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[Iridium]

Rosalina is the perfect example of what happens when a playerbase loses interest in a character due to lack of appeal. She's not garbage, yet I can only name international top Rosas compared to the US.

 

[Will]

no disrespect but man you've gotta be crazy to think that isabelle side b going through shield would make her broken.

are you saying going through shield or grabbing through shield though, cause we're on different planets

 

[Deleted member]

ClaTheBae
How do you feel about ? Are they bad like everyone says they are or not?

I do not know much about .

 

[ClaTheBae]

are you saying going through shield or grabbing through shield though, cause we're on different planets

I think it should grab through shield like every other command grab. It wouldn't make her broken, it's high risk high reward. She gets hit if she misses. The range on her fishing rod isn't that much more than samus' grab, and that's less punishable than isabelle's rod.

ClaTheBae
How do you feel about ? Are they bad like everyone says they are or not?

I do not know much about .

no idea, but I couldn't see them being bad. But I don't think they're top tier or anything

 

[Idon]

no disrespect but man you've gotta be crazy to think that isabelle side b going through shield would make her broken.

Bro, a long-range command grab that hits below ledge, air-OK, goes through shield, grabs on the way back, travels in an arc through the air, doesn't clang off of attacks, and has a generous hitbox would be insane.

 

[Will]

I think it should grab through shield like every other command grab.

Uh, no thank you padre.

Other command grabs are actual grabs, this is a long-range fishing rod. Even if it only didn't touch shields at all and just laid there while you shielded, that's a guaranteed hit because you either let go of shield and get hit, roll and get hit, or break shield and ****ing die.

 

[Deleted member]

Bro, a long-range command grab that hits below ledge, air-OK, goes through shield, grabs on the way back, travels in an arc through the air, doesn't clang off of attacks, and has a generous hitbox would be insane.

Wait, is this thread saying Isabelle's side b is broken?
It is wack, but I do not think it is a fantastic tool.

 

[Deleted member]

Who is your bottom 5 in this game? it can either be by how effective you think they are or or how bad you are at playing them
For me, I think the worst characters are:

From my experience it's



Bowser Jr: Bowser Jr is pretty bad to be honest as he was already pretty garbo in Sm4sh but they nerfed him even more for Ultimate. Still though PsySmasher can kick my *** with Bowser Jr as their Bowser Jr is very clean.

Mii Brawler: All the Mii's except for Swordfighter are pretty bad but Mii Brawler is just terrible as his Combo's are pretty bad and his speed is pretty mediocre.

Ryu: High Effort, Little Reward. So Far Ryu just doesn't have the results to outweigh how much effort you have to put into him when Ken is right there, Both are pretty hard to master but Ken is Ryu 2.0 and if you want to use one of them the obvious choice is Ken. High effort, Little reward and Ken being Ryu 2.0 is pretty bad for the dude.

Kirby: There's nothing obviously terrible with Kirby from my experience but his Speed and Combo's if you take a closer look, are pretty bad. Kirby just doesn't have the skills to be Mid to even High tier it's kinda sad but Kirby has always been Bottom tier since Smash 64.

Little Mac: Awful Recovery but Decent ground game. Little Mac has the worst recoveries in the game and having a good recovery is an absolute MUST if you want to be anything above Mid tier, Though Mac's ground game is admittedly pretty good it doesn't matter if you're very gimp-able and have a terrible recovery. Plus Mac is very easy to read if you know what you're doing.

 

[Will]

Wait, is this thread saying Isabelle's side b is broken?

someone needs a valuable lesson in the art of context clues

 

[Deleted member]

For , I do not think he is bottom five because of how he plays. can actually be an oppressive character.
A big reason, perhaps the main reason is that nobody really wants to play BJ. Same case with , actually.
If people played BJ, BJ would not be bottom or lower mid tier as everyone says he is.

is not a bottom tier character by the way, she has an Ike/Palutena nair and her Luma is still strong.

( Coming from a person who never really plays BJ, but has faced them a few times. )

 

[Idon]

Wait, is this thread saying Isabelle's side b is broken?
It is wack, but I do not think it is a fantastic tool.

