Universal flaw in SSBM

[kirbs*]

would the speed of the internet be a problem?

anyway, a completely even game would not be fun. noobs should be allowed to pick advantaged players, giving more advanced people a slight challenge. always possible to change chars to someone you suck as to make it more even

 

[Ryan-K]

omfg I can't believe noone mentioned this.

http://www.akpage.it/ssbm/Azen(Mewtwo)-Chu(Samus).wmv

nuff said.

 

[Deleted member]

For example, doesn't it seem only fair that the world's best Mewtwo user in the world have a good chance at beating the world's best Fox in the world? Unfortunately, I think that'd be a slaughter.

Ironically, I tried this in a major tournament last year vs the best REAL fox player in the country, chillindude289. I gave him 41% in a 5 stock match -_-

 

[MaskedMarth]

since when was it in vogue to be stupid?

guys, priority does not exist. it's the one thing that red oxygen gets right. priority is an illusion. smash is made of offensive and defensive hitboxes; if the enemy's offensive hitbox overlaps your defensive hitbox, you're hit. if two ground attacks hit at the same time, they clank. those are the rules of the so-called "priority" and i'm appalled at the general ignorance of this topic here.

red oxygen, i know you from smgu, right? guys, don't listen to him >_>

unknown522 reeks of raging_placenta from gfaqs...don't listen to him either.

gah, since when was melee discussion a worse n00b-hole than gamefaqs? we got over these debates years ago at gamefaqs; it seems that in the past year or so smashboards has become the dumping ground for arrogant little wannabes.

here's just a random nitpick:

speed will allways have an advantage over strength, there's no escaping it. whats the use of having such high powers if u cant hit your opponent? and though being weak with speed, your still doing damage and the damage builds up and it really counts.

ok, let's look at that first sentence. it doesn't mean anything. goodness people, please don't say things that equate to "speed > strength," "skill > tiers" or "mind games > tech skill." when you get down to it, those comparisons don't make any sense at all. if you're trying to say that a fast but weak character is better than a slow and powerful one....again, that doesn't really make any sense either; the statement assumes that a decrease in speed for an equal increase in power would make a character worse, but there's no way of determining what are equal increments for generalized stats that simply don't compare in the first place.

 

[darkshadows]

Masked, what you just explained is shortened down to what we consider priority

And about the comparisons, we aren't really comparing what is BETTER than the other, only:

Speed>Strength
We're deciding which is more important to have for a character

Skill>Tiers
We're deciding how to compare characters, and comparing players by skill is a lot better than just looking at their mains (my pichu>my neighbor's marth)

Mindgames>Tech skill
We're deciding which one is more important to a match, all the tech skill won't help you if you can't use it.

 

[PurpleEqualsDoom]

I recently had the greatest match of my life so far using Ganondorf against this near-tourney-level guy using Young Link. Best short-hopping and air-dodging I've ever done in my life. An epic close match, too. Plus, since Dorf is a good showman, the audience was just as excited as I was. I wish all the characters were as relatively even in balance like Dorf is to Link.

But then, it wouldn't be fun if people weren't forced to neglect their favorite characters because they were broken, right?

I don't know jack crap about game design, and I've already figured out the principle for a perfect game.

BALANCE and VARIETY can CO-EXIST.

It's possible, people. Seeing Halo 2 and SSBM, though, it's apparently difficult to implement. Really, though, all they needed to do was dumb down some of the fast character's power and raise some of the slower character's resistence. I wonder if balance in a game is a concern for Nintendo...

 

[six]

rofl ssbm is pretty balanced compared to most fighting games once you get good at it

of course, you apparently won't open your ears to the what everyone on this thread has said and stick to your inexperienced opinion of the game, so it doesn't matter to you either way.

 

[Da illest]

I belive the game is fair , just becuase if heard of almsot every charcter winning a tourney against higher tier people.Sadly luigi the only one i havent heard who won a tourney ='( but that all change soon.>=( holla!

 

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

In order for all characters to be perfectly balanced all characters would have to be exactly the same.

now how boring would that be?

