Upcoming 1.0.4 Balance Patch in November!

[A2ZOMG]

Ok when I said Side B I primarily meant the Dragon Rush variant which is absolutely silly, but Blast burn killing at 60% and Flare Blitz are also silly but not quite on Dragon Rush level.

That makes more sense. Though I'd still disagree that Charizard is strictly defined by his specials.

 

[Big O]

To an extent, I'm going to have to agree with Thinkaman that some AT's are inherently silly in nature from a design standpoint like Roll-Canceled Grabs. The issue I have with such AT's aren't the fact that they exist. I understand why this particular AT exists and can see the logic behind input leniency allowing it to be done. My issue with them is when they end up eclipsing other options.

On Little Mac there is no reason to dash grab when RC grabs gives him much better distance/range. As a competitive player there would be no incentive to dash grab over RC grab in any situation you can use RC grabs. Because of this, you are essentially burdened with more complicated motions if you want to be optimal. If they just made his dash grab the functionally equivalent to RC grabs in distance/range, now there is no need for any silly and extraneous input tax.

I know being a real time game forces execution to become a big factor and that there will always be some level of an execution barrier, but there should be great efforts made in streamlining things as much as possible. Like perhaps instead of DACUS requiring such strict and unnatural inputs, what if the slide from running Usmash was determined by how long you hold the jump button.

I love AT's for what they allow and the new options they bring, just not always how they are executed. I liked L-Canceling for what it let you do on offense, but at the same time there was no reason not to do it and eventually it ended just being a hassle. I know there are a lot of people who do enjoy doing these kinds of things, but I think that the game itself can facilitate enough of these "rewards" on its own without having to add somewhat arbitrary mechanics.

No matter how much you streamline or dumb down the controls, there will be things that require finesse like properly spacing attacks, tech chase setups, tricky combos, crazy SDI escapes, footsies, timing the super armor/invincibility of your moves properly, power shielding, good DI, item control, projectile zoning, mixups, and even something as basic as maneuvering your character.

A lot of the hassle and friction of doing these AT's can and should be removed in my opinion. I do think Thinkaman's stance on the issue may be a tad extreme, but I think that the overall goal of lowering the execution barrier has a lot of merit. I just think we can come to a middle ground where we keep the benefits that the good AT's bring, but without the cumbersome execution tax.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

Hopefully Mega Man and Charizard nerfs as well.

I don't see why Mega Man should be allowed to attack from mid range with impunity.

It doesn't really amount to Mega Man needing to be nerfed, however. Not really a big imbalance there. I can't help but feel Mega Man is not the best at his job right now.

 

[byebye]

Doesn't MK8 have a new type of "snaking"?

Fire hopping tech is usually used on time trials. The risk of doing this in normal races usually does not justify the reward. (if you bumped on anything, it slows you down significantly. and there's just not a lot of places to do them that will give you a good advantage.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Mega Man fans thinking he's not silly. What a surprise.

I imagine people still think Leaf Shield is useless as well.

I just think that characters with projectiles need to be weaker in order to be less toxic to the game.

Mega Man's playstyle often revolves around the question of "when should I stop throwing projectiles?" to which the answer is typically "never."

Why do Mega Man players think playing against Mega Man is fun?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Ok when I said Side B I primarily meant the Dragon Rush variant which is absolutely silly, but Blast burn killing at 60% and Flare Blitz are also silly but not quite on Dragon Rush level.

Sounds like you have more of a problem with the move as opposed to the character.

It's a damn good move though I'll admit. It's a relatively safe option that allows Zard to quickly close the gap from midrange without requiring Flare Blitz's level of commitment, and also escape traps. However, ike Flare Blitz it's not a move that can mindlessly be spammed and requires good reads/spacing to use effectively. The lack of KO power and armor really hurts in certain MUs though so I don't see it as the universal "go to" option for Zard.

I just don't see it as an "OP" move that needs to be nerfed especially when stuff like Villager's Counter Sapling exist, but to each their own.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Sounds like you have more of a problem with the move as opposed to the character.

