Unpopular opinion: Yoshi is not high tier. Evidence inside.

[White_Pointer]

Seamus is a completely different story. She really IS bad. She has few combos, bad kill setups, few kill moves, lots of whiff moves.

Samus actually does have kill moves (charge shot, up b, bair, dair, fsmash, usmash, fair if near the blast zone), the problem is she has virtually no genuine setups into them, which is a point we've also been discussing about Yoshi. In fact believe it or not a lot of that also applies to Yoshi. Bad grab, bad throws, few true combos, bad kill setups, moves that can whiff (smash attacks), even his down b can whiff even if the first hit connects which is odd. The main differences of course are that Yoshi is much more mobile in general than Samus is, is heavier, and has better framedata, so he has an easier time covering the weaknesses up.

Yoshi has downsides, but every character has downsides. It really comes down to wether they outweigh the upsides. And I think they don't when it comes to Yoshi.

It's true all characters have weaknesses, but it seems at high level the opposition know how to really exploit Yoshi's weaknesses more than many other characters it seems.

It's been said a few times in this thread by various posters that when the dust settles Yoshi will probably end up being ranked somewhere in mid tier when it's all said and done unless he's improved with patches.

 

[Skitrel]

I don't think it's too odd that Yoshi's downB can whiff after the first hit. Today I DI'd out of Sheik's fsmash after the first hit in an anthers match.

Moves that you THINK shouldn't whiff seem to do it quite often in Smash 4. I wonder whether there was a severe design oversight when it comes to this because they appear to have been frantically patching moves. I don't think there's been a single patch where somebody hasn't received a buff to fix whiffing in a multi hit move, even we received one for bair last patch.

It's odd for everyone.

Ultimately where he ranks is dependent on his matchups vs others isn't it? In my mind the highest character on a tierlist is the person with the fewest number of unfavourable matchups, and then every character following that is in sequential order as they gain more and more unfavourable matchups.

I don't think Yoshi is middle of the pack when it comes to unfavourable matchups. I honestly think Luigi has a larger number of unfavourable matchups.

 

[Xandercosm]

I don't think it's too odd that Yoshi's downB can whiff after the first hit. Today I DI'd out of Sheik's fsmash after the first hit in an anthers match.

Moves that you THINK shouldn't whiff seem to do it quite often in Smash 4. I wonder whether there was a severe design oversight when it comes to this because they appear to have been frantically patching moves. I don't think there's been a single patch where somebody hasn't received a buff to fix whiffing in a multi hit move, even we received one for bair last patch.

It's odd for everyone.

Ultimately where he ranks is dependent on his matchups vs others isn't it? In my mind the highest character on a tierlist is the person with the fewest number of unfavourable matchups, and then every character following that is in sequential order as they gain more and more unfavourable matchups.

I don't think Yoshi is middle of the pack when it comes to unfavourable matchups. I honestly think Luigi has a larger number of unfavourable matchups.

I've never noticed that in Luigi. He seems to be pretty great all around with a few exceptions. But if that's the case, your'e saying Luigi would be low tier and Yoshi would be high tier? I'm just a little confused by what you meant.

 

[Skitrel]

I've never noticed that in Luigi. He seems to be pretty great all around with a few exceptions. But if that's the case, your'e saying Luigi would be low tier and Yoshi would be high tier? I'm just a little confused by what you meant.

No, all I'm saying is that there's no argument about whether Luigi is high tier correct? Yet if you agree Luigi has a good many unfavourable matchups, you can see where I'm coming from.

Luigi struggles with spacing characters that can outrange him. He also struggles greatly with hard hitters, he's got a severe problem with defensive play because of his friction. Hits on his shield can send him sliding out of range for a counter attack. This is very pronounced, for example Yoshi's nair against Luigi's shield is completely unpunishable because Luigi goes sliding out of range of any counter attack. He's reliant on perfect shielding in order to stop this occurring.

In a game where shielding and out of shield punishment is quite important this gives him some pretty bad matchups. He struggles with the sword users and he struggles with projectile camping. Yoshi by comparison can force opponents to approach because he's got a decent projectile game, so he doesn't struggle in the same way against projectile campers or space-control characters.

 

[Xandercosm]

No, all I'm saying is that there's no argument about whether Luigi is high tier correct? Yet if you agree Luigi has a good many unfavourable matchups, you can see where I'm coming from.

Luigi struggles with spacing characters that can outrange him. He also struggles greatly with hard hitters, he's got a severe problem with defensive play because of his friction. Hits on his shield can send him sliding out of range for a counter attack. This is very pronounced, for example Yoshi's nair against Luigi's shield is completely unpunishable because Luigi goes sliding out of range of any counter attack. He's reliant on perfect shielding in order to stop this occurring.

In a game where shielding and out of shield punishment is quite important this gives him some pretty bad matchups. He struggles with the sword users and he struggles with projectile camping. Yoshi by comparison can force opponents to approach because he's got a decent projectile game, so he doesn't struggle in the same way against projectile campers or space-control characters.

Yeah. I got ya. But that does prove my point even more. Every character has their weaknesses.

 

[Skitrel]

It does. But what are tiers based on if not number of bad matchups?

The tiers in my mind are the likelihood of a character winning a tournament if all players had perfectly equal skill. Characters at the top of the tierlist ought to be characters with the fewest bad matchups and characters at the bottom are characters with the most bad matchups.

It all comes down to who is most likely to win. So, the real question here is does Yoshi REALLY have many bad matchups? I don't think he does - ergo he is high tier. Not at the high end of high tier, Sheik wins the "fewest bad matchups" competition by a large margin, but I don't put him at the low end either.

Honestly, middle of high tier seems suitable. I think Luigi and Ness at the very least have more bad matchups than Yoshi does yet they're constantly agreed as high tier. I'd possibly argue even CFalcon has more negative matchups as he doesn't handle projectiles or camping too well.

