Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

[Deleted member]

I think Akira Toriyama's character designs are objectively bad and ridiculously ugly. On top of that, the sword used by the Luminary in Dragon Quest 11 blatantly rips off the design of Glamdring from the Lord of the Rings. Did he think no one would notice? Well I did.

I took a quick look at Glamdring, I really fail to see the similarities. Plus the Luminary sword is based on the one from Erdrick from DQIII which is also in the game. If you have a photo of the sword where it shows its similarities, I would like to see it.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

On top of that, the sword used by the Luminary in Dragon Quest 11 blatantly rips off the design of Glamdring from the Lord of the Rings.

What? How?

The sword looks nothing like Glamdring. The movie version certainly doesn't look like his and the closest thing I could find is this obscure art for a lord of the rings card game, and even then the only thing that's even remotely similar is the coloring.

 

[Xelrog]

Unpopular opinion: "Looking cool, Joker" is an annoying taunt, and Joker himself isn't cool. I know nothing about Persona but the way he acts and the way everyone else in the series treats him makes him come off as a Mary Sue. To an outsider he comes off as really full of himself and unlikable.

 

[Wiinner159]

I keep hearing this lack of lore, but that's never been true. Samus' story has always noted her athletic capabilities outside of her suit and the first canon thing about her in overall storyline is her as a little girl, well before the suit;

Spoiler

Watching Ridley murder her parents.

So excuse me if I don't buy this crap she has zero lore.

I don't think the argument here is that there is zero lore to back up ZSS's acrobatic abilities, it's just that there's no lore to suggest that her acrobatic abilities on their own help her with combat. You can be extraordinarily flexible and be able to climb and jump around like no person could, but that doesn't inherently mean you're good at combat. Also I don't see why your spoiler has anything to do with proving Samus' athletics, that event just sort of happens, she's merely a spectator, not a participant. You could argue it's motivation sure, but there's no way to prove it's that she'd be motivated to get physically strong enough to take revenge especially when the suit she's given later on provides her with more than enough firepower and abilities to do that instead.
Basically there is lore to support she's acrobatic, but none of that says her acrobatics help her in combat without the suit. She's flexible enough to fit into the morphball sure, but that flexibility doesn't just transfer straight to combat.
As for the discussion on whether she's a fun character or a good choice for the roster at the time I'm not really interested in that. That's a rabbit hole of endless speculation of "what ifs" that tends to just boil down to personal preferences.
In summary, as a moveset nothing of ZSS has to offer aside from the neutral b really convinces me of it being Samus due to the lack of connections and outright contradictions in game lore. And the reasoning for using lore in a game that generally ignores it is because it's a very special case of a character that is put in a specific state of helplessness. It's like if Eggplant Pit was a character, I'm sure they could make a fun and interesting moveset outta it, but it would just feel weird when it is in direct comparison to Pit in his default, healthy state.
If you like playing as Zero Suit, good for you. I just have my gripes with the concept

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't think the argument here is that there is zero lore to back up ZSS's acrobatic abilities, it's just that there's no lore to suggest that her acrobatic abilities on their own help her with combat. You can be extraordinarily flexible and be able to climb and jump around like no person could, but that doesn't inherently mean you're good at combat. Also I don't see why your spoiler has anything to do with proving Samus' athletics, that event just sort of happens, she's merely a spectator, not a participant. You could argue it's motivation sure, but there's no way to prove it's that she'd be motivated to get physically strong enough to take revenge especially when the suit she's given later on provides her with more than enough firepower and abilities to do that instead.
Basically there is lore to support she's acrobatic, but none of that says her acrobatics help her in combat without the suit. She's flexible enough to fit into the morphball sure, but that flexibility doesn't just transfer straight to combat.
As for the discussion on whether she's a fun character or a good choice for the roster at the time I'm not really interested in that. That's a rabbit hole of endless speculation of "what ifs" that tends to just boil down to personal preferences.
In summary, as a moveset nothing of ZSS has to offer aside from the neutral b really convinces me of it being Samus due to the lack of connections and outright contradictions in game lore. And the reasoning for using lore in a game that generally ignores it is because it's a very special case of a character that is put in a specific state of helplessness. It's like if Eggplant Pit was a character, I'm sure they could make a fun and interesting moveset outta it, but it would just feel weird when it is in direct comparison to Pit in his default, healthy state.
If you like playing as Zero Suit, good for you. I just have my gripes with the concept

Then you missed the point of the spoiler.

