Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

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Mogisthelioma

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Mystery of the Emblem was a SNES release, so Marth could count for that as well. Roy is from the GBA.
Whoops.
I have to mention that assist trophies can be silly heartbreakers when it comes to those who have a potential to be playable. In fact, for them being an assist trophy is worse than not including them in the game at all. On the other hand when it comes to those who shouldn't be playable, being an assist trophy is better than nothing.

Also in my opinion, it's best to have more iconic 3rd party characters get in first.

Here's a list of 3rd party characters from my most iconic estimate to least iconic estimate.

Significantly iconic tier: Sonic, Megaman, Pac-Man, Ryu, Cloud, Simon, Bomberman, Heroes (Dragon Quest), Reimu (Touhou), Banjo, Rayman, Kyo (king of fighters), Akira (Virtura Fighter), Arthur (ghost and goblins), Sora, Ryu Hayabusa, Bill Rizer

Insignificantly iconic tier: Protagonist (persona), Jibanyan, Shantae, Fatal Frame Protagonist, Frisk, Shovel Knight, Quote (cave story), Lilac (freedom planet), Beck (mighty no 9)

So here's the pattern,

Sonic got in before Megaman: matches the pattern. Check

Megaman got in before Pacman: matches the pattern. Check

Pac-Man got in before Ryu: matches the pattern. Check

Ryu got in before Cloud: matches the pattern. Check

Cloud got in before Simon: matches the pattern. Check

Simon got in before Bomberman: matches the pattern. Check

Joker/Ren got in before Bomberman: Wait! somethings wrong! Doesn't match pattern, and doesn't merit to be playable.

Banjo got in before Bomberman: Wait! somethings wrong! Doesn't match pattern, but merits to be playable.

You see above that not only am I unhappy because Joker/Ren got in, but also because he got in before a character who is more iconic than him (who is bomberman), and a character who is more iconic that Joker/Ren became an assist trophy. Which I've already aforementioned.
Dude. Stop it. It has been said before that there is no official way of measuring how iconic something is. You do not dictate how "iconic" a character or series is. This list is wrong on so many levels. Considering their recent fame I'd say Shantae, Shovel Knight, etc. are better off than characters like Akira or Banjo (ignoring Banjo's recent Smash announcement; he hasn't had a game in over a decade).

There is no pattern to how characters are revealed or added to decide how iconic somehting is. Snake was revealed before Sonic, does that make him more iconic? Bayo got in before Simon, does that make her more iconic? Answer this honestly.
 

kaithehedgefox

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Whoops.

Dude. Stop it. It has been said before that there is no official way of measuring how iconic something is. You do not dictate how "iconic" a character or series is. This list is wrong on so many levels. Considering their recent fame I'd say Shantae, Shovel Knight, etc. are better off than characters like Akira or Banjo (ignoring Banjo's recent Smash announcement; he hasn't had a game in over a decade).

There is no pattern to how characters are revealed or added to decide how iconic somehting is. Snake was revealed before Sonic, does that make him more iconic? Bayo got in before Simon, does that make her more iconic? Answer this honestly.
Just because a less iconic character gets in before a more iconic character, doesn't make him/her more iconic.
 
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I don't understand the argument on whether a character is iconic enough, especially when it comes to the 3rd party characters. Does the characters status as an icon matter in regards to Nintendo fans or Nintendo history like :ultmegaman:? Or their status in regards to gaming in general like :ultcloud:? Or does it count about how the character has impacted outside of gaming like :ultpacman:?
Not to mention that what age a person is might impact how recognizable a character is. Compare :ultbanjokazooie: and:ultkrool: to the likes :ultisabelle::ultinkling: and :ultincineroar:. As somebody who started playing video games during the Gamecube/GBA days, I didn't know about either Banjo or K Rool besides the bear from Diddy Kong Racing (my dentist had the game in his office) or the gator from Mario Super Slugger, until I started Smash speculation.
 
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Xelrog

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I don't understand the argument on whether a character is iconic enough, especially when it comes to the 3rd party characters. Does the characters status as an icon matter in regards to Nintendo fans or Nintendo history like :ultmegaman:? Or their status in regards to gaming in general like :ultcloud:? Or does it count about how the character has impacted outside of gaming like :ultpacman:?
Namely 2 and 3, but 1 is worth consideration when it comes to Smash. Someone who grew up on Nintendo is likely to be very familiar with the likes of :ultmegaman::ultsimon::ultbanjokazooie:, despite their being owned by third parties, because they were major Nintendo exclusives.