Characters I'd be comfortable putting above Yoshi are:
Rosalina
Diddy
Fox
ZSS
Pikachu
Sonic

But who else? Would people here really argue that Luigi is strictly better? That he has fewer bad matchups? Mario? Villager? Lucas? Ryu? Roy? Greninja? ROB?

I'm just not comfortable saying with any certainty that anyone else in the cast belongs above Yoshi. I wouldn't say anyone else has fewer bad matchups than him and therefore that he belongs 7th on the tierlist. I could see an argument being made about Luigi, I can't see it being made for the rest. They all struggle more than Yoshi does in significantly more matchups.

If you want to be really picky you could call those 7 the top-tier and then fill the next tier with pretty much 70% of the rest of the cast, with only 3 tiers things get comfortable, I think I'd put Yoshi at the very top or very close to the top of the tier after those 7 though.

 

[Delta-cod]

It's worth noting that who those bad match ups are can also matter.

If you have a bad MU against Zelda, it's not gonna matter much because nobody plays her.

This is much more relevant for non top 3ish characters, since nobody will really pick up a pocket Zelda to beat Yoshi (unless you're dominating your region, then they might because of you).

But, say, Zelda was a counter to both Sheik and Yoshi, then the Zelda MU would matter more because you'd run into large amounts of pocket Zeldas, since they all exist already because of Sheik.

In general I agree that the tier list is basically a list of "who has less bad MUs", but there are cases where you need to look at the current meta and see if those bad MUs really matter.

 

[Skitrel]

Was that just an example plucked out of thin air because Zelda is bad or do you actually think Zelda beats Yoshi Delta?

I assume the first!

I agree by the way - I'm not trying to suggest that there isn't more nuance to it, but for the purposes of trying to break it down into words rather than feelings so that it can be objectively discussed some sort of dumbing down needs to occur for brevity.

 

[Delta-cod]

My wording implied it was just a hypothetical (the "say, ...."), but it might not have been entirely clear.

Nah, I think Zelda is booty. Definitely just the first obscure character I thought of.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

I made a post earlier in this thread that I'd like to rescind. I don't think Yoshi is very high tier. I based my earlier assessment on my own play against randoms. I've gotten to the point where I understand and can execute almost every technique that is available in this game (besides perfect pivots). I can also see when my opponents do the same, and i neglected to mention that they very rarely do.

However, in the one in a thousand chance they do know the game well, it's pretty obvious that Yoshi's options are comically limited.

His Fair is too slow, no disjoint. His Bair is also slow and extremely weak on the frame 11 hit, making it completely useless as a kill move at high percents. Yoshi's horizontal air game is garbage. This leaves Yoshi dependent on landing Nairs, but that, along with the endlag on Egg Toss and grab, make Yoshi the least safe character in the game.

Yoshi's dash is also among the worst dashes in the game, frame date wise. It's only good at punishing rolls away, and frame ten is embarrassingly bad. Compounded with the fact that f-tilt is also kind of a bad move, Yoshi can't retalitate to close quarter pressure against players who know what they are doing. I can understand why it was nerfed (angry roll spamming casuals), but it's so overrated and bad.

Yoshi's double jump takes him too high. Imagine if every character had to use their third jump every time they double jump? That's pretty much what Yoshi does. He can't jump > fient away > retaliate very well because he's 30 feet in the air every time you double jump.

In patches, they should do what they did with Bair to Dair. It needs to lock better. Full hop Dair's do two percent and then you get up smashed. The move is literally only good to use close to the ground or as a sub-optimal gimp, but knowing Nintendo they cater to casuals and will probably nerf it again (meanwhile, half the cast can ram their endlag into the ground as an unpunishable strategy).

What I said about Yoshi's sheild being to small remain my worst thing about Yoshi, but the horizontal air-game is 1.5 and Yoshi's high double jump is 2. Yoshi is just to vulnerable to beat people who play to 95% potential and upwards.

Because of these things, Yoshi is possibly the worst character in the game against a field of players playing at a ZeRo level. I don't understand why Yoshi has to have such unique drawbacks. I wish every character had some dumb unique shield, but Nintendo doesn't hate them.

 

[Skitrel]

I don't want to see dair lock better, it's currently useful to be able to break that lock with our own movement during the move for stage spikes or simply avoiding sending the opponent upwards with it when offstage.

If you make it lock better it'll drag people with us which is actually not the interaction I want from it.

You'll take utility away from it rather than improve anything. At the moment it's pretty useful.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

I don't want to see dair lock better, it's currently useful to be able to break that lock with our own movement during the move for stage spikes or simply avoiding sending the opponent upwards with it when offstage.

If you make it lock better it'll drag people with us which is actually not the interaction I want from it.

You'll take utility away from it rather than improve anything. At the moment it's pretty useful.

I respectfully disagree. Stage spikes are unreliable at best at a high level of play. You have to assume they will always be teched, which usually leads to a counter-edge guard (which Yoshi is kind of weak at on his own because of high DJ and low Up B). Being able to stage spike with Dair or Bair doesn't make them all around good moves. If anything, Dair stage spikes are more likely if you finish the move and knock them up and forward into the angled portion of the stage. The weak conventional spikes are nice, but against large portion of the cast, they can recover anyway. edit- I miss read the either or thing, but either way I think the move would be better with more on-stage utility. Most characters can avoid it entirely or plow through with up-b. Yoshi has a very narrow frame of time to use it off stage, can't fastfall it without dying.

What I'd like to do with Dair is full hop it to counter other character's jumps. It's two frames faster than Fair and actually has a lingering hit-box which lasts long enough punish air dodges. Sometimes, full hop dair is my only good option to hit someone at a certain point in time and space, but it is incredibly unrewarding.

