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[Dee Dude]

Project M and SSF2 both give and better movesets then the dev team.

No disrespect but I’m being brutally honest here.

They can’t seem to think of Sonic other then the Classic games hence the spring, and two spin dashes while the Homing Attack is the only modern move he uses and meanwhile so potential move from other games such the Axe Kick, Light Speed Dash, Sonic Tornado, Bounce, Ring Toss, etc all get neglected.

Don’t even get me started on the Wario Land hatred, so they bring back the Shoulder Bash and call it a day? Big whoop.

 

[Wademan94]

I corrected the part about Sonic’s “Long Wind Jump” it’s in Advance 2&3 not 1&2.

Also the Bound Jump Dair.

Spoiler

Having him bounce on hit and spike, with the slo-mo effect? Yooo.

Also, it’s in Battle too.

It’s called “Sonic Meteor” here but it’s literally the same thing, come on.

This is the key to a good Sonic moveset, one that encompasses a range of moves that references appearances between multiple games both Classic and Modern alike.

Right, in the case for my game ideas I have both classic and modern Sonic, modern Sonic draws from Battle along with stuff from the modern games like the stomp and homing attack while Classic draws from Fighters and classic material like the insta-Shield and drop dash.

 

[Diem]

I used to be super skinny, but now I believe I can be classified as slim thicc.

...excuse me, wat

 

[Idon]

...excuse me, wat

Do not pursue this line of questioning.

This can only go places which will lead to this thread getting locked.

 

[Zinith]

I used to be super skinny, but now I believe I can be classified as slim thicc.

That's quite a non-sequitur...

As for myself, I sometimes feel like my boi in the top-left corner here...

 

[Deleted member]

I think "ruining and destroying its value" is a bit hyperbolic...

Most mods are harmless, and in some cases, necessary. Some janky PC games are almost unplayable without fan-made mods to fix their technical issues, or otherwise improve the game on an objective level.

Some people will mutilate a game with mods to absurd extents, but I typically mod a game to:

1) Improve its graphics, with textures or other mods that usually maintain the base game's art style, just with higher fidelity
2) Fix issues with gameplay and make the game more fun (e.g. improving game balance, altering mechanics to be more rewarding, removing unfair or unfun elements, etc.)
3) Add content to the game that I wish was there, but isn't (e.g. skins in Smash that "add" new characters, guns/armor in Fallout/Skyrim that I love, etc.)

On the subject of Smash, Project M is a great, quality mod that rebalances the gameplay and adds cut Melee characters, and was even going to add some new characters before the higher-ups shut things down so they could make a version of Melee that was otherwise one of the most generic things ever.

I enjoy more tame mods most of the time, but sometimes it's fun to mash a ****ton of different mods together and see what kind of clown fiesta you can make.

It's more like putting a temporary sticker on it that you can take off at any time. Mods can be removed whenever.

I'm still not going to risk it though unless I know for certain its safe. I want my clone Zard back but not that much.

People have been hacking their Switches for a while now and Nintendo hasn't really done much. I think as long as you're not taking anything more than cosmetic changes online you should probably be fine, that's how it was during the Wii U era.

 

[Deleted member]

Project M and SSF2 both give and better movesets then the dev team.

No disrespect but I’m being brutally honest here.

They can’t seem to think of Sonic other then the Classic games hence the spring, and two spin dashes while the Homing Attack is the only modern move he uses and meanwhile so potential move from other games such the Axe Kick, Light Speed Dash, Sonic Tornado, Bounce, Ring Toss, etc all get neglected.

Don’t even get me started on the Wario Land hatred, so they bring back the Shoulder Bash and call it a day? Big whoop.

Wario has the advantage or disadvantage of having 2 main series with Land and Ware, plus you have some fun stuff with Wario World. His moveset is based on the three incarnations, and if Im being honest I feel that his Ware-self gives him a bit more independance from the Mario cast.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Okay but hear me out here, what if we just made 80% of his moves turning into a spinny ball instead?

There's a special place in hell for you and anyone who thinks this is a good idea

 

[MainJPW]

I used to be super skinny, but now I believe I can be classified as slim thicc.

slim thicc

Sounds like the stage name of a rapper.

