Ultimate Bowser MU Analysis and Discussion

[NYCheesecake]

Bowser dies first during side B, and the one who has the closest percent near 0% controls most of the movement.

 

[Bynine]

bowser's fall speed is up from 1.39 to 1.77 according to:

https://mobile.twitter.com/virum_sd/status/1068329645467148288

i much prefer playing fastfallers so this is a boon to me, although i worry about how combo food bowser will be now

 

[S_B]

Bowser dies first during side B, and the one who has the closest percent near 0% controls most of the movement.

Does the opponent always pop out and get a chance to recover?

Kingkong had reported this so I'm not surprised it's still in.

 

[conTAgi0n]

bowser's fall speed is up from 1.39 to 1.77 according to:

https://mobile.twitter.com/virum_sd/status/1068329645467148288

i much prefer playing fastfallers so this is a boon to me, although i worry about how combo food bowser will be now

Faster fall speed also increases his vertical survivability, if I'm not much mistaken. This in combination with the weight buff will make Bowser insanely hard to kill off the top.

The Bowser buffs are exciting, his neutral is looking straight up scary in Ultimate.

I think what really needs theorycrafting right now is his disadvantage state.

Does it seem like landing will be any easier for Bowser now? I haven't heard anything about whether his air accel has changed, but the air speed buff plus lower landing lag on aerials might help. I'm also hoping that super fast aerial side b might low key make landing a lot safer, since it discourages shielding underneath him. No auto cancel on side b hurts though.

Also, maybe since disadvantage state seems to be worse across the board now, Bowser's disadvantage will be better relative to the rest of the cast? In other words, if everyone gets juggled to hell and back now, maybe the fact that this happens to Bowser isn't as big of a problem for his viability anymore. It's like if you shoot just me in the leg before a race, I'm screwed, but if you shoot everyone else in the leg too, then we're all on equal footing at least.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Faster fall speed also increases his vertical survivability, if I'm not much mistaken. This in combination with the weight buff will make Bowser insanely hard to kill off the top.

The Bowser buffs are exciting, his neutral is looking straight up scary in Ultimate.

I think what really needs theorycrafting right now is his disadvantage state.

Does it seem like landing will be any easier for Bowser now? I haven't heard anything about whether his air accel has changed, but the air speed buff plus lower landing lag on aerials might help. I'm also hoping that super fast aerial side b might low key make landing a lot safer, since it discourages shielding underneath him. No auto cancel on side b hurts though.

Also, maybe since disadvantage state seems to be worse across the board now, Bowser's disadvantage will be better relative to the rest of the cast? In other words, if everyone gets juggled to hell and back now, maybe the fact that this happens to Bowser isn't as big of a problem for his viability anymore. It's like if you shoot just me in the leg before a race, I'm screwed, but if you shoot everyone else in the leg too, then we're all on equal footing at least.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/AirSpeed According to this, he has a pretty fast air-speed! Also it's less bad to land with attacks with the reduced landing lag, though Bowser is probably not the poster boy for this mechanic...

And this game isn't THAT combo friendly compared to 4 because of knockback acceleration, the nerfs mostly affect mixups and gimping, so being big is still quite bad if you can't recover. At least Bowser's recovery is still pretty solid.

 

[Kerthorok]

We've come full circle. Now Robbie Marshal is saying that we only have Heavy Armor on tilts/smashes, albeit at a much higher threshold than TG: https://twitter.com/Robbie_Marshal/status/1068636702300880896

 

[S_B]

We've come full circle. Now Robbie Marshal is saying that we only have Heavy Armor on tilts/smashes, albeit at a much higher threshold than TG: https://twitter.com/Robbie_Marshal/status/1068636702300880896

Hoping it's flat numbers (eg. Dtilt always armors those hits on Ike's up b, regardless of our percentage).

Trying to remember which moves get armored at varying percentages across 70+ matchups would be an exercise in futility...

 

[Kerthorok]

Bowser can ladder combo now in certain situations: https://youtu.be/03hFQzzl3hk?t=91

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF8MQZ6TtqY

Uh oh... In the description, they state that Link had complete control over Flying Slam.

 

[S_B]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF8MQZ6TtqY

Uh oh... In the description, they state that Link had complete control over Flying Slam.

Yeah, so long as the enemy doesn't ever pop out, I'm semi okay with this.

Just never use it on last stock situations or perfect lead and it should be fine.

 

[conTAgi0n]

To be honest I'm glad that Bowsercide KO's the opponent first. Otherwise, Bowser would have to be balanced around his ability to cheese out wins with Bowsercide. The last thing I would want is for Bowser to be built around a single ridiculous kill option yet again.

