Ultimate Bowser MU Analysis and Discussion

[Zapp Branniglenn]

We're going to need a thread for a topic that is basically painful to discuss but it needs to be mentioned...

We need to test which characters can recover to the stage after being carried over the edge by flying slam.

And it gets worse, because different stages are different heights, meaning that every single legal stage could have a completely different spread regarding which characters can make it back to the stage and which cannot.

We have characters like Villager, Isabelle, D3, etc. who are basically guaranteed to make it back regardless of stage choice, but other characters like Sheik, ZSS, etc. can make it back to some stages after being Bowsercided, but not all of them.

So yeah, I'd test this in my free time, but I don't have much free time to speak of. :\

You could use the original thread for now. Can't imagine recoveries or blast zone distances have changed very much. And there's no custom moves to worry about either.

 

[B!squick]

Do we even NEED to that anymore though? Unless you're at super high percent and they're at super low percent, I'd probably want the damage and stage control over the mutual destruction 99 Klaws out of 100. Bowsercide was needed because it was pretty much the only real threat Bowser had, but now that he's actually, dare I say, GOOD... why do it?

EDIT: Not saying it's useless info, but you can probably guess who can recover from it anyway. KKR. DDD. Villager. Isabelle. Snake and Link if they haven't used C4 and Bomb respectively. That's... it? Pikachu, Pichu, Pit, and Dark Pit maybe.

I mean, the list of characters who wont survive is far longer. I would like to know if Inkling can get back though. inb4theygetnerfed

 

[S_B]

Do we even NEED to that anymore though? Unless you're at super high percent and they're at super low percent, I'd probably want the damage and stage control over the mutual destruction 99 Klaws out of 100. Bowsercide was needed because it was pretty much the only real threat Bowser had, but now that he's actually, dare I say, GOOD... why do it?

EDIT: Not saying it's useless info, but you can probably guess who can recover from it anyway. KKR. DDD. Villager. Isabelle. Snake and Link if they haven't used C4 and Bomb respectively. That's... it? Pikachu, Pichu, Pit, and Dark Pit maybe.

I mean, the list of characters who wont survive is far longer. I would like to know if Inkling can get back though. inb4theygetnerfed

Much of this will hinge on blast zone floors vs. stage height, and that varies a lot.

It'll be good to know for cases where Bowser is at a much higher % but can push them off stage and grab them to end both stocks while he's behind.

 

[B!squick]

I don't think there's THAT much variety in stage floor height. It's been a while (a loooong while) since I've seen the list for Sm4sh, but I don't recall stage affecting who can recover. Let's see though........

.... Well, I thought there was a list anyway. I remember someone tested it... I think.

Oh god. There's so many stages and so many characters... and you'd have to do the Battlefield and Omega versions of them too just to be thorough. D:

I'm just going to assume they can't unless they're one of the super recoverers. I just don't have the patience to check that.

 

[ZIO]

So my friend plays the Belmonts.

They are very hard to deal with because when I'm not fighting to wean myself in past the projectiles, I have to battle the whip and then he runs and that whole thing has to be done again.

What do you do when battling Belmonts?

 

[B!squick]

Same thing you do with any projectile spammer. Shield until you can get close. Also keep in mind Firebreath does some crazy damage now. Also also Tough Guy works better when you're crouched and Bowser can crawl, so keep that in mind.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

How do you guys feel about the Ganondorf matchup...?

It was a pretty good Matchup in 4, but with Ganondorf's changes and how terrifying he is now, I'm actually starting to have big trouble against them.
A Flame Choke follow-up is inevitable on us even if we tech, Wizard Kick is much faster and hard to react to in neutral if we try to bait them to approach, Ganondorf's aerials are hard to punish on shield, and we get Spiked to the Shadow Realm if we're offstage.

Any thoughts or personal experience?

 

[Darches]

Ganondorf was already a close matchup in Sm4sh because his buffed Flame Choke beat a lot of our options and landings, even occasionally grabbing us out of Whirling Fortress. And it was a guaranteed dTilt followup unless we teched backwards, but that could be read and punished even harder with an fSmash. Wizard Kick was good for almost guaranteed punishment against Fire Breath.

