Unpopular opinion: Yoshi is not high tier. Evidence inside.

[Skitrel]

I'm not sure if you're implying Egg Toss forces an opponent to approach because in reality it doesn't.

I mostly agree on your points on how Yoshi is in this game, but I thought I'd mention that's kinda how he was in brawl too (I think).

Hmm. I disagree.

Egg toss can be thrown fast enough to diminish shield continuously. Test it. An opponent must either perfect shield regularly or dodge it endlessly, both of which rely on the opponent not throwing their own long range projectiles and dodging the eggs invites Yoshi to SHeggthrow>nair or SHeggthrow>Egglay/breversalEgglay.

It forces an approach in all matchups except ones that opponents have a projectile they can throw back better than Yoshi can, which is very few matchups.

If you get just two successive eggthrow hits on shield Yoshi can approach with dair safely because their shield is too low to defend against it.

 

[Sinister Slush]

He's not being sarcastic, he doesn't have the game so he really doesn't play the new Yoshi often or use his free time watching Yoshi matches so he doesn't 100% know how or if Yoshi works or if his current meta shifted a bit. Which it hasn't.

 

[Delta-cod]

Egg toss is one of the strongest projectiles in the game, It deals lots of damage compared to it's speed, it's very spammable, you can use it on the ground and jump cancel it to give yourself some extra space while throwing it. In the air its a litle more risky, but you it grants you the abillity to throw the eggs VERY far, and due to the mobility it provides you can use it to check for openings, and dodge projectiles while still throwing one. Even campy characters have problems dealing with egg toss. Mix them up and don't get too predictable.

Yeah sure, they can be powershield but it still generally forces people to apporach.

I think the problem with Egg Toss is that it's not quite fast enough to force unfavorable approaches (also @ Skitrel ). Yes, eggs are powerful, but we have just a little too much end lag that the opponent can afford to just sort of dodge through/shield then calmly approach to a range where Egg Toss is no longer safe. I think this is the main problem with our approach forcing in this game: there's a range where opponents can be at where our defensive options aren't quite safe, and our approach options aren't good enough to really force them out again. We can get around this by retreating and throwing more eggs, hopefully to force an unfavorable approach for them, but we can only repeat this process once or twice before being forced to confrontation.

Yoshis anti air consists of PP Uptilt, Upsmash, Jump cancelled EggToss, Pivot grabs, shield to nair Out of shield, or jab, spot doding and Uair.

Uptilt covers a lot of range, and yes it's a litle slow, but one of the most rewarding attacks to hit with, early game it combos hard, later in the game it can lead to a upair to the kill. Upsmash is still ridicilously strong anti air, it has a bigger hitbox than it looks, its fast, and it can be jump cancelled if you need a better position. Oh And it kills veeery early. An early low powered diagonal egg toss is very good anti air if timed right as it will cover a large distance, last long enough for you to combo out of it if it hits, and in case the enemy lands and tries to grab you the egg wil lsave you. Reccomeded t be done jump canceled on ground tough as it makes the move much safer in case things go wrong.

Does utilt have a lot more range than I think it does? I'm more concerned with the horizontal reach on it, as nobody really approaches from straight above. Does utilt reach far enough there to outrange things like Sheik/Diddy Fair?

Also if everything goes wrong, shielding and SH Nair pretty much beats everything but command grabs. Worst case you hit the enemies sheild and can use the time to back off and force them to approach again.

I think the problem with Nair OoS is that it has pitiful range. This OoS options loses really hard to good spacing. I used to use this against Sheik, but then the person I was playing started spacing better and it just wasn't viable anymore. It's great if they land too close to you, but I think this option crumbles at higher levels of play.

Of course his anti air isn't without flaws, but in general it's very safe, can be extremely rewarding, and covers a lot of potential approach options. Of course there are characters that have less problems approaching but that doesn't mean his anti air isn't very good.

I don't think the moves are that safe against proper spacing. I think Yoshi really struggles when the opponent stays reserved and doesn't jump into the moves we need them to jump into.

Of course, I think this all really only applies to Sheik, maybe Fox, Diddy and ZSS? Other characters are slow enough that we can use our mobility to keep looking for options and responding to threats.

Also i don't appreciate the sarcasm of "Maybe he's got some new options I'm (we're) not quite seeing.", but yeah if you don't think about the potential of his moves then you're not going to see anything, because honestly i can't possibly see how his anti air is lacking at all..

I assure you I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, just trying to prompt an in depth explanation of what you see in Yoshi. Sometimes people are like "he's got good anti air" and I ask "why?" and they're just like "the moves are gud!"

Sorry if you caught any aggressive feels.

Edit: Also to clarify, I do have the game, but I have no accessible competition, so I don't have a way of really learning the meta firsthand. If I do end up playing a more competitive opponent I usually have to use more of my theorycrafted ideas/general smash knowledge to play well, rather than relying on experience. Since my opportunities for experience are basically non-existent, there's a high probability that I'm missing things that others have tested, which is why I like to ask what they see if it's something I've already seen as crap.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

An opponent must either perfect shield regularly or dodge it endlessly, both of which rely on the opponent not throwing their own long range projectiles and dodging the eggs invites Yoshi to SHeggthrow>nair or SHeggthrow>Egglay/breversalEgglay.

