"Ultra Meters": Proof of Concept Query

[shanus]

If the only actionable way to do this was through ASM, that would be annoying as programming the exact means for ultra meter would be far easier done in a fighter.pac injection. That would mean the ASM code would need to monitor some variable (per character in each characters root, no easy task according to Almas/Dant) and then when the condition is met, give the character the final smash option to then trigger via button press.

Overall, a lot of work for something that would require additional excess work to balance.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's a lot of work, but it's been considered for a while. Seeing as the actual coding aspect is indeed possible, I think the first step would be to leave the "coders" alone, and focus on getting each character's final smash to the level where it is no longer obscenely broken and merely "kinda" broken. For example, FSs like Dimensional Cape or Blue Falcon would need a severe damage/knockback nerf, Landmaster would need to be completely redone (imagine it like a super combo move though... piiiiimp), Peach's FS would need a big fat size nerf and maybe an effect buff (make it blockable, but small and does damage?)... you get the idea. Warioman would need to have his invincibility removed, Gigabowser would need something similar...

 

[xDD-Master]

It should be dependent on how much damage a character takes and carry over through stocks. After all, Ultras and moves like Ultras carry over through rounds. It's pretty much only Arc Systems' games (Guilty Gear, BlazBlue) that have Super Meters not carry over through rounds.

Yeah sounds good. Combined damage, if this would be possible, I think it should...
It would be really cool.

Like I said we could just give the characters new/cool pseudo-FSes, for the ones that arent editable. More ideas.
Marth hyper Neutral-B with some cool Effect.
Ike super Neutral B with MEGA Explosion.
Luigi imba Up-B, kills at 0%.
Yoshi Exploding Egg with High DMG/KB.
Bowser FSmash with Mega Explosion (Giant Hitbox) in front of him.
Etc.


@Above: The work would be acceptable, since for example BBrawl with this Extra, would be like OMGWTFBBQ cool. We may go up to 4 Stocks then, not sure.

But anyway, it would be soooo ****in nice <3
I would love it =D

 

[Deleted member]

ehm ultra's do not transfer, only the super meter does in SF4

 

[xDD-Master]

ehm ultra's do not transfer, only the super meter does in SF4

True.

We could as well do both if its possible. Is it?
So the thing with the damage should be possible now.
Can we as well make a bar that fills like 1/20 for every hit? (Multihits count as one).
It could as wil be different for every character... lolfox vs. lolganondorf.
Fox has a super in less then a minute, ganondorf 1 at the end maybe xD
Or it may is possible to combine it with damage, for every dealed 150%you get this, Characters like Snake wouldnt get them so often, but Diddy for example.
Maybe then we wouldnt even need to make the Ultra-% different for every character, since then Ultra & Super would cancel each other somehow.
And sure we could balance them as well. Snake could have a stronger Super if the Super-% is set, but the Ultra-% differs from Chara to Chara.


So, just as an example:

Version 1:
Snake Super - When 150% dealed.
Snake Super does 40% DMG.
Snake Ultra - 200%+
Snake Ultra does 20% DMG.

Diddy Super - When 150% dealed.
Diddy Super does 30% DMG.
Diddy Ultra - 100%+
Diddy Ultra does 20% DMG.


Version 2:
Snake Super - When 100% dealed.
Snake Super does 30% DMG.
Snake Ultra - 200%+
Snake Ultra does 20% DMG.

Diddy Super - When 150% dealed.
Diddy Super does 30% DMG.
Diddy Ultra - 100%+
Diddy Ultra does 20% DMG.


Version 1 would be more SF like I think.

 

[Big-Cat]

Here's something you might want to go by then, or at least consider: From Melty Blood

Each character starts with 100% meter. Magic circut carries over from round to round.

Magic circut is gained whenever you or your opponent make contact via an attack. Each attack in the game has a static value attached to it which represents the base value of meter gained. This is multiplied by a modifier that is applied depending on the state. The multiplies and their states are as follows:

* Character attacks and hits: 1.00
* Character attacks and is blocked: 0.85
* Character gets hit by an attack: 0.30
* Character blocks an attack: 0.15

With very few excpetions, you gain no meter just by performing normals or specials. You also gain no meter from Arc Drive and Last Arc attacks, regardless of what happens. Most EX moves do not build meter either (notable exceptions are Ciel air 214C and Nanaya 236C).

When an attack is shielded, the character shielding gains 5% per hit, and the person attacking gains no meter.

Fox and Falco screw this up quite a bit considering that their lasers are easily spammable. One thing that could be done, maybe, is to make the laser properties the same as they were in 64.

