Unban IDC (proposal inside) DON'T FREAKIN CLOSE WITHOUT EXPLANATION MODS!

[metaXzero]

Let's try this again. And hopefully the mods treat this thread with respect (unlike my last IDC thread).

As is known, Infinite Dimensional Cape is banned. The main reason that got it banned was it's ability to stall and the inability to tell stalling from simply using it. And obviously, we can't have judges with stopwatches at every MK match when IDC is used.

However I have come up with a proposal that allows IDC to be used AND makes it completely unviable as a way to stall out matches.

Basically "IF A MK USES IDC IN A MATCH, THEY SHALL LOSE THAT MATCH IF THE MATCH TIMER RUNS OUT.

With this proposal, IDC can be used in matches, but no MK who's "playing to win" will dare drag out the match using it.

A few questions I've been asked several times in other IDC topics.

What happens if 2 MK's facing use IDC? :
After SCOTU's post on page 8, I've decided it'd be best if we ban IDC in MK dittos.

Isn't IDC a broken approach and defense?:
That remains to be seen. The quick banning of IDC not too long after it's discovery kept any actual tourney results and vids from happening. If IDC is truly broken even without the abillity to stall, it should be proven with results and vids, NOT assumption.

Do you want to get MK banned:
I don't think MK is to the point where any AT discovered for him will break him. So no.

Why are you so intent on trying to unban IDC?
If IDC is without a doubt broken, I SHOULDN'T be able to make a proposal to unban it. The evidence of it's brokeness should keep me from doing so. But the thing is, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF IDC BEING BROKEN (ignoring stalling). It was banned before any could turn-up. My belief is that if something needs to be is broken to the point of needing banning, their should be evidence to prove it. NOT theorycraft, EVIDENCE. Stalling has evidence, but not the other applications of IDC.

Well I guess that's my post. Any flaws or unclear points in my proposal, post them. If you ACTUALLY have evidence of IDC's brokeness besides stalling, PLEASE post it. But please, PLEASE don't post "IDC is definetely broken PERIOD", "MK doesn't need any new ATs", or any rubbish like that. This thread doesn't need that AT ALL.

And please mods. DON'T CLOSE THIS THREAD ANONOMOUSLY AND WITHOUT EXPLANATION!

........And here we............go....

 

[teh_spamerer]

Let's say a Meta player uses the IDC a single time for 2 seconds to get off the ledge once. Is it really fair that the other player can camp hardcore to run the clock out and not have to worry about losing by %?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's not just broken for stalling regardless... The main reason IDC is broken is that it lets Meta Knight attack you whenever he wants while you can't attack him at all. Do you think you can powershield his Dimensional Cape attack on reaction consistently? He's just going to spam that with the IDC used to make timing completely unpredictable (like he could do it instantly or could take 30+ seconds) if it's allowed...

 

[metaXzero]

Let's say a Meta player uses the IDC a single time for 2 seconds to get off the ledge once. Is it really fair that the other player can camp hardcore to run the clock out and not have to worry about losing by %?

The player uses IDC to go off the edge into an edgeguard? Or they use IDC to get onto the stage from a ledge? IDK which you are referring to, but I'll answer

If it's first one, ...well IDC isn't that great as an edgeguard. When you are close to the edge, it's kinda pointless and if you are far away, it's still not that great. Combine that with the chance of SDing and it's just not a great use anyway.

If it's the second one, you can't use IDC without starting on land first IIRC. So using Down-B onto the stage (even from an edge) will always be a regular DC.

To your last point about incentive to stall out MK, no character has some guaranteed way to keep MK away for 8 minutes, and MK is kinda an anti-camp character. So all I can say is kudos to people who can hold off GOOD MKs for an entire match. Of course, if it becomes a reoccurring thing...

And NO. I'm NOT saying you aren't a good MK player spamerer (you are a MK player right? I hear your name alot).

It's not just broken for stalling regardless... The main reason IDC is broken is that it lets Meta Knight attack you whenever he wants while you can't attack him at all. Do you think you can powershield his Dimensional Cape attack on reaction consistently? He's just going to spam that with the IDC used to make timing completely unpredictable (like he could do it instantly or could take 30+ seconds) if it's allowed...

