Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[Hamman88]

dacus isn't even as hard as like, waveshining or doing shine OoS or multishine. dacus is tight timing but not really fast fingers on the level of most spacey tech. not to mention that gatling expands the window massively if you hit with dash attack anyway

And this is why I play G&W and not a spacey

 

[jtm94]

Gattling is much easier to do than DACUS. Gattling grab aka Boost Grab is also amazing for opponents who like to shield a lot. I do have a harder time pulling off DACUS than I do waveshines honestly.

But to say use DACUS to read the tech off D Throw is definitely an incredible guess. You can't react to it you have to move before they start moving, and they also have the option of not moving at all.

I used to use downthrow to Judgment hammer as a Bread and Butter thing from time to time, but I have actually found that most characters when jab reset can act early enough to avoid the hammer, and some can avoid fsmash. Dtilt may be the best option, and can KO floaties super early, but Downthrow is still pretty beat. His throws are only good against fastfallers.

 

[shapular]

At the very least, I'm pretty sure dthrow to dsmash is guaranteed against Falcon whether he techrolls or not.

 

[dettadeus]

But to say use DACUS to read the tech off D Throw is definitely an incredible guess. You can't react to it you have to move before they start moving, and they also have the option of not moving at all.

nobody will ever tech in place the first couple times against a g&w player because he isn't particularly fast and his hard hitting moves are either slow or short-ranged
if you grab someone near the edge they will more than likely techroll in under the assumption that you can't catch them, and you can cover that with a DACUS.
you can cover a miss tech on reaction with jab reset or even gatling combo

I used to use downthrow to Judgment hammer as a Bread and Butter thing from time to time, but I have actually found that most characters when jab reset can act early enough to avoid the hammer, and some can avoid fsmash. Dtilt may be the best option, and can KO floaties super early, but Downthrow is still pretty beat. His throws are only good against fastfallers.

most characters can sdi the jab reset and not be forced into getup, in my experience

 

[jtm94]

I suppose. Gattling combo only seems to work on mid weights at specific percents. I tried recently against Fox and I always went further than him even at moderately high %s. Hmm, actually I think I have gotten it to work on certain floaties at earlier %s as well.

And yeah I do see the merit in a few situations, especially on platforms because against anyone you get guaranteed Dsmash. I still just don't like his throws regardless.

And as for the SDI thing I never knew... I used to get my friends with that stuff all the time and if any of them do miss the tech and I go for jab reset they get away before my attack hits them consistently, even when I get what feels like the strictest timing.

Onto other things I've been struggling with GnW against a host of characters. Like Donkey Kong, Peach, and even Ganon.

P.S. Someone talked about bucket being good versus Mario and it is if he fireballs from a distance, but bucket is incredibly punishable by him as I have learned. Against Falco it is meh... but I guess it is a large disjointed hitbox.

 

[shapular]

Bucket is pretty safe against Mario even if he approaches with them. Just release it in his face right when you catch the fireball. Watch Nintendude's match against The Doug from CW6 for an example. I don't know if Mario players have come up with new technology since then, but it should still work against most Marios.

I can't really give you a lot of advice about the Peach matchup, but it does help to be able to catch her turnips, especially if you can glide toss. But sometimes she'll bait you into catching her turnips while recovering, which might still be better than getting hit but leaves you with fewer options. Instant tossing might help with that, but it's not something I've practiced. She is very light and floaty, so she dies off the top early to dtilt, usmash, dsmash, or even fsmash. Gatling probably works on her and might kill starting around 50% (just a guess). On the other hand, she can't kill you off the top very easily unless she catches you with an uair or lands an usmash somehow. Watch out for the floating dair edgeguards. I think you can avoid them by sweetspotting, but if you miss you're going to eat a nair and probably die. You can try to mix up your recovery timing to throw her off, but she can do it on reaction so it's better to recover high if possible.

Ganon's kind of a weird matchup. Worse Ganons are super easy, but better Ganons are really tough. Unfortunately the best Ganon in TN lives two and a half hours away so I don't get to play him as often as I'd like.

 

[Jechtire]

Is the Skype group still a thing? Cus if it is I'd like to join it

My thingy is admiralawesome911

 

[shapular]

Does anybody have any idea why our dtilt range was nerfed so much?

 

[jtm94]

When did that happen? The only thing I notice is that the animation for dtilt doesn't match the hitboxes. The animation starts before it comes out and it doesn't quite go as far. Still like twice the distance of Melee though. In all honesty dtilt may be a bit too good, so if they did mess with range i'm not concerned.

 

[Metmetm3t]

I'm pretty confident that the hit boxes on down tilt exactly match melee.