 

[Alavatar]

It is my personal opinion that the best players of any character when playing another master smasher, even if they playing a higher level character, will have a good match. The higher tiered character would have a slight advantage, but if the lower-tier player was good enough, he would be able to offset that difference. He would still probably lose, but it wouldn't be a slaughter.

The main thing that I notice is that one of the reason the higher tier characters are so high is that they are much easier to master than those of lower tiers. Shiek and Marth in my opinion are the two easiest characters to master in the game, or at least to be decent with. It would take someone much more effort and time to manage to master a character like Bowser or Mewtwo, and that extra effort just doesn't seem worth it, when someone could use a fraction of that time and become passable with a character that is probably better. Yet I feel that if someone actually did spend that time mastering a weaker character then they would be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[unknown522]

Can you elaborate on how Jigglypuff is cheap? And don't you dare say "REST", because you very well know that Jiggly stays asleep long enough for Ganondorf to land that God-awful tilt-up + A kick, which says a lot. Sure, it's a powerful move that instantly takes effect, but any decent player can turn the sleep time into an eternity of nightmares 'n' stuff.

WOP and jiggz' gayness in general. Just dun ask y or how.

every1 else: *wow* haters. Neways, I have never been owned by anyone, and the one tourney I lost at, I could've gone farther if I didn't get shot by an ARwing!!

 

[MaskedMarth]

GRRR. i just lost my post no less than THREE TIMES. i'm angry. here's a 3x summary of what i originally said (mostly in reply to darkshadows)

priority is a messy word, basically, so don't use it, or i assume things about you

why does "speed > strength" not make sense? figure it out for yourself, i'm tired of retyping it out food for thought - how do you measure speed? how do you measure strength?

why does "skill > tiers" not make sense? because tiers are the potential for skill w/ a particular char, so you're talking about two entirely different things.

why does "mind games > tech skill" not make sense? same reason. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=1064958#post1064958. yep, that's my post . two entirely different things, makes as much sense to say "velocity > work" or something like that. no, just no.

just as a side note, i'd like to see somebody prove that characters in a complex fighter such as smash tend to unbalance in the absense of work by the designers, and even HAL's best efforts could never completely balance ssbm because it's simply too complex to overcome its natural unbalancing tendency.

 

[Ryan-K]

It is my personal opinion that the best players of any character when playing another master smasher, even if they playing a higher level character, will have a good match. The higher tiered character would have a slight advantage, but if the lower-tier player was good enough, he would be able to offset that difference. He would still probably lose, but it wouldn't be a slaughter.

The main thing that I notice is that one of the reason the higher tier characters are so high is that they are much easier to master than those of lower tiers. Shiek and Marth in my opinion are the two easiest characters to master in the game, or at least to be decent with. It would take someone much more effort and time to manage to master a character like Bowser or Mewtwo, and that extra effort just doesn't seem worth it, when someone could use a fraction of that time and become passable with a character that is probably better. Yet I feel that if someone actually did spend that time mastering a weaker character then they would be a force to be reckoned with.

That is total BS. Try perfecting perfect spacing on all of Marth's moves during an intense battle and perfect every possible tech skill with Fox in 2 days, which should be feasible according to your logic.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

actually most of the time it is the lower tier chars that are easier to master, but due to their various flaws which they have, are not able to stand up to the better characters. ur telling me that bowser or link is harder to master then fox or marth..... or harder to win with ??? dont get those 2 confused.

 

[krazyzyko]

Well the game isn't unbalanced.

All characters have their weaknesses and strengths, some easier to master than others.
That's why not all characters are top tier, that's just generally the peoples favorites.

For example, my main character is Fox McCloud,why? because I love his speed,style,attitude and I've been using him since 64.

Lets say yours is Pichu, his light,and hurts himself but he is floaty(air control),great recoveries.
Many people judge the chars because of their size, and it were for that, no one will use Puff and Bowser will be top tier.(and they are not)

My point is that the game IS balanced.