The point is that her not having a suit is a key part of her lore, which is vastly important. And yes, her being athletic was in the lore at all times. She didn't start with the suit. She was trained without it to be a strong mercenary. The suit is moreso because her abilities from the Chozo are difficult to use without the suit as is. The suit's main usage is more for harsh environments and does not really upgrade her athletic ability. She doesn't do a lot of athletic stuff within the suit alone as is either.

Though I did miss some of what you meant, which is that she hasn't shown being capable of officially fighting in lore. However, I don't agree whatsoever she's incapable of defending herself either. She still is, just weakly so... against beings that are severely powerful and that she needs the suit to fight those specific ones. It says nothing of how strong she is outside of that particular situation, and let's be honest, somebody extremely athletic can decently defend themselves in a regular real life bad scenario. Having a healthy body, speed, powerful jump height, and lots of athletic training means you can definitely do something. Why is it so surprising an athletic woman can fully defend herself? Especially when the whip is literally the only thing that looks completely out of nowhere in Brawl, and was added just to up her abilities to use overall. Though as I said before, the rocket heels felt dumb. Despite actually being used outside of fanservice.

 

[osby]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Samus fighting without her armor when we have a fitness trainer and plant holding their own against Ganondorf or Palutena. It's not canonically logical, but Smash hardly ever makes sense within individual canons anyway.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

It kind of feels that most of the people here who dislike ZSS are jumping through several imaginary hoops and doing a lot of mental gymnastics to convince themselves that her addition has little justification other than shameless fanservice. Then there's the discrepancies in power level that people like to bring up, despite the fact that that was tossed out the window a long time ago when people like Peach, Mac, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, Duck Hunt, Villager, etc. have a fighting chance against Ganondorf, Ridley, Palutena, Bayonetta, Mewtwo and so on.
Needless to say, it comes off as hypocritical.

I don't think the argument here is that there is zero lore to back up ZSS's acrobatic abilities, it's just that there's no lore to suggest that her acrobatic abilities on their own help her with combat. You can be extraordinarily flexible and be able to climb and jump around like no person could, but that doesn't inherently mean you're good at combat. Also I don't see why your spoiler has anything to do with proving Samus' athletics, that event just sort of happens, she's merely a spectator, not a participant. You could argue it's motivation sure, but there's no way to prove it's that she'd be motivated to get physically strong enough to take revenge especially when the suit she's given later on provides her with more than enough firepower and abilities to do that instead.
Basically there is lore to support she's acrobatic, but none of that says her acrobatics help her in combat without the suit. She's flexible enough to fit into the morphball sure, but that flexibility doesn't just transfer straight to combat.
As for the discussion on whether she's a fun character or a good choice for the roster at the time I'm not really interested in that. That's a rabbit hole of endless speculation of "what ifs" that tends to just boil down to personal preferences.
In summary, as a moveset nothing of ZSS has to offer aside from the neutral b really convinces me of it being Samus due to the lack of connections and outright contradictions in game lore. And the reasoning for using lore in a game that generally ignores it is because it's a very special case of a character that is put in a specific state of helplessness. It's like if Eggplant Pit was a character, I'm sure they could make a fun and interesting moveset outta it, but it would just feel weird when it is in direct comparison to Pit in his default, healthy state.
If you like playing as Zero Suit, good for you. I just have my gripes with the concept

I don't know if you played the same Metroid games as I have then, because there is source and side material on her backstory supporting the fact the she is a capable warrior on her own. After becoming an orphan, she was adopted by the Chozo, infused with their DNA (which gave her superhuman abilities) and raised to become a warrior. Several members of the Chozo race were capable warriors as well. She also became part of the federation's military, meaning that she has also received combat training from them as well.

Also, acrobatics translate into fighting better than you think. An athlete who has flexibility but no combat training can take up a martial art and fare significantly better than an average person. I've no reason to think that she would be defenseless without her suit.

People constantly bring up the scenario in Zero Mission when she loses her suit and is left helpless, but often fail to analyze the circumstances. She was on enemy territory. unarmed and facing against several well-armed foes. No **** she had to rely on sneaking around rather than on a full frontal assault, but that doesn't undermine what she is capable of in hand-to-hand combat.
If you pit an unarmed Chuck Norris against an armed guerrilla, he is going to get gunned down before he can even throw his signature roundhouse kick.