 

[SmashChu]

TL;DR Version:
Final Smashes are too broken to be allowed in Competitive or even Semi-Competitive play. And if this is only for Casual play, then why go through all of this trouble hacking it into the game at all seeing as how you can just turn FS:es on as items in Casual play since it's, you know, Casual)

Marvel vs Capcom 2 has loads of infinates and only, like, 8 usable characters out of 60 something. I don't think "broken" is a limitation.

 

[Deleted member]

SmashChu, we're not trying to make the game worse than it is. that magic circuit sounds nice but is unnecessarily hard to implement.
the same goes for

Can we as well make a bar that fills like 1/20 for every hit?

for now I'd say best approach is give your character the FS is his damage is higher than a certain percentage and hasn't used it in this stock yet. (last is just putting up a flag is you use it that you reverse if the player dies)

 

[Big-Cat]

for now I'd say best approach is give your character the FS is his damage is higher than a certain percentage and hasn't used it in this stock yet. (last is just putting up a flag is you use it that you reverse if the player dies)

That seems like the best approach to me. At least once we get past this stage, we can see if we can customize the conditions or not.

 

[Yuna]

ehm ultra's do not transfer, only the super meter does in SF4

Sorry, Supers transfer, not Ultras. If you have at least 1 Super at the end of a round, you'll still have 1 Super at the start of the next round.

Marvel vs Capcom 2 has loads of infinates and only, like, 8 usable characters out of 60 something. I don't think "broken" is a limitation.

MvC2 is not Critical Hit broken. MvC2 is not Landmaster broken. In fact, MvC2 is one of the most Competitive fighting games out there, despite the limited character roster because the game doesn't revolve around just a few tactics (as would be the case if FS:es were allowed, even a kind of Super). There's a difference between an infinite which is, oftentimes situational (depending on the character) and a OHKO at 0%. Don't go there. We had this discussion 2 years ago already. Your side lost.

 

[Jack Kieser]

GAH! What's with the thread hi-jack?! Seriously, I'm going to start reporting posts that deliberately try to go off-topic; THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT FINAL SMASH BALANCE.

Re-balancing Final Smashes will be done when we come to that bridge, and will be done in another thread. RIGHT NOW, however, we're only discussing the actual technical limitations of changing how Final Smashes are awarded. Just the technical parts!

 

[Yuna]

GAH! What's with the thread hi-jack?! Seriously, I'm going to start reporting posts that deliberately try to go off-topic; THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT FINAL SMASH BALANCE.

Re-balancing Final Smashes will be done when we come to that bridge, and will be done in another thread. RIGHT NOW, however, we're only discussing the actual technical limitations of changing how Final Smashes are awarded. Just the technical parts!

Yes, because clearly if we're off topic, it's against rules. And you are the only person who gets to decide what is and what isn't on topic.

The fact of the matter is that we should discuss how FS:es are going to be balanced at the moment because I suspect re-coding how FS:es work will require a lot of work. And all of that work would be wasted unless we eventually come up with a viable way to re-balance the FS:es. Otherwise, we're just changing how they spawn. They'll still be broken as heck and have to remain off at all times except for in Casuals, so then what is the whole point of changing how they spawn?! That'd be ahours of coding work out the window for absolutely no reason.

Try to see further than your nose for once. Unless there's a good way of re-balancing FS:es, changing how they spawn won't really matter squat except be a huge waste of coding time.

 

[Big-Cat]

With that in mind, here are some ideas for rebalancing these moves (I'm no expert however), some of these are on the idea of basing them off of specials or other attacks:

Mario:
X amount of fireballs akin to Super Mario RPG's Ultra Fire, the last hit is the only one with knockback.

Luigi:
Anyone familiar with Street Fighter would probably think of taking Luigi's Super Jump and doing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMdG0DsDB7Y (Just the Shoryuken portion)

Peach:
Peach's UTilt. Like Mario's FS, ideal for above anti-air and comboing from UThrow.

Samus:
Same as before, but maybe a smaller diameter and no aiming or Zamus switch.

Fox:
I don't know if this will work, but maybe a single laser from an offscreen landmaster (think MvC2).

Wario:
Same as before, but remove the speed, invincibility, and levitation ability.

Sonic:
This is another toughie and I'm not sure if it's doable or not like my Fox idea, but maybe something similar to Critical Hit and Beast Ganon but obviously not as strong.

Bowser:
That explosive FSmash idea is a start. A fiery version of Bowser Fortress might work too.

I really want to contribute to this project so let me know what I can do.