No, read the thread before you post.

We're saying if it went through shields would it be broken.

 

[Deleted member]

Who is your bottom 5 in this game? it can either be by how effective you think they are or or how bad you are at playing them
For me, I think the worst characters are:

Seeing Sheik be this bad feels weird to me.
Honorable(?) mention goes to because he feels slow, janky, and generally ineffective but maybe I just don't know what his deal is.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Seems like Spike Lee cosplayed as Waluigi at the oscars this year

 

[Deleted member]

No, read the thread before you post.

We're saying if it went through shields would it be broken.

Ahhh. I do not think it would be fantastic, but it would make Isabelle's side b a lot more dangerous.

 

[Just a penguin]

For , I do not think he is bottom five because of how he plays. can actually be an oppressive character.
A big reason, perhaps the main reason is that nobody really wants to play BJ. Same case with , actually.
If people played BJ, BJ would not be bottom or lower mid tier as everyone says he is.

is not a bottom tier character by the way, she has an Ike/Palutena nair and her Luma is still strong.

( Coming from a person who never really plays BJ, but has faced them a few times. )

Well, as a player of , I would say that he is at disadvantage with both rushdown characters and characters with reflectors, so there aren't many good matchups.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, as a player of , I would say that he is at disadvantage with both rushdown characters and characters with reflectors, so there aren't many good matchups.

BJ is not good, but BJ has potential is what I am saying.
The main reason why BJ is considered to be in the bottom tier is because of his small playerbase.

 

[TheMightyP]

If you had to ask me, Isabelle isn't really comparable to the perceived bottom 5. She has combos, she can kill, she has a great air game as well as a godly edgeguarding game, and her ground game isn't too shabby. The issue is how inconsistent her attacks are. Up Smash occasionally doesn't work properly, F-Smash and D-Smash have terrible range, F-Smash is terribly laggy for no reason, Down B sometimes activates, sometimes doesn't, and it can get destroyed by something as weak as Mario's Down Tilt, the back throw of Fishing Rod is terrible, and it wonky when it hits shield, her rolls are hot garbage.

Like if all of those got fixed, solid-mid tier or higher. It's not like Kirby or Mac where she needs a massive rework so that she could be good, all she needs is consistency.

 

[Deleted member]

Isabelle’s side-b is fine as it is. It trades being countered by shields for being safer than all other command grabs and being effective in the air. Stuff like her jab is what needs buffs, buffing her side b I think would just be going a bit overboard.

 

[ClaTheBae]

Bro, a long-range command grab that hits below ledge, air-OK, goes through shield, grabs on the way back, travels in an arc through the air, doesn't clang off of attacks, and has a generous hitbox would be insane.

Uh, no thank you padre.

Other command grabs are actual grabs, this is a long-range fishing rod. Even if it only didn't touch shields at all and just laid there while you shielded, that's a guaranteed hit because you either let go of shield and get hit, roll and get hit, or break shield and ****ing die.

I see what y'all are saying and it's made me rethink my position on it, but I still believe it should be treated like a regular grab. Though I doubt nintendo would add that anyway so no point in even thinking about it

From my experience it's



Bowser Jr: Bowser Jr is pretty bad to be honest as he was already pretty garbo in Sm4sh but they nerfed him even more for Ultimate. Still though PsySmasher can kick my *** with Bowser Jr as their Bowser Jr is very clean.

Mii Brawler: All the Mii's except for Swordfighter are pretty bad but Mii Brawler is just terrible as his Combo's are pretty bad and his speed is pretty mediocre.

Ryu: High Effort, Little Reward. So Far Ryu just doesn't have the results to outweigh how much effort you have to put into him when Ken is right there, Both are pretty hard to master but Ken is Ryu 2.0 and if you want to use one of them the obvious choice is Ken. High effort, Little reward and Ken being Ryu 2.0 is pretty bad for the dude.

Kirby: There's nothing obviously terrible with Kirby from my experience but his Speed and Combo's if you take a closer look, are pretty bad. Kirby just doesn't have the skills to be Mid to even High tier it's kinda sad but Kirby has always been Bottom tier since Smash 64.