Also, people who SDI well are very good at breaking free or just shielding in the middle of a well executed SH Dair and hard punishing. The move would be better strictly better if it's SDI modifier wer halved.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

What I'd like to do with Dair is full hop it to counter other character's jumps. It's two frames faster than Fair

Fair is frame 16, dair is frame 26

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Fair is frame 16, dair is frame 26

No, dair is frame 14. The frame data listed is inaccurate, it lumps together several hitboxes. The move starts when the auto cancel period ends on frame 14. Otherwise, SH Dair for 33% would be impossible, even considering hitlag.

On another note, truth is, every character has a faster bair of fair than Yoshi fair and bair. That's what makes Yoshi so bad against good players horizontally in the air.

 

[fuzyll]

Dair's purpose in Yoshi's kit, from a game design perspective, is to punish - hard. It's one of the highest damaging moves in the game for this reason. That's also why it doesn't lock and why it has high end-lag. It's supposed to be high risk/high reward. I get that you want to use it to "counter other character's jumps", but I don't think that's its intent.

Are you looking for us to have a Fair like Sheik's? Do we need one? How do other high-tier characters (say, Sonic, Rosalina, or Pikachu) compete in the air horizontally?

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Dair's purpose in Yoshi's kit, from a game design perspective, is to punish - hard. It's one of the highest damaging moves in the game for this reason. That's also why it doesn't lock and why it has high end-lag. It's supposed to be high risk/high reward. I get that you want to use it to "counter other character's jumps", but I don't think that's its intent.

Are you looking for us to have a Fair like Sheik's? Do we need one? How do other high-tier characters (say, Sonic, Rosalina, or Pikachu) compete in the air horizontally?

No, we don't have a Fair like Shieks. We don't even have a Bair like Ganondorf. Every character has one or two side airs faster than both of Yoshi's. Just look at the frame data. EVERY character has one or two faster side airs that Yoshi. They are much better equiped to compete.

As it is, Yoshi must use all air attack preemptively in order to have a chance to hit and not be hit first. He cannot reactively air attack very well.

It might not be a 'need' but it would certainly help. This is the 'Yoshi isn't high tier' thread after all. Shiek is top tier for a reason and that reason is air attacks bellow frame ten (five or fewer frames, actually).

'Countering other characters jumps' is a little more important than your quotations would suggests. Dair is a faster air attack that Fair, even horizontally. I can speak of the Yoshi dittos where I beat out their Fair with my Dair in the air. Sometimes I do get a solid 20% out of full-hop Dair, but only against bads who don't SDI and punish.

Another thing...Yoshi might have a frame three Nair, but at this point, I don't think it's even a top ten Nair in the game. Other characters have more utility with Nair. Yoshi's doesn't last long enough and has a small hitbox. It's best attribute is it's ability to cancel random combos, but other than that it is inferior to many other Nairs.

Edit - sorry for edit but this belongs here - everything wrong with all of Yoshi's moves.

Shield - Poor radius.
Roll - statistically worst roll in game (Samus is better tbh)
Dodges - not top tier data.
Dash (run) - too long, can't put up shield fast enough.
Double jump - too high to fient with
Jab - can be shield grabbed after one hit of jab combo.
F-Tilt - no range, insane endlag.
D-Tilt - One of the slowest, weakest d-tilts in the game.
U-tilt. Incredibly overrated, slow, weak, barely combos.
Dash attack - Bottom 15 in terms of frame data, kills at 200%, get smashed type of endlag.
F-smash - 1 frame of damage. No disjoint = vulnerable state afterwards.
D-smash - Relatively slow. Inconsistent second hit. Very weak KO potential.
U-smash - Pretty good but still a slow u-smash. Other characters have vastly superior JC OoS U-smash.
Nair - Fast but unsafe. Must be overused because Fair and Bair are too slow.
Fair - Slower than F-smash. No lingering hitbox. Vulnerability before and after the move completes (even when used in such a way to avoid landing lag).
Bair - Still doesn't lock when you need it to. Only works when used very specifically (before you're close to the opponent). It's good as a full-hop into landing opponent, but is slower than one of every character's side airs. 10% for a frame 11 three hit move.
Dair - Poor locking, easily punished.
Uair - Fast. but minuscule, two frame hitbox and Yoshis ridiculous double jump make it harder to punish airdodges than with other characters.
Grabs - Slow with no combos or kill throws. Only good for baiting the landings of bad players. At least ZSS has followups, Yoshi just has a bad grab game entirely.
Neutral B - Nerfed so tip of tounge does not catch opponent. Frame 21 command grab OP?
Side B - No need to say.
Down B - Extremely punishable. Inconsistent locking with first hit. Doesn't really break shields unless your opponent lets it (only does about 75% shield damage)
Up B - Terrible endlag, easy to block, not enough damage, often does 1%.

 

[fuzyll]

No offense, but I feel like maybe you shouldn't be playing Yoshi? Yes, you can point out why every single one of his moves is "bad". But, you could do the same thing for any other character, including Sheik. You are completely ignoring all the good things about these moves just to suit your argument that the character is flawed.

Guess what? All characters are flawed. If your definition of a "high tier" character is that an option exists for every single possibility that beats all other characters, then I'm afraid you are going to be extremely unhappy with all past, present, and future iterations of every character in the game.

This current conversation isn't constructive. We don't need more, "Did you know Yoshi's grab has no follow-ups?" or "Yoshi's air game is actually bad." Why does Yoshi need a grab? Why do we need an ultra-safe air option? What tools do we have available (like his much faster command-grab that most players, excepting Raptor, ignore) that could be used? How should we be applying those tools?

 

[YoshiYoshi]

No offense, but I feel like maybe you shouldn't be playing Yoshi? Yes, you can point out why every single one of his moves is "bad". But, you could do the same thing for any other character, including Sheik. You are completely ignoring all the good things about these moves just to suit your argument that the character is flawed.