It's a damn good move though I'll admit. It's a relatively safe option that allows Zard to quickly close the gap from midrange without requiring Flare Blitz's level of commitment, and also escape traps. Like Flare Blitz it's not a move that can mindlessly be spammed and requires good reads to use effectively. The lack of KO power and armor really hurts in certain MUs though so I don't see it as the universal "go to" option for Zard.

I just don't see it as an "OP" move that needs to be nerfed especially when stuff like Villager's Counter Sapling exist.

Yes, I do have a problem with that one move. It's ridiculous. Buff his other moves, I don't care, but for the love of God... Dragon Rush is punishable only by people with FAST LONG RANGE PROJECTILES (Falco? That's about it...) and characters who run Palutena speed or faster because Dragon Rush HAS NO ENDING LAG FOR WHATEVER REASON WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Really my only problem with Charizard is that it's punishable by only 20% of the cast. If you don't use one of those characters, you're ****ED because Dragon Rush and Flamethrower cover every single option the other 40 characters have.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

Mega Man fans thinking he's not silly. What a surprise.

I imagine people still think Leaf Shield is useless as well.

I just think that characters with projectiles need to be weaker in order to be less toxic to the game.

Mega Man's playstyle often revolves around the question of "when should I stop throwing projectiles?" to which the answer is typically "never."

Why do Mega Man players think playing against Mega Man is fun?

Haha, no need to make these assumptions. I know Leaf Shield isn't useless and I know what Mega Man can do. Your issue with Mega Man doesn't seem like something that a simple nerf would do, since most of the dudes moves are projectiles and nerfing all of that would mean shoving the character into the void. Not gonna argue whether or not projectile heavy characters are "toxic" to the game or not, since I'm not gonna change how fun it is to play against Mega Man by talking about it. It's honestly a preferential thing in my opinion.

EDIT: Sorry, bit off topic. Point is, I don't think a regular balance patch is going to fix that issue for you without compromising projectile based characters.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Yes, I do have a problem with that one move. It's ridiculous. Buff his other moves, I don't care, but for the love of God... Dragon Rush is punishable only by people with FAST LONG RANGE PROJECTILES (Falco? That's about it...) and characters who run Palutena speed or faster because Dragon Rush HAS NO ENDING LAG FOR WHATEVER REASON WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Really my only problem with Charizard is that it's punishable by only 20% of the cast. If you don't use one of those characters, you're ****ED because Dragon Rush and Flamethrower cover every single option the other 40 characters have.

You're oversimplifying how safe the move is considering it lacks Flare Blitz's armor which means many characters can trade with it or flat out beat it with a good read. It also gets beat by most projectiles.

You're also not considering the fact that even if the move is blocked and the opposing character can't reach him in time to punish, Zard is most likely in a bad position since he'll either be offstage or cornered.

 

[Locke 06]

Mega Man's playstyle often revolves around the question of "when should I stop throwing projectiles?" to which the answer is always "never."

Fixed.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Haha, no need to make these assumptions. I know Leaf Shield isn't useless and I know what Mega Man can do. Your issue with Mega Man doesn't seem like something that a simple nerf would do, since most of the dudes moves are projectiles and nerfing all of that would mean shoving the character into the void. Not gonna argue whether or not projectile heavy characters are "toxic" to the game or not, since I'm not gonna change how fun it is to play against Mega Man by talking about it. It's honestly a preferential thing in my opinion.

Actually, nerfing is exactly what they need to do. Why is F-smash allowed to KO at low percents and also cover landings from half a stage away? There's your first nerf, gut f-smash's power.

Why the **** can Skull Shield reflect projectiles? Why does Leaf Shield even exist? Give it a cooldown so it's not mindlessly spammable and make it impossible to grab Mega Man. There's your second nerf.

That would make the character more bearable to fight against to be honest. The forward and back blade thing could probably do with a nerf too but w/e.

You're oversimplifying how safe the move is considering it lacks Flare Blitz's armor which means many characters can trade with it or flat out beat it with a good read. It also gets beat by most projectiles.