Personally I think the best measure of iconography is how well known the character or franchise is outside of the gaming population. It's nothing special if someone who's been a gamer their whole life knows a video game character. If Grandma knows who it is, that's a measurable societal impact.
 

Blue__Falcon

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Why is it so wrong to want one of the biggest villains in gaming to be a little more faithful to source material?
I never said theres anything wrong with adding death man's volley to his moveset, i clearly said that a character not having every reference in their moveset isnt enough to butcher said character. Were talking about a character whos source material is a magic ball and one punch to the ground that causes an earthquake. Zelda had next to no source material to go off on, she used magic items that Link used in oot. You lose sleep over that aswell?
Like I get that I'm arguing with a C. Falcon main named Blue_Falcon but come on now. Ganondorf is literally the only villain in Smash Bros who has to deal with this crap.
Oh boo hoo, Ganondorf doesn't have 2 references squeezed into his moveset and shares a moveset with Captain Falcon despite functioning completely different. Big whoop, start talking to me about Ganondorf being butchered when hes gets mistreated the same way as Wario.
 

Lenidem

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I never said theres anything wrong with adding death man's volley to his moveset, i clearly said that a character not having every reference in their moveset isnt enough to butcher said character. Were talking about a character whos source material is a magic ball and one punch to the ground that causes an earthquake. Zelda had next to no source material to go off on, she used magic items that Link used in oot. You lose sleep over that aswell?
When Melee came out, Zelda had no move of her own. So they gave her magical moves used by Link in Ocarina of Time, which makes total sense. At the same time, if you had asked anyone "what does Ganondorf do in Ocarina of Time", the answer would have been: "he floats in the air and throws fireballs at you". But they gave him punches and kicks and nothing else... That's a completely different situation.


Oh boo hoo, Ganondorf doesn't have 2 references squeezed into his moveset and shares a moveset with Captain Falcon despite functioning completely different. Big whoop, start talking to me about Ganondorf being butchered when hes gets mistreated the same way as Wario.
The fact that there is worse doesn't mean that it's good.
 

UserKev

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What I can say, Ganondorf could have had a interestingly fleshed out moveset if inspired heavily from his boss fights. Make Dead Man's Volley a slow start up projectile, ignoring its hit back gimmick and the ground pound as his air down B with slow end lag.

This is the Ganondorf I want.
 

Blue__Falcon

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When Melee came out, Zelda had no move of her own. So they gave her magical moves used by Link in Ocarina of Time, which makes total sense. At the same time, if you had asked anyone "what does Ganondorf do in Ocarina of Time", the answer would have been: "he floats in the air and throws fireballs at you". But they gave him punches and kicks and nothing else... That's a completely different situation.


The fact that there is worse doesn't mean that it's good.
Well then lets agree to disagree then because im not in the mood to repeat myself 500 times.
Ganondorf in smash is still powerful, heavy, intimidating, vicous, and uses dark magic. His side special speak the most volumes. Ganondorf grabs his opponents by their throats and chokes them with dark magic and in the air he smashes their heads into the ground.
Like you cannot fathom a character thats so powerful that he shakes the earth with one punch and uses dark magic would use the warlock punch. No you literally have to see it with your own two eyes that Ganondorf does something similair to the warlock punch in a Zelda game for him to look fine.
I already said my piece and you said yours.
 
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I never said theres anything wrong with adding death man's volley to his moveset, i clearly said that a character not having every reference in their moveset isnt enough to butcher said character. Were talking about a character whos source material is a magic ball and one punch to the ground that causes an earthquake. Zelda had next to no source material to go off on, she used magic items that Link used in oot. You lose sleep over that aswell?
Zelda needed creative liberties to work, so no I can actually understand why she has the moveset she has. Also lol at you pretending there aren't multiple other games they could pull moves from for Ganondorf, not that they would even need too either. Even then what is the damn holdup on getting that "magic ball and one punch to the ground that causes an earthquake"?

Oh boo hoo, Ganondorf doesn't have 2 references squeezed into his moveset and shares a moveset with Captain Falcon despite functioning completely different. Big whoop, start talking to me about Ganondorf being butchered when hes gets mistreated the same way as Wario.
Hahaha what's really funny here is that Wario still takes more from the Wario Land games than Ganondorf takes from any of his own games.
 

Blue__Falcon

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Zelda needed creative liberties to work, so no I can actually understand why she has the moveset she has.
Okay you can understand Zelda being able to use these magic items but youre suspension of disbelief is broken over Ganondorf sharing a moveset with Captain Falcon despite the 2 of them functioning differently?
Also lol at you pretending there aren't multiple other games they could pull moves from for Ganondorf, not that they would even need too either.
Its hilarious how you wanna act all condenscending when youre the one that lost the context of my comment so quickly lmao. I was soley talking about their oot versions.