So Ganondorf's biggest buff in this matchup is safe aerials; what changes did we get to counterbalance that? Maybe Fire Breath is more effective now? I always short hop and angle it upwards to catch opponent's short hops. This WOULD work well against Ganondorf's poor mobility but MUST land or you'll eat a wiz foot. Maybe try armored up-angled fTilts if he's spamming aerials, then when he decides to be grounded threaten him with your own aerials or tomahawks. Ultimately this matchup will probably be very read based. Bowser has the better neutral but Ganondorf more reliable and extreme power. If our recovery is still decent and the overall speed boost isn't too severe, you should be able to mix up high and low recoveries and not always get booted, since Ganondorf is way slower than Falcon.

 

[S_B]

So it's come to my attention that some characters (thus far Falco and Falcon) have a chance to die at the same time as Bowser when he takes them over the edge of a stage via flying slam, taking the match to a sudden death.

Don't have time to test further, but it happened to me and Falcon on Wario Ware so it's definitely possible.

 

[B!squick]

Thank goodness really good characters like, I don't know, Chrom can't guaranteed suicide kill you off stage with little effort- oh wait...

Like, really Nintendo?

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Throwing out a ton of nairs in neutral isn't a bad strat honestly

 

[S_B]

Throwing out a ton of nairs in neutral isn't a bad strat honestly

True, though I wish nair had a bit higher priority.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Anyone else struggle against Zelda?

 

[S_B]

Anyone else struggle against Zelda?

I've actually yet to encounter a Zelda, but I can totally see her being a PITA due to the way he moveset is designed.

 

[Yonder]

Throwing out a ton of nairs in neutral isn't a bad strat honestly

It does combo well into fair and bair....nice neutral tool with such a big hitbox too and multiple hits. It's probably my go-to in neutral also tbh. Fair is probably his best aerial overall though. Dair is his only eh/situational one.

 

[Manonymous]

It does combo well into fair and bair....nice neutral tool with such a big hitbox too and multiple hits. It's probably my go-to in neutral also tbh. Fair is probably his best aerial overall though. Dair is his only eh/situational one.

I personally use footstool and dair against CPU level 9 and it works. Maybe not against humain, I don't have the Nintendo Online Service (NOS) yet.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Anyone else struggle against Zelda?

Zelda's always been interesting. I never thought the matchup was even in the last game, but it wasn't ever very far in Bowser's favor because her lightning kicks will always sweetspot if she buries her foot inside Bowser's body. This also appears to be the case with Ridley's Skewer, it's honestly hard not to sweetspot Bowser with these attacks. This is because that stronger hitbox is the highest priority ID for the attack. Marth's tipper is the opposite scenario, the sourspots are the highest priority. So you know you're dealing with a novice Marth when they claim large characters are easier to tip. They're not.

Lightning kicks are deadly, but shielding them is still effective. Aerials in general have severely reduced shieldstun and pushback in this game, and you can pretty freely shieldgrab it as bowser due to his excellent reach. There's no spacing in which she could hit bowser's shield and be out of grab range. And I'm pretty sure that wasn't a guarantee in Smash 4 so it's a buff to the matchup. Shield jump Side B unfortunately doesn't work since Bowser rises over her low profile as she lands, though I do think that move has a lot of potential as a block punish. Fortress out of shield is also guaranteed but if damage is all you want from your punish, Dthrow will give you a little more than grounded Fortress. Fortress is best when you suspect you're getting crossed up. Lightning kicks also don't autocancel, so if you manage to block one from a player using it immediately as they rise in a short hop, that's an Fsmash punish or whichever move you want.

 

[B!squick]

Remember when we use to discuss each match-up one by one? Could you imagine doing that with this game?

"Alright, it's year 3 since the game's release and we're finally half way through the cast, pre-DLC. Great work, gentlemen."

