Universal flaw in SSBM

[Gate Everest]

Who knows!

I have no clue if this has been said yet, but oh well. Just a few tidbits.

Generally, tier arguments have two sides:
1. Tiers don't exist, this game is balanced it's just whoever is the better player wins quit tier-whoring.

2. Tiers exist and some characters are better than others, but shut up it's not that unbalanced quit whining.

To make a long argument (somewhat) short, it's not necessarily who's the better player in this game. A skilled player using a bad character would lose against a bit less of a skilled character using that character's counter/just a way better character. Tiers exist in the game.

Also, that's a bad thing. It's gonna be impossible for a game to be perfectly balanced, of course, but SSBM (while much more balanced than a lot of crappy fighters) has quite a ways to go before catching up with some other games in terms of balance (the GG series, for example). I'd say it's very obvious that some characters are much better than others; Sheik obviously has ridiculous chain throws, long range, good priority, speed, and applicable power. She's not the easiest thing to combo against. Bowser is obviously sluggish, rather weak (considering his size and how the very fast characters can sometimes outsmash or meet him), and a big combo-able target. The discrepancies between speed, strength, range, etc., are rather obvious. Even noobs can tell a big difference.

Yeah yeah, any character can be amazing in the hands of a pro for that character, but they still can't be very competitive. So for the future I would hope that Nintendo keeps this game's huge competition scene in mind and does a bit more to balance things out (which does not mean just nerfing every super-good character like they did between 64 and Melee). Honestly, for the next game, I'm most excited about seeing the tier list and how much of a gap there is between top and bottom, moreso than seeing who the characters are/the control system.

 

[Blind]

How about we define power before we keep going? Are we going to talk knockback or damage? A mixture of both?

 

[NinjaFoxX]

probobly a mixture of both.

 

[Brookman]

this morning I was playing in a pichu vs. roy match and I killed my friends roy at 37 percent....

that means he was around 26 when I hit him...

it's not necessarily who's the better player in this game. A skilled player using a bad character would lose against a bit less of a skilled character using that character's counter/just a way better character

that's not entirely true... there are reasons that characters counter certain characters.

let's take falco vs. ganon!

falco with his shl has a huge advantage because it allows him a great amount of control over the very large target we affectionately call "ganondorf" another reason is the falco can destroy ganon's recovery, he is much faster, and can combo him pretty well.

but a player who doesn't take advantage (a player who may not know the advantages) can get destroyed by ganon's powerful moves.

characters don't just counter other characters cause they look better, you have to be able to use the moves and tactics that give the character the advantage

 

[Gate Everest]

As for the power thing, personally, I find damage to be almost irrelevant compared to knockback the way single matches are played. Other than some up-kills and the occasional side-kills, mostly kills occur through proper edgeguarding - meaning getting them off the stage is generally much more useful/important than racking up enough damage to get a clean kill. Not that damage is completely useless, but knockback and comboability of moves seem to be much more important.

But I would define power as a 'statistic' as a mixture of damage and knockback, but as a more general defintion, just how quickly you can make the kill -which is more importan than how quickly you can rack up damage. Quickness on the kill includes how quickly you can get enough damage to get them off the stage and how equipped you are to keep them off. That definition becomes almost irrelevant to the Bowser vs. Sheik thing as I was talking about it, though. That in mind, really, I see Bowser not having enough damage or knockback to come close to making up for his sluggishness. That and other, faster characters are often more powerful (in knockback or damage); that's flat-out supremacy right there. He's in low tier for a reason, after all.

And then to the comment on taking advantage of abilities leading to counters and tiers, yes, I know that tiers and counters are not based on 'coolness'. I didn't think it would be necessary to get into what a counter/better character is and how they are what they are, but thank you for expounding on it, I s'pose.

 

[Blind]

Brookman, what attack did you use? That sounds like a mixture of poor DI and being right at the edge of whatever stage you happened to play on. That situation is totally believable on Yoshi's Island at the edge with the pipes if the Roy DI'ed an f-smash downward. What circumstances? This intrigues me.