If we're approaching with SH Egg Toss than they're not approaching, we are. It's worth noting they don't have to damage us to camp. (just watch any of Static manny's matches) Egg Toss doesn't force approaches. What forces approaches is %/stock lead.

 

[Mister E]

Yeah, Utilt is even good on grounded oponents. The range on Yoshis uptilt is basicly like Marios Upsmash, just from the front of Yoshi, instead of behind and it's grounded reach is a bit better. It's not ridicilously high, but the hitbox stays out for a while, it covers a lot of distance, and is really rewarding to hit with. It is not something you are supposed to challange ridicilouse approaches like Shieks Fair with it. If you're lucky and their spacing is a litle off, you might be able to PP in under them, but it is risky. It's also very weak against shields, so make sure to time it right.

I agree that if you use Nair out of shield for offensive purposes it's bad, it's mostly a GTFO move in case the enemy is close and have nasty grabs. It can often give you and extra 10% but it doesn't really help you gain tempo in the game, actually it does the opposite.

And yeah i agree, some matchups are harder when the opponent has a better neutrual game than Yoshi. Yoshi thrive when he has control, and when he has trouble gaining control he has trouble winning the game. Then again the characters he strugges the most with are Top tiers simply because their so freaking good at keeping control, that doesn't mean Yoshi can't be a high tier character considering he has tools to deal with mostly all tactics.

He has fast and strong moves that reward good plays, a great projectile with maaany uses, that i think people underrate. I myself don't think Yoshi as a top tier, but he is better than the majority of the cast, and putting him at the middle of the list doesn't make sense. I think that if we as the Yoshi community try to promote the good parts of Yoshi, instead of being sad that he doesn't work as well as first maybe hoping, we can evolve yoshi as a character and we can inspire more people to join in. It's my opinion, but i don't feel the way it's going now is helping.

Edit: If eggtoss doesn't force approaches, then nothing does. You can argue that yes, a person with a lead never has to approach, in theory... but thats pretty silly really, is he going to sitt there and powershield untill 8 minuttes pass? It's not like we can't approach ourselves if the situation needs us to. I could formulate it diffrently if it helps. Egg tosses "Promote" the other person to approach because it's more than likely a better option than sit there and wait, untill something bad happns.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

If eggtoss doesn't force approaches, then nothing does. You can argue that yes, a person with a lead never has to approach, in theory... but thats pretty silly really, is he going to sitt there and powershield untill 8 minuttes pass?

Have you watched Static Manny before? tbh I know this from experience. I was playing @ Delta-cod before and he literally spammed spot dodge for 3 minutes before I decided to approach. The point here is egg toss alone and the threat of egg toss approaches cannot force an opponent to approach. If they're not approaching then they're waiting for us to approach. By doing that you'd be playing into their hands (which is the problem). Obviously this isn't the worst thing in the world but eggs are certainly not a fix all solution and has pretty doable counterplay (unless they're too slow to chase us that is).

 

[Delta-cod]

Yeah, Utilt is even good on grounded oponents. The range on Yoshis uptilt is basicly like Marios Upsmash, just from the front of Yoshi, instead of behind and it's grounded reach is a bit better. It's not ridicilously high, but the hitbox stays out for a while, it covers a lot of distance, and is really rewarding to hit with. It is not something you are supposed to challange ridicilouse approaches like Shieks Fair with it. If you're lucky and their spacing is a litle off, you might be able to PP in under them, but it is risky. It's also very weak against shields, so make sure to time it right.

Ah, interesting. Guess I'll have to try that more frequently then.

I agree that if you use Nair out of shield for offensive purposes it's bad, it's mostly a GTFO move in case the enemy is close and have nasty grabs. It can often give you and extra 10% but it doesn't really help you gain tempo in the game, actually it does the opposite.

I guess the problem is that Yoshi doesn't have an answer to well spaced pressure. My go-to example is spaced Sheik Fair. But then again, I don't think there are many characters with a good answer to that. I will say that Nair is GREAT when they overcommit to their spacing.

And yeah i agree, some matchups are harder when the opponent has a better neutrual game than Yoshi. Yoshi thrive when he has control, and when he has trouble gaining control he has trouble winning the game. Then again the characters he strugges the most with are Top tiers simply because their so freaking good at keeping control, that doesn't mean Yoshi can't be a high tier character considering he has tools to deal with mostly all tactics.

This is true for like, everyone. Match ups are usually hard when you don't have neutral. =P

I actually agree with the fact that Yoshi is high tier. I think I tend to frame my judgments in the reference of "how do these options help combat the top tiers". And usually the answer is "they suck!" I realize it's usually a pretty unfair way of looking at Yoshi (makes him look really bad), but I do think he's better than most of the cast by far. I call everyone else even worse adjectives, lol.