So those gripes of yours feel silly and unjustified.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

It kind of feels that most of the people here who dislike ZSS are jumping through several imaginary hoops and doing a lot of mental gymnastics to convince themselves that her addition has little justification other than shameless fanservice. Then there's the discrepancies in power level that people like to bring up, despite the fact that that was tossed out the window a long time ago when people like Peach, Mac, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, Duck Hunt, Villager, etc. have a fighting chance against Ganondorf, Ridley, Palutena, Bayonetta, Mewtwo and so on.
Needless to say, it comes off as hypocritical.

Never mind Zelda, who's even worse than the other examples. Plus, as you pointed out, she's canonically a warrior outside of the suit. There is lore.

Though that said, I do agree with the fanservice part being an issue. There's no question her design is fairly bad, before the heels even. She's literally in a skintight suit and using a whip with a dominatrix design and voice. There's an issue with her presentation. Her moveset is fine, and she's a great and canon concept on her own. But I can vastly understand why people don't like her design(which is a different issue, and to be fair, I didn't see people hating on her character design, but her justification for being in). That said, they did actually reduce her proportions a bit in Ultimate to look like a more realistically designed woman. She was over the top in Brawl and 4. Now she looks far better. On the other hand, her two costumes actually look proper for athletic purposes, at least compared to her canon bikini, which just would be tasteless.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Never mind Zelda, who's even worse than the other examples. Plus, as you pointed out, she's canonically a warrior outside of the suit. There is lore.

Though that said, I do agree with the fanservice part being an issue. There's no question her design is fairly bad, before the heels even. She's literally in a skintight suit and using a whip with a dominatrix design and voice. There's an issue with her presentation. Her moveset is fine, and she's a great and canon concept on her own. But I can vastly understand why people don't like her design(which is a different issue, and to be fair, I didn't see people hating on her character design, but her justification for being in). That said, they did actually reduce her proportions a bit in Ultimate to look like a more realistically designed woman. She was over the top in Brawl and 4. Now she looks far better. On the other hand, her two costumes actually look proper for athletic purposes, at least compared to her canon bikini, which just would be tasteless.

I think people are too quick to assume ill intent behind the motivation of her inclusion. The heels that were added later might have been pointless and tasteless for some (I don't pay them much mind) but as someone has pointed out already, she was meant to add to gameplay by being the Sheik to Samus's Zelda.
Also, Sakurai released a book about his work on Smash a few years ago where he gave several characters including ZSS an archetype and modeled several of their moves using a toy. She is meant to be another take on an existing character that provides a different choice of gameplay. So fanservice or not, there was more thought put into her inclusion than just that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think people are too quick to assume ill intent behind the motivation of her inclusion. The heels that were added later might have been pointless and tasteless for some (I don't pay them much mind) but as someone has pointed out already, she was meant to add to gameplay by being the Sheik to Samus's Zelda.
Also, Sakurai released a book about his work on Smash a few years ago where he gave several characters including ZSS an archetype and modeled several of their moves using a toy. She is meant to be another take on an existing character that provides a different choice of gameplay. So fanservice or not, there was more thought put into her inclusion than just that.

Nobody was saying she was added for bad reasons at all.

What people are saying was that they do not like her design. The design isn't really that great.

Plus, I really don't remember anyone making the argument she was put in for fanservice reasons(just that they don't like what she ended up looking like, which is a different argument), so I don't know why you're bringing it up as if somebody was making that argument.

Also, I'd say she's more like the Zelda to Samus' Sheik. Samus, like Sheik, are noted as capable warriors in canon. With actual abilities transferred over to Smash from canon. ZSS and Zelda actually took way more liberties for moves in comparison. Also, keep in mind Sheik comes before Zelda officially when it came to additions. It's probably that he imagined Sheik way easier due to a fairly easy to create ninja archtype. Zelda required significantly more liberties does show this. There's an implication that Zelda was done second, but being shown off second doesn't necessarily mean that. One was clearly easier to imagine than the other. I mean, this is part of why Greninja got chosen immediately, due to being super easy to imagine how it'd play. Sakurai clearly has an easy time making ninja archtypes. My guess is he didn't have a lot of trouble imaging ZSS due to having an athletic body and easy to translate thoughts. Actually, it makes me wonder if he used Sheik as a base to make ZSS faster. They certainly do have some similarities.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Nobody was saying she was added for bad reasons at all.

