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Cecilanius

Smash Journeyman
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363
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Cleveland, Ohio
I have another ?...lately I've been trying to play some mind games and confuse my opponents by changing up my play style. On a first stock I usually do nothing but use the a button mostly and beat them phsyically. On the second I will start to get happy with my b button and use projectiles to rack up damage to finish. Then I usually mix them up on the last 3rd stock assuming. I dont always go in order like that but I try to change around to try and confuse. Is it smart to use tactics like this? Or should I just always try and keep a balance on snakes moves...
Personally, I try to mix it up so I won't seem so predictable. I try to do things almost at random but at the point that I still know what I'm going to do.

It just makes it so the opponent can't think of a counter of a certain set of moves. Because, you aren't using the same ones over again.

It seems to be a difficult thing to do. Just to think of random move sets. But, eh. It works for me. If you get used to it, theres nothing you can't do to counter various opponents. Since you make a variety in such a short amount of time rather than using the same thing over and over.

Well...maybe I'm thinking too positive of the routine. Who knows. Making something new in a short amount of time is pretty cool.
 

napZzz

Smash Hero
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Well I tend to think alot and try to be technical when I play, always trying to think ahead of what I should do and how to start playing against what my enemy is doing. And this seems to have been working for the most part except I'm wondering if maybe I should start playing different over shorter time periods and changing depending on the % my enemy is at compared with their weight. Agh I confuse myself sometimes.
 

Cecilanius

Smash Journeyman
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Whenever I notice my opponent's percent, I always seem to choke a little. I always try to do something that would kill them, but, its harder to do than playing it safe.

I wouldn't change the way I play just because of percentage. For me, it makes me just lose track of the game and just gets my mind stuck in unsafe approaches.

I wouldn't do it, just mix it up throughout the match without worrying about the condition of the enemy. Make sure its safe to do though.
 

napZzz

Smash Hero
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yeah I try to monitor the %'s just to see if I should be more aggresive cuz my % is lower than my enemy or get on defense with my % higher...but getting into the killable %s for my enemy I try to go in for kills but it seems like they expect it....I'm not really sure what to do in that situation. When I face a **** meta knight when they get to about 95% up they start to play VERY defensively because they expect my utilt or ftilt to finish them. Then I have to set up for another kill usually setting up a trap with explosives...*sigh*
 

Cecilanius

Smash Journeyman
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I know what you mean.

This game drives me mad sometimes. My friend likes to sit there and wait until I do something. Especially when he's D3.

Anyway...

Just play the way you did when you started the match. Just be more graceful when approaching your opponent. I'm sure your opponent will be so tense that he wouldn't know what to do against a Snake that approaches by instant air dodges into a b-reversed grenade. Don't try to do anything that is too powerful until you see your opponent messing up. I'm sure he/she will be too tense to even realize.

That's what I did against a MK that I played a couple of days ago. I kept it cool by approaching how I would when the game started. (Put grenades around him while air dodging profusely.) He screwed up because he wasn't expecting the weaker stuff, and then, I bair'd. Dead. End of match. :)
 

napZzz

Smash Hero
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hmmm true dat. I need to spend some more time in the air maybe seeing how I've always played characters for their good air games until snake lol (previous g&w mainer). I have found dair completely useless unless against something big, bair and uair seem good and I must use them! And I'm not sure on the fair...but I like the nair. NOthings better than watching something air dodge your mortar only to get a nair right after thats finished ^^. I've never thought of it in the eyes of my enemy, them seeing that they have a high % and I'm snake...lol. They are probably very intimidated and I should be taking advantage of that.
 

ChaoticSamus

Smash Apprentice
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I have a question. How would I edgegaurd/edgehog a Pit/Metaknight/Charizard that instead of coming up the side of the stage that I'm guarding/hogging likes to fly under the stage to the other side so I can't edgegaurd/edgehog him?
 