Well, if we define power as knockback and damage, or, more specifically, how quickly one can make the KO (i.e., at what percent), then it's kind of apparent that even the "power house characters" like Bowser, DK and Ganon are not even that powerful. Bowser's f-smash, DK's neutral b and Ganon's u-tilt, neutral b, and to a lesser extent but a far more applicable one, his f-air... those are the moves that will give you the quick KO's... but those are far less useful than a good edgeguarding game for low percent KO's, and an edgeguarding game is based on the priority, mobility, and range of a character and that character's moves. Jiggs has the mobility and range to use her b-air off the stage over and over again for KO's at as low as 50 percent, just by hitting the opponent off then juggling them to the edge of the world with the WoP. Power is only as useful as long as it can be wielded... what makes something wieldable? Range, priority, and speed, basically. Range and speed, I guess, tie as important attributes, because even though Samus can attack across all of FD, she doesn't do so with particular alacrity. Falco has a fast ranged attack which is part of what makes him so deadly, and Marth's sword swings cover a lot of distance and also come out fast. In fact, at a certain point lacking knockback and damage can be even more useful for comboing (f-air chains, or Fox's drill shines anybody?)

Well, my cab is gonna be here in a moment so I bid y'all adieu. I probably won't be chatting it up on here until Monday. Don't let the site fall apart without me.

 

[Gate Everest]

True. In fact, that's mostly what I was going to say if dragged back in here to post.

The most important thing about a character is that character's applicability. You could buff Bowser all you want in terms of pure power (unless we get to the neutral-a-one-hit-ko point) and he'd still be low without the abilities to apply that power. Which is decided by range, priority, speed, combo-ability, making openings, etc. I wasn't trying to say that Bowser only is so low because he isn't as powerful as a big slow target should be, just that that was one of the aspects (in the original post I went over range, speed, etc., as well) that was less than super.

So in terms of 'fixing the flaw', it's not simply a matter of balancing a character's speed and damage. Applicability is the key.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

your right, becuz ex. fox can have no power and still win based on speed.

 

[Brookman]

Brookman, what attack did you use? That sounds like a mixture of poor DI and being right at the edge of whatever stage you happened to play on. That situation is totally believable on Yoshi's Island at the edge with the pipes if the Roy DI'ed an f-smash downward. What circumstances? This intrigues me.

the odd thing is that he went right out of the screen, it didn't hit with all the hits, and I thought he was out of range. but he didn't DI down he went at a normal angle IE: no di it was at the edge of kirby64

 

[sILeNt dEficATioN]

This is something I've always wondered if it was just over my head. Why not see what the tourament-level players think?

I've played this game for quite some time now, but I'm not to the insane point where I can glide on the surface via wavedashing or do short-hop attacks on command, etc. I am just quite good enough, however, to wonder if the game is generally not balanced.

It seems to me that some characters are just flat out worse or better than other characters, even maxed out. Some characters even seem broken. I think it has to do with the lacking balance between speed and strength. Normally, if both players are equally skilled, a duel between a small fast guy and a slow but strong dude, it would be a pretty even match. All characters should be equally deadly, but just have a different power to speed ratio. I feel this is not the case in SSBM. Bowser, which apparently sacrifices all speed for pure power, is universally seen as a broken character because for some reason it's a lie that he is strong. Marth, Fox, and Sheik are blindingly fast, and yet their blows are not any less powerful than most of Bowser's. Not only that, but it seems they forgot to implement the simple concept of resistence. The stronger a character is, the tougher he should be, meaning the impacts he receives are slightly weaker, in force and/or percentage. It doesn't feel like this is even the case either, meaning the bigger your character is, just means he's that much bigger of a target. Why is it that some characters are strong AND fast (Marth, Fox, Sheik), while others are just lacking in qualities alltogeather without something making it up?

For example, doesn't it seem only fair that the world's best Mewtwo user in the world have a good chance at beating the world's best Fox in the world? Unfortunately, I think that'd be a slaughter. Fox has blistering speed as well as superquick attacks that pack amazing power. Mewtwo on the other hand, is generally slow, his attacks are fairly sluggish and only adequately powerful, and his DownB and OverB specials are pretty much broken in serious combat. It's like you can decide a match before it starts unless it's between two of five or six of the "good" characters. So I feel like this game revolves too much around what character you have rather than how good you are.