You're not going to win a match by spamming IDC like that. You'll only drag out the match (which you don't want).

When using IDC as an attack, you have to wait for your opponent to be COMPLETELY open before striking (because if you attack and miss/get shielded, you'll get attacked). Playing the waiting game repeatedly throughout the match IDC is NOT going to win you a match if you hold it for minutes on end.

Also the argument "IDC is definetely broken because it turns the match into a waiting game" has no actual IN PRACTICE results. Therefor, you can't claim it's broken (unless you can present a match or something).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The theory isn't hard here. Meta Knight is GONE. Rather, he'll be doing the IDC right on top of you. What do you do to defend against it? If you shield, he just waits for your shield to break or for you to drop it. It's too fast to reasonably powershield on reaction so if you aren't already shielding you won't shield it. He won't miss; he'll just wait on top of you. There is actually one "counter", and that's jumping on a platform since Meta Knight can't gain height. So, basically, Meta Knight gets an instant win on Final Destination and can force you to jump onto a platform that is probably above him which is a huge positional advantage at essentially any time on the other stages (to be clear, he can at any time change "you are pressuring Meta Knight" into "you are at risk standing on a platform above Meta Knight"). Seriously, think about this. Meta Knight can appear on top of you with a fast attack at essentially any time. How are you not going to be completely open? It really only takes at most 2 seconds for any defenses you have up against that sort of attack to wear off, and then your only defense is to guess when he will appear. He can pick any time he wants, and if you guess wrong, he gets to have fun with your shield drop lag. You won't be guessing right more than 1% of the time if the Meta Knight is even remotely competent.

Your request for evidence is pretty silly. Let me try you. Where is your tournament evidence that Mario Bros. is a broken level? Come on, show me a high level match on Mario Bros.. You aren't going to find it because it's completely obvious that Mario Bros. is a terrible, broken level, and it would be a waste of time to produce high level matches on it and to deeply explore the stage for just the optimum way to break it. With the infinite dimensional cape, players have to master a not so easy technique and develop enough finger stamina to be able to use it repeatedly throughout a match. It's definitely possible; a few people got good enough at it to demonstrate that the technique can be fully mastered. However, most players really can't do it for enough time and with enough reliability to really be able to break the game, and it seems really silly to ask players who can produce logical approaches to the question that seem to leave no question at all to provide difficult to create match evidence.

 

[metaXzero]

@AA

And you believe that in PRACTICE (not theory, PRACTICE), MK will win the match within the time limit by repeatedly "sitting" on his opponents waiting for a DEFINITE opening (which CAN take a while unless the MK doesn't mind the guaranteed counter-attack should he do this and miss/get shielded)? -_-

We can theorycraft all we want, but in practice, the results CAN be different. That's undeniable.

And that thing about Mario Bros. Mario Bros. overcentralizes the match around chucking turtles/crabs at each other. This isn't broken, but it's not what competitive Smash is about. We play to test the mastery of characters, NOT to test our mastery in chucking overpowered crap from 1 stage at each other.

 

[Sanji Himura]

I think that SBR really got themselves in a bind. If they didn't throw it out, then it would fall upon the Tournament organizers to determine if someone is stalling intentionally, and as you well may know, determining what is stalling is a subjective thing.

I will grant you one thing though, you have a point of SBR throwing out IDC on just theroy. I would have expected them to based their decisions on tournament results and not theory.

 

[Winston]

And that thing about Mario Bros. Mario Bros. overcentralizes the match around chucking turtles/crabs at each other. This isn't broken, but it's not what competitive Smash is about. We play to test the mastery of characters, NOT to test our mastery in chucking overpowered crap from 1 stage at each other.

We can theorycraft all we want, but in practice, the results CAN be different. That's undeniable.

 

[metaXzero]

We can theorycraft all we want, but in practice, the results CAN be different. That's undeniable.

ANY vid of a match on Mario Bros. boils down to characters chucking the turtles/crabs at each other until the match ends. Like I said, that's NOT broken, but it's not what comp. Smash is about.