T*H*O*R

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
65
I have another ?...lately I've been trying to play some mind games and confuse my opponents by changing up my play style. On a first stock I usually do nothing but use the a button mostly and beat them phsyically. On the second I will start to get happy with my b button and use projectiles to rack up damage to finish. Then I usually mix them up on the last 3rd stock assuming. I dont always go in order like that but I try to change around to try and confuse. Is it smart to use tactics like this? Or should I just always try and keep a balance on snakes moves...
Well I think it's all a matter of preference. I have found that the best mind games come when you don't do something that everyone expects you to do, or when you change the rhythm of the match and catch your opponent off guard. For example, if you begin the forward tilt on someone, maybe instead of doing the whole thing, you only do the knee and then the up tilt. At a high percentage, doing this could prove fatal to your opponent because he could DI the hit in the wrong direction since he expected to be hit sideways by the end hit of the forward tilt instead of upwards by the up tilt. You can also bait your opponent by doing nothing or by doing it later than you normally would (changing the match's rhythm). If you usually dash attack or mortar slide when you run towards your foe, run towards him and grab him. If you usually do an aerial when you short hop towards your opponent, jump towards him and do nothing until you land. I like to use the forward smash to catch my opponent off guard by beginning it when I expect him to run towards me and he expects me to mortar slide towards him. Often this will result in a very skilled opponent getting hit in the face with the forward smash. Obviously there are a myriad of ways to trick your opponent, but these are some of the general ones that I use the most. I think that if you restrict yourself to a certain part of Snake's moveset for each different stock, you may be holding yourself back from doing as well as you possibly can.
 

T*H*O*R

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
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I have a question. How would I edgegaurd/edgehog a Pit/Metaknight/Charizard that instead of coming up the side of the stage that I'm guarding/hogging likes to fly under the stage to the other side so I can't edgegaurd/edgehog him?
I have actually found this to be one of the things that I like to have happen to me when I play those characters because it actually puts them at a greater disadvantage when they are trying to get back to the edge. For some people who are not very good at this technique, you can simply mortar slide (see TS01 for clarification) towards the edge they are going to and hug the edge (see TS09 for clarification) so that they can't get back up. With those who have mastered this means of recovery better, you can just jump down once you reach the other side and stage spike them with a bair, kill them in either direction with the nair, or simple spam your mortars like you would if they tried to recover to the other side. The biggest challenge is reading whether or not they are going to do this and then getting to the opposite side of the stage to edgeguard them.
 

T*H*O*R

Smash Cadet
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65
Ok see here are where my questions come in:

a. What is higher? E.g. 1 is first but 4 is the greatest number
b. What do you mean more priority because I have heard that sometimes you will take no damage while your opponent will take some (only in specific circumstances), that your opponent will take knockback and damage and you will only take damage, that your attacks will literally gain priority over attacks that they normally would not have priority over, etc? Which of these options is true?
c. Does the distance between ports have an effect on how much this happens? Will the 4 port have more priority over the 1 port than the 3 port?
d. When exactly does this come into play?
 

T*H*O*R

Smash Cadet
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Apr 9, 2008
Messages
65
Yup, so I typed it up more cleanly; here it is:


OK first off, port value is based on the number given to each player when they chose their character using that controller port; thus, port 4 is the highest port and port 1 is the lowest port. Similarly, in terms of port value 4 > 3 > 2 > 1 (like you would expect). Port priority is used to determine the outcome of ties and random events which inevitably take place during gameplay. Sometimes the higher port will take priority over the lower port and sometimes the lower port will take priority over the higher port, all depending on the situation.


Situations involving port priority and the various outcomes

  • Both players grab each other at the same time. In this case the lower port will grab the higher port player.

  • Bowsercide in a normal match (both players die at the same time). Here, if Bowser is the lower port he wins, if not, you go to sudden death.

  • If you Bowserside in sudden death, you go to a second sudden death. If you Bowsercide again in that match, Bowser wins regardless of port.
  • Kirby/Dedede inhale suicides have no advantage based on port in a normal match, and thus will result in a sudden death if both player are on their last stock.

  • If this happens in sudden death, the victim of the inhale loses regardless of port.
  • Wario bite suicide in any match will result in a stock loss for the Wario player before the stock loss for their opponent. The same applies for Donkey Kong's cargo throw suicide.

  • FAS (Faux Super Armor) occurs when a player is grabbing another player and status effect of any kind (this includes explosives) hits both of them. If the player who is in a grab (grabbing or being grabbed has no difference) has a higher player slot (P4) then he will take the damage regularly but not be affected by knock back.