The best evidence of what I'm trying to express here lies within the very existence of the character TIERS. Because of the fact that the characters differed so greatly in their levels of natural advantage and uncontrolled skill, fans actually determined exactly how good they were and seperated them into five levels of playability. Wonderful, now we can clearly tell who sucks and who doesn't. The tier of the character usually has priority over the skil of the player. I've seen hundreds of gorgious yet sad matches of Game&Watches vs Marths, Nesses vs. Falcos, and Mewtwos vs. Shieks, where the lesser character would be controlled by a player leagues better than the other, yet ultimately be defeated simply because it did not balance out the crappiness of their character and the overability of the other. The tiers are very blatent. Here is how I see what the tiers do to my view of the game now. There are always exceptions, however.


A- Overpowered: Used by super-serious players who usually care nothing for the character's identity, look, style, or flare. Their primary concern is to just win, win, win.

B- Good: Used by serious players whom usually have a taste for who the character IS,, while the character's higher advantage level is just kind of an added bonus.

C- Okay: Used either by casual players, or elites that've maxed out their skills for the sake of regularly using a character they personally find awesome, despite the comparison.

D- Bad: Used either by extreme noobs, or the best of pros as a means to humiliate much lesser opponents. Makes a joke out of the character and ultimately gives SSBM a bad name...

F- Broken: So underdeveloped that the character cannot function properly in most serious settings. Can even be glitchy in design to their own disadvantage. Generally neglected.


Looking over this again, I have to admit that their is some great potential excitement that can come from a high-skilled player using a low-tier character and actually being good, but it's a concept rarely seen anyway. Figuratively, these "tiers" are a shrine to SSBM being a digital version of Paper-Rock-Scissors. Okay vs broken, overpowered vs. okay, bad vs. good, this is not the way competitive video gaming should be. I think that EVERY character should be kind of the "C tier"; every character is okay, but their best potential can be unlocked or surpassed depending on the skill of the player. That's my ideal game. Maybe my priotrities in judging video games is warped, though.

Express your thoughts on this, especially if you're one of the wavedashing superelites tourny sharks I've seen videos of. If you have an amazing story of like a Pichu beating a Dr. Mario, do tell.

I would tend to agree with most of the stuff the has been said. bowser mewtwo and pichu are embarrasing they lack the basic traits to allow them to hold there own in a competition. even though they inherently suck i can not help myself from beiliving that in the proper hands with some serious wavedasing and shfling and so forth that they may have a chance of being good. unfortunately that is out of reach of most players.

 

[Brookman]

whast I don't get is why the guy thinks wavedashing makes you super 1337 and also that using crazy wavedashing and blah blah blah would allow you to make up for the said characters faults...bowser's wavedash sucks....

playing well is all about great mind games and being able to adapt to challenges that random players present you at tournies. Experience is what makes the top players.

 

[krimzonwaffle]

that is out of reach of most players.

yup, yer right, most players. but that means there are some that can use suck *** characters well in competition. that means that some can still hold a chance. that means that some are still skilled and competetive. i'll tell ya what, id have alot more respect for a pichu, bowser, or mewtwo that got close to beating me, than a sheik or peach that did beat me.

 

[krimzonwaffle]

A- Overpowered: Used by super-serious players who usually care nothing for the character's identity, look, style, or flare. Their primary concern is to just win, win, win.

B- Good: Used by serious players whom usually have a taste for who the character IS,, while the character's higher advantage level is just kind of an added bonus.

C- Okay: Used either by casual players, or elites that've maxed out their skills for the sake of regularly using a character they personally find awesome, despite the comparison.

D- Bad: Used either by extreme noobs, or the best of pros as a means to humiliate much lesser opponents. Makes a joke out of the character and ultimately gives SSBM a bad name...

F- Broken: So underdeveloped that the character cannot function properly in most serious settings. Can even be glitchy in design to their own disadvantage. Generally neglected.

i see it the other way around, its the cheap, noobs that use the "A"s, and the truly good and skilled players that use the "D"s and "F"s. say ur like a "pro" with sheik or peach.......what have u accomplished? uve basically accomplished what just about everyone has acheived and what any one can acheive with little effort. but say u are exeptionally good with say........mewtwo, what have u accomplished? something admirable that not many have done. those are the kind of players that i look up to and learn from, not the ones who abuse the high tiers and call themselves pros. in something not even hard to do. id rather loose a good match using a low tier character, then trample them with a high tier.

