Universal flaw in SSBM

[krimzonwaffle]

, a fast hand can beat a top tier p3nis. .

i get that lol

 

[Jim0]

No, he's right. Speed beats power hands down. Sure there is a little balance, but not much. That's why characters like ganondorf, who is a good character ovrall, can be overwhelmed by the speed of characters like Fox falco and CF.

That's not always the case. I never really see a Pichu beat a good Bowser these days.

 

[krimzonwaffle]

OHH!! I see! Pichu is top tier then!

THANKS!!

hey ive played some really good pichus in my day, in my oppinion it should be bowser as bottom tier. those pichu people can get pretty good, and its kinda not really fair or known why pichu has to hurt itself when it does electric attacks

 

[krimzonwaffle]

and pichu isnt as fast as people put him up to.

 

[Jim0]

hey ive played some really good pichus in my day, in my oppinion it should be bowser as bottom tier. those pichu people can get pretty good, and its kinda not really fair or known why pichu has to hurt itself when it does electric attacks

Have you played any good Bowsers?

 

[D1]

LMAO @ LORD HDL post of the day!!! ^_^

Nowadays even tho tier lists are somewhat accurate I try my best not to dwell on them too much...

...at first it would influence me to use certain chars just cuz they're up in the tiers (w/ the exception of Fox for some reason I always played w/ him even tho I didn't know about all his advanced sh** b4 I came to smashboards I was shocked to know he was top tier lol).

Now the tier list is startin to influence me to try to use chars that not that many people deem as tourney-worthy choices...Ness/Link FTW!!!

 

[Blind]

Speed isn't the only factor... I was just fiddling around with Pichu the other day and he's a very fast character. His running speed combined with shffling means you can put out a lot of attacks in a short time. But... short range, low weight, lacking moves with enough priority to prevent him from trading hits, his strongest move can be DI'ed out of easily... there's a lot against him. But that happens in every game. Developers occasionally don't see how the parts of a character add up to something much, much bigger.

Consider the reflector. I'm willing to bet the developers, even though they were aware of wavedashing, never thought that you could wavedash from the shine to do infinite combos., because jump cancelling makes it an amazing move. Maybe they would have thought, "bleh, screw that" and taken away JC'ing. Fox would still be a good character, but not nearly as powerful; no waveshines, no impenetrable drill shines, no infinites, much more difficult shine spikes (less fluid, certainly, and more easy to punish a missed one). Funny how altering the property of a single move could drastically change his effectiveness. He'd still have his u-smash, his u-air juggles, his amazing shffling game... but a large part of his current game would be gone.

I also find it silly that people find it humiliating to lose to GW, or Bowser. Just because a character has more disadvantages than others doesn't mean that character doesn't have options, and a master of that character is not something to scoffed at. In fact, if somebody in a tournament picks a less used character against me, I'm more inclined to play harder, because they might know something I don't (although, I'm proud to say that I've learned a fair amount of tricks with each character and have seen pros in action for just about every character, so I have a decent idea of what each can do). But the fact is no character in this game is not a threat. Arash and Luke are AMAZING Bowser players who can beat people using more mainstream characters, people who are well respected for their skill.

And as pointed out, a lot more in this game has to do with counterstages and counter characters. Also pointed out recently (not in this thread, I don't think) most people don't just stick with ONE character any more. You can't, unless you're one of the few truly elite players. But those people are definitely exceptions and not the rule, so :D @ them. They deserve their spots.

Personally, I have a pessimistic hunch that Smash for the Revolution isn't going to be as balanced as this one, and will probably have numerous broken tactics or characters... but those can always be banned, yknow . I'm only guessing this because there are going to be even more characters, and since Nintendo is going to try and make them all different from each other in their playing styles, they will probably (inadvertantly) make one or two of them radically unfair. It's just a hunch, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Jim0]

Speed isn't the only factor... I was just fiddling around with Pichu the other day and he's a very fast character. His running speed combined with shffling means you can put out a lot of attacks in a short time. But... short range, low weight, lacking moves with enough priority to prevent him from trading hits, his strongest move can be DI'ed out of easily... there's a lot against him. But that happens in every game. Developers occasionally don't see how the parts of a character add up to something much, much bigger.

Consider the reflector. I'm willing to bet the developers, even though they were aware of wavedashing, never thought that you could wavedash from the shine to do infinite combos., because jump cancelling makes it an amazing move. Maybe they would have thought, "bleh, screw that" and taken away JC'ing. Fox would still be a good character, but not nearly as powerful; no waveshines, no impenetrable drill shines, no infinites, much more difficult shine spikes (less fluid, certainly, and more easy to punish a missed one). Funny how altering the property of a single move could drastically change his effectiveness. He'd still have his u-smash, his u-air juggles, his amazing shffling game... but a large part of his current game would be gone.