He has fast and strong moves that reward good plays, a great projectile with maaany uses, that i think people underrate. I myself don't think Yoshi as a top tier, but he is better than the majority of the cast, and putting him at the middle of the list doesn't make sense. I think that if we as the Yoshi community try to promote the good parts of Yoshi, instead of being sad that he doesn't work as well as first maybe hoping, we can evolve yoshi as a character and we can inspire more people to join in. It's my opinion, but i don't feel the way it's going now is helping.

Mm, I agree. But there is some merit to discussing what's holding Yoshi back from top tier. I don't think there's much left to this thread though.

Edit: If eggtoss doesn't force approaches, then nothing does. You can argue that yes, a person with a lead never has to approach, in theory... but thats pretty silly really, is he going to sitt there and powershield untill 8 minuttes pass? It's not like we can't approach ourselves if the situation needs us to. I could formulate it diffrently if it helps. Egg tosses "Promote" the other person to approach because it's more than likely a better option than sit there and wait, untill something bad happns.

I mean, mostly it does. But as @ Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ can testify (<3), patient players will just sit there and avoid it unless you're forced into approaching by some other means.

 

[YoHeKing]

Dang. I havnt been getting notifications.

Im just wondering why so many big players want to pick up yoshi for sheik. Is yoshis MU with sheik alot better then most of the characters? He seems like a "slight counter" and I feel like he could beat the MU with perfect reactions (double jump fast falls?).

I played airvualt. I think hes like the top marth as of now. Our games were pretty close and I had to fight him myfirst tourney. Hes defenetly better then me but I dont think the MU is uneven at all. I think its just yoshi has a harder time getting in but marth has to struggle the same amount. If not even its probably 49:51 in marths favor lol.

Im not gonna blame my lose on a "bad MU"anyways.

 

[Fuerzo]

Dang. I havnt been getting notifications.

Im just wondering why so many big players want to pick up yoshi for sheik. Is yoshis MU with sheik alot better then most of the characters? He seems like a "slight counter" and I feel like he could beat the MU with perfect reactions (double jump fast falls?).

The logic seems to be that Yoshi, despite his many disadvantages in the matchup, gets out of a lot of Sheik's stuff thanks to double jump and nair. I'm excited to see what ESAM does with the character and to see Yoshis like Sky, Raptor, and Poltergust improve.

 

[Lukingordex]

While I do agree Yoshi is not the top tier threat most people say he is, I do believe he is a solid high tier character.

Yeah he has a mediocre neutral and also some trouble killing which hurts him really bad in a game where rage exists and most characters have some dumb move that can kill you at 60% or something or a true combo that lead to death if you get caught in it at 50%, but to make up for that he has the best aerial speed in the game (small mii brawler is not a real character ) which provides him one of the best disadvantaged states in the game (while there are a lot of characters that really struggle there) and a really solid recovery. His advantaged state, while not that impressive, DOES hurt people with low mobility in the air (Ness, R.O.B, Little mac, Robin, Bowser jr, etc), he can juggle those characters really hard by being able to follow then both in the ground and in the air while they desesperately try to return to the ground.

The only big problem with this character is that he loses to people that not only win neutral but also have a good disadvantaged state and don't let yoshi take much advantage of it (Sheik, Mario, Pikachu, Diddy, etc)

 

[YoHeKing]

Alright. I think I finally gathered what thought about yoshi in words.

I dont think he is broken at all. He really has nothing game breaking or anything really dumb or cheap. Everyone above him has a pretty cheap tactic or dumb/huge advantage over a majority of the cast.

Yoshi seems like he has a close MU against everyone. He unbelievably has a close to even MU against top 5 unlike the top 5 themselfs.
For example sheik seems to have a big advantage over rosalina, luigi and zero suit samus(?). And basically everyone.
Rosalina seems to beat luigi pretty badly. Anyone without a good way off getting in or a way of knocking out luma is basically chaos when fighting her.

But then we have Yoshi with just amazing propertys and stats. He has a pretty even MU against everyone. Marth, sheik, roy, and lucina is really not a bad MU as people say. We just need to get good at it and stop thinking of it as a bad MU or blaming it as a bad mu lol.

Now lets talk about sheik real quick.(just bread and butter)

People think its a extremely bad MU for yoshi but theres like no possible way it could be any worst then like everyone.
Alright so Yoshi is considered a heavy character. Hes also considered the least comboable. He has some of the best DI in the game (im pretty sure) and he can break out of even sheiks side smash pretty early.
He dies about 140-200% against sheik in a average from what I see.

So sheik is pretty much known for her combos, fast weak moves, and lack of killing. Now yoshi really pushes those 3 things worst.
Alot of her combos are eliminated. This means less damage outputs.
Sheiks lack of killing get worst because she racks up less damage and Yoshis weight makes it even harder to kill.
Now for the weak fast aerials. If yoshi gets a trade off every like 2-3 hits from sheiks fast moves he basically is putting the MU in his postions or keeping it neutral. 15% forward air would be worth it if you got a trade from 4 of her forward airs.