Of course, if their weren't any conclusive vids or anything, we COULD unban Mario Bros. to make absolutely sure though (or if we really want to chuck turtles/crabs at each other and call it a match). lol

 

[Fletch]

What happens if 2 MK's facing use IDC? :
The match is treated as if the 2 MKs DIDN'T use IDC.

Doesn't this still create a problem? If both use it at whatever point for some reason, the MK with % advantage is just going to IDC the rest of the match then.

 

[metaXzero]

Doesn't this still create a problem? If both use it at whatever point for some reason, the MK with % advantage is just going to IDC the rest of the match then.

Well I guess that's price they pay. Means that IDC is very risky to use against another MK due to the risk of giving them an incentive to stall you out.

 

[teh_spamerer]

If it's the second one, you can't use IDC without starting on land first IIRC. So using Down-B onto the stage (even from an edge) will always be a regular DC.

What I meant was the Meta Knight being on the ledge and his opponent is trying to keep him there with spaced moves and then the Meta uses IDC off of the ledge to get past him.

You can ledge hop down b. If you land on the stage with it if you hold down or down left/right and keep hitting up on the c-stick you will continue to stay inside the cape. The beginning is vulnerable but after that you're invincible.

To your last point about incentive to stall out MK, no character has some guaranteed way to keep MK away for 8 minutes, and MK is kinda an anti-camp character. So all I can say is kudos to people who can hold off GOOD MKs for an entire match. Of course, if it becomes a reoccurring thing...

There are some characters that are difficult to aggro with Meta Knight. G&W, Olimar, and Wario come to mind, possibly others. You can't just run and attack against them.

You are giving them another way to win with this rule because even if they're losing by stock or % because if the timer runs out they're going to win.

And NO. I'm NOT saying you aren't a good MK player spamerer (you are a MK player right? I hear your name alot).

Yes, I play Meta Knight

 

[MuraRengan]

Well I guess that's price they pay. Means that IDC is very risky to use against another MK due to the risk of giving them an incentive to stall you out.

That's dumb, there should still be a stalling restriction on it. This is something that a judge should decide.

 

[Dragoomba]

Personally, I don't believe that any proposal would convince tourney organizers to unban it.

Metaknight himself is constantly being debated for being banned himself. I don't think an AT that can infinately stall an already broken character should be allowed by any means.

 

[metaXzero]

What I meant was the Meta Knight being on the ledge and his opponent is trying to keep him there with spaced moves and then the Meta uses IDC off of the ledge to get past him.

You can ledge hop down b. If you land on the stage with it if you hold down or down left/right and keep hitting up on the c-stick you will continue to stay inside the cape. The beginning is vulnerable but after that you're invincible.



There are some characters that are difficult to aggro with Meta Knight. G&W, Olimar, and Wario come to mind, possibly others. You can't just run and attack against them.

You are giving them another way to win with this rule because even if they're losing by stock or % because if the timer runs out they're going to win.



Yes, I play Meta Knight

Oh. That's what you meant. Well as I said, any use of IDC. Can't really think of a way to refine my proposal further without making it impractical (i.e. setting a time limit on IDC use).

I know MK can't just rush everyone down, but the simple thing is, no character has some guaranteed way of keeping MK away for an entire match (excluding MK himself lol).

If you don't think you can deal with the possibillity of an opponent camping with the intent of doing so until the match timer runs out if you use IDC, I guess you'll just not use IDC and retain your ability to win by stock/percentage.

 

[metaXzero]

Possible Double post because I can't edit quotes

Spoiler

into my previous post

That's dumb, there should still be a stalling restriction on it. This is something that a judge should decide.

Unfortunantely, we can't have judges at every MK ditto keeping track of how long IDC is used. This is why all time limit suggestions were rejected in the old IDC thread in the MK boards.

 

[swordgard]

Possible Double post because I can't edit quotes

Spoiler

into my previous post

Unfortunantely, we can't have judges at every MK ditto keeping track of how long IDC is used. This is why all time limit suggestions were rejected in the old IDC thread in the MK boards.

You have no idea what the idc can do. It protects you during you opp invinciblity, can give you time to think, allows you to bypass any wall of projectiles without ANY risk, allows for unlimited movement. Im sorry, this should be banned. I have just played fornaxxx, who i played also in ffyf were IDC WASNT banned for non stalling purpose, everytime i threw something or he was in a bad position, he just disappeared and i could not do ANYTHING. How ******** is that? Seriously IDC NEEDS to be banned.