 

[Wademan94]

Wario has the advantage or disadvantage of having 2 main series with Land and Ware, plus you have some fun stuff with Wario World. His moveset is based on the three incarnations, and if Im being honest I feel that his Ware-self gives him a bit more independance from the Mario cast.

Now if they only brought in a character original to the WarioWare series...

 

[Idon]

Project M and SSF2 both give and better movesets then the dev team.

No disrespect but I’m being brutally honest here.

They can’t seem to think of Sonic other then the Classic games hence the spring, and two spin dashes while the Homing Attack is the only modern move he uses and meanwhile so potential move from other games such the Axe Kick, Light Speed Dash, Sonic Tornado, Bounce, Ring Toss, etc all get neglected.

Don’t even get me started on the Wario Land hatred, so they bring back the Shoulder Bash and call it a day? Big whoop.

Yeah, I completely agree, but that's the thing.
Developers will never be completely in tune with what the fanbase wants. They can make assumptions and listen, but they'll never match up 1:1.

However fans? Fans know what they want, and given the means to do so will recreate their vision to the best of their ability. Project M is probably THE single best example of that dichotomy and it's unfortunate, but the only time we're getting something like that again is if a group of dedicated fans pursues that again.

Also, Sakurai's got this whole thing where he puts things in last minute and also doesn't like changing things too much alienating fans of his last-minute decisions. So if you want change, it's going to be gradual, not like Jill in MvC2 vs MvC3.

 

[Alternis]

The comments on Wario make me wonder what his moveset would have looked like had he been added in Melee. Apparently, at that time he would have been a Mario character, which I find interesting.

I just find the hypothetical scenario to be fascinating.

 

[Deleted member]

The comments on Wario make me wonder what his moveset would have looked like had he been added in Melee. Apparently, at that time he would have been a Mario character, which I find interesting.

I just find the hypothetical scenario to be fascinating.

Your pfp made my day

 

[staindgrey]

...I didn’t mind...I like popcorn.

I could never sell any except to family who bought it out of obligation.

Also I've been drinking so I'm probably dropping more ****s than I usually do. I cuss when I'm buzzed.

 

[Noipoi]

I'm just saying man, when I slouch my belly folds. That's new for me.

 

[Opossum]

Project M and SSF2 both give and better movesets then the dev team.

No disrespect but I’m being brutally honest here.

They can’t seem to think of Sonic other then the Classic games hence the spring, and two spin dashes while the Homing Attack is the only modern move he uses and meanwhile so potential move from other games such the Axe Kick, Light Speed Dash, Sonic Tornado, Bounce, Ring Toss, etc all get neglected.

Don’t even get me started on the Wario Land hatred, so they bring back the Shoulder Bash and call it a day? Big whoop.

It's been a while since I followed SSF2, but wasn't Wario largely considered one of the single worst characters in the game, in part because of the moveset changes?

 

[Idon]

It's been a while since I followed SSF2, but wasn't Wario largely considered one of the single worst characters in the game, in part because of the moveset changes?

Goddamn, there's a SSF2 meta?

Anyways being a competitively crap character's never stopped anyone from liking a moveset. After all, Little Mac exists.

 

[Noipoi]

Goddamn, there's a SSF2 meta?

Anyways being a competitively crap character's never stopped anyone from liking a moveset. After all, Little Mac exists.

Me but Incineorar

 

[Wademan94]

I could never sell any except to family who bought it out of obligation.

Also I've been drinking so I'm probably dropping more ****s than I usually do. I cuss when I'm buzzed.

Fair enough.

The comments on Wario make me wonder what his moveset would have looked like had he been added in Melee. Apparently, at that time he would have been a Mario character, which I find interesting.

I just find the hypothetical scenario to be fascinating.

Back then aside from appearances in Mario spinoffs they would’ve only had Super Mario Land 2, Wario Lands 1-3 maybe 4, Mario & Wario, Wario’s Woods, and Wario Blast: Feat. Bomberman to work off of.

 

[Opossum]

Goddamn, there's a SSF2 meta?

Anyways being a competitively crap character's never stopped anyone from liking a moveset. After all, Little Mac exists.

I just want Jolt Haymaker to be a viable recovery move, dammit.

 

[Deleted member]

The comments on Wario make me wonder what his moveset would have looked like had he been added in Melee. Apparently, at that time he would have been a Mario character, which I find interesting.

