Unpopular opinion: Yoshi is not high tier. Evidence inside.

[YoHeKing]

Theres people up there that shouldn't even really be up there. Congratz to them and big congratz to raptor and any other yoshi that got far.

Edit: Wow esam is going against ZeRo with Yoshi...

 

[Fuerzo]

Raptor was really impressive. Disappointed he didn't make Top 8, but I don't blame DK Will for opting for Sheik -- DK is basically free for us.

And yeah, uh, ESAM.

 

[Skitrel]

Shout out to ESAM rocking the Yoshi in the Sheik matchup against Zero.

It wasn't bad, I look forwards to the sideline analysis that's going to appear here when the vod is available, in the meantime my main thoughts during the match were:

His eggthrow aim was off.

He flubbed utilts out of shield where Yoshi mains would have got nair out of shield to hit. I assume this is because he has habits from playing Pikachu or other characters.

Very little egglay action. Didn't seem to use eggs as an approach tool.

There was one very nice demonstration of airdodging fair offstage frametrapping into nair. I think ESAM whiffed the nair though. Requires extreme precision.

Verdict: Yoshi viable. Requires more precision. Time will see him rise higher.

 

[YoHeKing]

Shout out to ESAM rocking the Yoshi in the Sheik matchup against Zero.

It wasn't bad, I look forwards to the sideline analysis that's going to appear here when the vod is available, in the meantime my main thoughts during the match were:

His eggthrow aim was off.

He flubbed utilts out of shield where Yoshi mains would have got nair out of shield to hit. I assume this is because he has habits from playing Pikachu or other characters.

Very little egglay action. Didn't seem to use eggs as an approach tool.

There was one very nice demonstration of airdodging fair offstage frametrapping into nair. I think ESAM whiffed the nair though. Requires extreme precision.

Verdict: Yoshi viable. Requires more precision. Time will see him rise higher.

I feel like ESAM has a bad yoshi... But just a yoshi. Hes such a good player that being a bad Yoshi wasn't as bad as he seemed. He was almost pulling off bouncing fish punishes which nobody really even does. I brought that up awhile back but all I heard was its to hard to react to.

Edit: Bouncing fish shield punishes

 

[White_Pointer]

So, just wanted to point out that Raptor is currently top-12 at Smash Con: http://supersmashcon.challonge.com/wiiusingles. :D

EDIT: Super unfortunate time-out on the first match against DKWill... Actually pretty confident Raptor could have won that.

Solid result! Nice.

However that set against DK Will really highlighted what we've been saying about Yoshi's lack of kill setups. In the first game at least he had DK Will at kill percentage and just couldn't get the KO. The second game was unfortunately a bit one sided.

Still, congrats to Raptor, top 12 is a good showing.

 

[JBones]

Thanks @ Delta-cod I'll try it out

 

[Peppa]

Random quick question and wasn't sure to post here (since we are discussing Yoshi's options) or the QA thread, but how much has been worked on when it comes to grab releasing?

Yes I'm aware it isn't 100% guaranteed to hit the jabs after a release but you nail it most of the time, as well as Yoshi's grab being slow. However just due to conditioning when you b-reverse or wavebounce neutral B you always hit the egg lay, because most people are wary of shielding for eggs or spaced fairs so they are not expecting a grab.
One thing that I've been working on that has seen some results but is somewhat challenging is at high percents people cling on to holding shield against Yoshi, tomahawking or whatever else to get the grab, to pummel until they grab release, into jab 1 usmash or jab 1 down b.
It can be hard to nail consistently because if you pummel too fast you'll just end up buffering the double jab but its been working as a great kill set up which Yoshi can be lacking, but with some practice has opened up great kills against some Anther's people. A lot of the time I'll just double jab which is fine but hopefully it'll get better.

Anyways, all I've seen is grab release into jab 1-2 but has any other set ups like this been found to be decent with a grab release?

 

[Skitrel]

Grab release is a fundamental mixup.

Test your opponent's reaction to it and you can see how useful it will be against them very quickly.

There's a lot of metagame to test with it, just the other day I encountered a Marth who had worked out that he can upB as a counter to it, I then discovered that Yoshi can shield before the upB after the grab release (without throwing jabs) in order to punish the Marth's reliance on upB to get out of jab release.

