Ultimate Bowser MU Analysis and Discussion

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah, I'm anxious to test this as I'm almost positive this change went in after the E3 demo where Bowser saw the most play (not seen him played nearly as much with the full roster available due to the sheer number of choices).

Honestly, it explains all the bizarre moves we thought were being tough-guyed in the E3 build. Pika's F-Tilt, Cloud's Jab. They were always being armored when Bowser was in the middle of an F or D smash. But armor on tilts is definitely news to me, and not something I had noticed in E3 demo footage.

Here's some great 1v1 footage vs K Rool: Also, nair -> fair kill confirm?: https://youtu.be/yD-cwnqHxBU?t=113

That's what I'm anticipating. N-Air > B-air and N-air > U-air should be very feasible as well. N-air to B-Air was barely a true kill combo against Sheik at tight % ranges in 4 as I recall. But in Ulitmate, Bowser has five frames shaved off his jumpsquat and five frames shaved off the N-air landing lag. Plus he just rises faster on his standard jump which is another universal change that will help him get in range quickly for a followup.

So I expect to be seeing some starfish combos from you guys when the game drops. It really feels like characters with usually weak combo games will be able to do some exciting stuff in Ultimate. And if your falling N-air gets blocked, just Side B them.

 

[S_B]

Honestly, it explains all the bizarre moves we thought were being tough-guyed in the E3 build. Pika's F-Tilt, Cloud's Jab. They were always being armored when Bowser was in the middle of an F or D smash. But armor on tilts is definitely news to me, and not something I had noticed in E3 demo footage.



That's what I'm anticipating. N-Air > B-air and N-air > U-air should be very feasible as well. N-air to B-Air was barely a true kill combo against Sheik at tight % ranges in 4 as I recall. But in Ulitmate, Bowser has five frames shaved off his jumpsquat and five frames shaved off the N-air landing lag. Plus he just rises faster on his standard jump which is another universal change that will help him get in range quickly for a followup.

So I expect to be seeing some starfish combos from you guys when the game drops. It really feels like characters with usually weak combo games will be able to do some exciting stuff in Ultimate. And if your falling N-air gets blocked, just Side B them.

I feel like Bowser's side b is going to be the core of his game. It's SO damn fast...

But I've not seen much armoring of things from E3 except for tough guy things.

I've yet to see a tilt armor anything, TBH. Do we have any footage of that yet?

 

[PyroBowser]

Is there any video footage of super or heavy armor on tilts?

 

[S_B]

Is there any video footage of super or heavy armor on tilts?

As near as I can tell, no.

And I've seen little in regards to his smashes aside from his up smash and f smash.

Either these SA frames have next to nothing for duration or maybe that datamined tip isn't actually in the game.

Fake said he'd be trying the SA out in a video later on. Let's see if he delivers.

 

[Action Kazimer]

Man, that gameplay vs K Rool was so satisfying to watch. Our dude is looking nasty, armor or no.

 

[Kerthorok]

This confuses me because I KNOW I've seen Bowser get knocked out of smashes and tilts up until now...unless this tip is describing a change that was made after the E3 demo...?

I also desperately want to know if this is implying SA only activates at lower % or not.

This is phenomenal news if true. I was just thinking about how BS it is that KRool has SA on some of his attacks (price tag and all) and DK has them on some of his, but Bowser has no SA on anything, despite literally wearing a huge, armored shell and having diddly squat for a projectile game and needing to get in to do any real work.



It will hinge entirely upon how many frames of SA he gets per attack and if they can actually be used to any real effect.

TBH, if the SA has been there on his tilts and smashes since the E3 demo, I've seen it matter very, VERY little.

This appears to indicate that it has no problem working over 100%. https://gfycat.com/ComposedNextAmericanwarmblood

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

I don't know how I feel about Bomb having a spike hitbox. Isn't that actually.. Worse ? If they get hit by this hitbox, they'll just bounce off the stage as seen against King K. Rool, whereas our previous hitbox would just kill them off the top.

Anyways Bowser actually looking really good, they uploaded an other video if you want to see it, Bowser VS Isabelle :

https://youtu.be/kmb0VbYj3Ek

Lots of Nair combos here... Its looking like Bowser's best aerial now. Nair to fair looks true even at high percent, Nair to bair at low percents...
Get them with one Nair and they're in for a ride... Bowser does so much damage.