Guess what? All characters are flawed. If your definition of a "high tier" character is that an option exists for every single possibility that beats all other characters, then I'm afraid you are going to be extremely unhappy with all past, present, and future iterations of every character in the game.

This current conversation isn't constructive. We don't need more, "Did you know Yoshi's grab has no follow-ups?" or "Yoshi's air game is actually bad." Why does Yoshi need a grab? Why do we need an ultra-safe air option? What tools do we have available (like his much faster command-grab that most players, excepting Raptor, ignore) that could be used? How should we be applying those tools?

I play Yoshi because I've alwayed played Yoshi and I wouldn't play this game for any other character. I either play Yoshi, or I don't play this game (with few exceptions).

I wouldn't barge into a constructive 'how do we play Yoshi better' thread and say he isn't viable.This is the 'Yoshi isn't high tier -evidence inside'. Not High tier. Evidence.

My contribution was constructive because I included definitive evidence for why Yoshi isn't high tier, and possibly isn't viable in a tournament full of high level players. Yoshi might be able to beat up on the scrubbly lower to mid end player, but the character is incredibly disadvantaged against every character with a competent pilot.

At this point, it would be nice if Yoshi had the tools to be high tier because I've gotten good enough at this game where I can stomp hundreds of scrubs in a row but lose terribly to someone who is as good at the game as I am (or very slightly better). At any rate, this thread exists to provide evidence for something that might take five years to be proven, but will be proven.

I've made threads similar to this in the past on other forums, but after almost a year of playing and improving this game, I can say confidently that Yoshi, as is, is probably not viable at high level tournaments, unless you ignore the top table.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

No, dair is frame 14. The frame data listed is inaccurate, it lumps together several hitboxes. The move starts when the auto cancel period ends on frame 14. Otherwise, SH Dair for 33% would be impossible, even considering hitlag.

Just checked it myself with a capture card and you're right (sorta)! The frame data listed is wrong, and dair actually starts on frame 16. Certainly changes my perception of the move.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Just checked it myself with a capture card and you're right (sorta)! The frame data listed is wrong, and dair actually starts on frame 16. Certainly changes my perception of the move.

Interesting...I've never been able to observes frame by frame.

Question if you don't mind...where does it start? The front of his feet, the back, or all over? Maybe it's frame 16 in one place and frame 14 at the tips of his toes. I can swear from experience that it's slightly faster than Fair, but you have the tools to measure and I don't.

Edit - it definately changed my perception of the move when I realized the same (I posted in another thread about it but got no reply). Unfortunately, that only made me think Yoshi might be high tier for another month or two, blinding me from cruel realities.

Edit edit - You know what, frame 16 sounds about right. The difference being The hitbox for Fair starts above his head and hits grounded opponents slightly later than a Dair would. The frame 16 on Fair mostly applies to the top of Yoshi's head, not the downward swinging motion.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

It starts when Yoshi brings his legs back toward the center for the first time. It really doesn't match the animations at all there. lol I had initially tested on the statues in Castle Siege so missing a percise hitbox was impossible. As far as where the hitboxes are, it seems to match up with the shock waves or w/e you wanna call them.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

It starts when Yoshi brings his legs back toward the center for the first time. It really doesn't match the animations at all there. lol I had initially tested on the statues in Castle Siege so missing a percise hitbox was impossible. As far as where the hitboxes are, it seems to match up with the shock waves or w/e you wanna call them.

Well thank you for that and all of your hard word advancing the Yoshi meta. I wish you great luck and skill going forward. I may not be putting my money down on my ability to win tournaments with Yoshi and time soon, but I would be happy to see anyone do well with the character, but more especially someone who really loves the character.

I would probably cry a never ending fountain of tears of joy to win so much as a 50 man tournament with Yoshi...but those devils at Nintendo truly do not like this character (why else would he be included as a 'shootable character' in Snake Eater 3DS?).

 

[RaptorTEC]

@ Y YoshiYoshi You're looking at everything too negatively. As fuzyll said, everyone has downsides but that doesn't mean the character overall is bad. "Only does 75% shield damage" How much more do you want? that's an insane amount of shield damage lol. That's only one example but a lot of the negatives you listed are exaggerated or just looked at too pessimistically. I can do the same thing and make your negatives into something good. Mine is in bold.

Shield - Poor radius.
Poor radius but can't be shield poked

Dodges - not top tier data.
but due to Yoshis mobility excessive dodging isn't necessary on the ground and Yoshis airdodge is fine

Dash (run) - too long, can't put up shield fast enough.
still a fairly fast dash though and combined with short hopping the long animation isn't as bad

Double jump - too high to fient with
its too high but that also works in our favor. It's not a bad thing it depends what the situation calls for. If it's one of the moments where it would work against us we need to improvise and do something else. Personally I like the high jump it sets up for frame traps easier imo

Jab - can be shield grabbed after one hit of jab combo.
but jab mixups are amazing and can setup to kills it's also a fast jab

F-Tilt - no range, insane endlag.
Yoshis worst move imo

D-Tilt - One of the slowest, weakest d-tilts in the game.
it's a good spacing tool and tilts aren't supposed to be strong only a few are. A weak tilt can also setup for strings better

U-tilt. Incredibly overrated, slow, weak, barely combos.
great move. Disagree with everything. Once again weak tilt doesn't matter. Combos at low percents and can combo into uair kill at certain percents against fast fallers. Perfect pivot utilt is really good as well

Dash attack - Bottom 15 in terms of frame data, kills at 200%, get smashed type of endlag.
dash attacks aren't supposed to kill. Majority of missed dash attacks are easily punishable. You're only supposed to dash attack when you know it will hit. If you do hit with it it sends the opponent in a really awkward angle which favors Yoshi nicely. The fact that it isn't strong makes it easier to follow up after it.