There's a lot of directions for it to go however. A lot relies on your opponent. Remember that they can ALL shield immediately after the release. This can be re-grabbed. Alternatively if your opponent is slightly slower then release>12>downB can often work as a shield break combo that forces them to either take a hit, shield break or have excellent roll timing.

Honestly though - Anyone that's properly good at the game knows the Yoshi matchup and knows their counter options to his grab release. Don't expect it to work and make sure you're working on the assumption your opponent knows about it until you've thoroughly tested them.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

You can't regrab after grab release.

 

[White_Pointer]

You can't regrab after grab release.

You can't regrab after a grab release - but can you use his neutral b to command grab? I've honestly never tried it. Does the grab release push them too far away for the command grab to work, does it just flat out miss like a regular grab or does it actually hit?

EDIT: I need to say that I'm enjoying this actually good discussion on the viability of Yoshi, with reasoned arguments on both sides. When I attempted this same topic on Gamefaqs, the results were not quite what I was hoping for. That board really hates Yoshi for some reason and consider him a "mash face into the controller" character.

 

[Skitrel]

You can regrab after a grab release, there's just a delay and it's situational. They have a frame advantage. As I said before, it's an option to use against an opponent that chooses to shield expecting your jabs.

Distance the opponent moves away on release is character dependent White_Pointer. Friction based I believe, I think Luigi moves the furthest away.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

You can't regrab after a grab release - but can you use his neutral b to command grab? I've honestly never tried it. Does the grab release push them too far away for the command grab to work, does it just flat out miss like a regular grab or does it actually hit?

Ya Neutral B has the same grab restriction.

 

[phili]

Would just like to say that while Yoshi doesn't have the greatest tournament results, this doesn't mean he isn't a high tier character. He has a low player pool because of the fact that he is so unique and different from all the other characters. This creates a very high learning curve, which causes people not to use him.

A very similar situation exists for Pikachu. Pikachu has an extremely small top level player pool due to his high learning curve. And outside of ESAM, the character has no notable tournament results. Yet nearly every top player agrees that Pikachu is top 5 or 6 in the game.

Yoshi clearly has the tools to be a tournament threat. We just need a top top player to pick him up to get those player results. ESAM has recently picked the character up, and once he learns the ins and outs of the character, maybe he can be the one to prove that Yoshi is a solid high tier character.

 

[White_Pointer]

You can regrab after a grab release, there's just a delay and it's situational. They have a frame advantage. As I said before, it's an option to use against an opponent that chooses to shield expecting your jabs.

They would need to sit in shield for a long time to be grabbed again, I don't know if that's really a viable option.

Yoshi clearly has the tools to be a tournament threat. We just need a top top player to pick him up to get those player results. ESAM has recently picked the character up, and once he learns the ins and outs of the character, maybe he can be the one to prove that Yoshi is a solid high tier character.

ESAM might have tried Yoshi against ZeRo at Smashcon but I doubt he's going to take Yoshi seriously. He'll probably concentrate on making his Pikachu better. Honestly he very nearly had ZeRo in winner's finals...so so close, unbelievably close. It's a real pity ESAM was knocked out at EVO before getting the chance to face ZeRo with his custom Pikachu.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Solid result! Nice.

However that set against DK Will really highlighted what we've been saying about Yoshi's lack of kill setups. In the first game at least he had DK Will at kill percentage and just couldn't get the KO. The second game was unfortunateky a bit one sided.

Still, congrats to Raptor, top 12 is a good showing.

I appreciate it but this is nothing new. I'm always 9th at these and I'm trying to break the top 8 already with no success. And yeah while that is true, Yoshi is still a solid character. I don't feel like writing everything out again since it's going to be the same as my last post but just give it time. Soon enough you'll start seeing better results from Yoshis as a whole. I learned a lot this weekend and it just just reaffirmed my thought that there's just a level we haven't reached with Yoshi yet. Also, I'm tired of hearing "just wait until a top player picks him up" If anyone is going to do it's gonna be a true main not a top player who knows he can just use shiek or Diddy and put in 1/4th the effort.

Edit: Btw, Shiek is Yoshi's only problematic mu. Everything else is either doable or in his favor. After Shiek comes Roy, Marth/Fox/Lucina but like I said they're doable.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Roy?
Marth and lucina I can see though.

 

[fuzyll]

Raptor was the first to mention a sword character finally and say "Marth beats us -3 probably"
I didn't believe at first but with all the buffs Marth has been getting... I can believe that now."