This is like the main reason Yoshi has been a popular choice against sheik. Try using double jump fast falls more often guys. It really pushes yoshis trading ability even better against alot of characters.

Now Yoshi VS rosalina and luigi(just the bread and butter)
Yoshi pretty much eliminates there main weakneses but seems to be even or close to even. Luma gets quickly knocked out by yoshi. Luigis shield is useless in this MU because the shield slides just make stuff so safe with yoshi. Luigis kill set ups is like the main weakness here for yoshi.

Match up against disjoints. There almost all really slow or have alot of endlag. The only thing that beats us is really pre using them because theres no way you can react with yoshis airspeed and nair. No marth ike player uses there disjoints for beating or challangeing anything. They simply just use them when they think your going to run into them or challange them when they buffered it. Why not seriously take that as a advantage? Baiting and trading is really the omly thing that beats disjoints other then shield. Just gonna say this but disjoints are really annoying online compared to offline.

To sum it up...
Yoshi has nothing game breaking but somehow is a good character with close or even MUs with all the roster with enough experience.

Correct me if im wrong though about something. I won't be offended. Although I will argue untill I ran out of stuff about a top Yoshi loosing badly to alot of a character in general.

 

[White_Pointer]

I don't agree that the Rosalina matchup is at all favourable for Yoshi. I think he also really struggles against characters like Pikachu, ROB and Diddy, and has a surprisingly hard time against zone heavy characters like Duck Hunt, Toon Link and Villager too. I don't think the MU against the Pits is in Yoshi's favour either, the reflector seems to do bad things to Yoshi's recovery.

He has a pretty even MU with Fox, Mario, Ness and Luigi though, but I think the other top tiers tend to trounce him.

 

[Yikarur]

I like how the opinions are split.
I don't think Yoshi has problems with zoning characters in particular. They are exhausting but not bad.
Fox and Mario are probably -1 for us. Fox completely dominates the neutral. Mario is pretty good overall and upsmash beats everything. I have not that much MU Experience against Mario but It looks like he would win.
Villager is even or in Yoshis favor . He has to work abnormally much for a stock while you can beat most of his gimmicky stuff directly by knowing how to counter it. And getting in once = equivalent of 1000 hits Villager did to you.
Diddy is probably our worst match-up but not going to elaborate on that because I have to go.

 

[YoHeKing]

I don't agree that the Rosalina matchup is at all favourable for Yoshi. I think he also really struggles against characters like Pikachu, ROB and Diddy, and has a surprisingly hard time against zone heavy characters like Duck Hunt, Toon Link and Villager too. I don't think the MU against the Pits is in Yoshi's favour either, the reflector seems to do bad things to Yoshi's recovery.

He has a pretty even MU with Fox, Mario, Ness and Luigi though, but I think the other top tiers tend to trounce him.

Double jump fast fall Is a major game change against duck hunt. Really though pikachu seems pretty even and alot of pikachu users agree. Yoshi can time out rob pretty well if you grab his gyro and spam eggs. Js

But how could any other character even stand a chance against sheik if Yoshi couldn't. Him and pikachu seem like a really good counter although it still might be in sheiks favor but not by much.

I like how the opinions are split.
I don't think Yoshi has problems with zoning characters in particular. They are exhausting but not bad.
Fox and Mario are probably -1 for us. Fox completely dominates the neutral. Mario is pretty good overall and upsmash beats everything. I have not that much MU Experience against Mario but It looks like he would win.
Villager is even or in Yoshis favor . He has to work abnormally much for a stock while you can beat most of his gimmicky stuff directly by knowing how to counter it. And getting in once = equivalent of 1000 hits Villager did to you.
Diddy is probably our worst match-up but not going to elaborate on that because I have to go.

Marios up smash isnt the problem. Like all smashes you shouldn't challange them. Either way though almost all our moves out range mario

I could understand diddy being our worse MU though but not by very far.

Edit: Just wondering but do you guys go into the lab (practice and study) to find the best options in each MU before you call it bad. Theres people out there that die to one character that they never fought and call it a bad MU before then even get alot of experience. Not talking about sheik and stuff but pretty uncommon characters. I used to think shulk, rosalina, and king dedede was a bad MU back in 3ds days because I fought rarely anyone who mained them. I thought the fox MU was pretty hard and slightly in fox's favor but @mudykips told me a simple way of beating fox and what do you know I started beating 3 foxs I lost to before.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Yoshi doesn't really struggle against zoners because he can avoid their projectiles pretty easily while lobbing eggs from anywhere forcing them to approach. (exception being Toon Link)


Can you elaborate on why Pit wins because reflector? I'm not understanding that tbh. lol

 

[Delta-cod]

I think a short version of Yoheking's point is this:

Yoshi is good, but he's too fair.

There's nothing about Yoshi that's bull**** to a knowledgeable player.

Sheik has dumb, unfair frame data.

Diddy has dumb, unfair bananas and frame data.

Rosalina has dumb, unfair Luma stuff.

Luigi has dumb, unfair kill confirms at really low percents.