......later

 

[Ryan-K]

What the HELL are you talking about? If size was all that matters, then how come Puff is High/Upper tier? If size were all that matters, Marth wouldn't be top since he's a pretty **** tall character.

Tiers are just how certain characters can deal with certain situations. The Universal Flaw of SSBM is that people whine about tiers and 'complex techniques'.

 

[AlphaZealot]

"skill>tiers" doesn't make sense, here is why.

I bought the game today. I play Marth. I lose to my friends Pichu. You scream "SEE TIRES DON EXITS!!!". How in anyway does that justify your example?

Tiers only take into account tournament players, and even so, good tournament players (relatively equal skill and technical ability), that is the only level that means anything. I'm not saying tiers are the end all be all, its a mix of tiers and knowing how to counter character that makes this game balanced. Marth may be top tier, and G&W may be significantly lower, but its not as uneven a matchup as you may think. The same can be said for alot of other matchups of top vs low tier, not the majority, but enough that it is noteworthy. You confuse this as being "TIRES DON EXITS".

TIRES DO EXITS

 

[Psiklone]

There is no extreme: tiers do exist, but skill matters more than tier.

Would you really change what character you are to beat your opponent? Probably not (unless you're a n00b)

But once you whip your friend's butt, he might complain about how you used his character's counter, so that entire match didn't count.

Wow, you live kinda near me, Alpha Zealot.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Actually, for tournaments, the majority of people play multiple characters so they can change in order to beat there opponants. My Peach is helpless against Ganon, both because of character disadvantages, and because of me. But, I have other characters that stand a better chance.

So, yes, you would change your character to beat your opponant.

Hol' up, you live in DC? You realize what a rare breed you are? PM me.

 

[MaskedMarth]

let me clarify: tiers do not affect the battle, they affect skill. tiers are NOT a modifier that gives characters like fox a general advantage (that can be overcome with "skill") - they are a component of skill itself. one is not simply "good" at smash - one is "good with fox," "good with roy," "good with everybody," etc. the point is, the only thing tiers do is place constraints on skill.

 

[Alucart_Shield]

The only thing tiers do is classify opinion. Holy God-who-doesn't-exist, I don't like pointing out the opinionated basings of being a "good player" or using a "good character", but nobody else seems to be incinerating the dirty laundry. (Apologies in advance to anyone who gets confused when I use metaphors.) Do I need to take examples and have you post them over your toilet so you understand more and more every time you go take a crap?

Well, a "n00b" watches a person play, and they may say, "W0w, waht an awesoem playa!" Some "elite" player watches the same person, and says, "Okay, you missed this, this, and this...no wonder you suck," or something similar.

If anyone else would like to hide their opinions behind transparent words such as "good" or "skilled", find me so I can burn off each of your toes individually. It's the only way you'll understand how painful it is for me to leaf through this thread see so many arguments based on opinion. So nobody asks me why I endure this pain, it is because I am waiting for someone else to say "this is all opinionated drivel" run you into the ground.

Now excuse me as I go back to what I was doing...

 

[six]

tiers are an excuse to not be as good as someone else, no more, no less

if you use yoshi, lose to a marth, and blame it on tiers, you suck with yoshi. i've seen bringer almost beat CJ when CJ was using sheik and bringer was using yoshi. now wtf says you can't beat some scrub marth at some ****ty local tourney with yoshi, if someone can do that with him. if you lose to someone then they played better/smarter that game, period.

deal with it or play a "better" character. no one's stopping you from maining sheik if you think tiers are that important. but if you don't play a top tier, then don't point to tiers and ***** and cry if and when you lose (and you will, everyone loses), because trust me, nobody cares.

EDIT: no offense to any yoshi's out there, you guys have one of the most chill boards on the forums, no joke. i was just using yosh as an example since he isn't top tier.

 

[PurpleEqualsDoom]

TIERS were created by fans, not by the game developers.

TIERS were created by fans, based on montoring exactly which characters had natural, uncontrollable advantages against others.

TIERS, therefor, are the direct result of some characters just being better or worse.