 

[CaliburChamp]

You have no idea what the idc can do. It protects you during you opp invinciblity, can give you time to think, allows you to bypass any wall of projectiles without ANY risk, allows for unlimited movement. Im sorry, this should be banned. I have just played fornaxxx, who i played also in ffyf were IDC WASNT banned for non stalling purpose, everytime i threw something or he was in a bad position, he just disappeared and i could not do ANYTHING. How ******** is that? Seriously IDC NEEDS to be banned.

Just spam roll dodge until he re appears again or stand on top a platform, using those 2 moves, and you will never get hit by IDC, it's more of a defensive move.

It's a bad excuse when people say IDC is used to run the timer down. It is, but so are other moves, like running away from your opponent, dodges, ledge camping, etc. If those aren't banned IDC shouldn't be banned.

 

[swordgard]

Just spam roll dodge until he re appears again or stand on top a platform, using those 2 moves, and you will never get hit by IDC, it's more of a defensive move.

It's a bad excuse when people say IDC is used to run the timer down. It is, but so are other moves, like running away from your opponent, dodges, ledge camping, etc. If those aren't banned IDC shouldn't be banned.

It still allows to bypass ANY wall of attacks, which is plain ********. Also, IDC allows you to basically controll the map, you can see if hes besides your or anything, but you can jump forever, it puts ANYONE at a defensive position, which is unfair.

 

[metaXzero]

You have no idea what the idc can do. It protects you during you opp invinciblity, can give you time to think, allows you to bypass any wall of projectiles without ANY risk, allows for unlimited movement. Im sorry, this should be banned. I have just played fornaxxx, who i played also in ffyf were IDC WASNT banned for non stalling purpose, everytime i threw something or he was in a bad position, he just disappeared and i could not do ANYTHING. How ******** is that? Seriously IDC NEEDS to be banned.

So a tourney allowed IDC to be used? Results? Vids?

We've already known about those uses of avoiding respawn invincibility (clearly not broken), giving you time to think (unproven to be broken and very risky under my proposal), and getting past a wall of projectiles (who makes a wall when it's not going to do anything? And after closing the distance, they still got to actually land the attack).

What do you mean by "unlimited movement"?

And using IDC to flee and escape a bad position (that happens in Brawl lol). The fact is, it hasn't been proven to be utterly broken (MAYBE a little annoying).

It still allows to bypass ANY wall of attacks, which is plain ********. Also, IDC allows you to basically controll the map, you can see if hes besides your or anything, but you can jump forever, it puts ANYONE at a defensive position, which is unfair.

Under my rule, holding out IDC for long periods waiting for an opening is horribly unadvisable. The longer you hold it out, the closer the match comes to ending in your loss. And while waiting, you have to make sure you have a definite opening. If you miss or get shielded (which is very well possible when your opponent is shielding and sidestepping irratically) you WILL get punished.

 

[MuraRengan]

I agree with swordgard. Anyone who has the audacity to use this tactic often would be set free from any pressure at any time they chose. That's too broken, and takes away from the actual fight. Who wants to play brawl when one player can choose to become invincible at any point in the match? That's not skill, it's heavy opportunism.

 

[metaXzero]

I agree with swordgard. Anyone who has the audacity to use this tactic often would be set free from any pressure at any time they chose. That's too broken, and takes away from the actual fight. Who wants to play brawl when one player can choose to become invincible at any point in the match? That's not skill, it's heavy opportunism.

In practice, it's unproven as broken. Until you can get some vids or some tourney results in, claims of IDC being "too broken" for w/e besides stalling are simply theorycrafting.

And you gotta remember, if they're "playing to win", their not going to be holding minute long IDCs waiting for an opening or getting out of "bad positions".

 

[swordgard]

In practice, it's unproven as broken. Until you can get some vids or some tourney results in, claims of IDC being "too broken" for w/e besides stalling are simply theorycrafting.

And you gotta remember, if they're "playing to win", their not going to be holding minute long IDCs waiting for an opening or getting out of "bad positions".