What people are saying was that they do not like her design. The design isn't really that great.

Plus, I really don't remember anyone making the argument she was put in for fanservice reasons(just that they don't like what she ended up looking like, which is a different argument), so I don't know why you're bringing it up as if somebody was making that argument.

Also, I'd say she's more like the Zelda to Samus' Sheik. Samus, like Sheik, are noted as capable warriors in canon. With actual abilities transferred over to Smash from canon. ZSS and Zelda actually took way more liberties for moves in comparison. Also, keep in mind Sheik comes before Zelda officially when it came to additions. It's probably that he imagined Sheik way easier due to a fairly easy to create ninja archtype. Zelda required significantly more liberties does show this. There's an implication that Zelda was done second, but being shown off second doesn't necessarily mean that. One was clearly easier to imagine than the other. I mean, this is part of why Greninja got chosen immediately, due to being super easy to imagine how it'd play. Sakurai clearly has an easy time making ninja archtypes. My guess is he didn't have a lot of trouble imaging ZSS due to having an athletic body and easy to translate thoughts. Actually, it makes me wonder if he used Sheik as a base to make ZSS faster. They certainly do have some similarities.

I'm pretty sure some people a few pages back were arguing that her inclusion was just fanservice, which is why I brought it up.

I understand what you are illustrating with Zelda, but when I was comparing them I was simply referring to mechanic of changing from one moveset to another in the go, similar also to Pokemon Trainer.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm pretty sure some people a few pages back were arguing that her inclusion was just fanservice, which is why I brought it up.

I understand what you are illustrating with Zelda, but when I was comparing them I was simply referring to mechanic of changing from one moveset to another in the go, similar also to Pokemon Trainer.

In that case, it'd still be that Sheik came before Zelda officially. So it fits.

Anyway, I didn't notice that. That said, it might be better to not worry too much about that. I mean, if it's a ton of pages back, no need to respond to it any longer. They're already gone, etc.

I agree it's a bad argument, yeah.

 

[slrigeigdew]

That's not the point. The point is that it's a first step. It opens the door.



1) "Indie" isn't a genre.
2) No one wants one rep per genre. People want reps from new genres that aren't already in Smash. New things are interesting and enticing.

People don't want one rep per genre but they expect it. Similar to how people don't want only one rep per company but they expect every new dlc character to come from a different company. Both trains of thought are bs, people should support whoever they want.

Also, wanting a character that just happens to be from a genre unrepresented in smash is fine, my problem is when people use the genre itself as a selling point for said characters. It's arbitrary and a very weak argument for characters that otherwise have very solid reasoning behind their support.

 

[Brindor]

"The Hero" was such a lame choice for a name for the DQ characters
I get that it's the title given to them in the games, but they ARE given other titles besides Hero in their games (Erdrick, Solo, Luminary) from what I've read (I haven't played any DQ games.)

 

[Mamboo07]

Yoshi not getting a second rep is way overdue and like it's been 20 years and 4 previous games and it hasn't happened... Poor guy

64
2001
Melee
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
Brawl
2009
2010
2011
2012
2013
Wii U and 3ds
2015
2016
2017
Ultimate
All those previous years and still no newcomer for him...

 

[osby]

"The Hero" was such a lame choice for a name for the DQ characters
I get that it's the title given to them in the games, but they ARE given other titles besides Hero in their games (Erdrick, Solo, Luminary) from what I've read (I haven't played any DQ games.)

That wouldn't work at all. Solo and Eight aren't actual titles and Luminary is just "Yusha" in the Japanese version, roughly translated as Hero and shared by all DQ protagonists. Only Erdrick works as a canon, definitive name and even that is something he gains at the end of DQIII, it's not his default name.

 

[UserKev]

Adeleine is the most deserving Kirby rep not yet in Smash. She has approaching merit and unpredictability.
Bowser doesn't need a stage.
Wolf moveset wise is poorly executed, he feels lanky, too wild and uncontrollable.
Falco was better as a full clone. I feel like Falco has long since lost what made really him enjoyable.
Meowth is a cringy addition. Honestly, there's more deserving Pokémon.