Even then what is the damn holdup on getting that "magic ball and one punch to the ground that causes an earthquake"?
What part off
I never said theres anything wrong with adding death man's volley to his moveset, i clearly said that a character not having every reference in their moveset isnt enough to butcher said character.
Do you not understand?
Hahaha what's really funny here is that Wario still takes more from the Wario Land games than Ganondorf takes from any of his own games.
You say that like it means something lmao. Like wow, Wario has a few moves from Wario Land, as if that supposed to change the fact that his main series gets treated like the cheap spin off and vice versa.
 
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Xelrog

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What I can say, Ganondorf could have had a interestingly fleshed out moveset if inspired heavily from his boss fights. Make Dead Man's Volley a slow start up projectile, ignoring its hit back gimmick and the ground pound as his air down B with slow end lag.
But if it doesn't reflect, then it's not Dead Man's Volley. That's kind of the most consistent thing there's been about Ganondorf over the years. The ball that reflects back.

Zelda needed creative liberties to work, so no I can actually understand why she has the moveset she has. Also lol at you pretending there aren't multiple other games they could pull moves from for Ganondorf, not that they would even need too either.
What do you mean, "not that they would even need to?" He does two things in OoT. In Wind Waker he has swords, and that's all he uses. Just swords and brutality. Which sounds kind of familiar now that I'm saying it out loud.
 
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Lenidem

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Okay you can understand Zelda being able to use these magic items but youre suspension of disbelief is broken over Ganondorf sharing a moveset with Captain Falcon despite the 2 of them functioning differently?
At least Zelda's move come from a Zelda game, and she's not a (semi-)clone of, say, princess Peach.
 
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Okay you can understand Zelda being able to use these magic items but youre suspension of disbelief is broken over Ganondorf sharing a moveset with Captain Falcon despite the 2 of them functioning differently?
"Wow you think Ganondorf not having a single move from any of his games despite having an ample selection to choose from seems odd?"

Yes, yes I do.

Gee its almost as if i was soley talking about oot Ganondorf.
Still has enough to work with for a better moveset lol.

What part off

Do you not understand?
Ok? And? Just because you don't consider it butchering doesn't mean nobody else does.

You say that like it means something lmao. Like wow, Wario has a few moves from Wario Land, as if that supposed to change the fact that his main series gets treated like the cheap spin off and vice versa.
Ganondorf get's treated like a cheap spinoff of Captain Falcon so I'd imagine you'd be a little more understanding here lol.
 
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If you can't pick up K. Rool's cannonballs, then they aren't K. Rool's cannonballs.

What do you mean, "not that they would even need to?" He does two things in OoT. In Wind Waker he has swords, and that's all he uses. Just swords and brutality. Which sounds kind of familiar now that I'm saying it out loud.
He's done more than just what you see in his boss fight. Not a surprise a Falcondorf defender hasn't actually played the game lmao.
 
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Blue__Falcon

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"Wow you think Ganondorf not having a single move from any of his games despite having an ample selection to choose from seems odd?"

Yes, yes I do.
Ganondorf in smash is still powerful, heavy, intimidating, vicous, and uses dark magic. His side special speak the most volumes. Ganondorf grabs his opponents by their throats and chokes them with dark magic and in the air he smashes their heads into the ground.
Yeah because splitting hairs about fire and dark magic is solid evidence that Ganondorf is butchered into a flashy and heroic bounty hunter, right?

Like you cannot fathom a character thats so powerful that he shakes the earth with one punch and uses dark magic would use the warlock punch. No you literally have to see it with your own two eyes that Ganondorf does something similair to the warlock punch in a Zelda game for him to look fine.
Youre literally repeating the same things i already addressed.
Ok? And? Just because you don't consider it butchering doesn't mean nobody else does.
Yeah and youre so open minded when it comes to different opinions, right?
I asked for a purple Falcon Punch, not your edited sideways nonsense.

I swear it's like you people get off on being purposefully obtuse.
It's so damn tiresome to see at this point and even more tiresome to see people actually defending it to the point of making up headcanons to justify it.
Ganondorf get's treated like a cheap spinoff of Captain Falcon so I'd imagine you'd be a little more understanding here lol.
Why would i sympethize with someone thats overreacting over 2 moves? All i can say boo hoo. Man i WISH a character missing 2 moves was my biggest concern.
 
