Unity Ruleset Subdiscussion: Stage legality

[Exdeath]

I was telling you why Luigi's Mansion is thought to be good for Olimar. I wasn't making a point.

 

[sunshade]

In that case my bad, I thought you were making a statement along the lines of "but Olimar is broken, and this is why".

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why does it matter that time outs are easy on luigi's mansion? Unless the improved ability to time characters out results in a single character decimating all others on this stage then matches hitting the 8 minute mark does not hurt anything (other than people's feelings).

I have not seen any evidence to say metaknight is broken on this stage, and I have heard people say that both DK and Olimar are huge threats on this stage (also without any evidence) which does nothing to help the claims of over centralization.

Generally easy timeouts tend to lean towards degenerate play, because if it is too easy then it's bad for the game.

It;s kind of like why Combo is generally never a tier 1 deck in MTG, either it is stoppable, like timeouts are on most stages, or it becomes too strong and focuses gameplay on itself, like how timeouts on certain stages focus gameplay on it.

This is focusing on timeouts. Not any of the DK and Co being able to momentum cancel to the 500% in the house.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

wat.

How Much magic do you play RR, because until Lorwyn, Combo was basically the uncontested best archetype. Dragonstorm, Dredge, Heartbeat, ElfClamp, and even affinity were basically combo decks.

It's only recently that combo had died down, look at extended before time spiral rotated out. Hypergenesis, hexmage depths/Swordfoundry, it really goes on

I agree with it being stoppable now, but "too strong and focuses gameplay on itself" is the definition of tier 1.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Legacy usually nerfs combo the moment it gets too good, Reanimator lost Mystical Tutor along with Ad Nausium, Survival of the fittest got the axe recently.

I know past standard had combo decks like that before and extended used to be dominated by combo til theyb changed it to four years over the old one of seven or so.

Granted Standards only combo deck that places anymore is Valakut and it loses to Caw Blade and RUG which based on Dallas is the meta. The problem is when those tier 1 or a specific tier 1 makes the game focus on itself.

There is a reason Jace the Mind Sculptor is being looked at and had a wizard's article talking about his banning made.

 

[sunshade]

Generally easy timeouts tend to lean towards degenerate play, because if it is too easy then it's bad for the game.

It;s kind of like why Combo is generally never a tier 1 deck in MTG, either it is stoppable, like timeouts are on most stages, or it becomes too strong and focuses gameplay on itself, like how timeouts on certain stages focus gameplay on it.

This is focusing on timeouts. Not any of the DK and Co being able to momentum cancel to the 500% in the house.

Matches going to time is not degenerate in the slightests. In fact I don't even think saying something is "degenerate" is a justifiable reason to ban anything. Unless there is over centralization, or randomness so intense that player skill is no longer the key determinant to victory there is no reason to ban a stage. Degenerate has always been a nice way of saying "the stage is gay" and no stage is banned for being "degenerate" they are all banned for either of the two things I just said.

Regardless of that, why is a match taking longer than 8 minutes degenerate? Is a 50/50 match-up degenerate if it happens to take 15 minutes to complete? The time a match takes should have no impact on the legality of a stage provided the stage does not over centralize, or cause marginalization of skill.

I have not seen any real data to imply that this is the case and I hear conflicting theorycraft constantly. I find it hard to believe a stage over centralizes if you can ask 5 different people who is broken there and get 5 different arguments (all of them unsupported with data).

 

[san.]

For example, it is hard for Jigglypuff vs Sonic not to go to time on any stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

For example, it is hard for Jigglypuff vs Sonic not to go to time on any stage.

It's also hard for anyone to take it seriously.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mid tier match-ups are still serious, lol.

inb4someonesaysPuffislowtier

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Mid tier match-ups are still serious, lol.

inb4someonesaysPuffislowtier

Do you remember how gay #4's GFs were? Yeah, way gayer than that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh, yeah, it's a gay match-up.

I thought you were saying that people won't take it seriously because it isn't between two good characters.

 

[Dnyce]

You do understand that my entire point was that we should not ban stages with theorycraft we should ban them with results.

The problem would be, posting results from 2008 would beg the "those results are old and don't mean anything" argument.

By all means though, PLEASE make a valid argument for LM to be legal

In that case my bad, I thought you were making a statement along the lines of "but Olimar is broken, and this is why".

I can make that argument for you

//namesearch

 

[John12346]

So... I was reading the Doubles Stage Legality thread...

They were talking about how MK could indefinitely glide at the bottom left of Temple...

And then... I thought...

What's stopping him from doing that on PS1? PS2? Halberd after landing? CS's 1st and 3rd transformations? YI?

!?

 

[Tagxy]

jolts

10jolts

also its very obvious stalling.

 

[John12346]

What if MK uses Shuttle Loop and misses the ledge while he has the lead?

 

[Ghostbone]

What if MK uses Shuttle Loop and misses the ledge while he has the lead?

There's not enough space for him to do it.

Like eventually it'll run out on those stages.

 

[xDD-Master]

Yep it only on Temple because he starts so high up.

I'm not even sure if it's truely infinitely for him on temple, maybe he "runs out of power" too after a minute or two, dunno.

 

[John12346]

I'm pretty sure MK gains 1.5x the amount of height going up that he got from going down.

 

[xDD-Master]

Why don't you just test it out on the stages?

 

[Tarmogoyf]

So... I was reading the Doubles Stage Legality thread...

They were talking about how MK could indefinitely glide at the bottom left of Temple...

And then... I thought...

What's stopping him from doing that on PS1? PS2? Halberd after landing? CS's 1st and 3rd transformations? YI?

!?

He can only do it on temple. He needs at least blank (IDK how much, only that temple is enough) amount of room. It may also have to do with the fact that temple has the huge curve, rather than a straight drop

Yep it only on Temple because he starts so high up.

I'm not even sure if it's truely infinitely for him on temple, maybe he "runs out of power" too after a minute or two, dunno.

It lasts at least 5 mins, so might as well be.