 

[Mamboo07]

Adeleine is the most deserving Kirby rep not yet in Smash. She has approaching merit and unpredictability.
Bowser doesn't need a stage.
Wolf moveset wise is poorly executed, he feels lanky, too wild and uncontrollable.
Falco was better as a full clone. I feel like Falco has long since lost what made really him enjoyable.
Meowth is a cringy addition. Honestly, there's more deserving Pokémon.

I agree with the Poke'mon one if i had to pick each rep for gen 3/5/8 here's my choices:
Gen 3: Rayqauza, Swampert or Regi Trio
Gen 5: Haxorus
Gen 8: Zacian/Zamazenta (Both can switch out)

 

[Guynamednelson]

Meowth is a cringy addition. Honestly, there's more deserving Pokémon.

I think "cringy" is a bit too harsh, yet at the same time I think it's still hypocritical to think Jigglypuff is outdated yet Meowth over certain other Pokemon (ie: Eevee) isn't.

 

[UserKev]

I think "cringy" is a bit too harsh, yet at the same time I think it's still hypocritical to think Jigglypuff is outdated yet Meowth over certain other Pokemon (ie: Eevee) isn't.

Don't look at it in that context, its more of an annoyed reaction. Too harsh is if I flat out said I hated the character and don't want him in.

 

[slrigeigdew]

New characters having recycled attack animations isn't a big deal. It's happened in every game since 64 and will probably continue to happen long after Ultimate. This topic seems to come and go after every other new character get revealed and shortly after they're released before it never gets brought up again until the next character is released.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Meowth and Eevee aren't really outdated though when both featured heavily in the last game and are both currently present in the anime in major roles.

Also they've been able to remain relevant and popular for 25+ years. Only a handful of Pokémon manage anywhere near that level of lasting popularity. Hell, not even all the gen starters manage that.

Personally I think picking a Pokémon purely to 'rep a gen' is a worse choice than picking Pokémon with proven popularity and appeal, which is why the inevitable Pokémon pick of the latest Smash game always feels incredibly hollow to me.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Meowth and Eevee aren't really outdated though when both featured heavily in the last game and are both currently present in the anime in major roles.

What I mean by "outdated" is that Meowth isn't really a focus in marketing anymore, while The Pokemon Company loves pandering to the popularity of the Eevee family.

 

[Deleted member]

A functional character design can't be "objectively bad". This is art we are talking about, not science.

I disagree. And I think by saying that no art can be bad, you cheapen the craft and skill of artists who do objectively better work than others. Don't be ignorant and call all art equal, even if you personally can't discern or appreciate the difference.

What? How?

The sword looks nothing like Glamdring. The movie version certainly doesn't look like his and the closest thing I could find is this obscure art for a lord of the rings card game, and even then the only thing that's even remotely similar is the coloring.

Wow I guess I need to do everything myself. THIS ONE, obviously:

Spoiler

 

[osby]

I disagree. And I think by saying that no art can be bad, you cheapen the craft and skill of artists who do objectively better work than others. Don't be ignorant and call all art equal, even if you personally can't discern or appreciate the difference.

Please don't put words into my mouth.

"Objectively" is a strong word. It's used to talk about undisputable facts that can be proven by empirical data. By insisting on using it to talk about how pleasant looking an artist's work, you're both cheapening the word and acting like your tastes are somehow better than the others.

I can appreciate good art from bad art and I personally think Toriyama's art is fine. It's an harmless opinion and it's not going to change because of some internet rando telling me he's right and I'm wrong.

And honestly, when you resort to insulting other people's opinions or present yours as facts, it makes you look insecure about your own ideas. Just say you don't like Toriyama's art, say why (or don't, I don't care) and move on. Nobody has to agree with you.

 

[Xelrog]

wanting a character that just happens to be from a genre unrepresented in smash is fine, my problem is when people use the genre itself as a selling point for said characters. It's arbitrary and a very weak argument for characters that otherwise have very solid reasoning behind their support.

Well then I just plain disagree. Variety is excellent for any game and a far better point of consideration for inclusion than a disorganized mob of people shouting for garbage nobody characters to be included.

 

[ze9]

Here's some more.