 

[S_B]

To be honest I'm glad that Bowsercide KO's the opponent first. Otherwise, Bowser would have to be balanced around his ability to cheese out wins with Bowsercide. The last thing I would want is for Bowser to be built around a single ridiculous kill option yet again.

Just got some bad news: it kills Bowser first, AND the opponent can jump out after Bowser dies, meaning that characters like MK, Villager, and many others can now apparently always just carry Bowser over the edge for a free kill if he uses side b on them.

REALLY hoping they fix this in the infamous day 1 patch.....

 

[S-bow64]

To be fair he was Side-B-ing toward the edge. He may have pushed the stick a little too long, it's easy to get confused during gameplay.

I don't actually believe that Bowser have no control over the Klaw, especially with % advantage.

And for Bowsercide that was pretty much the same in Smash 4 ergo something to avoid unless you have stock advantage against a character with lame recovery. With the speed of Side-B it could be used offstage to go further toward the blastzone now ahah.

Don't get frustrated over this, it's probably nothing/ not a thing.


I found this earlier by the way : https://youtu.be/1Rd1I8-tR2Q?t=5

The Bowser was CPU and did some questionnable things but the Fire Breath cancelled King K crown but only on the first phase, the crown then hit Bowser on the way back. Can an item hitbox activate itself twice ? That was weird, but hey gameplay!


EDIT: Forgot to add, Uair do hit straight in front of Bowser. I don't know if the head intangibility is still here but it could be some kind of poking tool from shorthop, it only have two more frames of ending lag than Nair. I just imagine throwing intangible hitboxes in the neutral but don't know if practicable.

 

[S_B]

To be fair he was Side-B-ing toward the edge. He may have pushed the stick a little too long, it's easy to get confused during gameplay.

I don't actually believe that Bowser have no control over the Klaw, especially with % advantage.

And for Bowsercide that was pretty much the same in Smash 4 ergo something to avoid unless you have stock advantage against a character with lame recovery. With the speed of Side-B it could be used offstage to go further toward the blastzone now ahah.

Don't get frustrated over this, it's probably nothing/ not a thing.


I found this earlier by the way : https://youtu.be/1Rd1I8-tR2Q?t=5

The Bowser was CPU and did some questionnable things but the Fire Breath cancelled King K crown but only on the first phase, the crown then hit Bowser on the way back. Can an item hitbox activate itself twice ? That was weird, but hey gameplay!


EDIT: Forgot to add, Uair do hit straight in front of Bowser. I don't know if the head intangibility is still here but it could be some kind of poking tool from shorthop, it only have two more frames of ending lag than Nair. I just imagine throwing intangible hitboxes in the neutral but don't know if practicable.

KingKong, a prominent Bowser main, tried the game out and confirmed the same thing, though: Bowser has very little control over flying slam, apparently.

Again, hoping this gets addressed quickly as Bowser doesn't need to have a crippling drawback that nullifies one of his best options.

Also...
https://twitter.com/robbie_marshal/status/1068996715842363393?s=21

Might main KRool until they fix this crap because under no circumstances do I want to lose flying slam just because my opponent picks Villager, Isabelle, MK, Kirby, Snake, KRool, D3, and a number I'm forgetting, I'm sure...

 

[Kerthorok]

Found this little gem on the Bowser discord: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK4Oa_srzRI&feature=youtu.be& Lot of stuff to talk about. Falling Nair -> Double Jump Up Air: https://youtu.be/tK4Oa_srzRI?t=92 Up Throw -> TRIPLE FAIR???: https://youtu.be/tK4Oa_srzRI?t=101 Landing Fair -> F Smash: https://youtu.be/tK4Oa_srzRI?t=128

 

[S-bow64]

KingKong, a prominent Bowser main, tried the game out and confirmed the same thing, though: Bowser has very little control over flying slam, apparently.

Again, hoping this gets addressed quickly as Bowser doesn't need to have a crippling drawback that nullifies one of his best options.

Where did he say that ? How long did he play and what was the context of the match when he noticed it ? (really curious by the way)

I mean top players may know better than most but let's not jump to conclusion and swallow what people say without real testing unless he already have the game and played enough to know it's true. Maybe the timing for the direction is stricter or it's easier to go in the direction you face, who knows.

For the video, the triple Fair looks legit, all three of them seemed to be done in equal timing, the second one might not be true but it sure does seem like it, surely a boon from the 3 frames jump squat.

The Fair to F-smash was true because he didn't tech but we can really see that the shaved off frames of Fair ending lag make new things possible. I wonder if there is some properties to that back attack animation.