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Youre literally repeating the same things i already addressed.
Maybe if you didn't address them in such a poor way I wouldn't need to repeat them.

Yeah and youre so open minded when it comes to different opinions, right?
Saying that Ganondorf takes nothing from the actual Zelda games isn't an opinion though lol.

Why would i sympethize with someone thats overreacting over 2 moves? All i can say boo hoo. Man i WISH a character missing 2 moves was my biggest concern.
Boo hoo, Wario farts instead of flexes and counts his money.
 

Blue__Falcon

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User was warned for this post
Maybe if you didn't address them in such a poor way I wouldn't need to repeat them.
Or maybe you need to learn how to read. Clearly huge walls of text is too much for you handle lmao.


Boo hoo, Wario farts instead of flexes and counts his money.
All the more proof at how pea brained you are if thats all you proccesed lmao.
 
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Or maybe you need to learn how to read. Clearly huge walls of text is too much for you handle lmao.
All you've said in those huge walls of text is "b-b-but Wario". Please feel free to reiterate whatever profound knowledge you think you've shared that must have gotten lost in those huge walls of text of your's.

All the more proof at how pea brained you are if thats all you proccesed lmao.
So what are you referring to with Wario Land if it's not Wario's moveset or behavior?
 

Blue__Falcon

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Please feel free to reiterate whatever profound knowledge you think you've shared that must have gotten lost in those huge walls of text of your's.
Heres a better idea, how about you quote the part you dont understand and i'll explain to you as simple as simple can be. Since you wanna make the bold claim i "address things in a poor manner". No bub, you have no reading comprehension.

All you've said in those huge walls of text is "b-b-but Wario".
This literally proves my point that you cant read properly. Where in any of these texts do you see Wario?
Ganondorf in smash is still powerful, heavy, intimidating, vicous, and uses dark magic. His side special speak the most volumes. Ganondorf grabs his opponents by their throats and chokes them with dark magic and in the air he smashes their heads into the ground.
Yeah because splitting hairs about fire and dark magic is solid evidence that Ganondorf is butchered into a flashy and heroic bounty hunter, right?

Until you've higlighted what you dont understand im not gonna continue this meaningless argument. And even if you do highlight the part you dont understand do everyone a favor and continue this in the pm.
 

Ahm Skittish!

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Literally no one cares, dude.
I do. That's why I don't think the move works well in Smash. If it doesn't reflect, it's a complete misinterpretation of why the move ever existed. Hell, Ganondorf only used it because it was a boss fight move that Agnahim started. Phantom Ganon uses it more often than Ganondorf does too, and that's saying something. It's a great move and all, and absolutely could be workable in Smash, but it being reflectable is one of the most important properties of it. Actually, I think the term Volley is meant to come from Volleyball, which more or less describes the idea(though to be fair, Tennis and Volleyball have a similar premise in how they work). It's a common move in the Zelda series that bosses use. What's less common is the need for Light Arrows during these fights.

Another thing is that sometimes when Dead Man's Volley is used, there's an alternate way to reflect it(the Bug-Catching Net and the Bottle in ALTTP and OOT respectively). It's not meant to be Reflectable by something like a shield either, a unique variation of what'd you expect. Especially since it's an energy projectile. Instead, it requires you to use a weapon to reflect it. How Smash decides to make it reflectable is a different story. As some neither have weapons nor reflection tools like a Mirror Shield, Orbitars, the literal Reflector, etc. And then you have full-out weapon users(unlike with Ness' bat). So a big part is figuring out what should and should not reflect it while making it balanced against multiple members of the cast. There's a lot to do to make the move work well, while keeping the entire point of the move's existence in the first place. Taking too many liberties just for the sake of having the move would be tacking it on. Especially since it's never been a Ganondorf-specific move, just something he borrowed from a previous character. It's not even his signature ability, which is actually "turning into Ganon" moreso than anything. The games heavily change it up. Like how WW Ganondorf is an agile character who clearly can box very well and is a strong dual-sword wielder, combined with other physical strength abilities(a chokehold) and still knows his way around magic, though it's not made too clear how Puppet Ganon came to be. It is the only one who isn't simply a beast/Dark World form, but a completely unique variant, possibly reflecting how Ganondorf is looking at the state of things, seeing his entire race but himself dead, etc. He's not just "evil".
 