Btw, Shiek is Yoshi's only problematic mu. Everything else is either doable or in his favor. After Shiek comes Roy, Marth/Fox/Lucina but like I said they're doable.

Roy?
Marth and lucina I can see though.

This doesn't sound like "-3 probably", Slush...

Also, I'm tired of hearing "just wait until a top player picks him up" If anyone is going to do it's gonna be a true main not a top player who knows he can just use shiek or Diddy and put in 1/4th the effort.

For my part, at least, I've only been arguing that Yoshi needs someone (would love for it to be me, but I've got a long way to go ) to really optimize his play. I agree completely that it'll be someone like you or KDB - an actual Yoshi main. ESAM's a great player, and I love that he attempted a Yoshi in Grand Finals, but I don't think he'll be switching sometime soon. And, if he gets results, it'll be off of his solid fundamentals and not his Yoshi play.

You're almost there! Can't wait to see you place even higher in future tournaments.

 

[Sinister Slush]

This doesn't sound like "-3 probably", Slush...

He talked about Marth being a -3 to us before you even joined Smashboards.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yeah, but Raptor sucks and doesn't abuse people's holes as much as he needs to. I still hold that he was really wrong even way back then, lol.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Eww... abusing peoples holes

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yeah I don't know what I was saying. I was either exaggerating or just annoyed about a recent loss (I don't recall ever saying -3 tho since I don't use that format for mu's). but he's definitely not a -3. I'd say 60-40 at most but even then that might be too much. Like I said before, Shiek is his only troubling mu. And yes Roy is up there too.

Delta, it would be nice if you could help me out since you see something I don't. You got me on fb/Skype.

 

[Fuerzo]

Yoshi doesn't have any -3 matchups (probably no +3 matchups either other than maybe Mewtwo).

 

[ShadowKing]

I know this isn't going to be a particularly popular opinion, but I will present my evidence and reasoning and allow you to make up your own minds after that.

In Smash 4 Yoshi is largely considered at a high tier character by most players, usually sitting in at least A tier in most tier lists. While he is certainly better than he has been in previous Smash games, but this doesn't magically make him high tier.

The belief that he is high tier is based around the number crunchers who have pulled out his frame data and other values like his air speed, and his ranking is centred around his potential from these numbers, rather than his actual results.

And the crux of the matter is, 8+ months into the game's release and we still don't see any meaningful tournament results from Yoshi, and it's not from a lack of players trying to make him work.

Let's look at tournament results. Mr. Doom's equal 7th place at Combo Breaker was the first time we saw a Yoshi make the top 16 in a major tournament. Just think about that for a moment - it took 6 months for a supposedly high tier character to crack the *TOP 16* in a major tournament. Considering we've seen characters like Pac-Man, Mario, Duck Hunt Duo, R.O.B., Ness, Greninja, Olimar and even Samus, Little Mac and Mii Brawler all make top 16's before this point, that says something. Even Donkey Kong and Palutena have been getting good results in customs tournaments. And of course, other "high tier" characters - Diddy, Sheik, Sonic, Rosalina, Captain Falcon, Zero Suit Samus, Luigi - consistently and reliably place well. Since that Combo Breaker result, we still haven't seen anything from Yoshi players - no Yoshis in the top 16 at CEO, no Yoshis in even the top 32 at Evo (and there were two Wii Fit Trainers in that Evo top 32). Yoshi can't even place reasonably highly in smaller weeklies like Xanadu and Shockwave.

If Yoshi is so high tier, why aren't more pro players using him? Why aren't we seeing the tournament placings that reflect his supposedly high tier?

Certainly at low levels, it can be easy to see why Yoshi can be perceived as strong. He's deceptively quick, has strong attacks, and has little end lag on many of his moves. But it seems these strengths can be overcome at high levels and his weaknesses are exposed much more easily. He definitely has many strengths, but he also has some pretty glaring weaknesses.

His biggest weakness, as I see it, and the one that I think is ultimately holding him back from being high tier, is his lack of kill setups. If you look at his moves on paper, he has plenty of kill options - forward smash, up smash, up air, forward air (spike), down b, possibly even back air or neutral air or the back hit of down smash if used near the blast zone. But, he's got no true combos into those kill moves at kill percentages - so the reality is, he actually has a VERY hard time killing. Let me elaborate.