Edit: looks like grounded Bomb doesn't spike though, so that's good.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I don't know how I feel about Bomb having a spike hitbox. Isn't that actually.. Worse ? If they get hit by this hitbox, they'll just bounce off the stage, whereas the normal hitbox would just kill them off the top.

Anyways Bowser actually looking really good, they uploaded an other video if you want to see it, Bowser VS Isabelle :

https://youtu.be/kmb0VbYj3Ek

Lots of Nair combos here... Its looking like Bowser's best aerial now. Nair to fair looks true even at high percent, Nair to bair at low percents...
Get them with one Nair and they're in for a ride... Bowser does so much damage.

I think the idea of the Bowser Bomb spike hit box is that it will knock you down to the ground and immediately blast you up to the sky. A two hit combo. If I remember correctly spikes can't be tech'd this time around? So maybe it will work as intended. I don't really remember.

Edit: Wait I guess not. Looks like they hit the ground and just bounce away. Maybe it is a nerf mid air now.

 

[S-bow64]

Amazing informations/work everyone!

So they may have tweaked Bowser a little since the first release of the game but my god Side-b is incredibly fast especially the aerial version (compared to before) and the range seems really good. On the video against K Rool he was even reeling back to throw his crown when he got grabbed, that's amazing.

They may have tweaked the U-throw because of the 3 frames jump squat, if they decided to keep it like Smash 4, no one could have been able to dodge it at kill % as it would give us much leniancy to follow-up the DI. I personally didn't want that throw back to be honest, I like Bowser being a neutral based character and it seems he finally have the tools to be just that.

I have a feeling that Nair is going to be a really precious tool, the ability to cross-up thanks to multi-hit and low endlag, pressure shields, guarranted follow-ups as well as kill confirms is invaluable. That move is going to make us shine I feel.


On a side note, I think F-throw to dash attack may be true at low % (really low) because of the angle, could be good to test it out when possible.


EDIT: I meant B-throw to Dash attack but some follow-up on F-throw still might be possible at low %.

But never mind that. So I came across this video, an old one and surely most of you saw it but there's a little thing I spotted that made me jump.

This : https://youtu.be/jYDJS0F5B8Y?t=125 (Thank you Zapp for the advice)

You gotta watch it real slow, after side dodging Bowser land on the ground, Cloud just finished his Dash attack and then try to Dash grab but Bowser F-smash right at that moment and didn't get grabbed.

I don't want to get too hopeful but I swear if there's invincibility on F-smash start-up I'm gonna cry. It might be hitboxes switching positions and whatnot since Bowser was facing left in the first place or Cloud Dash grab having poo range but still, he was on him. Maybe someone could give some light to that sequence ? because if that's a thing, then we could get those 5 frames of glory during Up-B start-up. (I wish)

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

Great work everyone! I'm really liking what I'm seeing with Nair.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hr9-j4QcHFs

Boozer vs DK match

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

EXCUSE ME BOWSER HAS A JAB LOCK NOW???
https://youtu.be/njpkR-wC_OI

Dude... Bowser looks really good!! I'm getting excited. Oooh. I know he's probably still gonna be bad compared to other characters but just watch all those matches, especially the DK one... His mobility buffs, this amazing Nair and this damage output, the range on Side B, those Jab lock combos, his cheer survivability.. No.. He can't be bad.. Right?

 

[Kerthorok]

Bowser vs DK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr9-j4QcHFs Fire Breath looks usable in neutral when spaced correctly. Can we talk about how Bowser lived a max rage up tilt from DK at 165%? https://youtu.be/hr9-j4QcHFs?t=126 Even with the 33% rage nerf from 4 this is pretty ridiculous.

I think the idea of the Bowser Bomb spike hit box is that it will knock you down to the ground and immediately blast you up to the sky. A two hit combo. If I remember correctly spikes can't be tech'd this time around? So maybe it will work as intended. I don't really remember.

Edit: Wait I guess not. Looks like they hit the ground and just bounce away. Maybe it is a nerf mid air now.

It's definitely going to be a lot worse to do it mid air over the stage. However it does make it a lot scarier when grabbing ledge with it. The grounded version looks like it works the same as in 4 on a level surface: https://youtu.be/njpkR-wC_OI?t=18

 

[S-bow64]

Jab locking look insane, since Jab 2 already send opponent at the perfect angle ( Fair as well as low % B-throw) combine with the fact that it has almost no endlag, the lock might as well be guaranteed. Then we could fast fall Nair to pivot grab or any aerial. The damage racking is looking real sick.