UserKev

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I do. That's why I don't think the move works well in Smash. If it doesn't reflect, it's a complete misinterpretation of why the move ever existed. Hell, Ganondorf only used it because it was a boss fight move that Agnahim started. Phantom Ganon uses it more often than Ganondorf does too, and that's saying something. It's a great move and all, and absolutely could be workable in Smash, but it being reflectable is one of the most important properties of it. Actually, I think the term Volley is meant to come from Volleyball, which more or less describes the idea(though to be fair, Tennis and Volleyball have a similar premise in how they work). It's a common move in the Zelda series that bosses use. What's less common is the need for Light Arrows during these fights.

Another thing is that sometimes when Dead Man's Volley is used, there's an alternate way to reflect it(the Bug-Catching Net and the Bottle in ALTTP and OOT respectively). It's not meant to be Reflectable by something like a shield either, a unique variation of what'd you expect. Especially since it's an energy projectile. Instead, it requires you to use a weapon to reflect it. How Smash decides to make it reflectable is a different story. As some neither have weapons nor reflection tools like a Mirror Shield, Orbitars, the literal Reflector, etc. And then you have full-out weapon users(unlike with Ness' bat). So a big part is figuring out what should and should not reflect it while making it balanced against multiple members of the cast. There's a lot to do to make the move work well, while keeping the entire point of the move's existence in the first place. Taking too many liberties just for the sake of having the move would be tacking it on. Especially since it's never been a Ganondorf-specific move, just something he borrowed from a previous character. It's not even his signature ability, which is actually "turning into Ganon" moreso than anything. The games heavily change it up. Like how WW Ganondorf is an agile character who clearly can box very well and is a strong dual-sword wielder, combined with other physical strength abilities(a chokehold) and still knows his way around magic, though it's not made too clear how Puppet Ganon came to be. It is the only one who isn't simply a beast/Dark World form, but a completely unique variant, possibly reflecting how Ganondorf is looking at the state of things, seeing his entire race but himself dead, etc. He's not just "evil".
Not being rude, miss, but this is another example of being too literal. Its the equivalent to how Kirby's natural B should be near unavoidable or Shulk's Monado functions, but, we're used to it due to the reference it gets out. It bothers you now, but it won't once if its to be apart of Ganondorf's moveset revamp at some point. I mean, characters with reflectors can reflect the projectile if you really want to go for a more traditional sense.

A character's signature gimmick should never follow its full canon material, people. :facepalm:
 

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Not being rude, miss, but this is another example of being too literal. Its the equivalent to how Kirby's natural B should be near unavoidable or Shulk's Monado functions, but, we're used to it due to the reference it gets out. It bothers you now, but it won't once if its to be apart of Ganondorf's moveset revamp at some point. I mean, characters with reflectors can reflect the projectile if you really want to go for a more traditional sense.

A character's signature gimmick should never follow its full canon material, people. :facepalm:
I never played Xenoblade, to be fair. So the comparison is lost on me(but I do think the move works in an interesting manner that shows off how RPG buffs can work, which seems the whole point. Plus, he does have a unique time-based counter too).. That's also not a good point for Kirby's Inhale. The actual key point of it is able to eat enemies as well as sometimes gain their powers and shoot them out. Being unavoidable is an easy gameplay mechanic to remove that doesn't really hurt how the actual move works. That's literally the whole point of Dead Man's Volley. It's a volley you can reflect. Without it, it's just a completely unnotable projectile that is there for the sake of it. There's better ways to do it. Just making it harder to reflect is fine too(in fact, the timing can be brutal in OOT, compared to ALTTP and WW, where it's way easier). You don't need to have inherent weapon hits do so, like it could be Forward Smash moves in general, while not completely missing the point.

It's still not a signature move of his either way. That'd be implying he's the only one to use it, when at best it was among Ganon-related characters, but it's added to tons of boss fights. "Signature" is pretty clearly not the case. It's not even a signature "Ganon-related" move anymore like it used to be. It should be, but it isn't. But that's also ignoring Ganondorf used it once and never again, where Phantom Ganon uses it in two separate games, so it's actually more related to that character than Dorf himself. Agnahim also uses it twice in his own game, but his shadow variant uses it in LA too. So again, we see it more often on various others than Ganondorf himself, who is a one-shot usage of it in any given game. It'd be neat if he actually used it again in a Zelda game, but it doesn't change it's not a signature ability of his at all.

It would still bother me if it was impossible to reflect, however. Because that's the point. I wasn't bothered by Ganondorf being Falcon-lite because he was not only just fun to play as, but it was before I analyzed movesets. But then I realized he's all about power, and being non-canon moves, it's pretty impossible to "get them wrong". I also hate how FLUDD is a boring move with no real applications beyond Edge Guarding. It could've been actually useful by design, like letting you change into a variant of B moves that using the Hover, Rocket, and Turbo. That's what I was hoping to see a long time ago.
 

kaithehedgefox

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Joker is not going to be turned into an Assist Trophy, deal with it.
I know it's already too late for Joker/Ren to be an assist trophy, but we could still have both bomberman and Joker/Ren in Smash 6. And yes I can deal with that.
 