-I don't mind being an echo at all. She floats and she moves creepily so she still feels very much in character, and I think that the Smash moveset fits her better than it fits Samus, with the floatiness and all those scattershots. She just feels a bit nerfed in comparision to her canon abilities, but that goes for Samus and Ridley too
-'s default costume should have been Erdrick. That's only for historical reasons, though. They all have good to great designs
-I'm just in love with Ultimate's newcomer roster. The 4 fan favorites () are a big selling point, but the others also all feel so varied and colorful, like Smash characters should be. are obvious, but I'm still amazed by what they did with and , and I use a lot.also feels fresh
-Despite this, I still can't get over the fact that Dixie's not here
-Also, I still haven't warmed up to a good chunk of Smash 4's newcomers (), and by now I probably never will. That selection was really bad to me. They're all so samey and boring, especially compared to Ultimate (and Brawl)'s newcomers. would kinda fall into this, too, but he 100% deserved his spot and I liked Xeno 1 a lot, so he's forgiven

-Ganondorf should never lose the Warlock Punch. I always saw it as his only semi-canonical move (before he got Flame Choke). It's kinda the same punch he does at the beginning of OoT's final fight, when he punches the floor and destroys the ground. It's just that he does it in front of him, instead of against the floor. Back in Melee, he also did the exact same scream he did in OoT when he used that move
-Speaking of Ganondorf, I think his normals are already perfect for the character, the only really weird things he has left are the down B and the up B. But eh, it's no big deal. He pretty much feels and acts like Ganondorf already, and the moveset (finally) works. He's fine to me

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That wouldn't work at all. Solo and Eight aren't actual titles and Luminary is just "Yusha" in the Japanese version, roughly translated as Hero and shared by all DQ protagonists. Only Erdrick works as a canon, definitive name and even that is something he gains at the end of DQIII, it's not his default name.

And Yuusha is Brave translated...

So in other words, Brave was meant to refer to Luminary, not Erdrick? That actually makes a lot of sense too. Erdrick was honestly too much of an unknown worldwide to properly sell. Using a worldwide known character like Luminary as the face was a very smart business decision, as well as a way better way to get DQ more popular worldwide. It doesn't matter if a character is the most legendary when you're selling DLC. They need some kind of worldwide knowledge that's significant enough to guarantee sales. Square-Enix isn't even willing to put Erdrick in their regular DQ crossovers, and the Japanese ones are the only ones that have various Heroes, which says a bit more about their confidence in anything but the Monsters being notable worldwide. Of course, that's not how it works with Smash DLC, as it's not them choosing the base character. To be honest, with the codename the way it is, being a more straight translation of Yuusha(which is Luminary, if I understand your point correctly), Luminary was probably the default the entire time and Erdrick was no more than a notable alt.

Pet peeve of mine, that said; There is no "The". It's just Hero. The trailer is slightly misleading, but Hero actually has slightly bigger letters, emphasizing it's not a full title but a single word. They also spelled it Banjo-Kazooie, which is the game title, not the character, who is spelled Banjo & Kazooie. Even the website confirms it as a typo. Of course, despite the typo, I doubt it's some hint we're getting a revival... though that'd be cool.

 

[Slime Master]

Wow I guess I need to do everything myself. THIS ONE, obviously:

Spoiler

View attachment 229202

That's one of the weakest swords in the game. It's designed to look generic and boring so you get some sort of reward for buying a better one than just more damage.

 

[Idon]

Bro that's a generic iron sword @Mewtwo.

A simple one handed sword with a hilt curved up is literally as basic a sword as you could possibly get.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yoshi not getting a second rep is way overdue and like it's been like 20 years and 4 games and it hasn't happened... Poor guy

64
2001
Melee
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
Brawl
2009
2010
2011
2012
2013
Wii U and 3ds
2015
2016
2017
Ultimate
All those previous years and still no newcomer for him...

It doesn't help knowing that a good portion of the notable Yoshi's Island characters are also Super Mario series characters. Even Poochy himself appeared in a mainstream Super Mario title, but he does have stronger ties to the Yoshi's Island series.

 

[Calane]

That wouldn't work at all. Solo and Eight aren't actual titles and Luminary is just "Yusha" in the Japanese version, roughly translated as Hero and shared by all DQ protagonists. Only Erdrick works as a canon, definitive name and even that is something he gains at the end of DQIII, it's not his default name.