But is it me or is jab lock weaker ? Mario was getting up quite fast here, that's a shame.

In the DK video, I see that Bowser can lift the Fire more quickly now just like in Brawl. The spike hitbox on Down-B is indeed a nerf but it seems to be effective only during the descend so the initial hitbox might be the old one (might be why Mario flew so high in that video)

https://youtu.be/TEgfLwqxffU?t=237 you can see it right there.

Also : https://youtu.be/TEgfLwqxffU?t=60 Uair is either faster or the hitbox is lower than before. Was it always like that ?

 

[S_B]

These are making me more optimistic than cautious for a change, but I want to see Bowser not getting overwhelmed against the likes of Sheik and Young Link before I get truly excited.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Don't get TOO hype about Upthrow. You can do some combos off it at like 0-20% but that's it. Will have to focus on other techniques to succeed as him.

 

[Darches]

https://youtu.be/hr9-j4QcHFs?t=41
I'm seeing a sideB not kill at 155%... Overall Bowser looks great though.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

https://youtu.be/hr9-j4QcHFs?t=41
I'm seeing a sideB not kill at 155%... Overall Bowser looks great though.

Was it staled? and to be fair it is versus DK. This move KOs at like 120% fresh on most characters from my testing.

 

[Kerthorok]

Don't know if you guys have read this yet, but there's a post in General Discussion with landing lag lists and invincibility properties. Looks like Bowser has a couple returning invincibility properties and some new ones as well: https://smashboards.com/threads/lan...rame-data-thread-training-mode-tested.464174/

One miscellaneous thing that was indicated in it is that Bowser has the same FH and SH height as Mario. However most people have been saying Bowser jumps lower in Ultimate. This doesn't make any sense since in smash 4, Mario had a higher jump height than Bowser and it has been indicated that Mario has a higher jump height in Ultimate than he did in 4. So one of these two assertions is wrong.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Was it staled? and to be fair it is versus DK. This move KOs at like 120% fresh on most characters from my testing.

Mario Jump height in Training stage:
Short hop: 1.7 squares.
Full hop: 3.5 squares.
Double jump: 7 squares.

Bowser instead:
Short Hop: 1.7 squares
Full Hop: 3.4? squares.
Double Jump: 6.5? squares.

It's hard to tell with Bowser because of the position of his feet. Their jump heights are very similar, but Mario's full hops might be a tad bit higher.

 

[Kerthorok]

Mario Jump height in Training stage:
Short hop: 1.7 squares.
Full hop: 3.5 squares.
Double jump: 7 squares.

Bowser instead:
Short Hop: 1.7 squares
Full Hop: 3.4? squares.
Double Jump: 6.5? squares.

It's hard to tell with Bowser because of the position of his feet. Their jump heights are very similar, but Mario's full hops might be a tad bit higher.

My question is this: Is Bowser's jump height really shorter than smash 4?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

My question is this: Is Bowser's jump height really shorter than smash 4?

For a more testable example... Short hop Upair barely doesn't hit someone on the top platform of battlefield.
Full Hop Dair makes bowser barely land on the top platform of battlefield. 50% of his body is over the platform after a full-hop.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Could our new Jab lock be a result of Jab's damage getting nerfed?

 

[S_B]

Could our new Jab lock be a result of Jab's damage getting nerfed?

I'll take nerfs like that all day, thanks...

 

[Kerthorok]

Could our new Jab lock be a result of Jab's damage getting nerfed?

Actually I think it's due to the "stickiness" property of jabs in Ultimate. They changed jabs so that they pull opponents in instead of sending them away until the last hit of the jab combo. This had two effects: first it made it so all rapid jabs actually connected their hitboxes properly, and second it pretty much killed jab follow ups. This however is another side effect as I've seen several characters capable of pulling off jab locks in Ultimate. Jab locks were nerfed in Ultimate from 4, so they're not as broken, but hey extra damage is extra damage.

The weight chart for Ultimate is out. Looks like Bowser is in fact heavier in Ultimate. 130 -> 135: http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Weight

 

[S_B]

The weight chart for Ultimate is out. Looks like Bowser is in fact heavier in Ultimate. 130 -> 135: http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Weight

He edged out KKR by 2 units.