F-smash - 1 frame of damage. No disjoint = vulnerable state afterwards.
smash attacks are supposed to be vulnerable if missed. Only a select few aren't. Don't miss. It might have one frame to hit but if you know what you're doing that doesn't matter.

D-smash - Relatively slow. Inconsistent second hit. Very weak KO potential.
jab to damash is a lot more gauranteed then the other smash attacks and is great on fast fallers.

U-smash - Pretty good but still a slow u-smash. Other characters have vastly superior JC OoS U-smash.
as you said it's pretty good

Nair - Fast but unsafe. Must be overused because Fair and Bair are too slow.
combo breaker. Weak nair can combo. Good for punishing getups with the lingering hitbox

Fair - Slower than F-smash. No lingering hitbox. Vulnerability before and after the move completes (even when used in such a way to avoid landing lag).
still a good move to have especially if you hit with it. All around good spacing tool and has a huge hitbox.

Bair - Still doesn't lock when you need it to. Only works when used very specifically (before you're close to the opponent). It's good as a full-hop into landing opponent, but is slower than one of every character's side airs. 10% for a frame 11 three hit move.
the tail not locking is rare but when that does happen on stage and they fall out and you're not too far off the ground you can combo into anything you want. I like when this happens and I'm literally right where they land. Good move to catch people out of egglay since you don't have to put yourself in the danger area. This move kills really early sometimes I'm not sure why.

Dair - Poor locking, easily punished.
whether it locks or not is up to you based on your movement. The move not locking can also be a good thing. Does massive damage and can be even more rewarding afterwards too. High risk high reward.

Uair - Fast. but minuscule, two frame hitbox and Yoshis ridiculous double jump make it harder to punish airdodges than with other characters
fast and great kill move. Two frame hitbox doesn't matter if you know how to time punishes

Neutral B - Nerfed so tip of tounge does not catch opponent. Frame 21 command grab OP?
still a great move. Without the threat of this move Yoshi would be bad. Allows for conditioning. Great spacing tool. Great landing tool. Great for mixups. Good followups if you know what you're doing.

Side B - No need to say.
I actually like this move lol. It's a gimmick though but if I do pull it off I get silly punishes. I'd argue his ftilt is worse

Down B - Extremely punishable. Inconsistent locking with first hit. Doesn't really break shields unless your opponent lets it (only does about 75% shield damage)
kills early if fresh. Can break shields which not many moves can do. 75% is insane.

Up B - Terrible endlag, easy to block, not enough damage, often does 1%.
does 1% RARELY. Great move overall sets up for kills and combos

 

[YoshiYoshi]

@ Y YoshiYoshi You're looking at everything too negatively. As fuzyll said, everyone has downsides but that doesn't mean the character overall is bad. "Only does 75% shield damage" How much more do you want? that's an insane amount of shield damage lol. That's only one example but a lot of the negatives you listed are exaggerated or just looked at too pessimistically. I can do the same thing and make your negatives into something good. Mine is in bold.

I apologize for looking at things negatively. Unfortunately, I believe I am looking at things realistically based on data and experience, but the data speaks for itself.

I have a Google spreadsheet that compiles all frame data into an easily sortable and viewable format...it is not pretty for Yoshi's. There are so many ways to describe Yoshi's inferiority using real numbers.

I can't say for 100% sure that my play experience is indicative of Yoshi's viability, you're probably better than me, but I am well aware of when my character has outright inferior tools to my opponent. Over the course of time, it has become clear that when played correctly, every character beats Yoshi. If you subtract baiting/mindgames/mistakes from the equation, using raw numbers, Yoshi is pretty bad.

At any rate, with no intention of questioning your intelligence and skill, I will counter your good things with bad things!

Shield - Poor radius.
Poor radius but can't be shield poked
Except for Pac Man's Up-Special. Pac Man is a nightmare MU for Yoshi and I've played a God Pac before the combos went viral. Poor radius is the be all, end all for Yoshi's sheild...it's terrible it's like always having a half strength shield whereas other characters recover and perfect shield more often to compensate for vulnerability and low strength.

Dodges - not top tier data.
but due to Yoshis mobility excessive dodging isn't necessary on the ground and Yoshis airdodge is fine
Yoshi has a frame 3 air dodge while characters like Sheik, Pikachu, ZSS, MK, Sonic, Fox and more AD on frame 2. Not a high tier air dodge. Yoshi can SHAD Nair and Uair, but to be honest it only works because opponents don't understand it.

Dash (run) - too long, can't put up shield fast enough.
still a fairly fast dash though and combined with short hopping the long animation isn't as bad
It's one frame slower than U-smash...I don't think that's very quick. It's really slow. 42 characters (excluding DLC) have equal or faster dashes, 25 of them dash frame 7 or lower, 9 characters can dash as fast as Yoshi can F-tilt (Sheik included)

Double jump - too high to fient with
its too high but that also works in our favor. It's not a bad thing it depends what the situation calls for. If it's one of the moments where it would work against us we need to improvise and do something else. Personally I like the high jump it sets up for frame traps easier imo

Jab - can be shield grabbed after one hit of jab combo.
but jab mixups are amazing and can setup to kills it's also a fast jab
I'm aware that Yoshi can follow up jab with Usmash, Fsmash, Dsmash, Down B and they all look like they combo, but none of them are true combos. The mixups generally only work if the opponent is playing poorly.

F-Tilt - no range, insane endlag.
Yoshis worst move imo
But it's Yoshi's only standing move besides Jab that's in the top ten starting frame data for that move (almost everything else is bottom 1/4th, called low tier). It is, ironically, a bad move though.