 

[shapular]

I think they're a little bigger than Melee (Melee dtilt suuuuucks) but I'm quite sure it's shorter than Brawl. I went in to Dolphin to verify:
http://i.imgur.com/XDEodqv.png This is where it hits from in Brawl.
http://i.imgur.com/Ao7eTrq.png This missed in PM.
http://i.imgur.com/t8wB1UY.png This was a hit in PM.
It'd be nice if the hitbox was at least as long as the animation. (On an unrelated note, Brawl FD >>>> Melee FD.)

 

[jtm94]

Melee dtilt looked much smaller than the one in PM, but idk if the hitboxes were bigger than the animation or not. That is weird they wouldn't keep a good thing GnW had in Brawl because someone had to of changed Dtilt hitbox purposely.

Also I don't like Brawl FD.

 

[GeZ]

So I've been rekindling my love of Gdubs and I've found a pretty reliable trick for making hard reads on a throw.

You Dthrow and if you think they'll roll forward you DACUS, if you think they'll roll back you WD back Usmash, and if you think they'll tech in place you do one of the infinite things that entails. I just had good success today against my friend who mains Ganon making fat reads and punishing his life for all his easy to read teching. I think that GnW is really really good at hard reading.

Also, as a fun thing that you guys'll probly be jazzed to know, GnW can (Dthrow > read tech > Usmash > regrab) on all spacies. It's the ****.

Also also, is his DACUS the only one that has the hit of his Dash Attack at the beginning of the slide? It's a kindof neat thing.

 

[shapular]

I just got back from this tournament: http://challonge.com/SCPMS I got an easy win first set (although it was harder than it needed to be since I was still in Brawl mode), went 1-1 in a couple of super close sets (including barely inching past a guy who counterpicked Marth ;.; ), got another pretty easy win, then got destroyed by Soft. I ended up placing 13th out of 58, which I'm content with. I could've maybe got 9th, but Diddy is hard.

Btw m3t, AML says I'm better than you at Brawl (that's the real reason I made this post :V).

 

[GeZ]

Do any of you guys use footstool? It's pretty sweet to drop once or twice in a match to catch the opponent off guard and there's one setup I'm playing around with that's difficult but really, really swaggin.

Edit: okay the setup relies on forcing your opponent to miss a tech and because of that it's got tight weird timing but it's pretty neat, so here: Dair (2 hit) > delayed footstool > Dair (1 hit) > footstool > tech chase

What delayed footstool means is footstooling your opponent as late as possible. It's a little tight, but it's sweet, works on most characters in the midrange of weight at early percents, and is a cool alternative to just grabbing after the Dair popup.

 

[jtm94]

For reads I either go the jumping hammer route or nair route. Landed nair at low % usually gets fair follow-ups for me. I need to get better at DACUS.

I have never footstooled as GnW, but I guess I can start trying soon.
Been playing GnW until I see the aftermath of my other chars post update.

 

[Nephiros]

I've recently begun remapping my X button to footstool, that was quite a big thing to get used to for me as I previously used both Y/X for different things since melee days. It might not work on every character, but you can footstool someone shielding and combo into up-b before they can recover. It seems like a decent mix-up if you're falling on a blocking opponents or they're blocking on a platform above, similar to Wario's bite. Obviously not so good at low% or up to mid% against fast-fallers since you can't follow-up with other stuff too reliably.

 

[Kuya the Red]

I've recently begun remapping my X button to footstool, that was quite a big thing to get used to for me as I previously used both Y/X for different things since melee days. It might not work on every character, but you can footstool someone shielding and combo into up-b before they can recover. It seems like a decent mix-up if you're falling on a blocking opponents or they're blocking on a platform above, similar to Wario's bite. Obviously not so good at low% or up to mid% against fast-fallers since you can't follow-up with other stuff too reliably.

always put footstool as X and ive never regretted it.

 

[GeZ]

I've recently begun remapping my X button to footstool, that was quite a big thing to get used to for me as I previously used both Y/X for different things since melee days. It might not work on every character, but you can footstool someone shielding and combo into up-b before they can recover. It seems like a decent mix-up if you're falling on a blocking opponents or they're blocking on a platform above, similar to Wario's bite. Obviously not so good at low% or up to mid% against fast-fallers since you can't follow-up with other stuff too reliably.

Footstooling is also pretty good for tinking away at shields so that you can possibly shield stab with a Dair.

In general, spikes and footstools work well together, as they can mix up each others timing and be used in tandem.

 

[Kuya the Red]

Footstooling is also pretty good for tinking away at shields so that you can possibly shield stab with a Dair.