Mii Brawler has dumb, unfair Up-B.

Etc. etc.

All the characters people think are top tier have something dumb about them. But not Yoshi. He's too fair and honest to be top tier.

This means that you MUST be better than your opponent to win. You can't fall back on your unfair xyz while being outplayed.

This means that you MUST know the intricacies of your match ups. You can't just fall back on your unfair neutral game when you don't know exactly what's going on.

This means that you MUST realize that most MUs are going to be evenish. This means you're not going to have an easy time in tournament. There are no real "breather rounds". This makes Yoshi potentially very tiring for a player during the course of an event.

To me, this makes Yoshi a high tier. A mid tier isn't unfair, but they're also not good enough to struggle against the unfair top tiers. Yoshi has the capability to fight it out, so he's notably a step up from this tier.

 

[pato_]

I thought the fox MU was pretty hard and slightly in fox's favor but @mudykips told me a simple way of beating fox and what do you know I started beating 3 foxs I lost to before.

Hey man, would you mind sharing the tips against Fox?
thanks in advance!

 

[muddykips]

Hey man, would you mind sharing the tips against Fox?
thanks in advance!

i basically told him to always make sure he isn't putting himself in danger of fox's upsmash, lol.
fox can move really quickly on the ground, and since we need to land every now and then, upsmash is a deadly thing to get caught by. try not to throw too many eggs on or near the ground, either, since he might run under them.

if you're a careful player, fox's other kill options shouldn't be too much of an issue. just work on different ways you can land.

 

[pato_]

i basically told him to always make sure he isn't putting himself in danger of fox's upsmash, lol.
fox can move really quickly on the ground, and since we need to land every now and then, upsmash is a deadly thing to get caught by. try not to throw too many eggs on or near the ground, either, since he might run under them.

if you're a careful player, fox's other kill options shouldn't be too much of an issue. just work on different ways you can land.

Awesome, thanks a lot for the quick response

 

[YoHeKing]

I think a short version of Yoheking's point is this:

Yoshi is good, but he's too fair.

There's nothing about Yoshi that's bull**** to a knowledgeable player.

Sheik has dumb, unfair frame data.

Diddy has dumb, unfair bananas and frame data.

Rosalina has dumb, unfair Luma stuff.

Luigi has dumb, unfair kill confirms at really low percents.

Mii Brawler has dumb, unfair Up-B.

Etc. etc.

All the characters people think are top tier have something dumb about them. But not Yoshi. He's too fair and honest to be top tier.

This means that you MUST be better than your opponent to win. You can't fall back on your unfair xyz while being outplayed.

This means that you MUST know the intricacies of your match ups. You can't just fall back on your unfair neutral game when you don't know exactly what's going on.

This means that you MUST realize that most MUs are going to be evenish. This means you're not going to have an easy time in tournament. There are no real "breather rounds". This makes Yoshi potentially very tiring for a player during the course of an event.

To me, this makes Yoshi a high tier. A mid tier isn't unfair, but they're also not good enough to struggle against the unfair top tiers. Yoshi has the capability to fight it out, so he's notably a step up from this tier.

Exactly. But I think hes top or atleast top of high tier because he has a chance against everyone. You cant sleep on a MU with yoshi at all it seems like. People think ZSS is top tier only because she has a pretty good matchup with most of the characters. Her frame data really isn't her main stuff. Shes great because one punish is better then luigis punish.

Note Yoshi is defenetly a better character In general then her even though she benefits off throws by a ton. Her neutral is wayy worst then ours but somehow is considerd so much higher. People thought ZSS was a noob distroyer just like yoshi but nairo is the noob and pro level distroyer proofing what ZSS is all about. Reminder @Raptor is getting better and better and he gets top 16 or 32 at pretty big events other then evo.

i basically told him to always make sure he isn't putting himself in danger of fox's upsmash, lol.
fox can move really quickly on the ground, and since we need to land every now and then, upsmash is a deadly thing to get caught by. try not to throw too many eggs on or near the ground, either, since he might run under them.

if you're a careful player, fox's other kill options shouldn't be too much of an issue. just work on different ways you can land.

That helped a ton actually. I was sitting there figuring out the best options and going into the lab trying to find out new info to get some safe extra damage and I totally couldn't figure out how he was getting up smashes. I found out fox is completely helpless from above and he shouldn't be getting down without a follow up most of the time. And that happens when yoshi is above fox also but not by far.

You told me to avoid the air at high percents and I did and I noticed alot of fox's use the same moves at high percents. Nair, back air, down air, up air and up smash.

I was legitly sitting there at 160% shielding as an approach or to avoid fox because fox's grabs seem just as useless as yoshis and fox has no shield pressure. It really helped the MU by a ton knowing your better off killing fox alot faster.

 

[White_Pointer]

Can you elaborate on why Pit wins because reflector? I'm not understanding that tbh. lol

It's hard to explain but I've seen Pit's reflector do bad things to Yoshi's recovery. Obviously it reflects his eggs which makes his recovery a lot less safe, but it also pushes him away without actually doing damage even during his double jump, so he can actually be pushed out of ledge grab range, and he has no real recovery move to mitigate that.