D-Tilt - One of the slowest, weakest d-tilts in the game.
it's a good spacing tool and tilts aren't supposed to be strong only a few are. A weak tilt can also setup for strings better
But for a tilt so slow, it's bad. 39 characters (excluding DLC) have a faster or equal dtilt (frame 8), 25 have a dtilt faster than frame 6. Every D-tilt slower than Yoshi's except for Puff's does a lot of damage and can KO at reasonable percentages. A handful faster can kill also. D-tilt combos into nothing that can't be DIed or teched (unless I'm missing something).

U-tilt. Incredibly overrated, slow, weak, barely combos.
great move. Disagree with everything. Once again weak tilt doesn't matter. Combos at low percents and can combo into uair kill at certain percents against fast fallers. Perfect pivot utilt is really good as well
IDK, I don't PP so I guess I don't understand. It's got good range, and maybe combos sometimes close to KO range. It's just a little slow and endlaggy for an utilt with no true KO potential. Once again, 37 characters have a faster or equal up tilt.

Dash attack - Bottom 15 in terms of frame data, kills at 200%, get smashed type of endlag.
dash attacks aren't supposed to kill. Majority of missed dash attacks are easily punishable. You're only supposed to dash attack when you know it will hit. If you do hit with it it sends the opponent in a really awkward angle which favors Yoshi nicely. The fact that it isn't strong makes it easier to follow up after it.
Then why do Peach's and Zelda's dash kill? Why did big bad Ike just get a buff so his dash is a stronk as Yoshi's F-smash? Sometimes, if the opponent is playing carefully enough, dash is the only move you can hit them with and the move just won't finish the deal. It covers a lot of ground, punishes rolls away, but that's all it does well. It's a liability. Top tiers dash on frame 5 or 6. Yoshi has Ganondorf dash speed with Sheik power and knockback.

F-smash - 1 frame of damage. No disjoint = vulnerable state afterwards.
smash attacks are supposed to be vulnerable if missed. Only a select few aren't. Don't miss. It might have one frame to hit but if you know what you're doing that doesn't matter.
But it's functionally worse than Sheik or Diddy who can punish spotdodges and cover other options just by pressing F-Smash. A good player can take advantage of a lingering F-smash more than one with a single frame of damage. Yoshi's is particularly vulnerable, compared to others who summon a baseball bat or other objects to hit you with.

D-smash - Relatively slow. Inconsistent second hit. Very weak KO potential.
jab to damash is a lot more gauranteed then the other smash attacks and is great on fast fallers.
I know, I've been doing jab to d-smash before I knew it was a thing. It's nice, but it can be DIed like everything else out of jab 1.

U-smash - Pretty good but still a slow u-smash. Other characters have vastly superior JC OoS U-smash.
as you said it's pretty good
Yes, but ranked 24th in frame data. Not a high tier u-smash, would be better on another character.

Nair - Fast but unsafe. Must be overused because Fair and Bair are too slow.
combo breaker. Weak nair can combo. Good for punishing getups with the lingering hitbox
But it's all Yoshi has. Luigi laughs while his dair is his 12th best option.

Fair - Slower than F-smash. No lingering hitbox. Vulnerability before and after the move completes (even when used in such a way to avoid landing lag).
still a good move to have especially if you hit with it. All around good spacing tool and has a huge hitbox.
A faster fair is a better Fair. Yoshi's take 16 to start, only has 4 frames of damage, and is vulnerable until you land. Fair is actaully bad to hit with at 0% because it has base knockback 0. You get punished if you hit with Fair at 0%.

Bair - Still doesn't lock when you need it to. Only works when used very specifically (before you're close to the opponent). It's good as a full-hop into landing opponent, but is slower than one of every character's side airs. 10% for a frame 11 three hit move.
the tail not locking is rare but when that does happen on stage and they fall out and you're not too far off the ground you can combo into anything you want. I like when this happens and I'm literally right where they land. Good move to catch people out of egglay since you don't have to put yourself in the danger area. This move kills really early sometimes I'm not sure why.
I'm not going to tell you exactly what I hate about Bair, but I mentioned it earlier and I'm very mad at Bair today. The frame 11 poke at high percents is useless. That's all.

Dair - Poor locking, easily punished.
whether it locks or not is up to you based on your movement. The move not locking can also be a good thing. Does massive damage and can be even more rewarding afterwards too. High risk high reward.
The SDI modifier for this move is 1.5. That means it's easier to SDI out of than most moves. There are circumstances where they are guaranteed to take it (direct blow, SH Dair), but on glancing blows (95% of hits at high level play) it's a terrible move that trades bad and gets punished hard). It only locks if your opponent lets it lock them by not using SDI.

Uair - Fast. but minuscule, two frame hitbox and Yoshis ridiculous double jump make it harder to punish airdodges than with other characters fast and great kill move. Two frame hitbox doesn't matter if you know how to time punishes.
I suppose, but you put excessive strain on yourself as a player to use it. It is a mid tier up air. Top tier up airs are Shiek, Palutena, Rob, maybe Greninja, definitely ZSS. They either have range, lingering hitboxes, or both. Yoshi has neither, but he does have natural movement.

Neutral B - Nerfed so tip of tounge does not catch opponent. Frame 21 command grab OP?
still a great move. Without the threat of this move Yoshi would be bad. Allows for conditioning. Great spacing tool. Great landing tool. Great for mixups. Good followups if you know what you're doing.
Yoshi is bad even with this move because great players anticipate it. Great player can react to it. 20 frames is enough time to identify the wave bounce and avoid. It's risky to try and attack the egg because great players destroy Yoshi out of egg.

Side B - No need to say.
I actually like this move lol. It's a gimmick though but if I do pull it off I get silly punishes. I'd argue his ftilt is worse
So do I, that's why I didn't want to say. Unfortunately, my use of side B is emblematic of Yoshi being good against bad players but trash against gods. I get so much mindgame mileage against 99% of who I face, but 1% of players will punish this move so hard, so consistently.