You're also not considering the fact that even if the move is blocked and the opposing character can't reach him in time to punish, Zard is most likely in a bad position since he'll either be offstage or cornered.

I find it difficult to beat out. Also I tried beating it out with Luma Star Bit Shot and it just cancels the shot. So no.

Also~

No, Charizard doesn't care about being in neutral. Or offstage since he can get back so easily.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I find it difficult to beat out. Also I tried beating it out with Luma Star Bit Shot and it just cancels the shot. So no.

Also~

No, Charizard doesn't care about being in neutral. Or offstage since he can get back so easily.

Difficult for you =/= impossible. Using Luma as an example won't work well here consider DR is widely known as one of the better anti-Luma tools in the game.

If you could provide video evidence of Zard beating the majority of the cast by spamming Flamethrower and DR at high levels of play I'd love to see it. I already know you won't because you're oversimplifying how safe the move really is.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Or rather I won't because no one plays Charizard and no one can record Smash 4 anyway.

~Goal posts moved~

 

[san.]

Dragon Rush seems punishable enough. You can hit it with a disjointed attack or punish OoS (the game even freezes Charizard for you it seems). It's still good, but I don't think it's safe enough to just whip out like I think is being implied.

 

[Locke 06]

@ KuroganeHammer
F-smash has enough lag and can't really KO unless charged a lot. (Kill % uncharged from the center of FD is 155%)

Skull shield... Well, you've got me there. I'm actually surprised it works as a reflector on reaction. Leaf shield can be grabbed through (that's actually one of the main ways I've found to beat it since it'll stop once Mega Man is grabbed) and the startup lag is pretty bad. The move has weaknesses, people that aren't Mega Man mains just don't really understand what beats it yet.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dragon Rush seems punishable enough. You can hit it with a disjointed attack or punish OoS (the game even freezes Charizard for you it seems). It's still good, but I don't think it's safe enough to just whip out like I think is being implied.

But it doesn't, if he does it just outside your attack range, he slips right past your shield onto the other side of the stage.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

So about the patch...

 

[san.]

But it doesn't, if he does it just outside your attack range, he slips right past your shield onto the other side of the stage.

Tested just now, was able to turnaround jab out of shield every time, no matter how close or far Charizard was before he started Dragon Rush.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Tested just now, was able to turnaround jab out of shield every time, no matter how close or far Charizard was before he started Dragon Rush.

if its really this simple i will flip a ****ing table

 

[Crescent_Sun]

I'm actually curious if there's an easy compiled, developing list of what's different for the wii U version we've managed to find? Since it seems mainly like the 3DS patch is just going to update to Wii U, and that the wii U version isn't likely to have a day 1 patch. If there is one, I haven't been able to find, and I figure that'd be the equivalent of patch notes that we gather as far as we know.

 

[TTTTTsd]

if its really this simple i will flip a ****ing table

Sometimes the best ways are the most fundamental. I remember wondering how to punish Honda headbutts in SF2 a long time ago, turns out they gave jabs priority for a reason.....

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

*Sees all of the posts of people fearing for nerfs to their characters*

Ah, it's a good day to not have a main!

 

[LancerStaff]

Why do Mega Man players think playing against Mega Man is fun?

...Because it is?

 

[A2ZOMG]

if its really this simple i will flip a ****ing table

Similarly, you can shieldgrab things like Jiggs Rollout or Yoshi Egg Roll by facing backwards. Hell, I've landed a reversal Shoryuken on Egg Roll this way before.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Honestly I doubt we're going to see random nerfs to characters in this patch(and I'm not expecting many buffs either). If your main doesn't have any glitchy exploits and isn't widely considered OP you probably won't see nerfs. Mac is the only character I could potentially see getting unwarranted nerfs. (Watch Sakurai prove me wrong and nerf Ganon into the Twilight Realm)

 

[GeZ]

@ Thinkaman
A few people already made counter arguments to your big post about jank, but to put a little emphasis to their disagreement I'm going to cite how Street Fighter developed into the series that it is because of "tech".