  • If two characters transform at the same time, the character with the lower player slot (P1) will transform first.
For teams, the following combinations will result in the following advantages for each team


Key

Grab Priority advantage - if two players grab simultaneously, lower port wins.
Transform advantage - if two players transform at the same time, lower port transforms first.
Suicide advantage - one player remains from each team with one stock. If the player with the lower port suicides his opponent, his team wins (may be different for Gannondorf)
FSA advantage – Faux Super Armor (see number 5 above).
Team 1: P1 and P2 vs. Team 2: P3 and P4

Team 1
absolute Grab Priority (both)
absolute Transform advantage (both)
absolute Suicide advantage (both)

Team 2
absolute FSA advantage (both)

Team 1: P1 and P3 vs. Team 2: P2 and P4

Team 1
P1 has absolute Grab Priority, Transform, and Suicide advantage
P3 has FSA when grabbing P2, Grab Priority/Transform/Suicide over P4

Team 2
P4 has absolute FSA advantage
P2 has FSA when grabbing P1, Grab Priority/Transform/Suicide over P3

Team 1: P1 and P4 vs. Team 2: P2 and P3

Team 1
P1 has absolute Grab Priority, Transform, and Suicide advantage
P4 has absolute FSA advantage

Team 2
P2 and P3 have FSA over P1, Grab,Transform, and Suicide advantage over P4
 

Azrealdnt

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Ottawa
So I just learned that you can Smash DI out of Pikachu's Forward smash. The knock back is reduced so significantly that I was able to survive at 130% against a partially charged Forward Smash right at the edge of Smashville.

Method Used: Smash DI away, normal DI up, air dodge as soon as possible.
 

Azrealdnt

Smash Cadet
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Also, what moves can hit someone on the ledge, that knows how to ledge stall? I'm having problems making the ledge an unsafe place.
 

napZzz

Smash Hero
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I'm having more problems...*gulp* KILLING. I know snake is jam packed with kill moves but the thing is, I'm having trouble pulling them off. My friends all know the moves and play *****y and avoid them as much as they can. Help meh out with setting up to get moves off please!
 

Cecilanius

Smash Journeyman
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Also, what moves can hit someone on the ledge, that knows how to ledge stall? I'm having problems making the ledge an unsafe place.
To really scare my friends, I drop a grenade right on the edge, back up a few steps, and get a short hop fair to hit at the tip of the edge. Make sure the foot is hitting off the edge though. Only the foot.

Another way is to run off the edge into a bair. Stage spike woo!
 

Cecilanius

Smash Journeyman
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I'm having more problems...*gulp* KILLING. I know snake is jam packed with kill moves but the thing is, I'm having trouble pulling them off. My friends all know the moves and play *****y and avoid them as much as they can. Help meh out with setting up to get moves off please!
Could you tell us what moves you are trying to use? I'm confused. Give me an example, that will probably help me figure out what you mean.
 

napZzz

Smash Hero
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Well I have trouble landing a ftilt or an utilt at high %'s on the ground, and I'm trying to figure out how to kill from the air because its pretty predictable up there.
 

Cecilanius

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All I do is just use the simpler way of attacking. Which is just putting grenades and other explosives on the field. I bet you can get an utilt off after all of it. Because, pulling out the explosives usually makes my opponent want to approach right next to me. They don't expect the tilts after I use stuff like grenades and c4. Also, I suggest using mortar in the mix of explosives. People try to approach in the weirdest ways when you shoot a ton of mortar. It seems as if they approach at the top corners of Snake, which is perfect for an utilt.

It may take longer than using tilts to begin with, but, it all works out at the end. The explosives help quite a bit if you are panicking. Gives you your own shelter, ya know? It gives you time to chill and it also confuses your enemy if you switch from using just explosives to going into an utilt.
 

StoleUrCar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
211
This happens to me now too. My friends realize that a certain percent, i'm always going to go for the kill, simply because it's logical. They especially look out for utilt, which can be tough. A nice little trick is if you get them airborne, use a mortar to bait an airdodge, and immediately utilt if they try to punish. Or, fire the mortar early, bait the airdodge, and go for uair. Its a reliable tactic for me usually :chuckle:
 

T*H*O*R

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
65
Hey guys, sorry that I haven't answered any recent questions for the last few days, I have been on vacation.