Down B - Extremely punishable. Inconsistent locking with first hit. Doesn't really break shields unless your opponent lets it (only does about 75% shield damage)
kills early if fresh. Can break shields which not many moves can do. 75% is insane.
But they perfect shield it more often than not. It has to be a perfectly clean hit or you'll be punished.

Up B - Terrible endlag, easy to block, not enough damage, often does 1%.
does 1% RARELY. Great move overall sets up for kills and combos
The endlag is really bad though. Samus Charge shot has less endlag.




Sorry for not condensing that, don't know how. Anyways, I'm just speaking for truth, not for negativity. Yoshi is a great character casually, but assuming that all players know all techniques and strats, Yoshi isn't a good competitive character.

/////////EDIT

I'd like to make known that this final realization I've had about Yoshi isn't new, it's just very rare that I am able to confirm it.

He is very easy and dominant versus low level players while being difficult and disadvantaged versus against great players. The grim truth is that it's not because Yoshi is a complex character - it's because he's statistically and fundamentally inferior.

I don't expect the community to believe me all of a sudden, but I feel as though my analysis will stand the test of time. I know too much about the game at this point and can tell anyone exactly what is holding Yoshi back. Maybe I don't know something about Dtilt or Utilt, but there can't be anything left very gamebreaking that I don't already know about and consider.

Although there are many more reasons why Yoshi isn't even viable that I haven't mentioned (involving anecdotes and comparisons), I will no longer participate in these forums because I don't enjoy saying bad things about my favorite character, although Yoshi is just a figment of our imaginations, a set of numbers in a system and it's just a game...

I wish everyone good games and good times.

there are some inaccuracies that I have made in my analysis but none that diminish from my broader argument.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Except for Pac Man's Up-Special. Pac Man is a nightmare MU for Yoshi and I've played a God Pac before the combos went viral. Poor radius is the be all, end all for Yoshi's sheild...it's terrible it's like always having a half strength shield whereas other characters recover and perfect shield more often to compensate for vulnerability and low strength.

I'm going to make this point here. His shield is an upgrade to everyone else's shield. It's smaller radius would mean he has to care about shield stun less if his shield is hit less for being smaller along with caring about shield breaks less, and to top it off he can't be shield poked. The only bad thing about his shield is having the worst shield grab in the game and the worst rolls, but that's not related to the shield itself.

 

[Yikarur]

Smaller Radius means projectiles are harder to powershield.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

ok 1 real downside.

 

[Delta-cod]

What projectiles out there are worth power shielding anyways?

By my count, it's worthless against:

Sheik - Needles are multihit
Rosy - Luma Star Bits are multihit
Sonic - No projectile
Brawler - No projectile worth shielding
Ness - No projectile worth shielding

There are plenty of other options against:

Luigi - Fireballs travel linearly and are slow, you're better off dodging.
Mario - Just get under him
Pikachu - You should be under him as well.

It would be useful against:

Villager - I guess? We're better off using our mobility for punishes anyways.

 

[ReturningFall]

I seem to recall Yoshi being considered really good when Brawl first came out (not Meta Knight/Snake level, but at least better than Marth) within about a year after release. (there was a lot of stuff about "Yoshi being viable now")

That said, my memory is a little fuzzy. Does anyone else remember way back when?

Smaller Radius means projectiles are harder to powershield.

Not just projectiles, We get a very slight (Marth tipper?) distance between our nose and the shield. Most characters get something like the opposite. This little bit of space can make perfect shielding certain things harder/impossible which can limit our (theoretical) punish options due to powershield buffering (i.e. we can possibly beat out spacing attempts with, say, Fsmash)

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi was terrible in Brawl from the beginning. He was the sixth lowest character in the very first tier list iirc. And he just rose to mid tier because people have been terrible at the MU.

 

[fuzyll]

there are some inaccuracies that I have made in my analysis but none that diminish from my broader argument.

Not that it matters if you're going into self-exile, but you aren't really wrong. The negative things you're pointing out about Yoshi are mostly true! Unfortunately, I still have to disagree with your "broader argument".

You think these negative things prevent him from being "high tier". I simply think they require the player to be better. The average player can get more out of, say, Captain Falcon than Yoshi. But, I firmly believe Yoshi is the better character in terms of potential. He's just really hard to play optimally.

What do people here think about ESAM placing Yoshi at 7th on his tier list video on Sunday? For those who missed it, it's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEe08ahv0jo&t=9m31s. Not sure why he didn't list Raptor with Sky and KDB, but the rest of what he says is fairly on-point (though, Jab -> Usmash isn't a guaranteed combo like he makes it sound) - especially about Egg Lay.

 

[Sinister Slush]

He mentioned kdb?

 

[fuzyll]

He mentioned kdb?

Yes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEe08ahv0jo&t=10m45s

Also, I said I thought most of what he said was on point. Forgot to mention that I still think 7th is a bit high. Just arguing that ESAM also doesn't seem to feel his lack of certain options is enough to push him out of "high tier".

 

[ReturningFall]

Yoshi was terrible in Brawl from the beginning. He was the sixth lowest character in the very first tier list iirc. And he just rose to mid tier because people have been terrible at the MU.

This is what I get for being on GameFAQs at the time...Could've sworn he was considered "massively buffed" and "viable" for the first couple months.

PSA kiddies: Smashboards>>>>GameFAQs

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Just to follow up on some of the stuff I said in this thread...I don't think Yoshi is so bad that he just get's BLOWN AWAY by equally skilled opponents, but is at a consistent disadvantage for a variety of technical reasons.

I don't think Yoshi has any true favorable MU except for maybe large frame characters that get minced by Dair. It's like every other MU is 45:55 at best when played correctly. I don't think Yoshi has any MUs worse than 40:60, but very few of them are truly favorable.

The only saving grace might be that Yoshi doesn't have as terrible a Sheik MU as people might think, but that's only because I consistently body Sheiks online with Nair alone and have yet to play against a true master of the character.