 

[Gate Everest]

That's the basic 'scrub' philosophy. If we're speaking in terms of competition, you should use the character that will give you your best chance at winning. And if you're really good, and really competitive, you're not going to hinder yourself with trying to show off with a subpar character.

In terms of honor though, sure. I would respect a lower tier player who came close to stomping me but I pulled out by the end, over a higher tier character who gave me a close match but beat me in the end. But the difference is that in the first situation, they lose and I carry on, and in the second one, I'm going home. Not cool if you play Smash competitively. And that's what 'pros' do; it's why they're pros.
Also, generally speaking, the 'nooby' pros who use high tiers can still beat the people who use lower tier characters when they sink down to their level. Your thinking's a bit flawed on that.... oh, and, high tier characters are not easy to use competitively. It takes a deadly amount of skill to be really competitive with anyone.

 

[krimzonwaffle]

in competition i can see yer point, but i hold alot of dignity and pride.... i dont stoop to the easy way out

 

[AngeloBangelo]

Tiers don't really have as much say in winning a match as you may think. Some characters are more powerful than others obviously, but what it really comes down to is how well you know your character. An experienced Ganondorf can crush an unexperienced Sheik with ease. However, I do think that an experienced Sheik can be very difficult to deal with. The only real example I've seen with tier whoring is Captain Jack's Sheik. Simply because it's so amazing. It's not that he's a bad player... Not at all. But I think Sheik has more strengths and less weaknesses than most characters and Captain Jack just makes great use of his character.

In a nutshell: Tiers aren't that big of a deal. It comes down to how well you play, not what character you're using. I've seen Darkrain take out plenty of worthy Foxs (One of CF's hardest matchups in my opinion) simply because he has a great anti-Fox playstyle. Or Chu's IC? IC's are supposed to be middle tier, but he makes them seem like top tier. If you're blaming your losses on the tier list or how imbalanced a character is, you're probably a scrub.

No Johns, kthxbye.

 

[Brookman]

in competition i can see yer point, but i hold alot of dignity and pride.... i dont stoop to the easy way out

I don't know if you've ever noticed but playing characters like peach, fox, falco, falcon, and samus (and maybe even marth and sheik too), is no easy task, Alot harder than playing game and watch who has hardly any special tchniques, same with bowser and pichu. This is what makes it harder to win with them, because they have nothing but the bear minumum (moveset, wavedash, L-cancel) without any special traits like float canceled movfes into downsmash or drillshining etc it's not wonder they are at the bottom of the food chain.

so your pride/dignity in the low tier characters is really misplaced, until you place in a major tourny with them. Think about it. If you can do that then woot for you. being able to drill shine some characters around is more of an accomplishment than being able to shffle with pichu.

the truly easy characters to play with are harder to win with.

I'm glad bowser moved up out of bottom though.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING

 

[Sjsathanas]

I play Fox and Falco, both at tourney level, and all of my little younger cousins play Fox, I try to teach them the ancient arts of the waveshine, but well, the best one is only 11.

 

[darkshadows]

Dude, I didn't say tiers were just for measuring a character's glitchyness. I meant they are for measuring a character's overall ability and level of general advantage that isn't easily cancelled out depending on the skill of the user or the skill of the foe. It's very blatent. Here is how I see what the tiers do to my view of the game now. There are always exceptions, however.


A- Overpowered: Used by super-serious players who usually care nothing for the character's identity, look, style, or flare. Their primary concern is to just win, win, win.

B- Good: Used by serious players whom usually have a taste for who the character IS,, while the character's higher advantage level is just kind of an added bonus.

C- Okay: Used either by casual players, or elites that've maxed out their skills for the sake of regularly using a character they personally find awesome, despite the comparison.

D- Bad: Used either by extreme noobs, or the best of pros as a means to humiliate much lesser opponents. Makes a joke out of the character and ultimately gives SSBM a bad name...

F- Broken: So underdeveloped that the character cannot function properly in most serious settings. Can even be glitchy in design to their own disadvantage. Generally neglected.