For the Nair to Uair, that was the last hit of Nair which have higher knockback but to have this much hitstun was it really true though ?

Good video/find , thanks.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

This game might actually need 4 stocks lmao

 

[S_B]

Found this little gem on the Bowser discord: https://www.youtube.com/watch? Lot of stuff to talk about. Falling Nair -> Double Jump Up Air: https://youtu.be/tK4Oa_srzRI?t=92 Up Throw -> TRIPLE FAIR???: https://youtu.be/tK4Oa_srzRI?t=101 Landing Fair -> F Smash: https://youtu.be/tK4Oa_srzRI?t=128

What's the link for the Bowser discord again? Had it on an old account but lost it...

 

[Kerthorok]

What's the link for the Bowser discord again? Had it on an old account but lost it...

https://discord.gg/RfVkR4

 

[S_B]

Where did he say that ? How long did he play and what was the context of the match when he noticed it ? (really curious by the way)

I mean top players may know better than most but let's not jump to conclusion and swallow what people say without real testing unless he already have the game and played enough to know it's true. Maybe the timing for the direction is stricter or it's easier to go in the direction you face, who knows.

For the video, the triple Fair looks legit, all three of them seemed to be done in equal timing, the second one might not be true but it sure does seem like it, surely a boon from the 3 frames jump squat.

The Fair to F-smash was true because he didn't tech but we can really see that the shaved off frames of Fair ending lag make new things possible. I wonder if there is some properties to that back attack animation.

For the Nair to Uair, that was the last hit of Nair which have higher knockback but to have this much hitstun was it really true though ?

Good video/find , thanks.

He mentions it here:
https://youtu.be/3bsaVR7GgM0

Again, hoping the day 1 patch fixes this. The entire point of Bowser having more control was BECAUSE he died first and the enemy could jump out and recover.

This basically makes the move unusable against a large chunk of the roster.

 

[conTAgi0n]

I wish they would just restrict the horizontal movement of klaw to be way more narrow, it would solve all these problems.

 

[S_B]

I wish they would just restrict the horizontal movement of klaw to be way more narrow, it would solve all these problems.

TBH, I wouldn't mind if it couldn't move at all: just up and down wherever the grab connects and that's it would be fine with me.

 

[Kerthorok]

Apparently Up Tilt got a little damage buff. It deals 11.5% base damage (without the 1v1 multiplier or 13.8% with the multiplier) now, up from 9% in smash 4.

 

[S-bow64]

He mentions it here:
https://youtu.be/3bsaVR7GgM0

Again, hoping the day 1 patch fixes this. The entire point of Bowser having more control was BECAUSE he died first and the enemy could jump out and recover.

This basically makes the move unusable against a large chunk of the roster.

It was from the first demo then but if it's really true after all this time I'm sure it'll get adressed. Didn't they give a control buff in Smash 4 ? I vaguely recall something like that.

To be honest as much as I love the Flying Slam, I wish we got PM Klaw with the directional throws but add the bites from melee and make the Up Klaw a stationary Flying slam while keeping the Forward a heabutt. That would be my dream.


By the way, anybody tought about using aerial Up-B as a combo ender ? With the last hitbox having now high knockback enough to be a killing move, it makes the move safer to use. I believe it might be the reason Bowser move vertically so it is easier to catch opponent with it. It might combo after U-throw / falling Nair or even Uair thanks to the new jumpsquat and it has actually fast start-up.

That's something to try out.

 

[S_B]

It was from the first demo then but if it's really true after all this time I'm sure it'll get adressed. Didn't they give a control buff in Smash 4 ? I vaguely recall something like that.

To be honest as much as I love the Flying Slam, I wish we got PM Klaw with the directional throws but add the bites from melee and make the Up Klaw a stationary Flying slam while keeping the Forward a heabutt. That would be my dream.


By the way, anybody tought about using aerial Up-B as a combo ender ? With the last hitbox having now high knockback enough to be a killing move, it makes the move safer to use. I believe it might be the reason Bowser move vertically so it is easier to catch opponent with it. It might combo after U-throw / falling Nair or even Uair thanks to the new jumpsquat and it has actually fast start-up.

That's something to try out.

They buffed Bowser's control a patch or so after they made Bowser die first (I was actually the one who discovered this as I woke up 6AM EST to test it when the patch dropped) to the point where the enemy needs to have ~30% less than Bowser before their control matches his.

But yes, I'd take Melee klaw back in a hearbeat over this and all of the complications there are with it...