With the way the meta is developing, it seems a character with a good Sheik MU and terrible everything else could be considered high tier. Of course, Yoshi's Sheik MU isn't that good, and his other MUs aren't that bad.

I definitely don't underestimate characters in the roster. I was right about a lot of the recent tier movements (MK), I don't underestimate the advantages of characters like Link, and Zelda isn't as bad as everyone thinks.

This game is very well balanced, but the differences in character balance can only be observed at high skill play. Small differences in balance make a big difference in high skill play.

 

[fuzyll]

Dabuz also places Yoshi as a "high tier" character, but at 17 instead of ESAM's 7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IokTZ78pU_I&t=7m25s. His comments are more negative than ESAM's, but I think his criticisms are interesting. He pins a lot of the problem on Yoshi's better options requiring him being in the air, which puts him at a disadvantage. I agree with this, but I'm not 100% certain it's because of the character. Have we thoroughly explored Yoshi's ground game?

I don't think Yoshi has any true favorable MU except for maybe large frame characters that get minced by Dair. It's like every other MU is 45:55 at best when played correctly. I don't think Yoshi has any MUs worse than 40:60, but very few of them are truly favorable.

I...actually don't think I'm good enough to be commenting on specific match-ups. ESAM thinks we have a great match-up against Little Mac, but I tend to go 50/50 with the best Little Mac locally. I also totally wreck our local <insert any sword character here>, which Raptor and others feel we're bad against. Even with For Glory experience thrown in, I just don't think I'm currently playing at a level where match-up considerations are truly a wall.

What I can say is that, based on opinions from a large number of sources (Reddit, SmashBoards, YouTube, Twitter, etc), I still feel you're being way too pessimistic. Yoshi has plenty of good match-ups! He just doesn't have very many great match-ups. And I agree that our not-so-terrible match-up against Sheik, in the current meta, might even make Yoshi deserving of a "high tier" spot regardless of whatever else we're discussing.

 

[Mister E]

I find it funny that the most popular thread in months are overreacting on how bad Yoshi is. There is litle to no research and character development going on here now.

Honestly i feel like this board consist of a lot a Yoshi players that have been Yoshi mains for several games, and i believe that some people might feel like they still HAVE to be loyal to their old main, even if Yoshi doesn't really match their playstyle in this game.

Think about it, Yoshi is a completely diffrent character than he has been in any game, and he should be played completely diffrent. Veteran Yoshi players might have to think new and diffrent in order to succeed.

Yoshi is a character that is very fast, has a VERY good way of forcing enemies to approach him, and a great anti Air game. His strengths on paper seem like he's a fast combo oriented aerial figther, while in reality this is misleading. His strengths comes from a defensive punish playstyle. He has tools to deal with most tactics and speed to reward good players reactions.

What im getting at here is that Yoshi is definately a high tier character, but he might force you to think and play diffrently than you did when you picked up the character. It's no shame in changing a main if he doesn't fit your liking

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I'm not sure if you're implying Egg Toss forces an opponent to approach because in reality it doesn't.

I mostly agree on your points on how Yoshi is in this game, but I thought I'd mention that's kinda how he was in brawl too (I think).

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi is a character that is very fast, has a VERY good way of forcing enemies to approach him, and a great anti Air game. His strengths on paper seem like he's a fast combo oriented aerial figther, while in reality this is misleading. His strengths comes from a defensive punish playstyle. He has tools to deal with most tactics and speed to reward good players reactions.

Could you describe what you think his great anti-air game is? I find it quite lacking with the removal of pivot grab's speed and the changes to Usmash (less invincibility). Maybe he's got some new options I'm (we're) not quite seeing.

 

[Mister E]

Egg toss is one of the strongest projectiles in the game, It deals lots of damage compared to it's speed, it's very spammable, you can use it on the ground and jump cancel it to give yourself some extra space while throwing it. In the air its a litle more risky, but you it grants you the abillity to throw the eggs VERY far, and due to the mobility it provides you can use it to check for openings, and dodge projectiles while still throwing one. Even campy characters have problems dealing with egg toss. Mix them up and don't get too predictable.

Yeah sure, they can be powershield but it still generally forces people to apporach.

Yoshis anti air consists of PP Uptilt, Upsmash, Jump cancelled EggToss, Pivot grabs, shield to nair Out of shield, or jab, spot doding and Uair.

Uptilt covers a lot of range, and yes it's a litle slow, but one of the most rewarding attacks to hit with, early game it combos hard, later in the game it can lead to a upair to the kill. Upsmash is still ridicilously strong anti air, it has a bigger hitbox than it looks, its fast, and it can be jump cancelled if you need a better position. Oh And it kills veeery early. An early low powered diagonal egg toss is very good anti air if timed right as it will cover a large distance, last long enough for you to combo out of it if it hits, and in case the enemy lands and tries to grab you the egg wil lsave you. Reccomeded t be done jump canceled on ground tough as it makes the move much safer in case things go wrong.

Also if everything goes wrong, shielding and SH Nair pretty much beats everything but command grabs. Worst case you hit the enemies sheild and can use the time to back off and force them to approach again.

Pivot grab still comes out fast and covers atleast more range than a regular grab (like Marios), but i'm not a big fan of it due to how risky it is with its ridiciluse ending lag. Still if you see people shield a lot after they land it is basicly a free grab.

Of course his anti air isn't without flaws, but in general it's very safe, can be extremely rewarding, and covers a lot of potential approach options. Of course there are characters that have less problems approaching but that doesn't mean his anti air isn't very good.

Also i don't appreciate the sarcasm of "Maybe he's got some new options I'm (we're) not quite seeing.", but yeah if you don't think about the potential of his moves then you're not going to see anything, because honestly i can't possibly see how his anti air is lacking at all..