His grab is terrible to start with...it's slow with massive end lag if it misses, and his pivot grab is actually even worse because he plays a silly little animation when his tongue goes back in his mouth. It has shorter range than other tether grabs and is the only tether grab in the game that can not be used as an additional attack and/or recovery option. Once he has you in a grab his throws are abysmal. Forward throw and back throw don't KO at any meaningful percent (between 250-300% from the edge without rage), and down throw and up throw don't true combo into anything even at 0% (if you manage to land anything after a down or up throw, your opponent didn't DI or air dodge properly). He's got no kill throw and no kill setups off his throws at any percentage. His most damaging throw does 7%; hardly worth it for the risk of a whiffed grab. His command grab is decent but the opponent can control the direction the egg goes, can control the speed they break out, and take half damage when inside it.

In reality there's little real reason to fear shielding against Yoshi...his down air is his scariest move in this regard but even this can be entirely shielded without the shield breaking, as can his down b, and both of them are extremely punishable on shield. In fact you don't even need to shield his down b half the time, because the move has absolutely no armour or priority on it so he can be hit out of it by pretty much any well timed up smash, up air or other move that hits above them. His side b is the same story - any move with knockback on it (so pretty much anything aside from Fox's lasers) will knock him out of the move, and the move itself is pretty bad. Most of the time you do this move, it'll be by accident when you intended to use a forward directed up b instead...not good when you end up rolling off the ledge, or when you are trying to recover. That segues into the next point of his recovery.

Yoshi's double jump *needs* armour on it due to the fact he has no real recovery move, but it needs to be noted that it has heavy armour, not super armour, so he can in fact still be knocked out of it by a strong enough attack (and can actually be footstooled out of it too). If he's caught off stage without his double jump, or if he's stuck under the stage, he's gone for.

It's also a falicy that most of his moves are safe on shield...the reality is, most of them aren't. Down b, fair, bair, dair, dash attack, fsmash, upsmash and dsmash are all unsafe on shield.

Lastly it's been proven that Yoshi's shield is activated and deactivated slower than everyone else's, due to the animation he plays of turning in to or out of an egg. This means he cannot shield on reaction quite as quickly as pretty much everyone else, and also only really has his neutral air as an out of shield option. His rolls are also close to the slowest in the game with massive end lag on them, and while it's true that rolls should be used sparingly, this still needs to be taken into account. He's just not as good at dodging stuff as other characters are.

Ultimately though it's his lack of kill setups that are hurting him the most. Yoshi works best if the opponent is approaching him, but if the opponent plays smart and doesn't directly approach him, he really struggles to bring them to him and get KO's. His eggs are a great move but are not a reliable tool to force the opponent to approach. Jab 1 to up smash is possibly his best KO option but even that isn't a true combo. He can try to bait air dodges by throwing eggs to follow up with an up or forward air but smart opponents won't air dodge. Fair into the stage to up air can work but can be teched. All of his smash attacks can also miss completely if the opponent is too close to him.

TL;DR

Right now, the evidence just isn't there to support the common belief that Yoshi is a high tier character. He has real issues actually obtaining KO's as he has almost no genuine kill setups, and his lack of tournament results supports this. You can throw out as many raw numbers as you want, saying he has awesome frame data and high air speed and so on, but in my opinion, we need to stop rating characters like Yoshi on purely potential based on these numbers, and start actually looking at how the package comes together as a whole and what results he's achieving. I'm not saying he doesn't have strengths...he most certainly does have plenty of strengths that make him worth playing, However, the fact remains that after 8+ months we're still not seeing any success at high level with Yoshi and there is no evidence to support his usually top-10 spot on the tier lists.

There aren't many yoshi Mainers

 

[Doublenickels]

Hey guys, I haven't been as active as I'd like to be lately, just so busy, between work, personal life and organizing Wyoming's scene (Yes we finally kind of have a Wyoming scene! I'll still be competing in Utah though).

But anyways, I just wanted to thank you guys for this discussion, I'm sorry I don't have anything to add, but this is a great discussion, thanks for all the information you've shared here.

I'll just add that I am also struggling with Marth/Lucina. I'm working on my Dedede for this purpose, but I'd love to just be confident in the MU with Yoshi. I recently got caught in a game 3 situation where I couldn't switch to Dedede for fear of getting Ryu but couldn't use Yoshi (or Wario) for fear of Marth. So I just got caught in the Marth MU and lost. I really need to get my Yoshi vs. Marth MU figured out. I see there's been discussion about this in the thread and that's great but, I'm just curious, more concretely I'd like to know. How do you guys typically go about the matchup? Egg spam? B-reverse shenanigans?