I've been seeing this "DQ Heroes don't have actual names" thing thrown around a lot, so I just thought I'd come out of hibernation to set things straight. Most DQ Heroes do in fact have actual names that have been used in official games. It's only the heroes of 1, 2, 3, and sorta 5 that don't really have canon names (though they each have canon titles they go by).

For example, all of the heroes (except the Luminary) are playable in "Theatrhythm Dragon Quest", and that game uses their actual names. Here's a page translating the names of all the playable characters (Heroes included).

I believe their names (or official titles) were also used in "Dragon Quest Battle Road Victory", but I can't find a page translating the names for that game, unfortunately. The most I can find is a GameFAQs thread talking about it.

I'll list off the official names (or titles) for the DQ Heroes below.

First, the ones with actual names:

DQ4: Solo

DQ6: Rek

DQ7: Arus (Auster in the west)

DQ8: Eight

DQ9: Nine

DQ10: X

DQ11: Eleven (?)

(They seemed to stop caring after Arus/Auster, lol.)

Now the ones with only official titles:

DQ1: Roto's Descendant / Erdrick's Descendant

DQ2: Prince of Lorasia / Prince of Midenhall

DQ3: Legendary Hero

DQ5: Legendary Monster Tamer

Interestingly, these heroes do have names in things outside of the games, such as the CD Theater Dramas.

If you still don't believe they have actual names, take a look at the official page for DQ7's 3DS remake. They straight up call DQ7's Hero "Auster".

While I can't find a translation for "Dragon Quest Battle Road Victory", I think "Theatrhythm Dragon Quest" is enough to show that their actual names have been used in an official game (making them canon).

That said, they're all usually just called "Hero" most of the time.

 

[Deleted member]

Regarding potential newcomers for Zelda, Kirby, Yoshi, Mario, Star Fox, Warioware, and most 1st party series already in the game, I find it hard to select a newcomer from each series just because I find it hard to justify them above any other characters from their series. Closest ones that I could justify somewhat are probably Dixie and Impa although I find it difficult to think about Impa given her incarnations are just all over the place. Xenoblade is one series I could think of newcomers but I feel these are more justified by release date.

Also regarding Pokemon or FE, I don't really like the idea of selecting certain characters just to complete the set regarding types or weapon triangles given that these mechanics dont really exist in the game.

I disagree. And I think by saying that no art can be bad, you cheapen the craft and skill of artists who do objectively better work than others. Don't be ignorant and call all art equal, even if you personally can't discern or appreciate the difference.


Wow I guess I need to do everything myself. THIS ONE, obviously:

Spoiler

View attachment 229202

So we are ignoring the sword the luminary uses for Smash and that is iconic for the game and we are just going to look at a common sword, gotcha. Seriously though, its hard to take your arguments seriously when you search inane ways to prove you're correct.

 

[slrigeigdew]

Well then I just plain disagree. Variety is excellent for any game and a far better point of consideration for inclusion than a disorganized mob of people shouting for garbage nobody characters to be included.

I agree that variety in movesets, playstyles designs and characters are excellent. Mainly because these are things you can actually observe ingame. It's more the meta arguments where we disagree with.

"This character would be the first indie character in Smash"
"This character would be unique because it came from a Western company"
"This character would rep a genre not yet seen in Smash"

All these things would be impressive but they ultimately mean nothing because they tell me nothing about the character. For all I know a character can fit all three of those statements and still play like another Marth clone.

TL;DR I prefer variety in the areas that count.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

And Yuusha is Brave translated...

So in other words, Brave was meant to refer to Luminary, not Erdrick? That actually makes a lot of sense too. Erdrick was honestly too much of an unknown worldwide to properly sell. Using a worldwide known character like Luminary as the face was a very smart business decision, as well as a way better way to get DQ more popular worldwide. It doesn't matter if a character is the most legendary when you're selling DLC. They need some kind of worldwide knowledge that's significant enough to guarantee sales. Square-Enix isn't even willing to put Erdrick in their regular DQ crossovers, and the Japanese ones are the only ones that have various Heroes, which says a bit more about their confidence in anything but the Monsters being notable worldwide. Of course, that's not how it works with Smash DLC, as it's not them choosing the base character. To be honest, with the codename the way it is, being a more straight translation of Yuusha(which is Luminary, if I understand your point correctly), Luminary was probably the default the entire time and Erdrick was no more than a notable alt.