 

[Kerthorok]

The Initial Dash Speed Tier List is out, and Bowser is sitting at #5. Probably explains why his dash dance is so amazing. http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/DashSpeed

This is pretty significant because this is more than double what it was in Smash 4. It's now 2.255, up from 1. He went from tied for last place in 4 to tied for 5th place in Ultimate lol.

 

[Darches]

Wowser, such mobility buffs. It's not how I'd balance him... I'd start with things like "give Bowser Bomb super armor so it always wins from above."
I like the air speed buff, but not the fall speed increase. He's floaty in the games so you can run under him to get the axe...

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

If we're talking Bowser Bomb improvements i'd rather make it so the grounded variant's headbutt can always connect reliably with the bomb

 

[Kerthorok]

Mr. "He's Basically Just Brawl Bowser", decided to upload a video today on Bowser in Ultimate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1ngMwG_JgU

 

[conTAgi0n]

The Initial Dash Speed Tier List is out, and Bowser is sitting at #5. Probably explains why his dash dance is so amazing. http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/DashSpeed

This is pretty significant because this is more than double what it was in Smash 4. It's now 2.255, up from 1. He went from tied for last place in 4 to tied for 5th place in Ultimate lol.

Would you mind sharing the equivalent list for Smash 4? The link http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/DashSpeed actually takes you to run speed, so I'm not sure where to look for it.

 

[Kerthorok]

Would you mind sharing the equivalent list for Smash 4? The link http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/DashSpeed actually takes you to run speed, so I'm not sure where to look for it.

Yeah, it's not on Kurogane Hammer for some reason. I just looked it up on ssbwiki: https://www.ssbwiki.com/dash

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Mr. "He's Basically Just Brawl Bowser", decided to upload a video today on Bowser in Ultimate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1ngMwG_JgU

Dude. I'm glad he made a video about him and was NOT expecting one to come out on Bowser before the game's release. I'm glad he changed his thoughts because let's be honest, the Bowser we see now is far from the one we observed at E3. We have so much more footage of Bowser in the final build now, and, yeah, Bowser's just very good now.

 

[Bynine]

i can't wait to finally play as a bowser who is both good and well rounded! i've been playing as him since melee but he's just never felt quite right to me. i think ultimate bowser will finally fill that niche

 

[Darches]

If we're talking Bowser Bomb improvements i'd rather make it so the grounded variant's headbutt can always connect reliably with the bomb

Well yeah, that's a problem with a lot of lower tiered characters. Even still, the grounded version has proved to be much more useful than the air version which loses to Mario's uSmash, which is just wrong. Not to mention failing to break shields due to shield slide, and being horribly vulnerable against all dodges.

Thankfully the new Bowser Bomb will be notably harder to perfect shield .
I glanced over the general changes and... This game is gonna be epic. I... But my college funds... But I... I need it... I NEED IT.

 

[Manonymous]

I'm a Bowser main, and I'm happy that they give us buffs, like speed, frame-data and fast falling. Many said that throwing away his grab combos made him worse, but I don't think so. He still have option to kill. When I play Bowser, I killed most of my opponents with side-B, forward air, down-B or forward-Smash. And all of his aerials do damage, like back air. You can still edgeguard with forward air or back air, down-air to meteor smash and you still have shield pressure. I'm not a competitive player, but I do think Bowser is good now. I didn't read what you wrote, I'll do it later but you do you guys think ? Is he good now ?

By the way have you see ZeRo's opinion on Bowser ? It gives me hope !

 

[S_B]

The first ~400MB patch went live for SSBU yesterday, probably the day 1.

Very much hoping Bowser received the gift of a properly working side-B in that patch...

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

The first ~400MB patch went live for SSBU yesterday, probably the day 1.

Very much hoping Bowser received the gift of a properly working side-B in that patch...

Sakurai said that's its only for Replays. But it is weird that the patch is 400mb.

 

[S_B]

Sakurai said that's its only for Replays. But it is weird that the patch is 400mb.

Went from 1.0.0 to 1.1.0, but SSB always used strange version systems in the past so who knows.

 

[Bynine]

it's certainly more than replay support, but whether it'll contain balance changes and new content or just bugfixes is yet to be determined

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

ESAM's tier list...

> Wario is top tier because he got the universal jumpsquat buff down from 6 frames in 4
> so that he can make better use of his "awesome aerials"
> Bowser is low tier despite getting by far the biggest buffs in mobility out of any character, jumpsquat was an abyssmal 8 frames, and arguably has aerials as good as Wario's
> "B-but yeah hes faster and people say hes good but I DONT SEE WHY they're freaking out he's just Smash 4 Bowser slightly better without any combos!!"

I like Esam and I know his opinions are strange and thats the charm to him but come on man.