 

[Delta-cod]

Yeah I don't know what I was saying. I was either exaggerating or just annoyed about a recent loss (I don't recall ever saying -3 tho since I don't use that format for mu's). but he's definitely not a -3. I'd say 60-40 at most but even then that might be too much. Like I said before, Shiek is his only troubling mu. And yes Roy is up there too.

Delta, it would be nice if you could help me out since you see something I don't. You got me on fb/Skype.

Link me some vids! You know that I don't have much practical experience so far, but I don't think my theory tends to be off base with reality most of the time. I'll send you a message about this to make sure you see it (you lurker!)

@ Doublenickels We do have a Lucina MU thread, perhaps it's time to revive that and discuss the MU with her (and Marth)? Maybe Raptor or someone could provide some prime critique/case study material.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-thread-vs-lucina-maybe-marth.374474/

 

[Sinister Slush]

I haven't been doing the MU discussion stuff cause it was slowing down for us since I began the project lol

Also yeah, you said 65:35 I believe, Raptor. I'm just converting that into -3.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yeah I must have been salty that's too much lol. My outlook on Yoshi has changed a lot though so maybe it's that too.

OH YEAH, Ryu too. **** Ryu. Does anyone else struggle against Ryu?

 

[ymtah]

Are we counting Ike out due to lack of usage because I don't think that's a good idea. Ike is on the rise.

And Yoshi can't do anything about it.

 

[Fuerzo]

Are we counting Ike out due to lack of usage because I don't think that's a good idea. Ike is on the rise.

And Yoshi can't do anything about it.

we can throw eggs at him

 

[Xandercosm]

My argument here is that we should stop basing his tier position off "potential", and start basing it on actual evidence. There are no tournament results to back up the claims that he's top tier. The evidence just isn't there to support them.

This is where you're so wrong. It's the other way around. Basing the tier of a character on the people playing said character is, in my opinion, the worst way you could rank a character. There are so many random variables. And, if all the people playing a character are just terrible at the game, does that mean that the character is bad, or the player. Just think about it. Anyway, extremely flawed position you've got there.

For the fun of it, here are some pros and cons I've noticed about Yoshi IN MY OWN GAMEPLAY:

Pros:
- super fast and agile
- powerful attacks
- tons of kill moves
- multiple kill setups (egg throw, jab, etc)
- ability to escape literally any combo with double jump
- super armor on second jump
- freaking down-air
- there are probably more I haven't thought of...

cons:
- bad grab/throw game
- sometimes side-special can come out on egg throws

 

[Doublenickels]

Yeah I must have been salty that's too much lol. My outlook on Yoshi has changed a lot though so maybe it's that too.

OH YEAH, Ryu too. **** Ryu. Does anyone else struggle against Ryu?

I wouldn't say I struggle, but I definitely prefer using Wario in that match-up. I don't think it's great for Yoshi but it doesn't feel like it's that bad either, then again I usually go Wario against the only two Ryu players in my scene, so I don't have a ton of MU experience using Yoshi.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Yoshi has the tools to be a high tier character, but I wouldn't be surprised if he drops down to mid tier when people stop overrating the dino's super good frame data. The game is still in its infancy so I'm sure yoshi mains alike will be able to step up and utilize his potential to reach the gold.

Random quick question and wasn't sure to post here (since we are discussing Yoshi's options) or the QA thread, but how much has been worked on when it comes to grab releasing?

Yes I'm aware it isn't 100% guaranteed to hit the jabs after a release but you nail it most of the time, as well as Yoshi's grab being slow. However just due to conditioning when you b-reverse or wavebounce neutral B you always hit the egg lay, because most people are wary of shielding for eggs or spaced fairs so they are not expecting a grab.
One thing that I've been working on that has seen some results but is somewhat challenging is at high percents people cling on to holding shield against Yoshi, tomahawking or whatever else to get the grab, to pummel until they grab release, into jab 1 usmash or jab 1 down b.
It can be hard to nail consistently because if you pummel too fast you'll just end up buffering the double jab but its been working as a great kill set up which Yoshi can be lacking, but with some practice has opened up great kills against some Anther's people. A lot of the time I'll just double jab which is fine but hopefully it'll get better.

Anyways, all I've seen is grab release into jab 1-2 but has any other set ups like this been found to be decent with a grab release?