In general, spikes and footstools work well together, as they can mix up each others timing and be used in tandem.

But the Main reason for remappong X as footstool is for ease of use taunt cancelling clearly.

 

[jtm94]

But the Main reason for remappong X as footstool is for ease of use taunt cancelling clearly.

This times a thousand.
GAH, I just need to remember to try and footstool as GnW, I never even think about it.

 

[Crezyte]

I've recently begun remapping my X button to footstool, that was quite a big thing to get used to for me as I previously used both Y/X for different things since melee days. It might not work on every character, but you can footstool someone shielding and combo into up-b before they can recover. It seems like a decent mix-up if you're falling on a blocking opponents or they're blocking on a platform above, similar to Wario's bite. Obviously not so good at low% or up to mid% against fast-fallers since you can't follow-up with other stuff too reliably.

At low percents you can footstool -> air dodge down. You have frame advantage if done right, so usually a grab is what to go for, but I would man it out and charge up smash then DACUS after hitting their shield if I felt swaggy. I never get the option to do this though, cuz I don't footstool shields.

 

[Metmetm3t]

You can footstool ledgehogging opponents. That's the best use for footstool.

 

[GeZ]

You can footstool ledgehogging opponents. That's the best use for footstool.

While that is good to keep in mind, I haven't run into many players who don't edgehog > roll up from ledge, which kind of invalidates that.

 

[GeZ]

One tech that most people don't expect is that you can air dodge to the ground right after footstool, which gives you options like footstool > land behind opponent > grab/ shield pressure/ whatever you want.

I've kind of decided to play GnW as my main because I was playing with some really solid players yesterday and getting messed up on my main because I'm just better with offensive characters. So I'll probably be main boating him from now on and spending a lot of time in the lab. If I find anything exceptionally neat, I'll post it up.

 

[Crezyte]

Has anyone mentioned in the thread yet about how an u-smash on shield will send you at a good spacing for a DACUS? Its up-smashing twice! Shieldcrushing guys... its cool.

 

[Yung Mei]

Has anyone mentioned in the thread yet about how an u-smash on shield will send you at a good spacing for a DACUS? Its up-smashing twice! Shieldcrushing guys... its cool.

i wanna see dakpo do this

id do it myself but 2 hard, and gatling is better

 

[GeZ]

i wanna see dakpo do this

id do it myself but 2 hard, and gatling is better

I just tried it with my buddy who just got here. It's a neat little thing.

 

[Yung Mei]

vids when .

 

[GeZ]

vids when .

Accusatory Meiling. Just try it in training. Not so hard. It's just timing.

 

[Yung Mei]

i didnt mean it like that son, i just want to see it cuz it sounds like its cool

 

[GeZ]

i didnt mean it like that son, i just want to see it cuz it sounds like its cool

oh. One, sec.

 

[GeZ]

Here you go. Sorry for quality but I don't have a recording rig or anything. Also it's definitely possible to make it tighter than I did it here. This was just a quickie anyway. Good tech from @ Crezyte though.

 

[Yung Mei]

**** is too realq

 

[Dakpo]

I died, I will store this in the back of my mind. Also, Dacus is 10X more effective and usable than gatling @ Yung Mei

 

[Yung Mei]

I died, I will store this in the back of my mind. Also, Dacus is 10X more effective and usable than gatling @ Yung Mei

this is the one thing i will always disagree about with you lmao

 

[Dakpo]

this is the one thing i will always disagree about with you lmao

Thats fine, showing me how awesome and useful gatling is should be really fun to watch. I want it to be a thing, but so far grab is just a much better, safer, and guaranteed option

 

[Yung Mei]

Thats fine, showing me how awesome and useful gatling is should be really fun to watch. I want it to be a thing, but so far grab is just a much better, safer, and guaranteed option

id definitely show you footage in tourney if i could, but i haven't been able to go to a tournament since february cuz work johns. Im gonna be attending GC next month though, but im hella out of practice, but with luck, i can place decently

 

[GeZ]

So I played some Melee yesterday and went GnW just because he's fun (though really bad), but playing that gave me an interesting perspective on GnW's weaknesses and strengths. Working on using intense movement so I didn't have to rely on his terribad shield mad me think about using defensive options much more sparingly in Project M. I'm going to try playing that way for a bit in P:M anyway. Seems like it could be good stylistically.

 

[GeZ]

Also, in regards to @ Dakpo and @ Yung Mei argument, it's kinda unfair for Mei, because if the DACUS is timed/ spaced well it has the dash attack hitbox at the beginning of it and can function almost exactly like Gatling, minus maybe 2 instances. Gatling is an easier option but DACUS just has it all :T