Combos were never intended. Street Fighter 2 was designed to have characters land single hits. The hitstun characters underwent when hit was in place to prevent people being punished for landing a move. Yet people found if they did a jump attack deep enough the opponent would be in hitstun long enough for another move to connect. This was taken and run with by the competitive community. The designers didn't see this as a bad thing, as it was their game being interacted with by the community in an unexpected way. Stringing together moves was jank to them. Not intended, not designed, but it's the pillar of one of the most classic fighting games combo system.

Even past that, an actual exploit was cancelling normals with specials. Having a normal move stop half way through and having a fireball or uppercut come out was absolutely not supposed to happen. It was very strict timing wise, which is why the development team hadn't caught it, but the players had. The combination of combos and special cancelling led to the shake out of character viability and tiers for that game.

Now take both those away and you're left with pokes, and footsies, which is really the foundation of the game, but not the entirety. It's the same in smash. You take away the AT's, the exploits, the things that grant more control and more options to the player, and you're left with footsies, and pokes. It's too little. Foundational? Yes. Enough? Absolutely not.

I swear, everyone would benefit from playing a year or two of street fighter. You never hear people in the competitive community say, **** like your wall of text on AT and tech, because those are foundational and indentured into fighting games, but Smash is so isolated from the rest of the scene that you guys have no scope of reference and make these broad, wrong statements about intention of design and what's "right" for a game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I swear, everyone would benefit from playing a year or two of street fighter. You never hear people in the competitive community say, **** like your wall of text on AT and tech, because those are foundational and indentured into fighting games, but Smash is so isolated from the rest of the scene that you guys have no scope of reference and make these broad, wrong statements about intention of design and what's "right" for a game.

Thinkaman has played a lot of different types of video games. I would be careful saying that people like us don't have a scope of reference to fairly compare game design.

Even outside of just fighting games, something like League of Legends teaches a lot of lessons about what type of gameplay should be enforced and is satisfying for players. This is how we understand that non-intuitive exploits as a whole are often not preferable, and games should not be balanced around them ideally.

 

[GeZ]

Thinkaman has played a lot of different types of video games. I would be careful saying that people like us don't have a scope of reference to fairly compare game design.

Even outside of just fighting games, something like League of Legends teaches a lot of lessons about what type of gameplay should be enforced and is satisfying for players. This is how we understand that non-intuitive exploits as a whole are often not preferable, and games should not be balanced around them ideally.

There's a large difference between balanced around them and having them exist. I made the assumption that he hasn't played other fighting games because what he is rallying against is the foundation of the classic fighter (not just street fighter but most classic fighting games). League also balances differently than most fighters.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So about these so-called ATs, I'd like to start with the obvious statement that how we feel about the game's design isn't important to what will be implemented in patches, and it's best to just accept whatever comes our way. Getting worked up over things we can't control doesn't help us.

I do kinda find a lot of the positions in favor of ATs a bit off though. I think my primary disagreement comes from SP saying the following:

If there were NO reward for "pushing buttons better" then there would be no differentiator between mid and high level players.

This statement I really think misses the mark. Mid level players can do ATs just fine; if you go to a Melee tournament and play Joe Average attendee, he'll L-cancel everything just like the high level pros. Why wouldn't he? It's a binary skill (either you can do it or you can't), and any mid-level player will be sure to have all the relevant binary skills down pat. The difference between Joe and and a real pro isn't about ATs; it's about mastering fundamentals. The real pros have much better reads, spacing, timing, movement, set-ups, stage control, reactions, DI... What the ATs actually do is differentiate between the low level and mid level players. The low level players either don't know about the tech or haven't mastered the inputs, and they simply are playing with an inferior option set to the other players. When ATs are extremely powerful in a game (like Melee), you end up with this huge gulf between low level and mid level players even though they're similarly good at fundamentals, and it's actually extremely discouraging to the low level players that they just can't play the "real game" until they pay the tax of learning these arcane inputs. Since the effect these ATs being hard has in differentiating between mid and high level players is extremely small while it's extremely big in keeping low level players out of the mid level, it's mostly the sort of thing that works against the health of a community.