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Idon

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I know it's already too late for Joker/Ren to be an assist trophy, but we could still have both bomberman and Joker/Ren in Smash 6. And yes I can deal with that.
If they attain the rights to Joker again, I don't see why they wouldn't just reuse assets and make him another playable character.
 

Lenidem

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I never played Xenoblade, to be fair. So the comparison is lost on me(but I do think the move works in an interesting manner that shows off how RPG buffs can work, which seems the whole point. Plus, he does have a unique time-based counter too).. That's also not a good point for Kirby's Inhale. The actual key point of it is able to eat enemies as well as sometimes gain their powers and shoot them out. Being unavoidable is an easy gameplay mechanic to remove that doesn't really hurt how the actual move works. That's literally the whole point of Dead Man's Volley. It's a volley you can reflect. Without it, it's just a completely unnotable projectile that is there for the sake of it. There's better ways to do it. Just making it harder to reflect is fine too(in fact, the timing can be brutal in OOT, compared to ALTTP and WW, where it's way easier). You don't need to have inherent weapon hits do so, like it could be Forward Smash moves in general, while not completely missing the point.

It's still not a signature move of his either way. That'd be implying he's the only one to use it, when at best it was among Ganon-related characters, but it's added to tons of boss fights. "Signature" is pretty clearly not the case. It's not even a signature "Ganon-related" move anymore like it used to be. It should be, but it isn't. But that's also ignoring Ganondorf used it once and never again, where Phantom Ganon uses it in two separate games, so it's actually more related to that character than Dorf himself. Agnahim also uses it twice in his own game, but his shadow variant uses it in LA too. So again, we see it more often on various others than Ganondorf himself, who is a one-shot usage of it in any given game. It'd be neat if he actually used it again in a Zelda game, but it doesn't change it's not a signature ability of his at all.

It would still bother me if it was impossible to reflect, however. Because that's the point. I wasn't bothered by Ganondorf being Falcon-lite because he was not only just fun to play as, but it was before I analyzed movesets. But then I realized he's all about power, and being non-canon moves, it's pretty impossible to "get them wrong". I also hate how FLUDD is a boring move with no real applications beyond Edge Guarding. It could've been actually useful by design, like letting you change into a variant of B moves that using the Hover, Rocket, and Turbo. That's what I was hoping to see a long time ago.
I think Ganondorf is still well remembered for the end of Ocarina. But still, considering the fact that this move is indeed used by several ennemies (amongst whom I count the Phantoms as Ganondorf's litteral clones, so in my opinion he can do everything they do), I see that as another reason to put the move into Smash: the move itself is 'iconic' (forgive the expression) to the Zelda serie.
 
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I gave up on a "fixed" Ganondorf a long time ago, so I'm currently hoping that we get a separate playable incarnation of Ganon instead.

It's been more than 17 years since Melee came out. In all that time, Sakurai has made concessions in changing a couple attacks here and there, and in Smash Ultimate changed his smash attacks to use the Spaceworld 2000 tech demo sword, which, yeah, is not even from an actual Zelda game. At this rate, at this point, we will never get a "fixed" Ganondorf, because it would have happened by now.

It's best to move on. Smash Ultimate has made lots of things thought impossible, possible. But I think that Sakurai would still never resort to completely changing a pre-existing character's moveset, only making adjustments to it.

At least we have the Doriyah to play around with.
 

Ahm Skittish!

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I think Ganondorf is still well remembered for the end of Ocarina. But still, considering the fact that this move is indeed used by several ennemies (amongst whom I count the Phantoms as Ganondorf's litteral clones, so in my opinion he can do everything they do), I see that as another reason to put the move into Smash: the move itself is 'iconic' (forgive the expression) to the Zelda serie.
As long as it actually is like the move(reflectable), then sure. But there's better ways to include it than something that meshes poorly with Ganondorf's moveset. There's multiple Zelda characters. Including tons of villains who are way faster and teleport around, who could utilize it far better.