I also find it silly that people find it humiliating to lose to GW, or Bowser. Just because a character has more disadvantages than others doesn't mean that character doesn't have options, and a master of that character is not something to scoffed at. In fact, if somebody in a tournament picks a less used character against me, I'm more inclined to play harder, because they might know something I don't (although, I'm proud to say that I've learned a fair amount of tricks with each character and have seen pros in action for just about every character, so I have a decent idea of what each can do). But the fact is no character in this game is not a threat. Arash and Luke are AMAZING Bowser players who can beat people using more mainstream characters, people who are well respected for their skill.

And as pointed out, a lot more in this game has to do with counterstages and counter characters. Also pointed out recently (not in this thread, I don't think) most people don't just stick with ONE character any more. You can't, unless you're one of the few truly elite players. But those people are definitely exceptions and not the rule, so :D @ them. They deserve their spots.

Personally, I have a pessimistic hunch that Smash for the Revolution isn't going to be as balanced as this one, and will probably have numerous broken tactics or characters... but those can always be banned, yknow . I'm only guessing this because there are going to be even more characters, and since Nintendo is going to try and make them all different from each other in their playing styles, they will probably (inadvertantly) make one or two of them radically unfair. It's just a hunch, but I hope I'm wrong.

Amen to that. Yay @ HonorBound for post of the day!

 

[Kokichi]

Chu's Game & Watch was equal to Ken's Marth at MLG LA; he would have won had he hit Ken just slightly harder (they both had around 130%). You'll see that time and time again, it doesn't matter the character, but the person who's playing it. Of course the game is more geared towards favoring Fox over Mewtwo, but if you have a player of equal skill playing both parties, it would be a close match.

 

[Tempest 01]

Why the **** do pple think G&W is a bad character? i don't see it, besides weight...

HERE IT IS: speed=power. think: a fast character can deal damage fast, and unpredictably. A slow, power char. needs to get a opening and land one strike to deal just as much, but thats a lot harder; BUT it doesn't mean its worse. Pichu is quick, has super power smashes, and is small. pple thinks he sucks because he hurts himself (1-4%!!!) and is so light. Big ****, i think advantages out wiegh cons. Other's won't.

Fox is fast, powerful, and has good recovery. Marth has huge range, speed+power, and awsome recovery. Sheik is good at making openings and getting in huge combo's and has great finishers. Low-tiers don't have this diversity; they do one thing good, and thats it...

 

[Uno]

Yes, this topic is getting kind of repetitive now.

This is all I see to it, once the chars and stage are picked, it just matters what you do and how you play. Simple as that.

 

[Jim0]

Why the **** do pple think G&W is a bad character? i don't see it, besides weight...

HERE IT IS: speed=power. think: a fast character can deal damage fast, and unpredictably. A slow, power char. needs to get a opening and land one strike to deal just as much, but thats a lot harder; BUT it doesn't mean its worse. Pichu is quick, has super power smashes, and is small. pple thinks he sucks because he hurts himself (1-4%!!!) and is so light. Big ****, i think advantages out wiegh cons. Other's won't.

Fox is fast, powerful, and has good recovery. Marth has huge range, speed+power, and awsome recovery. Sheik is good at making openings and getting in huge combo's and has great finishers. Low-tiers don't have this diversity; they do one thing good, and thats it...

And his terrible range, low weight, and moves that lack priority.

 

[Red_Oxygen]

Why the **** do pple think G&W is a bad character? i don't see it, besides weight...

HERE IT IS: speed=power. think: a fast character can deal damage fast, and unpredictably. A slow, power char. needs to get a opening and land one strike to deal just as much, but thats a lot harder; BUT it doesn't mean its worse. Pichu is quick, has super power smashes, and is small. pple thinks he sucks because he hurts himself (1-4%!!!) and is so light. Big ****, i think advantages out wiegh cons. Other's won't.

Fox is fast, powerful, and has good recovery. Marth has huge range, speed+power, and awsome recovery. Sheik is good at making openings and getting in huge combo's and has great finishers. Low-tiers don't have this diversity; they do one thing good, and thats it...

no more like

speed+mistakes made by opponents+accumulation of hits=power

strength+timing+defense=power

 

[Red_Oxygen]

And his terrible range, low weight, and moves that lack priority.

there is no such thing as priority on SSBM...

hitbox range=prioriity

 

[HDL]

Then explain why Bowser’s forward smash has so little range and massive priority. Explain why Fox’s shine has little range and overrides almost everything. Explain why moves like Samus’s forward tilt have more range than Bowser’s forward smash but won’t override moves that his forward smash can. Hitbox range does not equal priority.