Looking over this again, I have to admit that their is some great potential excitement that can come from a high-skilled player using a low-tier character and actually being good, but it's a concept rarely seen anyway. Figuratively, these "tiers" are a shrine to SSBM being a digital version of Paper-Rock-Scissors. Okay vs broken, overpowered vs. okay, bad vs. good, this is not the way competitive video gaming should be. I think that EVERY character should be kind of the "C tier"; every character is okay, but their best potential can be unlocked or surpassed depending on the skill of the player. That's my ideal game. Maybe my priotrities in judging video games is warped, though.

There really is no way to get every char into the C tier. EVEN if you do, then we smashers will just make a C tier subtiers, and we get into every little detail, exploit them, and suddenly a few chars own most of the others, and some chars will be so bad no one will use them. Maybe you'll narrow the gap between Fox and Pichu, but there will still be a gap.

not bad of an idea anyway...

 

[vidjogamer]

First of all the term "broken" means overly powerful, not lacking.

 

[Brookman]

owned- close thread

 

[Uncle Meat]

Also, I played Fox when I was a newb. You don't have to be an amazing player to be able to play Top Tier chars, you just wont play them well. For the most part, newbs don't use people like Mewtwo, saying that they suck.

In short, PurpleEqualsDoom, you are wrong.

 

[Nucks]

It's impossible to balance all characters.
Since this is a console game, it makes it even harder to nerf or correct some characters as it could be done in an online game, such as GB.

 

[Brookman]

nerfign characters isn't the answer, improving the bad ones is. it's not that sheik is super above average, it's just that most other characters are super below

 

[crazyforkillua]

Thats why there are tiers.......

 

[Ragnarok91]

Finally finished reading the thread. (it's 3 am and I had nothing to do)

Sorry if this is a doublepost.

That sucks, man. See, YOU know the truth. You'd rather be good at the game than decide who you use based on how much you like him or how cool he is. So you chose Fox. Fox is almost broken in HIS OWN favor he's so good. But he sucks. He's boring and his attacks are like standard super-kung-fu attacks with no flare or finesse. Why would they give mewtwo the purple fire, and the eletrical sparks, and the floating, and the intimidation and coolness, but just make him a broken character? It's not fair, man. When I found out Mewtwo was in SSBM I almost cried, because I was a huge PKMN geek back then. Gosh, I just wish they had at least made the cool-LOOKING characters unfairly powerful. Now I have to be afraid of a kung fu foxman, a cliche-looking anime dude with a sword, and a shemale in tights. This game scarred me.

And isn't wavedashing the ability to short hop like an inch from the ground before immediately doing a back-diagonal air-dodge? Over and over and over in successful sequence? Hahaha, are you crazy? Of course that's mad-l33t! That would take months to master!

Broken is first used to describe cheapness (unless I'm reading the sentence wrong; I am a bit confused by it), then the second time it is used to describe the opposite.

I'd understand people misusing broken as bad instead of uber cheap, but how can you use both definitions...

Wavedashing isn't necessarily done how you described it, and it doesn't make you mad-1337. I figured out how you do it in 2 tries with Luigi (well I figured out how to triangle jump, then I realized it wasn't a wavedash, then got it). I then tried to do it with Fox, whom I use. Took a minute tops. Then I had to implement it into battle. Not too hard, you just need to make it instinct instead of something you remember to do. I don't use it much though, except when I waveshine.

A- Overpowered: Used by super-serious players who usually care nothing for the character's identity, look, style, or flare. Their primary concern is to just win, win, win.

B- Good: Used by serious players whom usually have a taste for who the character IS,, while the character's higher advantage level is just kind of an added bonus.

C- Okay: Used either by casual players, or elites that've maxed out their skills for the sake of regularly using a character they personally find awesome, despite the comparison.

D- Bad: Used either by extreme noobs, or the best of pros as a means to humiliate much lesser opponents. Makes a joke out of the character and ultimately gives SSBM a bad name...

F- Broken: So underdeveloped that the character cannot function properly in most serious settings. Can even be glitchy in design to their own disadvantage. Generally neglected.

Nobody noticed (well, mentioned) that F doesn't go after D, unless I'm forgetting something.

Now, I use Fox, but not to win. At first I used Falco, not sure why, but I did. One day at school, I'm pwning all, but my friend comes and pwns me with Fox. Then some time later I play with a friend, but he doesn't have Falco unlocked. I choose Fox, and I just seem so much more comfortable with it. I didn't know anything about tiers, I just used him because he fits my style. I never checked anything online for anything related to SSBM.