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Zelda's always been interesting. I never thought the matchup was even in the last game, but it wasn't ever very far in Bowser's favor because her lightning kicks will always sweetspot if she buries her foot inside Bowser's body. This also appears to be the case with Ridley's Skewer, it's honestly hard not to sweetspot Bowser with these attacks. This is because that stronger hitbox is the highest priority ID for the attack. Marth's tipper is the opposite scenario, the sourspots are the highest priority. So you know you're dealing with a novice Marth when they claim large characters are easier to tip. They're not.

Lightning kicks are deadly, but shielding them is still effective. Aerials in general have severely reduced shieldstun and pushback in this game, and you can pretty freely shieldgrab it as bowser due to his excellent reach. There's no spacing in which she could hit bowser's shield and be out of grab range. And I'm pretty sure that wasn't a guarantee in Smash 4 so it's a buff to the matchup. Shield jump Side B unfortunately doesn't work since Bowser rises over her low profile as she lands, though I do think that move has a lot of potential as a block punish. Fortress out of shield is also guaranteed but if damage is all you want from your punish, Dthrow will give you a little more than grounded Fortress. Fortress is best when you suspect you're getting crossed up. Lightning kicks also don't autocancel, so if you manage to block one from a player using it immediately as they rise in a short hop, that's an Fsmash punish or whichever move you want.

It's really approaching Zelda that is giving me the most trouble. I'm experimenting with just getting in Zelda's face and just waiting to see what she does once I am there. Will try to see if I can land some big hit punishes on any aerials, but the Zelda I am playing (he's a guy who beat me at locals so I want to make sure I have his number for the future) uses a lot more jabs/tilts when I am up close.

Do you guys think this match is easier with a platform or final destination?

 

[arkag]

Remember when we use to discuss each match-up one by one? Could you imagine doing that with this game?

"Alright, it's year 3 since the game's release and we're finally half way through the cast, pre-DLC. Great work, gentlemen."

Ahahaha, that's great. Let's start now. If Nintendo sees it, maybe they'll give SSBU an 6 year run like Brawl...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser's Dsmash armor begins on the frame you release from a charging state, so that's cool. Usmash is two frames from release, with invincibility activating three frames after that. These moves are like psuedo counters.

 

[Kerthorok]

Amazing discovery regarding dair's autocancel thanks to Stealth Pilot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVFNYhqjY-A

 

[S_B]

Bowser's Dsmash armor begins on the frame you release from a charging state, so that's cool. Usmash is two frames from release, with invincibility activating three frames after that. These moves are like psuedo counters.

That reminds me: do getup attacks vary in damage from character to character? I've not looked into how that works...

Amazing discovery regarding dair's autocancel thanks to Stealth Pilot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVFNYhqjY-A

That could be insanely handy at low %...

I'm noticing that Nair combos are a bit iffy. It seems like Nair knockback may have been more consistent prior to the day one patch because the videos of Brian's Bowser showed us some great Nair combos, but I rarely see those replicated in tournaments due to just how sporadic Nair's knockback seems to be.

It feels like it'll send enemies in a semi-random direction, and the KB on Nair is in no way set so it starts to send enemies too far away to followup in most cases. Granted, they're still possible here and there, but without consistency, it's hard to make this tool do as much for us as it could/should and we've seen what happens when Bowser players fish with Nair (ie. it gets punished...a lot).

Am I imagining this, or did Nair seem more consistent pre-day one patch?

 

[Yonder]

Falco MU is so frustrating. If you ever end up offstage, your stock is gone. Falco will get that dair spike everytime. But the onstage game is very doable.

Sorry I don't have more insightful input, but I just don't know what to do when I'm offstage vs falco in disadvantage except pick a good and pray. Because dair is basically 100% guaranteed vs a predictable recovery vs Bowser, not to mention dair prioritizes right through the hitbox of up b.

That reminds me: do getup attacks vary in damage from character to character? I've not looked into how that works...



That could be insanely handy at low %...

I'm noticing that Nair combos are a bit iffy. It seems like Nair knockback may have been more consistent prior to the day one patch because the videos of Brian's Bowser showed us some great Nair combos, but I rarely see those replicated in tournaments due to just how sporadic Nair's knockback seems to be.

