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Ultimate Bowser MU Analysis and Discussion

meleebrawler

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ESAM's tier list...

> Wario is top tier because he got the universal jumpsquat buff down from 6 frames in 4
> so that he can make better use of his "awesome aerials"
> Bowser is low tier despite getting by far the biggest buffs in mobility out of any character, jumpsquat was an abyssmal 8 frames, and arguably has aerials as good as Wario's
> "B-but yeah hes faster and people say hes good but I DONT SEE WHY they're freaking out he's just Smash 4 Bowser slightly better without any combos!!"

I like Esam and I know his opinions are strange and thats the charm to him but come on man.
Feels like it's just taking a long time for it to sink in that the hang-ups heavies have had to deal with regarding mobility and attack fluidity have been largely mitigated, making them vastly better without huge changes to their moves or relying on gimmicks. It's why K. Rool is perhaps getting more competitive hype than is warranted at this stage; the idea that the other heavies can be good with their current movesets seems outlandish to most.
 

Kerthorok

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Feels like it's just taking a long time for it to sink in that the hang-ups heavies have had to deal with regarding mobility and attack fluidity have been largely mitigated, making them vastly better without huge changes to their moves or relying on gimmicks. It's why K. Rool is perhaps getting more competitive hype than is warranted at this stage; the idea that the other heavies can be good with their current movesets seems outlandish to most.
I'm looking forward to taking advantage of Bowser being underrated once I start going to tournaments.
 

S_B

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Feels like it's just taking a long time for it to sink in that the hang-ups heavies have had to deal with regarding mobility and attack fluidity have been largely mitigated, making them vastly better without huge changes to their moves or relying on gimmicks. It's why K. Rool is perhaps getting more competitive hype than is warranted at this stage; the idea that the other heavies can be good with their current movesets seems outlandish to most.
Yeah, KKR has a different set of strengths than other heavies and he plays very, VERY differently as a result, but that doesn't mean other heavies aren't going to do well.

I have a feeling people are sleeping on all of the heavies this time around, even D3, who also got massive buffs.

If they can fix Bowser's side+B (and I highly suspect they will), he's going to be much higher than low tier...
 

S-bow64

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Is this Esam stuff for real ? Did he really said that ?

So did he forget the part where Wario have to wait a whooping 10-8 seconds to get his bike back of all things ( the only tool he got for a decent recovery which is also his biggest pressure tool)

Yeah can't wait for top tier Yoshi and jigglypuff maybe Wolf too since he got Sheik's Fair, gotta love that aerial speed.

It's like these people can't see the bigger picture. It's too soon for a TL anyway, you can really only make an educated guess of character placements but that sounds like clickbait or thoughtless rambling.

I have a feeling people are sleeping on all of the heavies this time around, even D3, who also got massive buffs.

The Gordo stick 100 % of the time now, this is the reason I'm going back to DDD by the way coupled with the fact that you can inhale everything. I played him a lot in Smash 4 but only for fun, now he looks really good.
 
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UltimaLuminaire

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Try not to overthink early impressions from personalities in the smash community. Esam also insn't intending to dump on Bowser so much that he feels Bowser players must play harder in order to overcome his expectations. That's not an issue since I know many of you plan to push Bowser anyway.
 

S_B

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Try not to overthink early impressions from personalities in the smash community. Esam also insn't intending to dump on Bowser so much that he feels Bowser players must play harder in order to overcome his expectations. That's not an issue since I know many of you plan to push Bowser anyway.
If there's anything we've learned from SSB history, it's that there's no point in gauging anything until the combos have been optimized.
 

S_B

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So I'm 90% sure Bowser got his groove back, in that he now has more control than the opponent.

Tested it on training mode and Bowser's input wins out.
 

S-bow64

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Try not to overthink early impressions from personalities in the smash community. Esam also insn't intending to dump on Bowser so much that he feels Bowser players must play harder in order to overcome his expectations. That's not an issue since I know many of you plan to push Bowser anyway.
Yeah I know, I've seen it long enough to know not to pay too much attention to that. They just say stuff and then shrug it off when they see they were wrong but no harm done, just surprised they can't see Bowser's potential from all that.