I do think it's natural for there to be hard input, but it should be emergent from strong fundamental play and not tied to the simple execution of an option. Like in Brawl, I figured out eventually that Mr. Game & Watch actually can safely use his bair on Marth's shield. You just have to space *perfectly* so you hit with the very tip of the hitbox and then air control away (which also means your velocity when you hit with that far hitbox is relevant, can't be moving toward Marth too fast!). It's a surgical maneuver that I don't imagine any player who hasn't put the kind of hours into G&W that I have would be able to do, and it's super rewarding since you don't have to turtle his shield, watch him up-B on reaction and whiff, and punish with your 22% damage kills at 80% G&W usmash too many times before the Marths get an idea that they need to respect turtle again (which lets me get away with turtles that are punishable in theory for even more spatial control!). It is a reward for dedication, but it flows naturally from mastering the fundamentals of strong spacing and good movement. I actually feel like smash 4 is just packed with this kind of nuance; I don't see that it needs any fast fingers tests to succeed as a game.

I will disagree with Thinkaman a bit in that he casts an overwide net in throwing my friend Stutter Step Fsmash into that batch. Stutter Step Fsmash is not only a pretty intuitive input (it's based off input leniency but is very obvious that it should exist), but it opens up real options especially to characters with disjointed fsmashes. Doing the late fsmash with the big step gets the most range, but it moves you forward which often might move you into a hitbox (fsmash is disproportionately often used as a whiff punish; this comes up a lot) and it does take a few extra frames which can matter especially if you're milking partially charged smashes for extra damage on punishes or to hit magic numbers like 15% damage to kill Timber Counter (those few stutter step frames could be frames you spend charging!). You also have move sweetspots to consider in which inputting your smash at arbitrary points in the input window could be the correct way to nail that fsmash sweetspot (Marth, DDD really care about this) and we know Pokemon Stadium 2 is back so the ice behavior will be a thing; there are all kinds of wrinkles where this adds a lot of decision making. The input itself is actually very easy (smash the stick the right way and hit A when you want to start the smash), it's intuitive enough that I figured it out on my own in the early Melee days before reading anything online about how to do "ATs", and like any good mechanic it can be used in more and more smart ways as players improve in skill.

 

[keninblack]

RIP Little Mac... and even with the Luma spawn nerf, Rosalina is still going to be ridiculous prolly.

CAN WE GET BJR BUFFS PLEASE?!

L A R R Y || B O Y S

 

[otter]

Fighting games are just not interesting enough without execution challenges, they've always been a unique mix of decision making and execution. There are much better games for just decision making. As soon as you remove execution, your game just became inferior to chess or Starcraft.

 

[Thinkaman]

What you are leaving out is the reward for dedication.

But this is exactly why execution barriers are toxic; they only reward dedication and improvement at a shallow, binary level!

Ralph Koster gives an amazing talk "Games are Math", in which he applies complexity class to gameplay.

Something like Palutena's Lightweight glitch is O(1), strictly binary. You read about it on smashboards, and then you can do it. That is the end of the improvement added to the game by this secret barrier.

When you have to sit down and master l-canceling or roll-cancelled grabs before you can play the real game, that is a shallow, boring avenue of "improvement"--particularly when improving in the real game underneath is much deeper. We could add countless random execution and knowledge tests to the game in the name of giving players endless things to improve upon, but that would be stupid:

• Press a jump button during smash attacks to do more damage
• Rotate your control stick 360 degrees during a grab for more range
• Tap shield button in rhythm with multi-hit attacks to SDI better
• Memorize an exact percentage that each character in the game takes double knockback at
• Answer a trivia question about Andrew Jackson during stage select to spawn with a laser sword
• Bake the TO a cake between bracket rounds for an extra stage ban

There's no shortage of random bullcrap we can make up to give people something to practice.

But all of these things are insular and exclusionary distractions from the real, meaty, NP-hard gameplay decisions like dynamic spacing, yomi, and complex evaluation.