 

[Yuna]

The most important re-balancing aspects:
* Invincibility frames must be limited to a maximum of 5-10 frames!
* They must all be blockable!
* Also, they cannot have too much shieldstun/shield-eating-away (whatever it's called) to prevent easy shieldbreaks with Final Smashes.
* They cannot be huge knockback moves! Damaging? Sure. KO moves that KO at 70% or lower? No!

 

[Big-Cat]

The most important re-balancing aspects:
* Invincibility frames must be limited to a maximum of 5-10 frames!
* They must all be blockable!
* Also, they cannot have too much shieldstun/shield-eating-away (whatever it's called) to prevent easy shieldbreaks with Final Smashes.
* They cannot be huge knockback moves! Damaging? Sure. KO moves that KO at 70% or lower? No!

Gotta agree with these. Although, how strong should the knockback be then? Something that can kill Mario at 100% (before the Final Smash), maybe?

 

[Fen__]

Yes, because clearly if we're off topic, it's against rules. And you are the only person who gets to decide what is and what isn't on topic.

The fact of the matter is that we should discuss how FS:es are going to be balanced at the moment because I suspect re-coding how FS:es work will require a lot of work. And all of that work would be wasted unless we eventually come up with a viable way to re-balance the FS:es. Otherwise, we're just changing how they spawn. They'll still be broken as heck and have to remain off at all times except for in Casuals, so then what is the whole point of changing how they spawn?! That'd be ahours of coding work out the window for absolutely no reason.

Try to see further than your nose for once. Unless there's a good way of re-balancing FS:es, changing how they spawn won't really matter squat except be a huge waste of coding time.

I hate to break it to you, but yes, the original poster does, in fact, designate the topic. If you want to discuss something other than the topic they announced, then start your own thread for the new topic. It doesn't belong here. Also, your tiny world of what you want Final Smashes to be doesn't matter. Period. The requirements for you wanting to use them isn't relevant to what the guy who started this thread is pursuing. Will most people want them balanced if this system comes to fruition? Probably. Will they necessarily agree with you in how to balance them, or even what the moves should be? Significantly less likely. Either way, those things don't matter, because that isn't what the topic is about. Period. No matter how much you want it to be, that simply isn't what this topic is for. Even if talk of balancing would cause more interest in the topic, the OP has expressed very explicitly several times now that this is not what he is requesting information on. This is the Help forum. Help the OP, or stop posting. It's that simple.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

http://wiird.l0nk.org/forum/index.php/topic,1815.msg49993.html#msg49993

~

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, holy crap, that was fast. It's good that there's a protection from two people using a FS at the same time, but does his post mean that if one player hits 100%, the other player can't receive a FS in the same manner until the first player dies?

Because we'll need to fix that.

 

[Fen__]

Although it's fine for a working version, it seems like disallowing two people having a FS should be avoided if possible. I can imagine this mechanic being exploited (damaging self to prevent your opponent from gaining his FS).

 

[Yuna]

I hate to break it to you, but yes, the original poster does, in fact, designate the topic. If you want to discuss something other than the topic they announced, then start your own thread for the new topic.

Topics tend to eventually evolve to include more than the original topic. As long as it's closely connected to the topic at hand, moderators do not mind. For example, I don't see any mods stepping in here yelling at us for not discussing things that are derivatives of the original topic. But if a mod does, I will happily move on to discuss this matter in a connected thread.

I am merely suggesting that people spare a moment to think about why they are doing this. The original thread creator has made it clear he does not wish to take part in any of the coding required for his ideas to come to fruition. And it's blatantly obvious people will require tens of hours to code this because it's an entire reworking of how Brawl works! It will also have to be done for every single character and eventually balanced for every single character (since it would be imbalanced if all characters received a Final Smash after taking the exact same amount of damage since different characters can take different amount of punishment before dying from the same attack).

So, with a projected tens of hours of workload, an important question to ask is: Why do it if we do not also rework how Final Smashes work? Why balance how people get the Final Smash unless we also balance how they actually work to change them from being completely game breaking? You'd be wasting tens of hours on an endeavor that in the end changes very little.

It's a highly relevant question to ask.

 

[[TSON]]

Obviously for someone willing to use this for practical purposes (in a codeset like B- for example) the FSs will be reworked. But if someone wants to play it in their personal codeset, nothing should be stopping them

 

[Yuna]

Obviously for someone willing to use this for practical purposes (in a codeset like B- for example) the FSs will be reworked. But if someone wants to play it in their personal codeset, nothing should be stopping them

It's not about if someone will want to use it. Face it, there's someone for everything. It's about whether or not it's worth the programmers' time and effort to do it.