If the majority of dedicated SSBM players did not wish to exploit the game's brokenness, TIERS would have never been constructed and officialized.

so, ultimately, the TIERS, are the PROOF of the game's lacking balance.


EDIT: Hahaha, look at all these pompous Fox, Marth, and Sheik users trying to call us noobs and crybabies. Such gorgious proof of my point. Can I get a pro GAME AND WATCH or NESS player to show me up and tell me I suck? Please. I need it. It would be the best argument I ever lost.

 

[darkshadows]

I agree with most of what Purple said, except that SSBM players didn't just create tiers because of brokenness, which I also disagree on, but players made tiers depending on a lot of factors, usefullness, speed, power, aerial ability, falling speed, and a lot of other things, not just wd'ing/shffling/teching.

 

[Itachi.Uchiha]

IMHO

the only universal flaw in SSBM is that you can't change the controller settings
i hate the jump on the control stick

guys, what is SSBM for u ? just a "4 stock 10 min. FD - char y vs. char z" ?
i guess so, it´s a rule that Players made, with the reason that there is only "skill" and no other factors that can disturb the match.

this game is great, its just fun, every time i ( me "noob" ) play with my friends ( "noobs" as well ) play it, its the time worth it. Did u ever use items, or play other modes like tiny mode ? then open your eyes, this is fun, it doesn't matter who wins.

the fact that u minize and focus the game to that rule that some geeks made, is that u think SSBM is so a ****** game, no balance, no what ever ..

think about it ...

------------------
sry 4 my bad english, iam just an noobish handsome german with no girlfriend

 

[darkshadows]

Happy first post Itachi.

In SSBM, you can jump by using X and Y. Helps a lot with short hops and wavedashes, try it!

And SSBM isn't just a 4 stock 10 min FD 2 char vs game. There is a reason why there are 4 controller ports. People love to play ffas, skill matches, stadium contests (cough Tipo cough), or any random battle that you thought would be fun (4 foxes in a laser tag stamina contest in hyrule!!). The 1v1 on FD is only for the skill matches in tourneys, where there are really no variable factors that can change outcomes (say, in Big Blue, 2 people are fighting, and then one hits the ground by accident, although he was having a good game. Is that fair?)

And yes we do use items, it's only that we take them off in skill matches so a player getting mauled can't suddenly pick up starman/invisibility/metal/bunny hood/warp star and change the game around, tourneys (most of em) are for skill. But yes seeing the look on your opponents' face when you suddenly beat him to a heart container or a starman is fun. (did you know you can hit Z while midair to grab inair things?)

So just hang around, practice SSBM some more, and maybe you wont be as noobish as you were.

 

[PurpleEqualsDoom]

Dude, I didn't say tiers were just for measuring a character's glitchyness. I meant they are for measuring a character's overall ability and level of general advantage that isn't easily cancelled out depending on the skill of the user or the skill of the foe. It's very blatent. Here is how I see what the tiers do to my view of the game now. There are always exceptions, however.


A- Overpowered: Used by super-serious players who usually care nothing for the character's identity, look, style, or flare. Their primary concern is to just win, win, win.

B- Good: Used by serious players whom usually have a taste for who the character IS,, while the character's higher advantage level is just kind of an added bonus.

C- Okay: Used either by casual players, or elites that've maxed out their skills for the sake of regularly using a character they personally find awesome, despite the comparison.

D- Bad: Used either by extreme noobs, or the best of pros as a means to humiliate much lesser opponents. Makes a joke out of the character and ultimately gives SSBM a bad name...

F- Broken: So underdeveloped that the character cannot function properly in most serious settings. Can even be glitchy in design to their own disadvantage. Generally neglected.


Looking over this again, I have to admit that their is some great potential excitement that can come from a high-skilled player using a low-tier character and actually being good, but it's a concept rarely seen anyway. Figuratively, these "tiers" are a shrine to SSBM being a digital version of Paper-Rock-Scissors. Okay vs broken, overpowered vs. okay, bad vs. good, this is not the way competitive video gaming should be. I think that EVERY character should be kind of the "C tier"; every character is okay, but their best potential can be unlocked or surpassed depending on the skill of the player. That's my ideal game. Maybe my priotrities in judging video games is warped, though.