Not all skill tests are created equal, and we want the highest density possible of NP-hard gameplay: things humans can literally improve themselves at forever.

This conversation makes David Sirlin a really, really sad panda.

http://www.sirlin.net/posts/podcast-sirlin-on-game-design

The grand finals of the first playable alpha version of my fighting game went down to Chris G vs a kid who loved fighting games but could never play them because he had trouble with basic inputs. And you know what? That grand finals went amazing. Proof of concept for my design philosophy. But the difference between that kid and other people like him is that he spent literally the entire day before the tournament at this convention playing my game. He could do things no other person could despite having a low traditional tech skill. He was rewarded for playing the game more because he could move in interesting ways and utilize the game's inherent mobility options very well.

Wait, this sounds like you are arguing for my side. Give people REAL stuff to practice with ACTUAL DEPTH, rather than make them practice inputs.

In a game focused on difficult inputs, Chris G would always beat random No-Tech Timmy.

Bringing the discussion back to Smash, THAT is what Smash actually lacks. The game does not have inherent options that, when utilized to their best capacity, provide a reward for continued playing. The issue with Smash 4 and Brawl is that players simply do not feel their own progression as players as heavily as they do vs something like Melee.

I can't disagree more. I felt infinitely more satisfaction and growth when all I had to focus on was yomi, dynamic spacing, and option evaluation.

Practicing l-cancelling and wavedashing was boring as hell. (So was practicing DACUS)

Fighting games are just not interesting enough without execution challenges, they've always been a unique mix of decision making and execution. There are much better games for just decision making. As soon as you remove execution, your game just became inferior to chess or Starcraft.

No, fighting games excel in using a real-time interface to compress an incredibly high density of yomi decisions. The idea that we need super tough button inputs is Cocaine Logic.

If we wanted execution tests, we'd go bowling. Or just play Beatmania.

I swear, everyone would benefit from playing a year or two of street fighter. You never hear people in the competitive community say, **** like your wall of text on AT and tech, because those are foundational and indentured into fighting games, but Smash is so isolated from the rest of the scene that you guys have no scope of reference and make these broad, wrong statements about intention of design and what's "right" for a game.

I'm just sitting here talking to David, sharing the deepest of sighs.

 

[Ryusuta]

I really, truly hope that a miracle happens and the patch separates custom moves from custom equipment so it'll be easier to allow in tournament play. I doubt they'd do something that complex, though, sadly.

More realistically, I hope that they - at minimum - double the time Luma is out of play when killed. But I doubt they'd do that, either.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

They've already near doubled Luma's respawn time on the Wii U, so that's pretty much definitely changing in the upcoming patch. 13ish second respawn time now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Just gonna say combos in SF2 are infinitely more intuitive and less arbitrary than L Cancelling or Wavedashing, and general movement in SF2 is simple and doesn't require a bunch of input either. The only comparable tech in SF that I'd compare to say, Melee, would be SF3's pace and gameplay.

(For the record I love Melee)

 

[SonicZeroX]

If we wanted execution tests, we'd go bowling. Or just play Beatmania.

And if we wanted games of pure Yomi then we'd play Chess or Poker.

But we don't, we want both.

 

[Thinkaman]

And if we wanted games of pure Yomi then we'd play Chess or Poker.

Neither of these games have yomi.

 

[backlot]

They've already near doubled Luma's respawn time on the Wii U, so that's pretty much definitely changing in the upcoming patch. 13ish second respawn time now.

Bowsercide forces Sudden Death in the Wii U version too. I've also heard that Greninja can't cancel aerials with Shadow Sneak.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Okay maybe chess was a bad example because it's potentially a 'solved' game, but how does Poker not have Yomi?

 

[Ryusuta]

They've already near doubled Luma's respawn time on the Wii U, so that's pretty much definitely changing in the upcoming patch. 13ish second respawn time now.

This is me being a happy camper. =)

And don't worry, Rosalina fans. She's still going to be insanely good, in my estimation. But that's just the way it all seems to me. I feel this nerf was needed, but at the same time, I acknowledge that I'm not exactly a world-class player with all of the answers.