I had a feeling that might happen, but if any character was going to have a shot, it was KKR.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

He edged out KKR by 2 units.

I had a feeling that might happen, but if any character was going to have a shot, it was KKR.

I'm more surprised that Incineroar is a super but not Snake lol
Long live King Koopa as the supreme heavy though. I'm happy they made him even heavier in Ultimate, and not by a negligeable amount. The survivability of this fella..

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChjucv7ojJO8yPYgNPDTqvA

I'm just posting the channel. I asked them to post more Bowser content, and they keep uploading. Latests are Bowser vs Sheik, and Link.

 

[NYCheesecake]

I have about 2 days of bowser played now, i can test some **** with him if you guys want. Looking at maining him in ultimate since i always wanted to main bowser in melee, and this is the best way i'd guess to improve, similiar to S4 bowser which i haven't played but you guys "propably" have so leech that info.

Edit: If you guys hang in some bowser discord link it too.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Kerthorok Dε√ilj∦o

Please edit your posts if there hasn't been a new post since your last instead of making double posts. I know you're both excited to bring up new info as it comes, but it helps to keep things less cluttered.

 

[S-bow64]

Mhh, it's good to have these video but I don't feel like they bring much at this point or at least they don't awe me as much as before.

What I'd personnaly want are the properties of Bowser's moves like armors, intangibility, all that stuff. I'm super excited but it's really the waiting game now.

So I'm trying to think about stuff we know and there's a little bit of stuff that have my attention :

- I think Fire Breath is good now, useable good. I don't know about the start-up but the ending lag seem to have been cut a good amount, enough to make it relatively safe and if it's faster then we can use it more. The shifting is also faster, that's the one thing I hated in Smash 4. The non flinching hitbox is still there though. It could be a good poking tool I feel.

- I also wonder if the range on Side-B is any different in the air, it always seem to have greater reach in the air. But still I can't get over the fact that it is Frame 6, it's Up-B speed.


I really just want to chat about what we know while waiting for more concrete informations. Brainstorm time ?
(Still gonna look for video though)

 

[Kerthorok]

Fair beat out Sheik's Bouncing Fish: https://youtu.be/s0KnkyZ8daI?t=74 Fire Breath at pointblank range and was able to follow up with Jab: https://youtu.be/s0KnkyZ8daI?t=82 Armoring through Sheik's F Tilt with Up Tilt: https://youtu.be/BJQLlAYaKBU?t=114.

Also Kurogane Hammer's Air Speed Chart is now out, and it looks like Bowser has been given a sizable buff: 1 -> 1.155, putting him on par with the likes of Sheik and Cloud. http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/AirSpeed

 

[S_B]

I have about 2 days of bowser played now, i can test some **** with him if you guys want. Looking at maining him in ultimate since i always wanted to main bowser in melee, and this is the best way i'd guess to improve, similiar to S4 bowser which i haven't played but you guys "propably" have so leech that info.

Edit: If you guys hang in some bowser discord link it too.

I'd love to see more armor in action.

Fair beat out Sheik's Bouncing Fish: https://youtu.be/s0KnkyZ8daI?t=74 Fire Breath at pointblank range and was able to follow up with Jab: https://youtu.be/s0KnkyZ8daI?t=82 Armoring through Sheik's F Tilt with Up Tilt: https://youtu.be/BJQLlAYaKBU?t=114.

Also Kurogane Hammer's Air Speed Chart is now out, and it looks like Bowser has been given a sizable buff: 1 -> 1.155, putting him on par with the likes of Sheik and Cloud. http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/AirSpeed

Aerial fortress seems to have invincibility on startup as it beat out bouncing fish and Bowser took no damage.

And I guess I didn't imagine Bowser's airspeed buff after all...

Also, am I alone in thinking that FD has waaaay too much crap going on in the background now? It's like some Star Trek space anomaly happening back there...

 

[Kerthorok]

I'd love to see more armor in action.



Aerial fortress seems to have invincibility on startup as it beat out bouncing fish and Bowser took no damage.

And I guess I didn't imagine Bowser's airspeed buff after all...

Also, am I alone in thinking that FD has waaaay too much crap going on in the background now? It's like some Star Trek space anomaly happening back there...

This might open up the possibility of using it as a combo breaker.