This means that you MUST realize that most MUs are going to be evenish. This means you're not going to have an easy time in tournament. There are no real "breather rounds". This makes Yoshi potentially very tiring for a player during the course of an event.

To me, this makes Yoshi a high tier. A mid tier isn't unfair, but they're also not good enough to struggle against the unfair top tiers. Yoshi has the capability to fight it out, so he's notably a step up from this tier.

See if Yoshi has evenish matchups with most of the cast, to me that doesn't mean he's high tier, it means he's somewhere in the middle.

 

[YoHeKing]

It's hard to explain but I've seen Pit's reflector do bad things to Yoshi's recovery. Obviously it reflects his eggs which makes his recovery a lot less safe, but it also pushes him away without actually doing damage even during his double jump, so he can actually be pushed out of ledge grab range, and he has no real recovery move to mitigate that.



See if Yoshi has evenish matchups with most of the cast, to me that doesn't mean he's high tier, it means he's somewhere in the middle.

Just gonna say this but yoshi mains know how to air dodge... reflectorys barely work against eggs.

Having an evenish MU with everyone could make him top tier... especially since sheik really really messes up every high tier besides yoshi and pikachu. Ive seen ZeRo do nasty stuff against ZSS, Luigi, mario, fox, ike, rosalina and diddys that there was no way to make the MU any better. No matter how good you are at recovering with fox sheik covers all those options and he isnt coming back even if you pick the best option just like luigi, mario and rosalina(if you havnt seen zero just make these MUs hell... watch him play more lol...)

Yoshi on the other hand he has them mixs ups and high recovery that has many many options. Not saying he has the best recovery but im simply saying he has to many options and they all cant be coverd at once. Its kinda like non generic.

Luigi has a really hard time recovering and shielding which has nothing to do with the player. That problem cannot be helped and is always the same pattern.

Mario off stage against sheik is a easy gimp for her. One weak attack can rek marios recovery if It succeeds. Due to mario falling down in a weak hitstun.


I suck at explaining things but ill try to sum it up.

Unlike many of the other characters Yoshi doesn't have a generic pattern of recovery. Simple 80% of the stuff she does on Yoshi isn't a impossible MU part. Getting gimped, edge guarded or punished is the players fault and not the character in the MU.

Correct me if im wrong in anything.

 

[Lukingordex]

but the problem in the sheik MU has nothing to do with recovery. The problem is that we just can't hit her because we lose real bad to her in terms of frame data

 

[YoHeKing]

Yoshis super armor fast fall punishes eliminates her good frame data options. Ive been pushining this alot lately because nobody uses this... it makes trade offs even better.

And btw sheik does have alot of aerial endlag with short hitboxs.

Im just bringing up theres sooo many options in both sides of this MU its almost endless. Her frame data isnt what we should be focusing on because then that would make all MUs uneven to sheik but alot. Nobody plays perfectly and people use her frame data as challanging moves or predicting it. Nobody uses fair to react to yoshis nair.

 

[Lukingordex]

could you clarify how do you frequently use super armor fast fall? Because i'm imagining you double jumping kickly from the ground and then fast falling. Is that what you're suggesting?

 

[muddykips]

reasons why yoshi is a potential counter to sheik!!!!!

- NOT THE FRAME DATA. SHEIKS FRAME DATA BEATS LIKE EVERYONE. STOP FOCUSING ON THE FRAME DATA. AAAAAAAAAAAH
- yoshi is heavy, and sheik's moves have trouble killing on their own
- yoshi also has his doublejump, and he isn't fat, so he doesnt get combo hell'd like other heavies (+ even some lighter characters)
- because of the above, sheik has to get meaty hits in, which is too hard for sheik mains and will fry their brains, giving us the advantage
- yoshi has a recovery which is hard to gimp (i thought that thing about pit's reflector gimping yoshi was cute)
- yoshi's eggs are arguably as good of a projectile as needles, and are easier to spam :^)
- sheik is relatively light, and since she SHOULDNT be killing us that early, yoshi's strength + rage = dead sheik

get your frame data out of my yard. go be an accountant somewhere else.

 

[White_Pointer]

Just gonna say this but yoshi mains know how to air dodge... reflectorys barely work against eggs.

You can't air dodge as you are passing the ledge, which is where Pit would throw the reflector out, or you'll miss it and potentially be unable to recover or be easily gimped depending on whether you have already used your double jump.

The reflected eggs don't need to actually hit Yoshi to screw with his recovery either. Yoshi relies on eggs doing damage or at least forcing a shield to ensure he has a safe path to the edge so even if they just get reflected away and don't actually hit Yoshi, it makes his recovery less safe.

 

[Lukingordex]

Yoshi's recovery is one of the best in the game and I personally can't see how Pit's Down B can give him trouble offstage, even stuff like mario's cape doesn't scare him while he's recovering. Just keep your double Jump and you should be safe.