Grab release into jab 1 -> u-smash is probably as good as it gets for Yoshi. The problem with grab releasing is that the opponent is still at advantage to shield/dodge/roll/attack after being released which means you'll only be able to successfully pull it off once or twice in a game if your opponent is smart. Other options out of release could probably be jab -> dsmash/dtilt.

--

I agree that characters with disjoints certainly give yoshi trouble in the air where even fair/nair/egg toss won't save him. Roy is up there that can definitely do work on yoshi (jab to up b combo say whaaaaat), and although I don't meet much marths/lucinas they still are problematic. We do have better maneuverability, but swords make yoshi sad.

 

[Skitrel]

Yeah I must have been salty that's too much lol. My outlook on Yoshi has changed a lot though so maybe it's that too.

OH YEAH, Ryu too. **** Ryu. Does anyone else struggle against Ryu?

Ryu's jab, nair>grab, nair>everything, all-winning fair and invincible Shoryuken are a serious problem.

Yes, I will happily agree that Ryu is a problematic matchup for Yoshi. Once he gets close he does some serious damage.

Fortunately his approaches are limited and generally heavily telegraphed, he can't change his momentum in the air like most characters can without using focus cancel, so once he jumps into the air it's pretty simple to punish his landing nair.

 

[White_Pointer]

This is where you're so wrong. It's the other way around. Basing the tier of a character on the people playing said character is, in my opinion, the worst way you could rank a character. There are so many random variables. And, if all the people playing a character are just terrible at the game, does that mean that the character is bad, or the player. Just think about it. Anyway, extremely flawed position you've got there.

You need to consider both things. I'm saying that current tier placings for Yoshi have him simply ranked in "potential" using his numbers, without taking into account how the package comes together as a whole and how he actually plays. Both things need to be considered when looking at tier placements, not just one or the other.

The top players also tend to gravitate towards the stronger characters - Sheik, Diddy, Falcon, Fox, Luigi, etc. We've seen many top players - even ZeRo, switch characters between patches when their preferred character falls out of favour. Yet not many top players, with the exception of a small number of guys like Raptor, are showing any interest at all in picking up Yoshi. There's got to be a reason for that.

For the fun of it, here are some pros and cons I've noticed about Yoshi IN MY OWN GAMEPLAY:

Pros:
- super fast and agile
- powerful attacks
- tons of kill moves
- multiple kill setups (egg throw, jab, etc)
- ability to escape literally any combo with double jump
- super armor on second jump
- freaking down-air
- there are probably more I haven't thought of...

cons:
- bad grab/throw game
- sometimes side-special can come out on egg throws

He does have lots of kill moves, but the problem is, he doesn't actually have any real genuine kill setups, which is one of the major issues being discussed in this thread. Jab 1 to upsmash can work but even that's not a true combo. Without kill setups, his kill moves are heavily telegraphed and predictable and it's really hard to land KO's against smart opponents.

His double jump has heavy armour by the way, not super armour. He can be hit out of it with a strong enough attack and can actually be interrupted by a footstool too.

Down air is a good damage dealing move but it's a bit over rated...you're almost never going to connect with the whole thing against good players, and as long as they have a full or almost full shield they can actually shield the entire thing and punish. It's even punishable if it isn't shielded or if the shield is released halfway through at low percents.

In the current metagame, having a bad grab and even worse throws is actually a big deal, and this is another popular topic of discussion in this thread. Samus is another character with a bad grab and awful throws, and look where she's currently placed on most tier lists. And he's got more cons than you've listed there too, including having no true recovery move, all of his smash attacks having "dead zones" where they just completely whiff (mostly if the opponent is right on top of him), a slow roll with a huge amount of end lag on it, and no genuine kill setups. And if side b comes out instead of an egg throw when trying to recover, you're dead.

 

[Skitrel]

There's got to be a reason for that.

There is - There are simply better options to choose from for anyone that is solely in the game to win combined with the fact there are also more appealing/popular characters.

Yoshi simply doesn't compete on curb-appeal with the likes of blockbuster characters like Pikachu and he doesn't compete with the likes of Sheik or Rosa on competitive viability.

He is a great character, but he is at the bottom end of the high tier.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'll also add that Yoshi is not a conventional character. Take an amazing Sheik main, for example, then tell him to play Diddy Kong. I'll bet that his Diddy is also really good. Maybe not quite as good because he's not as familiar with the character's intricacies as he is with Sheik's, but most of the core gameplay will carry over. The same idea would apply to most every character.