However, I wasn't a complete newb that knew nothing either. I played my brother constantly. He used Roy (occasionally Marth). We both trained each other and figured out stuff. Recently my friend challenged me to play, saying all this wavedash shffl mumbo jumbo. I nearly beat him (well I beat him once because he accidentally suicided, but it doesn't really count) and then decided to learn this stuff. This was when I learnt that Fox was high tier. I can wavedash, and I waveshine a lot (you could say I spam it). I shinespike a lot too, and he hates me for it (to the point he says I'm n00b). (He uses Falco, and he's annoyingly good at SHL-ing) I still cannot short hop 100% of the time (with Fox, with Marth and Falco etc. I can do it easily), so I don't shffl anything. The point of this is that now I can't use any other character, because I'm not used to it after learning Fox so much. They just don't have enough speed. I didn't choose Fox because of tiers, and don't continue to use Fox because of tiers. It's because Fox's game is my style. (couldn't think of a better way to word it)

Now for my opinions and stuff, games aren't supposed to be equal, because games weren't made to be a form of competition. Games were made for entertainment. If you honestly believe they made Pong for some high quality competition, then you're weird (I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter though). Through advancement, more complex games have been made. Through complexity there is diversity, and with diversity there is superiority. Some games are better than others, just like how some characters are better than others. However, every game/character has their own 'thing' going for them. How well this 'thing' does is what ranks the game/character. Top tier characters are top tier because their unique trait (a.k.a. their 'thing') counters more unique traits than the others do. They aren't necessarily rigged, they just have the proper arsenal for taking down more characters. If 50 new characters were added, with traits that just pwn the current top tiers, and just get utterly beaten by Pichu (maybe because they're water type!... ) then Pichu will be top tier. Not because he is good, but because he now has a superior advantage over 2/3 of the characters.

Finally, Pichu hurts himself because he's a baby Pikachu and hasn't learnt to control his electricity.

 

[sampitt94]

No, personally I think your judgement is flawed.
When my friend and I were smashing each other, he was Fox and I was Falco. He found out that it was hard for him to destroy Falco, and judged that it was much easier for me to destroy Fox. Thus, we decided this:
Fox=Offense, easy to KO, stronger attacks than Falco
Falco=Defense, hard to KO, slightly weaker attacks than Fox
Your theory is right in some ways, but wrong in others. Happy smashing!

 

[ibeplu]

its all how you play your character i mean, try it for yourself, learn how to wavedash and learn how to short hop... then actually play someone thats good and see how you do, you probobly would still get owned

 

[Zander805]

I only read the first page so ignore me if this has already been said.

SSBM is one of the more balanced fighting games out there:

1. Everyone can wavedash so you can play a slow character and still compete with faster characters.

2. Everyone has similar smash attacks (damage wise). One might argue that the faster characters smash attacks are WAY faster, but this is untrue: look at Capton Falcon...

3. EVERY character has special attributes that give them certain pros-cons. I mean common, look at Jigglypuff, my friend pwns with him, and hes a lil *****.

4. The aspect that you don't have to KILL someone, you just have to knock them off the edge - This relates to my #2 because everyone has a smash which gives them shots at getting a knock off.

I know that there are characters that are just all around better, but then again, all fighting games are imbalanced.

All that being said, Peach is really ****ing rigged. Peach's down smash can take someone from 0-70% in one hit, and then all peach needs to do is grab + forward throw, and edgegaurd - GG

 

[Brookman]

When my friend and I were smashing each other, he was Fox and I was Falco. He found out that it was hard for him to destroy Falco, and judged that it was much easier for me to destroy Fox.

that only means you are a better player than he is

Fox=Offense, easy to KO, stronger attacks than Falco

falco should be the more offensive one in this match, if he is played right.