 

[S_B]

I have about 2 days of bowser played now, i can test some **** with him if you guys want. Looking at maining him in ultimate since i always wanted to main bowser in melee, and this is the best way i'd guess to improve, similiar to S4 bowser which i haven't played but you guys "propably" have so leech that info.

Edit: If you guys hang in some bowser discord link it too.

Also, on a general note, what's the fastest method of unlocking characters?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Also, on a general note, what's the fastest method of unlocking characters?

Playing with 8 people is the fastest. The more players = more challengers. Think it's 1 every 2 matches if you play 4p.

I also got them really fast once my friends left by playing with a "no items lv9 CPU" ruleset by myself. Also every 2-3 matches or so. However 1v1 humans with items was very slow.

Classic also makes one appear right away, but that mode is slower (but very fun).

If you fail to beat them (The lv9 CPU was buffed significantly, it gimps you and does ledge steal bairs), there's a "rematch" mode thing in the single player menu where you get a second try.

 

[S_B]

Playing with 8 people is the fastest. The more players = more challengers. Think it's 1 every 2 matches if you play 4p.

I also got them really fast once my friends left by playing with a "no items lv9 CPU" ruleset by myself. Also every 2-3 matches or so. However 1v1 humans with items was very slow.

Classic also makes one appear right away, but that mode is slower (but very fun).

If you fail to beat them (The lv9 CPU was buffed significantly, it gimps you and does ledge steal bairs), there's a "rematch" mode thing in the single player menu where you get a second try.

So would 1-stock 1v1 CPU work, you think?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

So would 1-stock 1v1 CPU work, you think?

I have no idea exactly how this game determines it. A friend of mine tried that on easy CPU and it was very slow. Maybe it has to do with game-time x players or with the difficulty... or something. It took me 2 days of constant playing so it's not that bad.

Spirits/Story mode is a bad idea, though.

The characters apepar in totally random order, too. Could get your favorite ones right away if lucky.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

So... How well did Bowser transition from 4 to Ultimate for you guys?

All Bowser lost is the Up Throw combo and kill confirm potential, autocancel on Side B, and the power behind down Tilt... That's all.
And in exhange he got: more weight, faster air speed, more Heavy armor and added super armor to some moves, a jab lock, overall way faster movement with the standardisation of Jumpsquat and dashes, aerial landing lag reductions, a real, actually usable Fire Breath, an almost OP upgrade to Flying Slam being faster and having amazing range, an overall better Neutral game with his good dash dance, Fire Breath and Neutral aerial, the later being an amazing combo to kill tool and shield poke... and probably other stuff I missed.

I don't know guys. I think Bowser is better than in 4 overall in my opinion.

Also, just a minor aesthetic change I want to share:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njpkR-wC_OI&t=60s
At 1:05, you can very, very briefly see Bowser's new walking animation. He walks in a more straight manner, and his body doesn't awkwardly faces the camera like in 4. 4's walking animation was still present in Bowser's reveal at E3, that's why I noticed this new walking animation here, which I haven't seen anywhere else yet. I love it, it looks way better!

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I have no idea exactly how this game determines it. A friend of mine tried that on easy CPU and it was very slow. Maybe it has to do with game-time x players or with the difficulty... or something. It took me 2 days of constant playing so it's not that bad.

Spirits/Story mode is a bad idea, though.

The characters apepar in totally random order, too. Could get your favorite ones right away if lucky.

Wait, how is Fire Breath good now? The meme is dead!

 

[S_B]

Bowser is looking better than he ever has, but again, we need to wait for the meta to develop before we start deciding his tier placement.

The levels of aggro he can display now, however, are nothing shy of awe inspiring.

Wait, how is Fire Breath good now? The meme is dead!

Yep, and another thing I thought of to test: does Bowser have better control of movement during flying slam than in the demo? I heard he had very little control and always dies first and the opponent pops out, meaning enemies that can recover can try to take you over the edge deliberately.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Bowser is looking better than he ever has, but again, we need to wait for the meta to develop before we start deciding his tier placement.

The levels of aggro he can display now, however, are nothing shy of awe inspiring.



Yep, and another thing I thought of to test: does Bowser have better control of movement during flying slam than in the demo? I heard he had very little control and always dies first and the opponent pops out, meaning enemies that can recover can try to take you over the edge deliberately.

Mmh? I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere claiming that opponents now lose their stock first and that the control is the same as 4.