

as far as changes go, I support them (even if I main peach). All glitches and bugs should be fixed, then infinites.
then balance changes. So far I think the balance is ok in the 3ds version. But if we are to get balance changes, I side with giving buffs to the lower tiers than nerfs to the top tiers.
 

Big O

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So the logic here is that because other characters cannot perform this, Mega Man shouldn't be able to as well? I don't care if it's an oversight, bug, or glitch, people have got used to the vanilla form of Mega Man because it is the first form of Mega Man. The fact that it's unintended doesn't change the fact that it isn't OP, or else Mega Man would be a much better character. At this point, it's clear to me that Mega Man basically needs Rush Cancelling or buffing and that the balance patches should have been more about balancing the characters with the tech in mind, rather than just outright removing the tech from the game lazily.
Just because people "got used to it" doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed. I understand you would like him to keep it and be balanced with that in mind, but that is ultimately just one person's viewpoint. Being a glitch or bug isn't necessarily a bad thing as there are good glitches (special cancels in SF2) and bad glitches (Gordos getting stuck). It's just that what you consider to be a good glitch, most other people agree is not.

Some people may have gotten used to it as a crutch, but ultimately breaking out of certain multihit moves and combos that work on everyone else is annoying and bad design. Just my opinion.
 

Spirst

 
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From what I know they changed Shadow Sneak so that you can't cancel d-air's ending lag with it anymore. So now punishing Greninja for missing d-air is going to be completely safe.
Are you sure? Not too big an issue since it's not that useful anyway on higher levels of play but having another option reduced always sucks.
 

cAm8ooo

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If they took TLinks Bomb Cancel I'll shoot myself.
Supposedly it is indeed gone. Which is very worrisome to me. If Bowser's wavevdash/waveslash (whatever you want to call it), and Wectoring is gone ill be even more upset. I don't play any of these characters and never plan to but they make the game unique and add more tech skill that the game really benefits from. If Nintendo continues to patch out advanced techniques it could be bad for the competitive community and promote keeping things secret instead of spreading them. This is overall worst for the metagame.
 

BBC7

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Eh, I admit defeat. I guess I'll just have to see how they changed Rock before coming to a conclusion. I just don't like that we're being stripped of AT's, I want a little bit more than just bare-bone "what the developer intended", even if it's just hitting a button to escape damage.
 

Thinkaman

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Harsh Truth: "Tech" is cool-kid slang for "unintuitive inputs for degeneratively optimal options and behaviors that remove depth but make me artificially better than people who don't go on smashboards."
 

Dabuz

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Ugh, balance patches 2 months into the game's international release, no one knows enough about the balance of this game that making significant changes will be good in the long run.
 

SonicZeroX

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Harsh Truth: "Tech" is cool-kid slang for "unintuitive inputs for degeneratively optimal options and behaviors that remove depth but make me artificially better than people who don't go on smashboards."
Finding and researching tech though, now that's for REAL cool kids :cool:
 
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