He doesnt have to hold for long, as soon as hes invicible he has complete control, if i keep jumping, he can take me anytime when im on ground, cant keep on shielding or rolling or it wears out. Allows for pretty ******** stuff(fornaxxx was the only guy who used IDC, im ics and he used it to bypass any blizzards i did and then i was stuck fleeing for my life). IDC is fast enough so you can upb out of it without the other having time to react, allowing to put anyone one a defensive stance anywhere and anytime is already broken enough. Vids and stuff? didnt get em. I took him out because he sded on last life, but mk is already good enough, he doesnt need something that makes him even better. That, would be pushing mk to the point of bannable if you let him with it. Simple as that.

EDIT: FYI, anyone playing to win WILL do that. Wait a bit to think of a strategy, while knowing your opponent cant prepare for counterattacks and you can hold that IDC for very long. Pretty ********. Doesnt make an ok metaknight broken, but certainly gives him a huge boost(seriously, fornaxxx is good, but hes not a GREAT metaknight, if kingace did this, hed be near unbeatable). And is MK not already top tier, is he not good enough yet for you or what?

 

[metaXzero]

He doesnt have to hold for long, as soon as hes invicible he has complete control, if i keep jumping, he can take me anytime when im on ground, cant keep on shielding or rolling or it wears out. Allows for pretty ******** stuff(fornaxxx was the only guy who used IDC, im ics and he used it to bypass any blizzards i did and then i was stuck fleeing for my life). IDC is fast enough so you can upb out of it without the other having time to react, allowing to put anyone one a defensive stance anywhere and anytime is already broken enough. Vids and stuff? didnt get em. I took him out because he sded on last life, but mk is already good enough, he doesnt need something that makes him even better. That, would be pushing mk to the point of bannable if you let him with it. Simple as that.

EDIT: FYI, anyone playing to win WILL do that. Wait a bit to think of a strategy, while knowing your opponent cant prepare for counterattacks and you can hold that IDC for very long. Pretty ********. Doesnt make an ok metaknight broken, but certainly gives him a huge boost(seriously, fornaxxx is good, but hes not a GREAT metaknight, if kingace did this, hed be near unbeatable). And is MK not already top tier, is he not good enough yet for you or what?

Aww...no vids

Uhhh, no it isn't. If you come out of IDC without the attack, you still have a decent amount of lag that allows your opponent to shield/dodge any sudden attack out of it. And simply holding your shield until it nearly breaks isn't an effective way to reduce chances of being hit by the IDC attack. Mixing sidesteps and rolls usually makes it very hard for MK to find an opening.

And to your point "MK is already broken enough and doesn't need this", you're basically saying that any little AT like this will push MK over the edge and all future ATs discovered for MK should also be banned because "MK is already broken enough as it is". In short, that MK IS bannable now as he shouldn't be allowed to advance his metagame whatsoever!

 

[CaliburChamp]

lol. People are stubborn. Disregard that IDC is banned and people could care less. I've done this before without people complaining, since I only use it for getting out of a bad position. It seems impossible to do it for such a long period of time, and it's the hardest AT to master. Ice Climber's chain grab is much more broken than this, but that is allowed. Just use it in tournaments, people are not going to care much about it even if it is banned from that tournament.

Ask yourselves, do people complain more about IC chaingrab or MK IDC? I don't know about you guys, but I would complain more about IC chain grabs than IDC.

 

[metaXzero]

......Just like the IDC thread in the MK boards. No one can counter my proposal and people just stop posting.

Spoiler

And where's Yuna? I askef him to review and comment on my this

Does this mean I win this discussion?

 

[Frames]

why are people still debating this lol

this isnt broken so i dont understand what the problem is

its only good for stalling and most people ban stalling anyway so even if people use this its not very effective for anything

i dont ban it and have no plans to in the future

 

[CaliburChamp]

......Just like the IDC thread in the MK boards. No one can counter my proposal and people just stop posting.

Spoiler

And where's Yuna? I askef him to review and comment on my this

Does this mean I win this discussion?