Pet peeve of mine, that said; There is no "The". It's just Hero. The trailer is slightly misleading, but Hero actually has slightly bigger letters, emphasizing it's not a full title but a single word. They also spelled it Banjo-Kazooie, which is the game title, not the character, who is spelled Banjo & Kazooie. Even the website confirms it as a typo. Of course, despite the typo, I doubt it's some hint we're getting a revival... though that'd be cool.

Minor observation, Yuusha (勇者) in this context literally means Hero.

While brave is another correct way to interpret that word, the second kanji is used to denote a person while the first one denotes courage, aka person of courage, aka Hero. If you were to use that word people would understand it as hero in most situations rather than brave.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Minor observation, Yuusha (勇者) in this context literally means Hero.

While brave is another correct way to interpret that word, the second kanji is used to denote a person while the first one denotes courage, aka person of courage, aka Hero. If you were to use that word people would understand it as hero in most situations rather than brave.

Though in the end, it's what was more simple; Brave was not a hint at Erdrick. It was the literal character name, being Hero. It was like Packun Flower, a literal name instead of a codename that is tied to the character in some kind of logical way(like Jack is to Joker). If what Osby is referring to makes sense, that means that it's possible Brave is more directly referring to Luminary than anyone else as well? So it's kind of a codename?

Or do I have that wrong?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I think that Brave was just a codename used to throw off data miners rather than denoting an specific character. They probably used the DQ11 guy in the main art because he was the most recent.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think that Brave was just a codename used to throw off data miners rather than denoting an specific character. They probably used the DQ11 guy in the main art because he was the most recent.

Not really. Brave directly refers to the Class at bare minimum. The only Hero it has any direct connection to is Luminary otherwise.

Besides that, Luminary wasn't simply the most recent. That's not all that important. What he is is the most advertised instead. That makes him vastly easier for people to know as in the West. The biggest thing going for it is they wanted the Definitive Edition on Switch, which he clearly helps advertise. So recency is more of a coincidence than a real reason. You have the only option that will be made clearly known, which matters more.

I doubt it was to throw anyone off the trail, really. There's quite literally nothing special about the name Brave in itself. Too many leakers already immediately jumped to the idea it had to be Yuusha without any real evidence for their theory beyond Erdrick's leak, which wasn't provable with evidence he was in either. A single credible person isn't evidence, after all. Even the only other person to say Erdrick had some incorrect information, like female alts. He even got some odd information that didn't confirm Erdrick directly as the character, but a vague statement he's in in some way at best. Made even better by the fact that Erdrick being leaked wasn't really as correct as people try to make it sound like. He was just a costume, not the actual main character. There's little reason to believe he was ever going to be the main one as well. It was already common sense they'd use a face that was recognizable worldwide. Luminary fit in the perfect timing for advertisement, and was getting a proper worldwide release/knowledge intentionally. There was really no better choice to help sell the character worldwide. Being recency is more of a coincidence. If they were advertising someone else via a remake far more heavily, especially a unique Switch variant, they'd have been chosen instead. Whether it'd be Erdrick, Eight, Solo, or someone completely different. In a sense, yeah, I guess some could call him a shill character(not the best way to say it, but it's not really wrong to some degree). What however is different is that's just the reason for who the face was, not the reason for the obvious character... who is the main class from DQ, a massively influential franchise and all.

 

[Deleted member]

Fire Emblem characters are too easy to use for the pay off. I don't like how much hit priority they have in close against hit boxes that aren't disjointed sword attacks. Getting in the pocket against them should give you the upper hand to compensate for all the range/speed/power they have. Spacing should be a real concern for sword fighters. I'm also not a big fan of having a counter ability cover 360 degrees around your character, you should have to at least face the right direction.

 

[osby]

Fire Emblem characters are too easy to use for the pay off. I don't like how much hit priority they have in close against hit boxes that aren't disjointed sword attacks. Getting in the pocket against them should give you the upper hand to compensate for all the range/speed/power they have. Spacing should be a real concern for sword fighters. I'm also not a big fan of having a counter ability cover 360 degrees around your character, you should have to at least face the right direction.

In which universe Ike and Robin are speedy? Or Roy any range? Also they are numerous sword fighters that aren't from Fire Emblem.

And pretty much every counter covers your both sides, but your wording makes it a bit confusing whether or not you are talking about Fire Emblem characters particularly, so I'm not going to touch that.