Oh I finally played smash a moment ago while going to work (I take the bus), did classic mode with Mario and unlocked Sonic. Can't believe I have to unlock Bowser ahah. The only thing I don't like is that I can't Nair or Jab with the stick, that disturb me. I know it was confirmed somewhere but I still prayed it was false uurrh.

Well it's here now, time to work guys.
 

S-bow64

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So the back hit of U-tilt combo into Up-B at low-mid % for 36% and so does U-throw into Up-B. That's neat.

If Bowser land on a platform during his spin after Side-B, he has no lag and can run right away. but good luck doing it, not that it have any apparent usefulness.

I can't believe I'm saying this but Bowser feels a little too fast, damn gonna walk all game just to have precise movement ahah.
 

Kerthorok

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So I'm 90% sure Bowser got his groove back, in that he now has more control than the opponent.

Tested it on training mode and Bowser's input wins out.
I second this. I've been playing against lvl 9 CPUs and the control feels no worse than it is in Smash 4.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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Beginning Line
We now face more MUs than any iteration of Smash before. Bowser will face all manner of foes, DLC or no. This is a place to discuss and analyze MUs in general. Should the occasion call for it, specialized MU discussion will occur. These discussions will be linked in the OP.
 
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S_B

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I'll need more time but my initial reaction is that he's better, but something about the way he handles still feels more awkward than it should.

I may just need to break my SSB4 Bowser habits still...
 

S-bow64

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I'll need more time but my initial reaction is that he's better, but something about the way he handles still feels more awkward than it should.

I may just need to break my SSB4 Bowser habits still...

I don't know if any of you feel the same but it seems that he can't change direction as much as before in the air. Like I do a Fair with attack stick and go back right away but I can't break the momentum while other characters can.

And I might repeat myself but he feels way too fast (not really a bad thing but it's weird) but that might be me not getting used to the new game yet.
 

V0LuG

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Bowser is a powerhouse in this game lol, really underrated for now. He’s just scary in neutral with his amazing dash dance. I’m having so much fun as him, might even join the Bowser club lmao.
 

Dε√ilj∦o

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I don't know if any of you feel the same but it seems that he can't change direction as much as before in the air. Like I do a Fair with attack stick and go back right away but I can't break the momentum while other characters can.

And I might repeat myself but he feels way too fast (not really a bad thing but it's weird) but that might be me not getting used to the new game yet.
For some reason I'm having a really hard time pulling off Bairs too tbh.
 

Rocketjay8

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Bayo mains on discord says that she has bearly any safe options now except for her smash attacks. Her up aerial sends people horizontally instead of vertically, she has a hard time killing, and the team made sure that Bayo didn't benefit at all from the new mechanics in this game.

Basically, she's smash 4 Shiek with twice the lag and with slow mobility.
 

Dε√ilj∦o

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Alright after playing a lot online I can say that Bowser is ****ing insane, I haven't lost a single match, he's so fast, so scary, he does so much damage, recovering isn't even an issue for him because he's faster in the air and Fortress is still decent, jesus christ I've never felt like I was playing the absolut beast King Bowser in my life more than right now, this is the best Bowser we've got and it just blows Smash 4 Bowser out of the window

Yes I know I'm overhyped but good lord is he GOOD right now. It'll get tougher once people figure out other characters that can get Bowser into trouble, but right now he's not even a truck, he's a aircraft carrier
 

Darches

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Does the directional air dodge make it easier to recover without being gimped every time? Does it extend recoveries? I just played a few theoretical matches in my mind (too poor, no Switch yet) and this game is fun as hell. Smash 4 will be forgotten quickly. The removal of air dodge spam makes it easier to punish reads, especially with Bowser's newfound speed.
 

Kerthorok

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Does the directional air dodge make it easier to recover without being gimped every time? Does it extend recoveries? I just played a few theoretical matches in my mind (too poor, no Switch yet) and this game is fun as hell. Smash 4 will be forgotten quickly. The removal of air dodge spam makes it easier to punish reads, especially with Bowser's newfound speed.
DAirdoging is only effective for recovering if you're already really close to the ledge. But from my own personal experience from playing the last 3 days, Bowser's up B seems to be quite adequate for recovering with. It's pretty fast at frame 6, and unlike in 4 where you would get punished for hitting someone with it, you knock them far away even at low % so it's pretty safe if they try to challenge it. That and the fact that the landing lag is now only 36 frames (Only 1 more than Bowser's dair), you can afford to recover high as a mix up option if your opponents try to chase you offstage.