It feels like it'll send enemies in a semi-random direction, and the KB on Nair is in no way set so it starts to send enemies too far away to followup in most cases. Granted, they're still possible here and there, but without consistency, it's hard to make this tool do as much for us as it could/should and we've seen what happens when Bowser players fish with Nair (ie. it gets punished...a lot).

Am I imagining this, or did Nair seem more consistent pre-day one patch?

Has to be placebo. Bowser was untouched by patches and not listed in patch notes. Maybe people are DI-ing more?

Nair is insanely useful regardless as we all know. It sets up into bair on bigger bodies for kills or damage. I am guilty of approaching with it too much also though. What else can he realistically use besides fair and maybe flames?

 

[S_B]

Falco MU is so frustrating. If you ever end up offstage, your stock is gone. Falco will get that dair spike everytime. But the onstage game is very doable.

Sorry I don't have more insightful input, but I just don't know what to do when I'm offstage vs falco in disadvantage except pick a good and pray. Because dair is basically 100% guaranteed vs a predictable recovery vs Bowser, not to mention dair prioritizes right through the hitbox of up b.





Has to be placebo. Bowser was untouched by patches and not listed in patch notes. Maybe people are DI-ing more?

Nair is insanely useful regardless as we all know. It sets up into bair on bigger bodies for kills or damage. I am guilty of approaching with it too much also though. What else can he realistically use besides fair and maybe flames?

I wish Nair had a bit higher priority hitbox than it does. It's unsafe on landing on shield and while it does decent damage if multiple hits connect, it gets beaten out by a LOT of aerials.

Not sure why Bowser's limbs mysteriously turn into tissue paper during the move.

Speaking of Falco, it was during a tourney match against Falco that I observed Nair losing to every aerial Falco threw out (someone else's match).

Maybe Nair's consistent knockback only happens if you land dead center on the opponent. Maybe it's at least something we'll learn to read over time because Nair gave me hope for Bowser's future more than anything else: it was something other than a read or a throw followup that could lead to a KO for Bowser, something more than just raw fundamentals.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

N-air's inconsistent knockback is because the arm and leg hits have wildly different knockback values. Ideally you use the move enough in advance to land with your hands, which sends them into the legs. I was hoping they'd equalize the knockback values between limbs in this game for consistent followups, but I didn't anticipate certain changes to the engine that would potentially make the attack into a new Uthrow in terms of combo starting - which is the danger in balancing a move like this one around Bowser's obscenely strong followup options. I guess it'd be an Ike Nair at that point but with way more damage potential on the move itself. But it is a hard move to just throw out in neutral, especially hard to justify when we have longer range attacks to choose from.

Falco MU is so frustrating. If you ever end up offstage, your stock is gone. Falco will get that dair spike everytime. But the onstage game is very doable.

Sorry I don't have more insightful input, but I just don't know what to do when I'm offstage vs falco in disadvantage except pick a good and pray. Because dair is basically 100% guaranteed vs a predictable recovery vs Bowser, not to mention dair prioritizes right through the hitbox of up b.

Hmm, at that point I'd just recover high or horizontally into him rather than aiming for the ledge. We're punished much less for doing that now, and you need to be doing something at least a little predictable in order to be within reach of his boot. He's a slow character that can't cover horizontal space as well as vertical space, thus recovering up into the ledge is making it easier on him to aim.

 

[Darches]

Eh, Bowser has always been about the fundamentals (unless you were just spamming pivot grabs like everyone else). Mix up your approach with sideB's and edgeguard the hell outta that bird. Falco's recovery is linear and one good bAir is all you need. If you need priority to beat other aerial attacks uSmash and up-angled fTilt are your friend. I still don't have Ultimate so I'm only speaking from Sm4sh experience.