Yes. We have won this discussion. And not everything in the SBR ruleset is set in stone. Tournament organizers have the control of setting their own rules, not the SBR. And it seems like more and more people are allowing MK infinite dimensional caping in tournaments, since it's not going to cost your opponent an entire stock, there is no such thing as banning any technique that is defensive in nature that is hard to control.

 

[Affinity]

......Just like the IDC thread in the MK boards. No one can counter my proposal and people just stop posting.

Spoiler

And where's Yuna? I askef him to review and comment on my this

Does this mean I win this discussion?

No.


We countered your proposal MANY times. You just choose not to listen. No one will ever take you seriously if you continue to shrug off what people say and not listen.


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209241

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6040805&postcount=53

 

[metaXzero]

No.


We countered your proposal MANY times. You just choose not to listen. No one will ever take you seriously if you continue to shrug off what people say and not listen.


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209241

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6040805&postcount=53

Hey! It's my first IDC thread that the mods closed with no justification!

Anyway, to Youko's post about IDC (which I never got to respond to thanks to stupid thread closing); It doesn't address any problems with my proposal AND it claims that IDC (even without stalling) is broken to the point of needing to be banned WITH NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT'S BROKEN TO THE POINT OF NEEDING TO BE BANNED.

You can claim all you want that IDC is a broken approach/defense and that the inability to do anything while they are IDCing (while continuing to ignore the limited attack options, the difficulty to actually land the attack, and my proposal's discouragement of holding out long IDCs) is broken. But until you have some vids and tourney results to back it up, you are just theorycrafting.

So NO. You DIDN'T counter my proposal many times.

 

[Natch]

IDC allows you to stall the match forever. Hit them once, and then IDC for the rest of the match. You win. There is no way to counter this. This is broken. Besides that, there is nothing utterly broken about IDC.

Besides stalling, there is no reason to ban IDC. Unfortunately, as soon as you use IDC, you're stalling-if only for a little bit.

Now, I ask you a question: Suppose IDC is unbanned. How are you going to prevent players from abusing it?

It's not just broken for stalling regardless... The main reason IDC is broken is that it lets Meta Knight attack you whenever he wants while you can't attack him at all. Do you think you can powershield his Dimensional Cape attack on reaction consistently? He's just going to spam that with the IDC used to make timing completely unpredictable (like he could do it instantly or could take 30+ seconds) if it's allowed...

No. It's because you can hit an opponent once and stall the match infintely. IDC's ability to give MK a 100% safe approach is a non-factor. If you're trying to attack by doing an IDC duration "mix-up", you already in IDC. It's better to just stall instead of risk an attack.

Regardless, that abiliy to stall infinitely is enough for it to be banned.

 

[metaXzero]

IDC allows you to stall the match forever. Hit them once, and then IDC for the rest of the match. You win. There is no way to counter this. This is broken. Besides that, there is nothing utterly broken about IDC.

Besides stalling, there is no reason to ban IDC. Unfortunately, as soon as you use IDC, you're stalling-if only for a little bit.

Now, I ask you a question: Suppose IDC is unbanned. How are you going to prevent players from abusing it?





No. It's because you can hit an opponent once and stall the match infintely. IDC's ability to give MK a 100% safe approach is a non-factor. If you're trying to attack by doing an IDC duration "mix-up", you already in IDC. It's better to just stall instead of risk an attack.

Regardless, that abiliy to stall infinitely is enough for it to be banned.

You didn't read the OP AT ALL. In the future, please read the Opening Post before posting.

Though I'm happy that you don't think that IDC is broken besides stalling. <(^_^-)d

 

[ThatGuy]

Just to be clear, I'm not against swordgard here, but I feel that his statements were a tad exaggerated. And yes, there were videos recorded of his set.

swordgard vs fornax 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuZX3AuNqZc&feature=channel_page
swordgard vs fornax 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvK0weRbA2Q&feature=channel_page

Spots where IDC (more like Extended DC) were used:
Match 1: 1:02, 2:04, 3:14
Match 2: 0:10, 0:33, 1:06, 1:47, Maybe 3:05, 3:08, 4:06, 4:31

He used it a lot more frequently towards the end of the second game. He either purposely kept his IDCs short, or did not have the finger stamina to keep it up for long.