Little Mac: Awful Recovery but Decent ground game. Little Mac has the worst recoveries in the game and having a good recovery is an absolute MUST if you want to be anything above Mid tier, Though Mac's ground game is admittedly pretty good it doesn't matter if you're very gimp-able and have a terrible recovery. Plus Mac is very easy to read if you know what you're doing.

I agree except for kirby. Kirby was one of the best characters in smash 64 and in this game he has combos. Forward throw to forward air works at a few percentages higher than most throw combos do. Grounded down air > up tilit > nair also is pretty reliable. Down tilt is a good approach tool and can trip. And as of 2.0.0, dash attack is a kill option. Running up smash is also pretty reliable and he has a lot of kill power and range behind his forward air.

Not to mention, he can duck under a lot of moves and punish pretty easily, so anyone who is trying to force a grab off will get hit for it

 

[Crooked Crow]

ClaTheBae
How do you feel about ? Are they bad like everyone says they are or not?

I do not know much about .

Ken is faster than Ryu, from my understanding, and that makes him a bit better.

 

[Deleted member]

BJ is not good, but BJ has potential.

People said the same thing about Shulk in Smash 4 and I don't recall him ever being able to climb out of low tier despite his incredibly dedicated playerbase.

 

[Will]

Ahhh. I do not think it would be fantastic, but it would make Isabelle's side b a lot more dangerous.

I see what y'all are saying and it's made me rethink my position on it, but I still believe it should be treated like a regular grab.

isabelle's side b goes through shields, what do you do?

roll away? well that does nothing if not just resets the situation to happen again

jump at isabelle? well you're gonna get hit if you try to approach so why bother

counter? i don't know man you just absolutely love tier lists and has no counter

reflect? well we just established that had no reflect

Tell me, o' wise Isabelle overlords.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree except for kirby. Kirby was one of the best characters in smash 64 and in this game he has combos. Forward throw to forward air works at a few percentages higher than most throw combos do. Grounded down air > up tilit > nair also is pretty reliable. Down tilt is a good approach tool and can trip. And as of 2.0.0, dash attack is a kill option. Running up smash is also pretty reliable and he has a lot of kill power and range behind his forward air.

Not to mention, he can duck under a lot of moves and punish pretty easily, so anyone who is trying to force a grab off will get hit for it

As a player of , this makes me happy.
's up tilt is also a good combo starter, keep that in mind. also has a decent air combo game.
is not bottom tier in my opinion.

 

[Idon]

What I'd personally do is 1. Give Isabelle smashes that don't take forever to come out, and 2. Make her down B detonatable on command.

 

[Deleted member]

What I'd personally do is 1. Give Isabelle smashes that don't take forever to come out, and 2. Make her down B detonatable on command.

This actually works.

Also thread, let's play this game.

How can we change so that he becomes good or atleast mid tier? I never really played in Smash 4 nor Ultimate.

 

[Deleted member]

This actually works.

Also thread, let's play this game.

How can we change so that he becomes good? I never really played in Smash 4 nor Ultimate.

1) Give him a better recovery

 

[TheMightyP]

If anything on Isabelle needs a buff, it's jab. It's supposed to be a quick, low range combo starter that sucks at lower percentages but becomes useful higher up, but the only thing it can kill confirm into is D-Tilt or D-Smash (which kinda sucks). Like, it should have more hitstun at higher percentages so it can combo into things like grab, U-Smash, F-Smash, and the such.

 

[Deleted member]

People said the same thing about Shulk in Smash 4 and I don't recall him ever being able to climb out of low tier despite his incredibly dedicated playerbase.

Shulk was always the middle of the mid tier. Have you not seen the last Smash 4 tier list?

 

[Will]

This actually works.

Also thread, let's play this game.

How can we change so that he becomes good or atleast mid tier? I never really played in Smash 4 nor Ultimate.

all he needs is recovery

and by that i mean let him use side b again if he gets hit out of it because literally every other character can do that except him

 

[LetterO]

What I'd personally do is 1. Give Isabelle smashes that don't take forever to come out, and 2. Make her down B detonatable on command.