 

[muddykips]

You can't air dodge as you are passing the ledge, which is where Pit would throw the reflector out, or you'll miss it and potentially be unable to recover or be easily gimped depending on whether you have already used your double jump.

The reflected eggs don't need to actually hit Yoshi to screw with his recovery either. Yoshi relies on eggs doing damage or at least forcing a shield to ensure he has a safe path to the edge so even if they just get reflected away and don't actually hit Yoshi, it makes his recovery less safe.

if pit throws the reflector out on the ledge, he'll be pretty lonely down there, cause yoshi recovers really high. like really, really high. his mom was a pterodactyl.

yeah, yoshi uses eggs to force options. pit can't do much to yoshi in his lil reflector fort, and it takes him a bit to get out of it, so i'd say making pit throw out his reflector would count as an option successfully forced. it basically gives yoshi a free landing.

 

[White_Pointer]

Yoshi's recovery is one of the best in the game and I personally can't see how Pit's Down B can give him trouble offstage, even stuff like mario's cape doesn't scare him while he's recovering. Just keep your double Jump and you should be safe.

I don't agree that Yoshi's recovery is one of the best in the game. It's one of the worst IMO. He's one of only 2 characters that don't have a true recovery move (Jiggs is the other) that is therefore usually boned should they be caught off stage without a double jump and is always boned should he get stuck under the stage. Almost any character can continue trying to recover with their up b if they get hit mid recovery, but not Yoshi (he doesn't get the little air hop back from his egg throw if he gets hit). His recovery is pretty linear and he has no side b's or anything similar to help him (something almost all top tiers have with the exception of Rosa). His airspeed plays a large part in his recovery as do his eggs to cover his approach to the ledge.

 

[YoHeKing]

Problem Is none of pits moves hits yoshi like foxs down smash. Therfore making this really real helpless. The orbitors only make yoshi go nowhere with full forward momentum and with his floatyness he could EASILY wait for it lol.

reasons why yoshi is a potential counter to sheik!!!!!

- NOT THE FRAME DATA. SHEIKS FRAME DATA BEATS LIKE EVERYONE. STOP FOCUSING ON THE FRAME DATA. AAAAAAAAAAAH
- yoshi is heavy, and sheik's moves have trouble killing on their own
- yoshi also has his doublejump, and he isn't fat, so he doesnt get combo hell'd like other heavies (+ even some lighter characters)
- because of the above, sheik has to get meaty hits in, which is too hard for sheik mains and will fry their brains, giving us the advantage
- yoshi has a recovery which is hard to gimp (i thought that thing about pit's reflector gimping yoshi was cute)
- yoshi's eggs are arguably as good of a projectile as needles, and are easier to spam :^)
- sheik is relatively light, and since she SHOULDNT be killing us that early, yoshi's strength + rage = dead sheik

get your frame data out of my yard. go be an accountant somewhere else.

Yes. Potential defenetly belongs there. We have all these tools against sheik but people act like the MU is so uneven because her frame data beats all his moves just like sheik beats everyone elses moves.

Yoshi's recovery is one of the best in the game and I personally can't see how Pit's Down B can give him trouble offstage, even stuff like mario's cape doesn't scare him while he's recovering. Just keep your double Jump and you should be safe.

I think he has one of the best due to his recovery having no limited pattern and can move freely out of up B. Theres like endless possible recovery options.

I don't agree that Yoshi's recovery is one of the best in the game. It's one of the worse IMO. He's one of only 2 characters that don't have a true recovery move (Jiggs is the other) that is therefore usually boned should they be caught off stage without a double jump and is always boned should he get stuck under the stage. Almost any character can continue trying to recover with their up b if they get hit mid recovery, but not Yoshi (he doesn't get the little air hop back from his egg throw if he gets hit). His recovery is pretty linear and he has no side b's or anything similar to help him (something almost all top tiers have with the exception of Rosa). His airspeed plays a large part in his recovery as do his eggs to cover his approach to the ledge.

Any recovery from below is pretty much worse then ours unless they have a good vertical and horizontal way of getting back to stage. Ledge is just as safe as recoverying high in high level play. TBH yoshi doesnt even need a jump to get back to stage with an UP b that floats soooo much.

Dumb phone quoted itself into quotes... stupid phone...

Edit: I think I fixed it.

 

[fuzyll]

Yoshi is good, but he's too fair.

Yes! Thank you! This is pretty much what I've been trying to get at with all of my posts, but you've done a far better job of getting it across than I have.

Yoshi's competitive advantage, being fair, is that you will have roughly an even match-up or better against the entire cast. The downside is that, when you lose, it simply means you didn't play well. You don't get to john about things because Yoshi has the tools to fight through all of it. This is, in my opinion, the most frustrating thing about Yoshi - it's always your fault!

See if Yoshi has evenish matchups with most of the cast, to me that doesn't mean he's high tier, it means he's somewhere in the middle.