 

[Fen__]

I don't see what's so difficult to grasp about this, but you keep adding your own perspective on what this topic should be to what you say it actually is. This is a post in the Help forum. The OP wanted to know to what extent his idea was possible. This is not a thread for an open community project for a new Brawl codeset that implements a new system for Final Smashes. It's just a thread to talk about (and maybe do) some very basic things dealing with how Final Smashes are acquired. That is it. Do not hijack this guy's thread for any personal purpose. If his reqeusts get answered and a basic system is created (oh, it seems there already is one on the last page; tens and tens of hours there), then feel free to make your own thread in Workshop General or the Codesets forum and start gaining interest for your balanced reworkings of all of the Final Smashes. That will be for that thread. Not this one. It isn't the topic, it isn't relevant to what the OP has asked, and it doesn't belong here.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Honestly, if I was any good at coding / knew how PSA worked / had any free time to do so outside the 10 minutes a day I have to check SWF, I'd be trying this stuff out myself. I know, though, that there are people WAY more talented than me who actually CAN do this, if they want to.

And, apparently, someone has, of his own free will.

I had no idea if someone had ever thought of re-working FS mechanics like this before, hence the thread. I am fully confident that if what's proposed here actually works, the B+/B- team might want to use it and re-balance the actual FS'es themselves (BBrawl would never go for this in a million years).

So, yeah.

 

[Akuma2120]

Someone should tell that guy that the NTSC version of the code doesn't work

 

[xDD-Master]

No one interested in this anymore? o.O

 

[Jack Kieser]

I hope so... All we have so far is the test code in this post, but it's still pretty buggy, and the NTSC version doesn't work at all.

 

[Akuma2120]

Paprika has requested the code to be ported to NTSC here: http://wiird.l0nk.org/forum/index.php/topic,3110.180.html

But no one's responded since that post

 

[xDD-Master]

I have PAL Wii / Brawl I could test it for PAL o.O

 

[Akuma2120]

I have PAL Wii / Brawl I could test it for PAL o.O

Go for it, just let Paprika know of your results so he can make it better if it needs it

 

[xDD-Master]

OK I tested it now.

It works.

You get an FS as soon as you reach 100%.

Only one player can have it per time.

And if only 1 player has the final smash, and any other player reachs 100%, the wont get any final smash as long as they dont get again below 100% and THEN again over 100%. (For Example Gaw 96%->101% (He gets Final Smash, he uses it... he attacks with Judgement: 7 -> Apple comes out, he eats it (101%->97%) he then get attacked again (97% -> 107%) he gets another Final Smash, this also is hilarous with Peach, because she can heal herself with the FS :O)

After death, you loose the FS.

You can get an FS when you deal damage to yourself (DDD Down-B, Diddy Up-B, Gaw Side-B, Snake... Link... Tink... Ike...)-


So I think I found out everything special about it.

Sadly, in game it doesnt work out fine.

Its often Like this (I played Snake vs MK for example):

MK 99%, I 99%, MK hits me, I reach 100%, get FS, UPTILT!!!1!!1!1!, MK has -1 Stock, I have FS, MK loses has invincibility and I use my FS... pretty broken.

I think Final Smash at 200% would work out better, because to live to 200% is really pro-like (And remember: DK, Bowser, DDD and Snake dont have the best Final Smashes ;P)

And its not often that both player reach 200% :O!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, like I said before, the actual percentages are arbitrary. All of that stuff is balancing, not logistics, so that can be dealt with on a developer-by-developer basis. While we're talking about it, if this has to be done with a code (and right now, that's what we have), we need to make sure the code is formatted in an easy-to-modify way, kind of like how CSS codes are formatted. Easily recognizable (and editable) variable locations and such.

Anyway, some worthwhile things to change in this particular code would be to add a variable that doesn't allow for multiple FS's to be acquired at the same percentage; for instance, if the % of FS acquisition stays at 100%, you can get a FS at 100%, heal down to 95%, get to 100% again (but get nothing), then earn another FS at 200%, etc.

 

[Big O]

I always thought the perfect way to get final smashes would be when the crowd starts cheering for you. It makes sense and I was sad there was no special brawl mode with this kind of mechanic. Obviously the cheering mechanic would have to be tweaked (like how frequently, when, and who they cheer for), but it seems like it would fit in seamlessly. It would even be cool if low tier characters like CF were extra popular to sort of balance them out. I can imagine this being a lot harder though since I've never heard of or seen any variables or whatever corresponding to what the audience does.