But Yoshi is weird. He doesn't have a real Up B, he's got some wonky movement, a strange DJ that doesn't function the same way as everyone else's for stalling/baiting, etc. The fundamentals still apply, but they need to be used differently, and that's why Yoshi isn't as popular (combined with other reasons, like the ones Skitrel mentioned).

You said "The top players also tend to gravitate towards the stronger characters - Sheik, Diddy, Falcon, Fox, Luigi, etc". I noticed that Rosalina wasn't on that list. Rosalina, despite being quite a powerful character, isn't very popular, for many of the same reasons Yoshi isn't (she's the only puppeteer, it's weird to handle, lots of fundamentals are changed due to handling Luma, etc). I mean, who out there is repping Rosy well? One person?

I don't think Yoshi's amaaaaaaazing, but there are more reasons for him not being a popular pick than his strength as a fighter. I think that if popularity always correlated with strength, Yoshi would be a more common pick, and we'd have more than one person per region repping him. But character feel matters a lot. That's also part of the reason not everyone flocked to Ice Climbers in Brawl, for instance. They're just not quite a basic character that you can just do "Good Player Stuff" with and win quite as easily.

 

[Xandercosm]

You need to consider both things. I'm saying that current tier placings for Yoshi have him simply ranked in "potential" using his numbers, without taking into account how the package comes together as a whole and how he actually plays. Both things need to be considered when looking at tier placements, not just one or the other.

The top players also tend to gravitate towards the stronger characters - Sheik, Diddy, Falcon, Fox, Luigi, etc. We've seen many top players - even ZeRo, switch characters between patches when their preferred character falls out of favour. Yet not many top players, with the exception of a small number of guys like Raptor, are showing any interest at all in picking up Yoshi. There's got to be a reason for that.



He does have lots of kill moves, but the problem is, he doesn't actually have any real genuine kill setups, which is one of the major issues being discussed in this thread. Jab 1 to upsmash can work but even that's not a true combo. Without kill setups, his kill moves are heavily telegraphed and predictable and it's really hard to land KO's against smart opponents.

His double jump has heavy armour by the way, not super armour. He can be hit out of it with a strong enough attack and can actually be interrupted by a footstool too.

Down air is a good damage dealing move but it's a bit over rated...you're almost never going to connect with the whole thing against good players, and as long as they have a full or almost full shield they can actually shield the entire thing and punish. It's even punishable if it isn't shielded or if the shield is released halfway through at low percents.

In the current metagame, having a bad grab and even worse throws is actually a big deal, and this is another popular topic of discussion in this thread. Samus is another character with a bad grab and awful throws, and look where she's currently placed on most tier lists. And he's got more cons than you've listed there too, including having no true recovery move, all of his smash attacks having "dead zones" where they just completely whiff (mostly if the opponent is right on top of him), a slow roll with a huge amount of end lag on it, and no genuine kill setups. And if side b comes out instead of an egg throw when trying to recover, you're dead.

I agree with some of what you're saying, but if you only look at the bad sides of the character, you miss that characters amazing virtues. Seamus is a completely different story. She really IS bad. She has few combos, bad kill setups, few kill moves, lots of whiff moves. Yoshi has downsides, but every character has downsides. It really comes down to wether they outweigh the upsides. And I think they don't when it comes to Yoshi. Not to mention, there are plenty of variables that would make people not want to play Yoshi. Some people don't like to play as cute-looking characters in favor of tough-looking ones, maybe they never played one of the classic Yoshi games so they have made a subconscious decision not to play him. You just have to take into account all the weird little decisions people make subconsciously or otherwise.

 

[zang]

this arguement I keep seeing everywhere, statistics wise, it's true.
Is it due to lack of Yoshi mains developing the meta or are the higher tiers just dominating Yoshi?
I want our green dino to persevere!

Edit: can this be deleted, I found a post to what I was looking for

Delta Edit: Thread merged here, original topic name "Yoshi does not win tournaments"

 

[YoHeKing]

http://smashboards.com/threads/unpo...s-not-high-tier-evidence-inside.412944/unread

Check out this including the replies. The OP wasn't 100% correct

 

[zang]

http://smashboards.com/threads/unpo...s-not-high-tier-evidence-inside.412944/unread

Check out this including the replies. The OP wasn't 100% correct

Yup just discovered that thread.