She can detonate the down B on command.

This actually works.

Also thread, let's play this game.

How can we change so that he becomes good or atleast mid tier? I never really played in Smash 4 nor Ultimate.

Make Side B not be lost once being hit out of it. Make Up B go a bit higher too I guess?

That's about it.

 

[Pakky]

So ya know picking stage formats I don't want and input lag makes this game kinda poo.

I rather wait an hour for a stage format I want as opposed to fighting someone on an Omega stage.

I would rather wait an extra year for any more content if it meant fixing online.

Every time I play this gets on my nerves, For Glory was by function better because at least I didn't have to deal with garbage rules that aren't fun.

Personal note

Buff him just a little. he's got better tools than

But when you whiff, My god that's it.

Reflect shouldn't be trash. has a big goofy hitbox that makes no sense, give that.

 

[TheMightyP]

If you had to ask me, Mac will never be good as long as his aerials are trash. If he ever gets up in the air, it's over for him, because he can't contest with other aerials, and he REALLY can't land. Fixing his side-b is like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound, it helps a bit, but the main problem is still there.

 

[Deleted member]

I want to test something, can y'all guess who this Character is supposed to be?

 

[Deleted member]

having a good recovery is an absolute MUST if you want to be anything above Mid tier

all want to have a word with you.

 

[Idon]

She can detonate the down B on command.


Make Side B not be lost once being hit out of it. Make Up B go a bit higher too I guess?

That's about it.

Ah, well then make it proc faster on command.
Basically turn it into a trap Snake USmash.

If you had to ask me, Mac will never be good as long as his aerials are trash. If he ever gets up in the air, it's over for him, because he can't contest with other aerials, and he REALLY can't land. Fixing his side-b is like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound, it helps a bit, but the main problem is still there.

IMO, they should make Mac have good aerials, but not in the way that he'll stay in the air a ton. Make them similar to Fox fair or Marth nair where they have a large hitbox that drags the enemy into the ground so he can do his strongest attacks.

 

[Crooked Crow]

This actually works.

Also thread, let's play this game.

How can we change so that he becomes good or atleast mid tier? I never really played in Smash 4 nor Ultimate.

Little Mac is different than other characters in Smash, he forces you to play his game- learning this is part of the matchup. His fundamentals and set-ups work completely differently than everyone else. I used to think he was garbage, the worst character in the game, but I don't think that's the case any longer. That being said:

I would allow him to SideB again after being hit out of it the first time- it's still too susceptible to gimps and edgeguards. I would also enable his UpB to be angled, a lot of the times I was pitifully close to the ledge and couldn't snap to it.

DTilt should combo into stuff like it did in Smash 4- it's kind of hard to set up anything in neutral with him if your opponent tries to camp or wall you out.

Perhaps his aerials should have a little more knockback? I get punished for landing them half the time. I feel like if we change Little Mac too much, the boxer will be absurdly good.

 

[Deleted member]

all want to have a word with you.

Well I meant a Recovery that actually works, Those characters do have a bad recovery but at least they Can recover. Unlike Mac.

 

[Deleted member]

Well I meant a Recovery that actually works, Those characters do have a bad recovery but at least they Can recover. Unlike Mac.

's recovery is about the same or even worse than 's recovery in terms of making it into the stage, but at least can cheese someone hard with that recovery.

Edit: too. ( Except can not really cheese someone with his recovery as well as can. )

 

[TheMightyP]

Well I meant a Recovery that actually works, Those characters do have a bad recovery but at least they Can recover. Unlike Mac.

Cloud's and Chrom's are just as bad. Cloud relies on his limit which may or may not be available to him if he got knocked of the stage, and Chrom can't recover horizontally at all. And unlike both of them, Mac's doesn't stop his momentum completely, since he can slightly move with his Up-B

 

[Opossum]

's recovery is about the same or even worse than 's recovery in terms of making it into the stage, but at least can cheese someone hard with that recovery.

Chrom's recovery is absolutely not worse than Little Mac's, as someone who plays both.