 

[Cloudlockhart]

Okay, I beleive that it dosent matter what tier a character is in, it all depends on the skills of the PLAYER! I use C.Falcon and hes considered a below highest tier and I beat the crap out of everysingle person that uses a (highest tier) character in tournaments and occasional challangers. It all depends on the player not the character, heck I sometimes use Link and Roy and still beat all these Marths,Sheiks and Foxes. So dont let the tier thing be an excuse for loosing! Its all about the skills of the player!!!

 

[MookieRah]

For starters, Broken means someone is too good that the character is banned from a tournament. There are no characters that unbalanced in smash, and there aren't characters that are "so underdeveloped that they can't function properly". Also, the peepz that are crazy with low or mid tier characters don't really play them for the challenge they face, they play them cause it's their best character. Anyone that is good enough to win tournaments doesn't care about a made up "honor system" anymore and they play to win as well.

Also, most masters of less used characters come to realize that their respective characters aren't as bad as the tiers make them out to be. Sure, they have more counters typically, but with the rest of the cast they realize that they do well.

I dunno, I may only be talking about myself, but I just don't see the best DK playing cause he is a big fan of DK as opposed to it being his best character. It might have started that way, no doubt, but at this point they play that character cause it's their best chance for a win.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

but I just don't see the best DK playing cause he is a big fan of DK as opposed to it being his best character. It might have started that way, no doubt, but at this point they play that character cause it's their best chance for a win.

thats the obovious part, a person plays as a charcter because

1.they like that character
2.because that character might be one of the best
3.and with the proper training any character can become the best

but that's me,most people just pick a character and gamble their chances.

 

[Cloudlockhart]

Okay, I know this isnt the place to ask but then again it isnt a big deal...how does reputation work?
Or you can send me a link to this ?. Thanx

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Okay, I know this isnt the place to ask but then again it isnt a big deal...how does reputation work?
Or you can send me a link to this ?. Thanx

i dont remember but once u get 100 posts your rank goes to smash journeyman

 

[darkshadows]

thats the obovious part, a person plays as a charcter because

1.they like that character
2.because that character might be one of the best
3.and with the proper training any character can become the best

but that's me,most people just pick a character and gamble their chances.

btw, that was my first post in this thread as well...

about the gamble, NOBODY, even complete newbs, gamble at chars in a vs mode. People will choose new chars if they want to try somebody new, but no one gambles, there is always a factor to why they choose a character, be it speed, strength, crowd control, versatility, killing ability, or whatever, but no one gambles


and yea 100 posts is a journeyman (weird thing, while learning about the middle ages in HS, in medieval guilds, the order is: Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, while in here, journeyman comes before apprentice. hmmm)
However, your post count doesn't really affect anything, just your title, it's your value of your posts that determine your real ability, so some noobs out there aren't exactly true noobs, although some are.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

trust me, me and marfire are true professionals(mabey you too)
a noob can be someone new to a ssbm site, but a all pro at the game itself,a rank here can be somthing better in a smasher's own home,this is just a place where fellow smashers talk about
their smash life and stradeges.

 

[MaskedMarth]

if i had 100$ on the line, i wouldn't throw away my chances by using a character i was unfamiliar with. i'm a captain falcon player - i'd use captain falcon.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

first off enough with this all chars can be just as good as eachother, all of u who say this pick ur fav low tier and ill be marth, sheik, or IC and ill crush you... why ... because the chars are not good, doesnt mean u cant play them and win with them, but ur not gonna win a major tournie. it is simply part of the game, stop with the denials.