 

[theFalcoMasta]

If Ken’s Marth can be beaten with Bowser, you should have your proof on this already.

I love how people continue to use this as a "fact" and do not know what exactly happened. Ken was sandbagging, plain and simple. He made this clear to the hub a long while ago. After this, many people continued to believe CJ's bowser really beat his Marth, so Ken turned it into a joke and anybody who asked him afterwards about this match, he sarcastically answered "yeah he beat my bowser plain and simple he's too good" (not verbatim of course, but the idea is the same).

Why would he sandbag you ask? Because he is not about to show an elite player his tactics with Marth (as applied to CJ's fighting style) on a match that is worth far less than the actual tournament.

 

[Hark21Ball]

and thus make SSBM like another game in which everything is equally balanced??

scrw that, Nintendo games are all about diversity.

-Some pick chars since they are cool
-Some pick chars because they are comfortable with them
-Some pick chars because everyone else likes them
-Some pick chars because they are fast
-Some pick chars because they are good with combos
-Some pick chars because they want to humiliate their opponents (Pichu, g+w, Bowser)

Oh and, it's not just because of speed and power. Fox may be powerful and fast, but if he gets caught in a combo, he's done for. Mewtwo may be slow and weak, but his attacks are unpredictable and random. Bowser might be big, slow, and weak, but with a good player, his combos and specials can be devastating. Pichu is incredibly light, but his tiny frame allows him to close in quickly and chain attacks. Sheik might be great all around, but she does have her counters. Every character has their counters.

Very well put. My brothers picked their characters becase they always liked them. My characters are all based on how they flow with me.

 

[Morton Junior]

I love how people continue to use this as a "fact" and do not know what exactly happened. Ken was sandbagging, plain and simple. He made this clear to the hub a long while ago. After this, many people continued to believe CJ's bowser really beat his Marth, so Ken turned it into a joke and anybody who asked him afterwards about this match, he sarcastically answered "yeah he beat my bowser plain and simple he's too good" (not verbatim of course, but the idea is the same).

Why would he sandbag you ask? Because he is not about to show an elite player his tactics with Marth (as applied to CJ's fighting style) on a match that is worth far less than the actual tournament.

How can we believe you? Any proof?

 

[HDL]

It wouldn’t matter anyway, since it’s not the only example. High leveled people beat other high leveled people with lower tiered characters more often than it seems. If those players actually mained those characters for years and had more matchup experience, then it would be more consistent. The characters would have some more credit but they’re probably still be where they are on the list. There has to be a base to the structure.

 

[darkshadows]

there is no such thing as priority on SSBM...

hitbox range=prioriity

have you ever seen how many times a Marth fsmash can be blocked, you hear the "cling" and then you return to normal without finishing the attack? Where's the priority there?

and speed doesn't not always pwn power.

Ganondorf is slow, lack of speed, but have you seen how far that fair and dair goes? Sure he may be a punching bag, but he can stay on the stage for quite a while, and any of his hits blows other characters pretty far.

 

[theFalcoMasta]

How can we believe you? Any proof?

I suppose you can always ask Ken himself and hope he doesn't sarcastically shrug you off.

And despite that erroneous example, I agree with what Lord HDL has said.

 

[Kevvviiinnn]

there is no such thing as priority on SSBM...

hitbox range=prioriity

Before you assume something like that, why don't you try to run some tests yourself?

 

[MookieRah]

@Red Oxygen
Everything you said about Mewtwo is incorrect. Also the statement about priority is also wrong. You actually sound a lot like this other guy on the boards who went by Muonic.

Why do people break things down into just "speed" and "power"? Those aren't the only factors in this game you know. A characters weight, falling speed, and recovery have just as much influence on what makes a character good or bad.

Also, screw the tier list, this game is all about the matchups. It doesn't matter how good or bad a character is "supposed" to be if he counters another character or vice versa.

 

[Kevvviiinnn]

@Red Oxygen
Quit assuming things like that, for most(or all) of you assumptions are biased. If you want to assume something, at least back it up with prior knowledge, that would make your opinion more feasible. Look at the facts before boasting about around the forums.

~ Kev

 

[six]

Did you know that Mewtwo beats almost every character in SSBM except falco because of teleport and disable.

I know this is late in the discussion, but I couldn't resist quoting this.

lol

And pichu hurts himself because otherwise he would be stupid-overpowered. No lie.