I just find the hypothetical scenario to be fascinating.

I feel that this would be a monkey paw situation and we could've gotten a Warioware Wario a la Doctor Mario as an additional character and people would just complain about it.

 

[Idon]

I just want Jolt Haymaker to be a viable recovery move, dammit.

hahaha

fairs you off-stage

 

[Diem]

Yeah, I completely agree, but that's the thing.
Developers will never be completely in tune with what the fanbase wants. They can make assumptions and listen, but they'll never match up 1:1.

However fans? Fans know what they want, and given the means to do so will recreate their vision to the best of their ability. Project M is probably THE single best example of that dichotomy and it's unfortunate, but the only time we're getting something like that again is if a group of dedicated fans pursues that again.

Also, Sakurai's got this whole thing where he puts things in last minute and also doesn't like changing things too much alienating fans of his last-minute decisions. So if you want change, it's going to be gradual, not like Jill in MvC2 vs MvC3.

It also helps that they were western and thus much more connected to the general playerbase and what the demands were, since there isn't any cultural or geographical barrier. Not that it's inherently a bad thing, as it is both the biggest blessing and biggest curse when it comes to Nintendo, but for a competitive game with such deeply technical qualities, it's particularly an issue.

By last minute additions, do you mean the ones in Melee and Brawl? Because I don't think there were too many last minute additions in Smash 4 or Ultimate. Some people say things like how Chrom was added late into Ultimate's development, but all indications say that he was planned from the beginning, and any issues he may have are more likely the result of just shoddy work by whoever is responsible.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It's been a while since I followed SSF2, but wasn't Wario largely considered one of the single worst characters in the game, in part because of the moveset changes?

Tbf from what I understand SSF's moveset philosophy is very "OMG REMEMBER THIS?!" to the point that there's no thought about how the moveset meshes with the rest of the moves so it isn't a Wario problem. I think the best example is Bandana Dee, who everyone agrees would be a spear user, only got what, a single move that actually involved a spear?

 

[Zinith]

Mario & Wario

Wasn't that a game that had Mario, Peach and Yoshi have buckets on their heads and you played a fairy that guided them to the end of a stage?

Yeah, so many ideas for Wario's moveset there

 

[Opossum]

hahaha

fairs you off-stage

Tbf from what I understand SSF's moveset philosophy is very "OMG REMEMBER THIS?!" to the point that there's no thought about how the moveset meshes with the rest of the moves so it isn't a Wario problem. I think the best example is Bandana Dee, who everyone agrees would be a spear user, only got what, a single move that actually involved a spear?

For what it's worth, I like their take on Chibi-Robo though. Not necessarily the moves' data, but the moves themselves at least make sense. But yeah their Dee is trash lol.

 

[PsySmasher]

GGs @ShotoStar!

Those were some great matches!

 

[osby]

Tbf from what I understand SSF's moveset philosophy is very "OMG REMEMBER THIS?!" to the point that there's no thought about how the moveset meshes with the rest of the moves so it isn't a Wario problem. I think the best example is Bandana Dee, who everyone agrees would be a spear user, only got what, a single move that actually involved a spear?

Yep, Wario and Sonic's new side specials are just a glorified dash attack and Fox Illusion. And Isaac's moveset is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

 

[staindgrey]

So if you want change, it's going to be gradual, not like Jill in MvC2 vs MvC3.

But who the **** wanted that change.

 

[Wademan94]

Wasn't that a game that had Mario, Peach and Yoshi have buckets on their heads and you played a fairy that guided them to the end of a stage?

Yeah, so many ideas for Wario's moveset there

I was gonna say you fight him at the end of each world, but he just flies by on his plane and you just click on him while he does nothing to retaliate so yeah you’re not wrong.

 

[Idon]

By last minute additions, do you mean the ones in Melee and Brawl? Because I don't think there were too many last minute additions in Smash 4 or Ultimate. Some people say things like how Chrom was added late into Ultimate's development, but all indications say that he was planned from the beginning, and any issues he may have are more likely the result of just shoddy work by whoever is responsible.

Last minute like say, the Melee clones, Sonic, and the proto-Echoes.
Characters that clearly had slightly less to work with in terms of time, with Sonic even causing a delay for Brawl.