It's also not that iconic to the Zelda series, though it sees decent use and it took till the DS games to even get an in-game reference by name. It's honestly most memorable for Agnahim too, as that's his original signature ability. Blue Lightning and his Energy Balls are the other two, for a trio of strong attacks. It doesn't help that Phantom Ganon did more in the boss fight overall, by having it in two phases. Ganondorf and Ganon are technically the same boss fight, but they are so vastly different in... everything they do, it's not really worth calling it the same boss at all. It's literally "play tennis for a bit, fire Light Arrows, Longshot/Jump and then attack." Even the Twinrova fight had two inherent phases. Sure, some bosses were super short too and all, but Ganondorf's personal boss fight is pretty underwhelming outside of the 3D factor.

It is weird Dead Man's Volley never gets used again by any new versions of Ganon-related foes(kind of, as Ganon isn't truly new in ALBW). Phantom Ganon in WW is basically Agnahim + OOT Phantom Ganon in its presentation(floating around and teleporting). Beyond that, you have the Cubus Sisters, Ghirahim(who actually sounds like a really good user of it in Smash, which fits his style a lot better), Twinrova(in their Oracles version), Puppet Zelda(this somewhat relates to Ganon), Lady Maud(Tri-Force Heroes), Gouen(Four Swords), Vaati, Bilocyte, Yuga Ganon(the closest to regular Ganon using it) and Agnahim's Shadow(though I mentioned the last one a bit earlier). Even Ganon could potentially use it since Yuga Ganon did, as Ganon is way more notable for projectile use than Ganondorf is(who is generally brute strength and swords way more often... which is mainly what he does in Smash, even though they never got his sword working in Melee, it does have the assets there, and is clearly shown in his silhouette along with the victory screens. There's some references to him having a sword in each game, till Ultimate gave full usage).
 
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You two are being really needlessly rude about this.
Coming from the guy who posted this lol.
"You want to do what? You want to COMBINE your magic punch with the color purple? Egad! You're a madman, Ganon! Why, you'll tear the fabric of reality asunder!"
Either way thanks for confirming you haven't actually played the game.

Until you've higlighted what you dont understand im not gonna continue this meaningless argument.
Suits me just fine. Concession accepted.

I do. That's why I don't think the move works well in Smash. If it doesn't reflect, it's a complete misinterpretation of why the move ever existed.
We already have moves that function only partially like they do in their home games. But no, let's just single out Ganondorf because god forbid we ever have a reason to push the B button.
 
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Ignoring the recent Ganondorf fanfiction that's been floating around, here's a super unpopular one of mine:

Anime is an ambiguous art style and shouldn't be used to classify larges chunks of characters. There's more "serious" anime art styles like Fire Emblem and Xenoblade, cartoony-style art like Dragon Ball, cel-shaded art as seen in Zelda, and even more classifications like the styles seen in Persona. I don't see the logic anymore behind throwing the most recent anime newcomer, The Hero, in the "welp just anuddah weeb fighter, too much anime amirite" group. Frankly it's disrespectful to the artists who worked hard on designing the character (and any other anime character victim to this fallacy) as well as the fans who really wanted said character in the game.

Honestly, :ultlink::ulthero::ultjoker::ulttoonlink: all look completely different; there's no way you can possibly tell be they're all "just anime fighters." Besides, in Japan technically all of the fighters in the game (save :ultbanjokazooie::ultdiddy::ultkrool: since they were created outside of Japan) are anime since IIRC the definition of anime thre engulfs all forms of animation, including cartoons or lighter art styles.
 
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Honestly, :ultlink::ulthero::ultjoker::ulttoonlink: all look completely different; there's no way you can possibly tell be they're all "just anime fighters." Besides, in Japan technically all of the fighters in the game (save :ultbanjokazooie::ultdiddy::ultkrool: since they were created outside of Japan) are anime since IIRC the definition of anime thre engulfs all forms of animation, including cartoons or lighter art styles.
Don't forget :ultdarksamus: made by American developer Retro Studios.
 

Xelrog

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Besides, in Japan technically all of the fighters in the game (save :ultbanjokazooie::ultdiddy::ultkrool: since they were created outside of Japan) are anime since IIRC the definition of anime thre engulfs all forms of animation, including cartoons or lighter art styles.
It does, but the reason we English speakers go out of our way to use the Japanese word is because we're referring specifically to Japanese animation. It's the same situation as the Spanish word "salsa."
 
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I think Sheik gets way too much criticism from the community. She's an extremely solid and unique character who has become a bit of a main stay of Zelda lore even if she didn't do too much in the original Ocarina. She still represents one of the most iconic pieces of that incredibly iconic game. Sure, she needs some serious damage buffs because she's way too weak in Ultimate (something a lot of combo type characters suffer from), but she's somehow one of only two ninjas on the roster and that alone should qualify her to stay around for as long as possible.