 

[Kevvviiinnn]

I'd like to see one of Red Oxygen's vids, see if he knows what he's talking about.

~ Kev

 

[Red_Oxygen]

I don't agree

speed will allways have an advantage over strength, there's no escaping it. whats the use of having such high powers if u cant hit your opponent? and though being weak with speed, your still doing damage and the damage builds up and it really counts.

speed+combos<<<Defense+power

Speed+combos>>>no defense+power

 

[AngeloBangelo]

Red Oxygen, I want to see a vid of you. You're all over the boards making outlandish claims like priority doesn't exist and no one knows what they're talking about except you.

 

[unknown522]

6 ultimate flaws about this game:
- Wavedashing
- fox's reflector + survival
-samus' survival
-shiek
-jigglypuff
-all other glitches

 

[YOSHIDO]

But angelo he does have a kind of truth. My yoshi is defensive. And i usally when by do in slow combos on people that do like 50 percent.

 

[darkshadows]

Defensive? In what way?
-shield lasting/put away time?
-rolling?
-wavedashing
-evading in general?
-shieldgrab usefullness?
-weight?
-floatiness?
-traction?
-combo DI escaping ability?
-counter attacks?

all these can be considered defensive, and each character has a different value of each...explain plz

 

[YOSHIDO]

Defensive? In what way?
-shield lasting/put away time?
-rolling?
-wavedashing
-evading in general?
-shieldgrab usefullness?
-weight?
-floatiness?
-traction?
-combo DI escaping ability?
-counter attacks?

all these can be considered defensive, and each character has a different value of each...explain plz

Basicly u just went into specific details on a defeinsive player. Although some of those i just characteristics of a defensive person.

 

[darkshadows]

(sry was talking to red-oxygen, i understand your point, just posted a bit too late)

 

[noob-lube69]

6 ultimate flaws about this game:
- Wavedashing
- fox's reflector + survival
-samus' survival
-shiek
-jigglypuff
-all other glitches

Wow, you made a list of everything in this game that you consider to be cheap. Maybe you should try and figure out a way around all of the cheap stuff instead of just complaining about it.

*cough* don't be a scrub *end cough*

 

[Alucart_Shield]

6 ultimate flaws about this game:
- Wavedashing
- fox's reflector + survival
-samus' survival
-shiek
-jigglypuff
-all other glitches

Can you elaborate on how Jigglypuff is cheap? And don't you dare say "REST", because you very well know that Jiggly stays asleep long enough for Ganondorf to land that God-awful tilt-up + A kick, which says a lot. Sure, it's a powerful move that instantly takes effect, but any decent player can turn the sleep time into an eternity of nightmares 'n' stuff.

 

[six]

lol if you can't beat a jiggs or a sheik or a samus or a fox than you should not be allowed to post on this forum

and if you think wavedashing is a glitch and have no argument for it then you should also go away

 

[darkshadows]

6 ultimate flaws about this game:
- Wavedashing
- fox's reflector + survival
-samus' survival
-shiek
-jigglypuff
-all other glitches

Glitches, of course are not flaws but mistakes, and you either aren't allowed to use them or they're too hard to set up.

wavedashing: does this mean that falco > fox now if wd'ing is off? now we're just rollin?
reflector: if you remove this, then fox basically lost his best asset
samus' survival: don't see anything wrong
-sheik: what about her? the fact that you got owned by one? why not be one?
-jigglypuff: rest-counterable/sing-counterable/WoP-avoidable/pound-avoidable

 

[Alucart_Shield]

Glitches, of course are not flaws but mistakes, and you either aren't allowed to use them or they're too hard to set up.

wavedashing: does this mean that falco > fox now if wd'ing is off? now we're just rollin?
reflector: if you remove this, then fox basically lost his best asset
samus' survival: don't see anything wrong
-sheik: what about her? the fact that you got owned by one? why not be one?
-jigglypuff: rest-counterable/sing-counterable/WoP-avoidable/pound-avoidable

All I can say to that is that you've effectively turned unknown522's list of "major flaws" or however he worded it against him. Let's talk about something other than how wrong he was now.

 

[darkshadows]

Ok then, the universal flaw of SSBM that I find is that SSBM cannot be connected and played online. that is all.

and I think they should allow a 8-person chaos fights when online play comes out

 

[Red_Oxygen]

Ok then, the universal flaw of SSBM that I find is that SSBM cannot be connected and played online. that is all.

and I think they should allow a 8-person chaos fights when online play comes out

the online ControlSim will hopefully come out by the end of this month or early december.

support for for SSBM v1.1 v1.2 scripts should be quick...