 

[S_B]

N-air's inconsistent knockback is because the arm and leg hits have wildly different knockback values. Ideally you use the move enough in advance to land with your hands, which sends them into the legs. I was hoping they'd equalize the knockback values between limbs in this game for consistent followups, but I didn't anticipate certain changes to the engine that would potentially make the attack into a new Uthrow in terms of combo starting - which is the danger in balancing a move like this one around Bowser's obscenely strong followup options. I guess it'd be an Ike Nair at that point but with way more damage potential on the move itself. But it is a hard move to just throw out in neutral, especially hard to justify when we have longer range attacks to choose from.


Hmm, at that point I'd just recover high or horizontally into him rather than aiming for the ledge. We're punished much less for doing that now, and you need to be doing something at least a little predictable in order to be within reach of his boot. He's a slow character that can't cover horizontal space as well as vertical space, thus recovering up into the ledge is making it easier on him to aim.

If they do buff Bowser, I like that they can tweak the knockback values on Nair and potentially make it more consistent for followups as a buff instead of just giving him back throw followups.

I don't want Bowser to become overly centralized around Nair, but you really can't centralize around a move that's so punishable.

 

[B!squick]

Oooo, I like that DAir trick...

 

[Darches]

Couldn't he do that in Smash 4? It's not really a trick, the game is just forgiving your endlag due to the fact that your laggy attack never had even a single active frame, a testament to it's lagginess.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

In Smash 4 the move transitioned to it's landing state, forcing landing lag but also the landing hitbox. So Bowser's could combo break in very specific circumstances. The game's code always mentioned there being auto cancel frames on D-air's windup but every aerial with a landing hitbox would have its landing state overwride the autocancel state. They fixed that for Ultimate, inadvertently removing the combo break potential.

Not a huge loss, since it was only really relevant for a few tiny combo ranges on spammy attacks. Like Mario's Utilt and Dthrow, which are aren't a problem anymore anyway.

 

[Darches]

Oh, I didn't know about that. It doesn't sound like it was a bug though. It was probably changed for consistency or something.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

UltimaLuminaire Is it alright if I create a new MU analysis thread? One that is only focused on discussing matchups and compiles the important notes in the OP in a well structured format. The weakness in this thread, as with the similar thread we had in Smash 4, is that none of the good stuff ever got saved into an easy to read format. So there was never incentive to lab stuff out when it likely won't reach other people. Plus this thread also doubles as a "competitive impressions" sort of thread so it's largely unfocused on individual matchups. Even more so when you notice the first half of the pages are pre-release impressions that no longer matter. I wouldn't want to do the weekly format other sub forums do though. Discussing one matchup at a time often leads to no participation when talking about underplayed characters, and non-productive whining when talking about overplayed or high tier characters. So all matchups should be in open discussion.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Zapp Branniglenn Go for it.

 

[TeamChevy86]

Just wanted to throw this out there, since this last page had some discussion about Bowser's n-air...
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...tent_combo_starter/?utm_source=reddit-android

It's definitely a janky attack. It has wonky hitboxes and three stages of knock back. This guy did the ground work for it's combos already. The move viewer is super handy to see what the hitboxes are doing

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Anyone else find Bowser's pivot grab to be much worse in this game? I really cannot spam those on aerial approaches as I could in smash 4.

 

[Darches]

New pivot grab. Now with balance. All characters can now escape and punish late-grab-followup strings via jumping. In theory anyway. Reminds me of Fantasy Strike (not that I've played that either...).

Update: Ver 2.0.0 Bowser

Jab:        Increased power.
fTilt:      Increased power.
dSmash:     Extended launch distance.
upB:        Made it easier to hit multiple times.
Final Smash & FS Meter:        Crouching opponents will now be launched the same as standing opponents.

 

[S_B]

Surprised we're not discussing this more.

Anyone had a chance to test to see if up b links better now or has fewer cases of people falling out?

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Pushblock has been testing it and it seems to link all hits better. , mostly the grounded version. The aerial one seems to be unchanged.
Other than that, we got a sweet +1% on our Forward tilt, and downsmash has now cemented itself as being our best Smash attack and move to punish with.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Surprised we're not discussing this more.

Anyone had a chance to test to see if up b links better now or has fewer cases of people falling out?

Yes, somebody caught footage of one scenario in which is works better.