Think about it this way. Ness is "high tier", right? But, he's not "top tier" because he has a few match-ups, like Rosalina, where he just straight-up loses (like, 10:90 loses). If Ness's match-ups (just the "Ness" part) were 80, 70, 60, 50, ..., 10 across the whole cast, and Yoshi's match-ups were 60, 60, 50, 50, ..., 40 across the whole cast, Yoshi's "average" match-up score would actually be about the same as Ness's.

Characters under "high tier" either have a lot of bad match-ups, or are like Yoshi in that they're okay against the whole cast, except they have even less going for them.

I don't agree that Yoshi's recovery is one of the best in the game. It's one of the worst IMO. He's one of only 2 characters that don't have a true recovery move (Jiggs is the other) that is therefore usually boned should they be caught off stage without a double jump and is always boned should he get stuck under the stage. Almost any character can continue trying to recover with their up b if they get hit mid recovery, but not Yoshi (he doesn't get the little air hop back from his egg throw if he gets hit). His recovery is pretty linear and he has no side b's or anything similar to help him (something almost all top tiers have with the exception of Rosa). His airspeed plays a large part in his recovery as do his eggs to cover his approach to the ledge.

There are a few things I want out of a character's recovery:

* Vertical distance
* Horizontal distance
* Multiple parts (think Jigglypuff's jumps)
* Long length (think Villager or ROB Up-Bs)
* Floatiness (think Jigglypuff "hanging" between jumps)

Basically, if you can cover tons of distance, from any location, and do it unpredictably, I think you've got an amazing recovery.

I would agree Yoshi's recovery is too linear (we don't float like Jigglypuff or have the ability to delay like ROB), but I would argue we actually still have a great recovery. We travel a lot of vertical and horizontal distance, we're able to recover in multiple parts (thanks to egg toss) in many circumstances, and our double-jump has armor on it (which most recoveries in the game don't have). Characters with "bad" recoveries are Ness/Lucas, Little Mac, and so on that fail many of the "tests" I have above.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Yoshi's recovery is somewhat average. The vertical distance is not very good tbh, but horizontal is good. Eggs mean there's many ways to mix it up, and there are ways around not having an auto sweetspot.

 

[Delta-cod]

Eh, Yoshi's vertical is fine considering there's nothing that really sends you towards lower corners in this game. It gets him high enough above the stage to reliably get to platforms, which is good enough imo.

 

[YoHeKing]

Its pretty cool we can do a forward air off stage then a 2nd jump nair and easily get back to the stage. Not many characters can do that.

 

[White_Pointer]

and our double-jump has armor on it (which most recoveries in the game don't have).

Yoshi's recovery is the exact reason his double jump has armour on it in the first place though. He doesn't have a true recovery move so he actually *needs* armour on his double jump, otherwise he would be hit out of a recovery way too easily. You see the armour on his double jump as a strength - I see it as a necessity, because if it wasn't there, Yoshi would have hands down the worst recovery in the game (rivalled only by Mac I guess). He doesn't even get the little air hop that he gets from the first aerial egg toss back if he gets hit mid recovery like the rest of the cast with more "normal" up b's do.

 

[muddykips]

ehh, i dunno if "worst" is right. we've got multiple airdodges in this game, and DJ doesnt dip like in brawl, so without superarmor we'd just be more vulnerable at the start of the jump. though, we should already be carefully choosing when to use DJ, anyways.

maybe in a game like melee it was a necessity, but tbh in this game i just regard it as them not taking away a gimmick that made more sense before.

 

[YoHeKing]

Honestly a double jump into air dodge covers like the same distance of sheiks up B with no fast fall at the end. Simply just jump into air dodge to go past the opponent thatd trying to hit you.

Nobody uses yoshis double jump armor for recovery unless a projectile is coming. The reason why we don't is because we don't need the trade and besides almost every move in the game launches us upwards and not directly vertical. All good yoshi players DI up and vector side ways when were hit and we have like some of the best DI in the game. So its almost impossible to gimp a good yoshi.

Yoshis use there jumps for getting out of combos or multi hits. It helps with getting out of combo throws and dangerous situations. Frame 1 hard armor with no delay or endlag is really good.

Also Yoshi obviously has one of the best up B s in the game anyways. Its the most controllable projectile in the game and has like 6 ways from short to long and like 5 or 6 directions. Also it has no free fall and can actually moon bounce launched momentum if you don't DI (Not sure if it works with DI) but it probably makes yoshis air speed from 1.28 to 1.50 lol. Not really 1.50 but I know it makes him a bit faster.

 

[fuzyll]

You see the armour on his double jump as a strength - I see it as a necessity, because if it wasn't there, Yoshi would have hands down the worst recovery in the game (rivalled only by Mac I guess).

From a game design perspective, yes. Yoshi requires the armor because of how his recovery is designed. I'm not debating whether this is good or bad design - it's not relevant to the discussion.

From a game play perspective, we have armor on our double-jump. It is a strength of the character and denying it is simply putting your head in the sand. There's no point arguing, "We would suck if we didn't have it!", because we do have it and have had it for a number of games now.

 

[YoHeKing]

Yoshis double jump is one of the most amazing things in the game :/