Falco=Defense, hard to KO, slightly weaker attacks than Fox

falco has a weaker up smash/up air. other wise his moves are more powerful
fsmash/bair/dtilt/laser etc. and if you can shinespike well falco should be pretty easy to KO.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

All that being said, Peach is really ****ing rigged. Peach's down smash can take someone from 0-70% in one hit, and then all peach needs to do is grab + forward throw, and edgegaurd - GG

If you let it do 70%, you CC too much. If you let F-throw kill you below 120%, you can't DI. Technically Ganondorf's Up tilt can kill someone at 10 percent, is he rigged? It's not always about maximum performance, alot of the time it's about realistic and typical performance. Downsmash is great , I think, for speed and priority, and range. It has an above average amount of all of these things, something most moves don't have all three of. I don't think it has awesome power that can't easily be avoided. It doesn't matter if it can do 70% if good players won't let that happen at all. That's why a good player will override stats, IMO. I think it just may simply take you to be a significantly amount "more good" than usual to combat increasingly better stats of your opponent.

As people have seen that have largely been ignored, it's all about matchups - playstyle mathups, character matchups, and level matchups. Tiers is my view an "average" of all this together.

 

[Ismael]

You do have a point here and there, but SSBM is fine like it is. Look how many people play and love the game! And some of the things you pute though, are excuses on why your not good at the game. It IS a skill game. You just don't have skill. Which is why your saying that SSBM has no skill involved.

 

[krazyzyko]

I haven't went to a tourney yet (but I have went to hundreds of smashfests) but I DO WD through all the setting , shuffle and etc.

There are Hundreds of people that use as a main one of the characters in the game and use their speed or lagness strenght and weaknesses for their advantage.(ask them!)

You can ask me about Fox if you want.

.........later

 

[NinjaFoxX]

I haven't went to a tourney yet (but I have went to hundreds of smashfests) but I DO WD through all the setting , shuffle and etc.

There are Hundreds of people that use as a main one of the characters in the game and use their speed or lagness strenght and weaknesses for their advantage.(ask them!)

You can ask me about Fox if you want.

.........later

ok,whats the best combo with fox?
whats the best thing to ust in cruel melee besides up-B?

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

heh dont ask krazy, he really doesnt know.

 

[Uncle Meat]

There isn't a best combo for Fox. It's all situational. If you can get it down right, the Drill Shine Infinite is really the best combo he has, seeing as you can just get them to like 5739583948 percent and then waveshine to usmash, but it's very hard to do.

 

[PurpleEqualsDoom]

Let's hear it for being a Thread Necromancer. I do this because this subject will never be resolved and will always be valid.


And if the past 5 pages of this is about FOX, I am going to vomit. Can the SSBM community shut up about Fox for five seconds, please. There are 20-something other characters. Too bad the ****tyness of this game causes us to forget that. Tch... diversity...

 

[KyUuKyUu]

You have to accept that Fox is pretty much a universally popular character.

If this game is ****ty, don't play it, why do you have to go and ***** about it?

A- Overpowered: Used by super-serious players who usually care nothing for the character's identity, look, style, or flare. Their primary concern is to just win, win, win.

B- Good: Used by serious players whom usually have a taste for who the character IS,, while the character's higher advantage level is just kind of an added bonus.

C- Okay: Used either by casual players, or elites that've maxed out their skills for the sake of regularly using a character they personally find awesome, despite the comparison.

D- Bad: Used either by extreme noobs, or the best of pros as a means to humiliate much lesser opponents. Makes a joke out of the character and ultimately gives SSBM a bad name...

F- Broken: So underdeveloped that the character cannot function properly in most serious settings. Can even be glitchy in design to their own disadvantage. Generally neglected.


Looking over this again, I have to admit that their is some great potential excitement that can come from a high-skilled player using a low-tier character and actually being good, but it's a concept rarely seen anyway.

You probably don't play a variety of people if that's what your feeling about SSBM is. Yes there are people who only play to win, those are the noobs who you IGNORE. And I can't believe your C and F. Not ALL THE PROS play all the top tier characters. The rest of the characters ARE NOT left to the pros after they've mastered their "super-overpowered character". There are lots of low-tier pros >_> F. is sort of true, but it leads me to believe you don't know much about this. Have you seen videos and stuff of the low tiers owning? "Cannot even function in most serious settings"? Maybe according to your experiences.

And, @ your last statement in my quote: NEO's Roy.

 

[gtothe3338]

yo was good? just play. thats all i gotta say.

 

[Ultros]

The characters are just off- balance enough so that some are slightly better than others. If certain characters were so unfair, this game wouldn't be played competitively in tournaments.

Besides, Bowser is powerful and not a bad character if you've ever seen Cpt. Jack or someone good use him.