Jab 1 to Down/Side B still works on Heavyweights/fastfallers
Jab 1 -> Side B works on everyone if they don't mash a fast jab or spot dodge/roll away. I've been following up Jab 1 on shield with Side B as an occasional mixup. Jab 1 -> Up B is another option to cover rolls/spot dodges.
 
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S_B

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The first match of this set mirrors my own experience at my first tournament:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6JikQlhqfI

It's a shame because slingshot pellets are one of the best projectiles Bowser could've TGed, but it feels like the Isabelle matchup is just going to suck and suck hard (yes, I know he wins eventually, but that Isabelle dropped the "wall of pellets" more often than necessary and though frigate helped, that stage isn't legal at my tournaments).
 
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Dε√ilj∦o

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One particular thing the universal jumpsquat change has brought to Bowser and that I love is being able to do tomahawks. That was legit impossible to do with him in 4
 

S-bow64

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Yesterday I was doing some adventure mode to unlock some stuff and eventually musics, found myself against a Bowser CPU and he did a thing that looked maybe interesting.

He was on the edge, then dropped and Up-b onto the stage from a lower position. Obviously I got hit by the Up-B but then when he hit the ground he did an instant Down-smash with no lag and I got blasted, kinda like DK Up-b from certain height from 4 or was it brawl ?

So, is that a thing now ? Maybe someone could try it out when they have time.
 

V0LuG

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Wtf is a tomahawk in Smash ?
Instead of throwing out an aerial, you jump in front of their shield and grab them. It was way too predictable in smash 4, because of the slower jump (and worse air movement if i'm not mistaken).
 
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conTAgi0n

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I did some quick testing, and it seems fall speed has very little effect on vertical survivability in this game. So, Bowser's increased fall speed doesn't help him in that regard.
 

Shuckle89

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What are bowsers hardest match ups in ultimate? I find simon and ness difficult. What are your thoughts on this and are there others?
 

Action Kazimer

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Pichu's been giving me trouble. He also seems to just pop out of moving Fortress if you don't get him with the starting hit. Happened to me 4-5 times in one match last night, and it's hard not to imagine how much damage that would amounted to.
 

Darches

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Perhaps spam it less then? I'd feel inclined to use disjointed attacks to KO the featherweight.
Oh... Is that Bowser's only great OoS option? Some damage is better than none I guess...
I heard you can do it OoS without jumping now. That's awesome for players who don't use tap jump, like me. Now I'll be even more powerful!
 
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Nitros14

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What are bowsers hardest match ups in ultimate? I find simon and ness difficult. What are your thoughts on this and are there others?
I've been playing elite smash 1v1's for the last few days. I was going fairly even with most characters, though I got wrecked by Zelda every time I fought her.

My win rate against Ridley is also like 35%, his backair is massively annoying. Better than my 0% against Zelda though.
 
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-Kagato-

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Just going to say this. With the mechanics of this game being as they are, Bowser has benefited greatly to the point of being a real threat. While I did feel that Smash 4 Bowser was also very good, this is definitely the best version of Bowser to date. Bigger, better, faster, stronger in virtually every category. Hell, even his fire breath does near brawl-levels of damage. 25-40% of free (and mostly safe) damage is a major boon in getting damage up to killing levels quickly and efficiently.

Now, this is not to say he's extremely amazing, but after this past week, I can confidently claim that Bowser is very, very strong. I still love Mega Man, and I absolutely am in love with KKR and Ridley, but Bowser is still the one true King for me.

The hardest matches I have come across have been against Marth/Lucina, Pikachu/Pichu, Ness and the Belmonts.
 
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S_B

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We're going to need a thread for a topic that is basically painful to discuss but it needs to be mentioned...

We need to test which characters can recover to the stage after being carried over the edge by flying slam.

And it gets worse, because different stages are different heights, meaning that every single legal stage could have a completely different spread regarding which characters can make it back to the stage and which cannot.

We have characters like Villager, Isabelle, D3, etc. who are basically guaranteed to make it back regardless of stage choice, but other characters like Sheik, ZSS, etc. can make it back to some stages after being Bowsercided, but not all of them.

So yeah, I'd test this in my free time, but I don't have much free time to speak of. :\
 
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