2nd, purple.... i was a all bowser player for the longest time.... and i never had even a hope of winnin a tournie, as was luke and the highest he got was a 17th at MLG Chicago, if you play a game to win you are going to want to use the upper tier cast of the game ... nothing wrong with that guy, now if u lose playing a low tier and complain about the tiers being the reason.... of course its the reason so play a higher tier char and stop *****ing. peeps who main low tiers play them to see what tehy can do and have fun, peeps like luke and mookierah play these chars because they are fun and are not after the big win necessarily. and more so you can choose sheik, marth, or fox and ill kick ur *** why....? because u are a scrub. the tier doesnt play the char for you, u have to get rather good with these top chars to stand a chance at winning anything, just because ur scrub *** gets killed by a c-stick spamming marth doesnt mean that the char doesnt take skill to play. a c-stick spamming marth should get his *** kicked because the f smash sucks if u dont use it right. done...

 

[Blind]

Seems we don't have much less than 3 for grammar up in here. TIRES DON EXITS !!!111onEtilDe

Why did this turn into a discussion on tiers? Tiers are an analysis of characters' general advantages and ranks them according to the importance and quantity of those advantages. We consider Shiek, Fox, and Marth to have the most advantages and we consider that those advantages are very powerful. That's all it means. The tier system does not specify WHAT those advantages are, or the specific traits of the characters. Does the tier system tell you that Shiek can be chaingrabbed by IC's? No, it doesn't. The tier list is an unspecific guide to which characters have lots of advantages.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, I'd be more in favor of a chart system that rates character matchups. We can look at characters with a lot less bias that way. That's kind of what RiTT is for, but nobody seems interested in it so :/

Of course, without tier lists we couldn't have low tier tournaments. That would make me sorrow.

And of course attacks have priority. Or at least, Shiek's needles have priority and nothing else does, because Shiek's needles ALWAYS WIN EVERYTHING. ::shrug::

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Wow, wavedashing can be learned in a couple of hours, and mastered in a couple of weeks.

I know that discussion is over, I just felt I needed to say that.

 

[darkshadows]

ehh...welcome to the boards Popeofchilitown, and the first thing I'd tell you is that the mods really don't like posts in the wrong thread (were you trying to post in the how do i practice wd'ing?? ).

Well, yes the discussion is over, and does RiTT stand for Roy is Top Tier? Not too sure about that...is it the little vbulletin forum about the matchups?

 

[breakyourarmor]

Comforting words, but I'm still highly skeptical. And I don't agree with diversity somehow being separate from balance. That's the Halo 2 argument as well. People need to realize that it's possible for a game to be cool, big, AND fair. It's a crying shame that gameandwatch, bowser, and pichu are "humiliation" characters. As if in serious battle you could afford to **** around like that. All three of those character's deserve their dignity, but unfortunately, they're broken. It should be possible for someone to master Bowser and make up for his giant body and slow movement via insane wavedashing, dodging, and shorthopping. I wonder if there's a person like that out there...

And speaking of Mewtwo's attacks being "random and unpredictable", what about his OverB special? Not only does flipping the enemy do jack damage, but allows them to immediately counter with an air attack. That's not all though. It can reflect objects and projectiles, BUT Nintendo probably got impatient and forgot to complete that attack, because anything reflected by it goes THROUGH the enemy as if it wasn't even there. SO gay how Nintendo could actually allow a glitch like that. What is it supposed to be, like, some psych-out mirage attack? That'd be a hilarious excuse. And as far as the Paralysis Glare, when is it a good idea to use that? It's too hard to get on people, and the whole glare-while-asleep attack is pointless too. Doggonit Mewtwo, you were supposed to own this game.... They had better fix him for SSBRevolution, assuming it's not too different from the first two.

Things like this piss me off because when I first started playing the game, it was my goal to master all three of the villains... as a kept getting owned by my freinds' fast characters, I wondered if I just sucked. Then I figured out it's because all 3 of the villains kind of suck (Dorf I admit is often dangerous).

Sorry, but the Halo 2 analogy was terrible. Halo 2 was made for the casual gamer, anyone can jump on and get 20 headshots a game with the sniper with the increased autoaim. Bungies' a sellout, they went from Halo 1, arguably one of the most competitive games out, to Halo 2, the game that appealed to the masses. www.halo2sucks.com. Check it out, if that doesn't change your view on Halo 2......