To put it lightly, not everyone's a fan of those interpretations of the character. Despite that, they remained more or less, consistent, with how they've been used throughout Smash. Alterations, maybe even radical ones, but never reworks.

As for the Ultimate "last minutes," don't really even know if they're going to be changed in a significant way, kept the same, or altogether removed in whatever smash game lies in the distant future.

But who the **** wanted that change.

Capcom did.

 

[Diem]

For what it's worth, I like their take on Chibi-Robo though. Not necessarily the moves' data, but the moves themselves at least make sense. But yeah their Dee is trash lol.

Man, what were they thinking with the Haymaker change.

I also agree about Chibi-Robo. As my most-wanted newcomer next to Dark Samus, I loved how his moveset was so unique and creative, just like how Sakurai's been designing movesets for the past two games. But like you said, the data on them is kinda... eh. I also just don't like the feel of SSF2 in general. Doesn't feel nearly as smooth as regular Smash, because the animations aren't as fluid.

 

[Opossum]

Sonic's been here since Brawl and I'm still not sure what the difference between his side and down special is beyond charge time.

RIP.

 

[Lollipopped]

On the subject of modding video games, I don't think it's really a problem unless they're used in a manner that's disruptive to others. (For example, people who use item rain mods in Mario Kart on Worldwide races. **** those people.)
But yeah, modding can be really fun and creative. Stuff like Project M, CTGP and the Zelda Randomizers are just a few examples of really good ones, too. I don't think video game mods diminish the value of the source material in any way.

 

[Deleted member]

GGs @ShotoStar!

Those were some great matches!

And to you as well!

 

[Zinith]

I was gonna say you fight him at the end of each world, but he just flies by on his plane and you just click on him while he does nothing to retaliate so yeah you’re not wrong.

Man, "Mario & Wario" is such a misnomer. The two don't team up (like in Mario & Yoshi, the PAL name for the NES Yoshi game), Wario isn't in it that much, you don't play as Mario, and you don't even use Mario himself if you chose the Easy (Peach) or Hard (Yoshi) modes

 

[osby]

Yeah, I completely agree, but that's the thing.
Developers will never be completely in tune with what the fanbase wants. They can make assumptions and listen, but they'll never match up 1:1.

However fans? Fans know what they want, and given the means to do so will recreate their vision to the best of their ability. Project M is probably THE single best example of that dichotomy and it's unfortunate, but the only time we're getting something like that again is if a group of dedicated fans pursues that again.

Also, Sakurai's got this whole thing where he puts things in last minute and also doesn't like changing things too much alienating fans of his last-minute decisions. So if you want change, it's going to be gradual, not like Jill in MvC2 vs MvC3.

Project M was good at giving a specific demographic what they want: Competitive Western players who have nostalgia for old games.

Sakurai and his team actually have to juggle between different fanbases and age groups, which makes it impossible for them to reach the fanservice levels Project M has.

And you know, they actually have to make a real game, not mod a pre-existing one.

 

[staindgrey]

Capcom did.

Well Capcom can suck my ****.

#bringbackoldjill

 

[Diem]

Sonic's been here since Brawl and I'm still not sure what the difference is between his side and down special is beyond charge time.

RIP.

Same.

On the subject of modding video games, I don't think it's really a problem unless they're used in a manner that's disruptive to others. (For example, people who use item rain mods in Mario Kart on Worldwide races. **** those people.)
But yeah, modding can be really fun and creative. Stuff like Project M, CTGP and the Zelda Randomizers are just a few examples of really good ones, too. I don't think video game mods diminish the value of the source material in any way.

Well, there's a difference between modding and hacking, at least in terms of connotation. Hacking is usually synonymous with cheating, and on Nintendo platforms it's particularly bad because they don't have very robust anti-cheating measures despite how easy it is to hack their systems. It got pretty bad in Splatoon 2 last year, actually, but of course it's been bad ever since the Wii and DS, since homebrew and hacking on those systems couldn't be easier.
I totally didn't have an Action Replay code that gave me an aimbot in Metroid Prime: Hunters Wi-Fi multiplayer.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well Capcom can suck my ****.

#bringbackoldjill

I'm pretty sure old jill got kicked out after constantly throwing out keys before MvC2 matches, everyone was sick of her stealing someone's house keys and throwing them away