Concerning making the edge a dangerous place, I like to shield drop grenades and spam mortars to make it difficult for people to edge stall. If they fall into a rhythm of dropping off the edge and then jumping up to grab it again, I find that the down tilt can reach below the stage just enough to catch then when they are not invincible. The long range of this move makes it safe for you to attempt it from a distance further from the edge, and also pops your opponent into the air in front of your from juggling.


Personally, if you are having trouble landing killing moves, use your stage pressuring to help get them to come to you. Specifically with regard to Metaknight, his lack of any projectiles makes him susceptible to your ranged pressuring. Cook some grenades, use your nikita or mortar slide to get him to come to you and then either shield grab him on the approach followed by a tech chased down throw, or up tilt him out of your shield. MK can also be killed at respectable percentages by the down tilt, nikitas, grenades, or mortars (as well as all your aerials) which he may not be expecting as much as your up tilt or forward tilt.
 

T*H*O*R

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Messages
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I really think that that question is too broad for me to answer. In general though, people who can gimp Snake's recovery and keep him in the air for most of the game should win. Also, if you can out range Snake's projectile spamming, this will work in your favor as well. If you want anything more specific than that, I'll need more details (i.e. who you play with, how their metagame changes, how you play, etc.) This is probably something that needs video critiquing for a good answer.
 

Azrealdnt

Smash Cadet
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So, a technique I found that made my ledge guarding much more effective is Mortar sliding, then instant hugging (using diagonal down away from the stage since you are right on the edge.) This prevents them from grabbing the ledge at the same time as the Mortar shell hits them if they managed to go past you and land on the stage.
 

fatmanpeter14

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 29, 2008
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Colorado
one edge hogging technique i found useful is, if you can time it perfectly, is the rpg over smash. if your oppenent rolls when he climbs up from the edge you can line him up perfectly for a smash thatll send him to kingdom come. Or you can use the rpg on the very edge before your oppenent reaches the edge and get his frames of invincibility the blast should reach just below the edge of the stage

and i am having trouble facing a good lucario because once im in the air im done, so how can i get out of lucarios air game?
 

Underload

Lazy
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This thread is my new pet project. Bluntly put, Ken Neth's Q&A is absolutely DWARFED by what T*H*O*R has done here. Some of the information is a bit outdated, so I'm going to spend a few hours every week updating and expanding on what T*H*O*R started, until we have the most ****ing beautiful FAQ + Q&A ever.

This thread will serve every function Ken Neth's served, so if you have some sort of question about Snake, ask it here instead of making a new thread.
 

$....$

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
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My question wat do u do against a Captain Falcon dont really know the matchup against him in fact i dont know it at all XD lost 2 one recently so do u have 2 camp more nades at him?
 

Turazrok

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My question wat do u do against a Captain Falcon dont really know the matchup against him in fact i dont know it at all XD lost 2 one recently so do u have 2 camp more nades at him?
Hm...
Yeah I would camp more nades at him. Set up my C4 Landmines etc to limit his speed and tilt his approaches. Try not to get juggled because he can gimp you offstage.. etc.
 

$....$

Smash Rookie
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Hm...
Yeah I would camp more nades at him. Set up my C4 Landmines etc to limit his speed and tilt his approaches. Try not to get juggled because he can gimp you offstage.. etc.
ah ok wen i waz playing captain falcon when i toss a nade he would rush over (since hes fast) and grab Snake and send me off stage and u know da rest XD how can i prevent that from happening?
 

Turazrok

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ah ok wen i waz playing captain falcon when i toss a nade he would rush over (since hes fast) and grab Snake and send me off stage and u know da rest XD how can i prevent that from happening?
C4 and Landmines.
 

napZzz

Smash Hero
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My question wat do u do against a Captain Falcon dont really know the matchup against him in fact i dont know it at all XD lost 2 one recently so do u have 2 camp more nades at him?
ftilt&shield grab

no joke
 
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