I don't know if it's really unpopular, but if we got Impa, I'd love for her to be a heavier semi-clone of Shiek that took Ganondorf's sword attacks Smashes and pretty much just let her be Impa from Hyrule Warriors. I'm not sure how you balance that besides turn Shiek's power up for certain moves and tone down the Sword from Ganondorf, but I'm sure there's a way to do it. Smash could stand to take so much from Hyrule Warriors period though, because the Definitive Edition of that game is one of the few to genuinely rival Ultimate for content and fan service on Switch haha.

And speaking of Zelda newcomers, my least favorite options are Breath of the Wild characters like the Champions. They're fine, but there's so many more interesting and compelling characters from the series to choose from.
 

Sebas22

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About the current topics: I think Ganondorf and Wario are cool the way they are. Also iconicness is not something that affects whether someone gets in the game or not.

And to add something of my own: I'm not against people voicing their support for characters they want in the game. But when the argument in favor is "great moveset potential", I just :facepalm:
 

Xeno610

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I have two separate opinions that really form into one giant opinion.

First off, I don't mind if the rest of the Fighters Pass consisted of third party characters. As we've seen before, third party characters can bring a lot to the table in regards to their moveset and content that they bring with them, like stages, Spirits, and music. Of course, I don't want any third parties to be thrown in, as I think the popularity and legacy of a franchise and/or character should be taken into consideration.

Which leads into my second opinion. In terms of first party characters, I think we are very close to reaching the bottom of the barrel in terms of first parties. I assume that Assist Trophies won't make the jump because we haven't had an Assist become playable in the same game. Namely, all I see left worth of value from first parties that aren't ATs are Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong (they are Spirits, but they can make the jump like Mewtwo and Lucas in Smash 4 IMO); I would also throw in Rex & Pyra, but they are in a sticky situation with what Sakurai has mentioned; Fiora and Toad could also make the jump if Chrom has proven anything, but they are more tricky to implement than Chrom IMO (Chrom was an easy Echo, it's harder for Fiora and Toad). I might be forgetting a few, but I feel like the rest of the possible characters are either pretty unknown or kinda niche (like Saki). Lastly, I think the ship has sailed for a 3H character and I don't think we will see Byleth or Edelgard.

tl;dr Third parties are cool and I would love to see more. For first parties, aside from a handful left to add, I think we have reached the bottom of the barrel.
 
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I have two separate opinions that really form into one giant opinion.

First off, I don't mind if the rest of the Fighters Pass consisted of third party characters. As we've seen before, third party characters can bring a lot to the table in regards to their moveset and content that they bring with them, like stages, Spirits, and music. Of course, I don't want any third parties to be thrown in, as I think the popularity and legacy of a franchise and/or character should be taken into consideration.

Which leads into my second opinion. In terms of first party characters, I think we are very close to reaching the bottom of the barrel in terms of first parties. I assume that Assist Trophies won't make the jump because we haven't had an Assist become playable in the same game. Namely, all I see left worth of value from first parties that aren't ATs are Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong (they are Spirits, but they can make the jump like Mewtwo and Lucas in Smash 4 IMO); I would also throw in Rex & Pyra, but they are in a sticky situation with what Sakurai has mentioned; Fiora and Toad could also make the jump if Chrom has proven anything, but they are more tricky to implement than Chrom IMO (Chrom was an easy Echo, it's harder for Fiora and Toad). I might be forgetting a few, but I feel like the rest of the possible characters are either pretty unknown or kinda niche (like Saki). Lastly, I think the ship has sailed for a 3H character and I don't think we will see Byleth or Edelgard.

tl;dr Third parties are cool and I would love to see more. For first parties, aside from a handful left to add, I think we have reached the bottom of the barrel.
Wait, how can the ship have sailed for a game that isn't even out??? I certainly don't expect a Three Houses newcomer, but it's also not impossible given that they were showing off the game last E3 during a period when DLC was being chosen and Nintendo tends to communicate their major upcoming projects to Sakurai pretty well anyway.
 
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Xelrog

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And to add something of my own: I'm not against people voicing their support for characters they want in the game. But when the argument in favor is "great moveset potential", I just :facepalm:
Can you elaborate? Why would moveset potential not be an important factor for a newcomer? Particularly since Sakurai has stated outright that he and the devs gravitate towards characters that would bring a new and unique playstyle to the game.

It's not that a lack of anything too crazy is a killer--Banjo looks like a pretty traditional fighter. But it's not a non-factor.
 
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