To be clear, I hosted that tournament with System Failure 333, here's the ruleset: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188011

The IDC was banned under the rule that it was considered to be a method that could be used for stalling. Fornax used it pretty offensively from what I'm seeing, and I didn't see it used for stalling purposes. Swordgard also punished him a lot out of it. Rising Pound/Wallbombing were banned in Melee under the pretense of stalling, but they were clearly allowed if they were used as methods of recovery, so that's pretty much the logic of how I applied the rule here.

If swordgard felt that he was using it for stalling, he could have paused and asked for tournament staff to monitor the match. I allow anyone who I trust to act as referee to make a ruling based on their observations of the match as it plays out. swordgard did not appeal, and thus no action was taken. I only learned of Fornax using the IDC after the tournament, but had I been watching the match I would have leaned in favor of Fornax regardless.

Anyways, that's my opinion. You now have the TO's view.

 

[Natch]

Basically "IF A MK USES IDC IN A MATCH, THEY SHALL LOSE THAT MATCH IF THE MATCH TIMER RUNS OUT."

Bad fix. If the opponent sees MK do IDC ONCE, they can stall out the match and MK will automatically lose. Worse yet is if there are TWO MK's. How will you decide who lost the match if it's an MK ditto and both players used IDC?

 

[metaXzero]

Wow. swordgard really did exaggerate his experience with IDC. I mean, it wasn't even held for 30 seconds (the maximum I've faced). Good choice of if you had known, you would rule in fornaxx's favor.

Bad fix. If the opponent sees MK do IDC ONCE, they can stall out the match and MK will automatically lose. Worse yet is if there are TWO MK's. How will you decide who lost the match if it's an MK ditto and both players used IDC?

MK's pretty much an anti-camp character. And no one has a perfect keep away method (besides MK himself lol). If you can hold a GOOD MK away for an entire match, well kudos.

And the MK vs. MK scenario; It's in the OP. Match is treated as if the 2 MK's DIDN'T use IDC (meaning you may not want to use IDC against another MK).

 

[Vulcan55]

The only reason you would IDC at all is to stall.
If stalling with it is banned, yet offensively allowed, (Besides being very awful to enforce, let alone define properly) There is no reason to IDC, since better offensive options always exist.

There really is no point in un-banning it unless, you can prove that stalling with it isn't broken (Good luck).

 

[metaXzero]

The only reason you would IDC at all is to stall.
If stalling with it is banned, yet offensively allowed, (Besides being very awful to enforce, let alone define properly) There is no reason to IDC, since better offensive options always exist.

There really is no point in un-banning it unless, you can prove that stalling with it isn't broken (Good luck).

The only tourny vids here with IDC say otherwise. And people continously claim that IDC is a broken offensive/defensive tool (lol)...

And if you read my OP (*sigh* do I have to tell everyone?), you'd know that the stalling problem is taken care of.

 

[Vulcan55]

I already did, and you give a horrid "fix".
If I were MK, I wouldn't ever use the IDC just in case, the timer did run out, I would lose. No matter how small the amount of time I used it was. Even if I used it for one second during the whole match, if the timer runs out, I lose.

Also, at your sig, IDC isn't broken offensively. In fact, it's useless. But you can't ban stalling with the IDC, without banning it altogether.

 

[metaXzero]

I already did, and you give a horrid "fix".
If I were MK, I wouldn't ever use the IDC just in case, the timer did run out, I would lose. No matter how small the amount of time I used it was. Even if I used it for one second during the whole match, if the timer runs out, I lose.

Also, at your sig, IDC isn't broken offensively. In fact, it's useless. But you can't ban stalling with the IDC, without banning it altogether.

Well it's viable unlike having judges with stopwatches everytime IDC is used. And well, that's you (other people feel otherwise). Though if you are just going to extend it by one second, you might as well do a regular Dimensional Cape.

My proposal makes it dragging out the match with IDC completely unviable. No one with a brain is going to stall using IDC.

 

[Vulcan55]

My proposal makes it dragging out the match with IDC completely unviable. No one with a brain is going to stall using IDC.

Exactly!
No one with a brain is going to try an offensively use it either.
So why un-ban it?

Also, Define: "Dragging out the match"