Ultimate Bowser MU Analysis and Discussion

[meleebrawler]

I believe the crown can only be caught by characters like Villager with pocket.

But he can apply pressure from range as well as set up traps, and the cannonball negates many other projectiles, from what we've seen.

But really, it's that fact that it appears he gets a free fsmash/dsmash off a grab that makes him hard to pass up, not to mention having outright super armor on a number of moves.

Again, we'll see, but I feel like Bowser's kit just didn't get the love it needed this game, the endlag reduction being the most helpful this far.

The very first match he ever fought in had Snake able to pick up and use the crown just fine.

Play who you want to play. This is a new smash bros game, that's a more compelling reason than any I can think of to play new characters. But I don't appreciate my guy getting put down for no good reason. Some new, untested squeeze like K Rool aint a good reason. If he throws that crown at me I'm dash attacking clean through to demand more respect - and get myself some fancy jewelry.

Actually, the crown throw has armour. But if you're in range to catch the crown as it's thrown and hit K. Rool, you could probably just grab him or go for an armour break if it indeed uses his unique belly armour that stuns him if it's hit too much.

 

[S_B]

The very first match he ever fought in had Snake able to pick up and use the crown just fine.



Actually, the crown throw has armour. But if you're in range to catch the crown as it's thrown and hit K. Rool, you could probably just grab him or go for an armour break if it indeed uses his unique belly armour that stuns him if it's hit too much.

You can pick up the crown if he hasn't caught it in the return, but I don't believe it can be caught out of the air unless you're Villager or Isabelle.

And I'm honestly miffed at the development team for not paying much attention to older characters. It's not Bowser's fault his moveset didn't get many updates.

But it could be worse: we could be Ganondorf players and our character STILL doesn't have a single move from the LoZ titles even FOUR games later...

 

[meleebrawler]

You can pick up the crown if he hasn't caught it in the return, but I don't believe it can be caught out of the air unless you're Villager or Isabelle.

And I'm honestly miffed at the development team for not paying much attention to older characters. It's not Bowser's fault his moveset didn't get many updates.

But it could be worse: we could be Ganondorf players and our character STILL doesn't have a single move from the LoZ titles even FOUR games later...

You mean those moves that are designed to be exploitable, or too large-scale to be normal attacks?

Bowser's been updated enough to do what he needs to. Everything that held him back except for being fat and combo food (which isn't ever going away) has been removed, and as such he now functions as a heavier-hitting Falcon. He's never had a projectile, his disadvantage and recovery are just as bad if not worse, yet he's done well in almost every game where combos are possible. All Bowser lacked in comparison was the ability to start combos with normals due to his slow jumpsquat, which is no longer a thing.

 

[S_B]

You mean those moves that are designed to be exploitable, or too large-scale to be normal attacks?

Bowser's been updated enough to do what he needs to. Everything that held him back except for being fat and combo food (which isn't ever going away) has been removed, and as such he now functions as a heavier-hitting Falcon. He's never had a projectile, his disadvantage and recovery are just as bad if not worse, yet he's done well in almost every game where combos are possible. All Bowser lacked in comparison was the ability to start combos with normals due to his slow jumpsquat, which is no longer a thing.

I mean moves that are faithful to his appearances, like floating or the ball of darkness he can throw.

Again, I'll wait and see.

 

[S-bow64]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RiuFsHGI-k

That's apparently old footage but I never saw this one.

At 0:53 : Jab 2 have almost no lag, Bowser used Jab1 then Jab2 then Jab1 right after that.

 

[meleebrawler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RiuFsHGI-k

That's apparently old footage but I never saw this one.

At 0:53 : Jab 2 have almost no lag, Bowser used Jab1 then Jab2 then Jab1 right after that.

As i suspected, his ability to follow up and continue pressure on hits is vastly improved.

 

[S_B]

As i suspected, his ability to follow up and continue pressure on hits is vastly improved.

I thought we've heard from a few people who played the game in this thread that jab 1 followups are basically out...

Yes, jab 2 comes out quickly because that's the 2nd part of the jab, AFAIK the game won't take any other inputs except for jab 2 until jab 1 finishes.

We lost jab to grab, jab to klaw and jab to bomb.

 

[meleebrawler]

I thought we've heard from a few people who played the game in this thread that jab 1 followups are basically out...

Yes, jab 2 comes out quickly because that's the 2nd part of the jab, AFAIK the game won't take any other inputs except for jab 2 until jab 1 finishes.

We lost jab to grab, jab to klaw and jab to bomb.

This isn't about Jab 2's startup, it's about endlag. Read S-bow64 's post more carefully. Landing it will allow Bowser to pursue almost immediately, and mix-up on shields.

 

[S_B]

This isn't about Jab 2's startup, it's about endlag. Read S-bow64 's post more carefully. Landing it will allow Bowser to pursue almost immediately, and mix-up on shields.

Ahhh, my mistake.

Still sad about the loss of jab 1 to bomb, I guess.

This will be nice for continuing pressure at low % on heavier characters, but it still has enough knockback that it won't do much at higher % (and shield pressure).

Also, I'm not sure I've seen this mentioned, but has Bowser's horizontal airspeed improved? I feel like it got better, probably to make room for KKR's being the worst.

 

[S-bow64]

I didn't noticed anything but I would be so glad if that was the case with the new jumpsquat, poking with Fair and Bair would be a little better and safer.

Still scrapping the bottom of the barrel with this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EccQFe4IiE

Not much here, D-tilt despite the unnecessary damage nerf could be a good poking tool if we are willing to trade blows for the increased tough guy.

Down-B quake hitbox seems nonexistant but at 2:36 we can see Bowser tanking Zelda's sourspot Dair during his Uair. Makes me wonder does Uair have some armor ? Or is it possible that Tough Guy can be effective in the air too at least during certain moves ?

Cause for as weak as it is, Zelda's sourspot Dair has enough knockback to end you off stage, unless they changed the properties. Mmh

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser's tough guy tanked Zelda's Dair late hit at low percents in Smash 4 so that's not new.

S-bow64 Click the share button under youtube videos if you want a link directly to a timestamp.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Hey guys, there's a couple things I want to discuss about Bowser, mainly about Smash 4 and my own way of using him, and I want to know you guy's thoughts on it and if those strategies will work in Ultimate.

1) First off, there's something I've NEVER seen anyone discuss, nor seen in competitive play, and it's Bowser's grab release to Forward Tilt.
That's something I've experienced with for a while and it's proven to be highly effective in my matches. Simply, you grab someone at high percentages, say 120-140%, pummel them continuously, and once they break out, you use Forward Tilt.
It works against the majority of the cast, there's a handful of characters I noticed this doesn't work on, like Yoshi.
Now, of course, this isn't a true combo, but it works most of the time, for the following reasons:

- They simply don't react/do anything or fast enough, in this case, Forward Tilt connects.
- They shield, but Forward Tilt still connects because at the same frame they tried to do a roll (this happens a lot. I see them shielding, yet I still hit and I'm pretty sure this is why.)
- They try to stand grab, jab, or use another attack that doesn't come out quicker than Forward Tilt or can trade with it/outrage it, so Forward Tilt connects.

Have you guys ever done this? All of the above doesn't work on some characters like I said, but I recall it working on a lot since this a strat I use a lot personally. Let me know your thoughts, and could Ultimate's engine allow this?

2) Using Up Air as combo breaker/approach option. A lot of the time, I use Up Air as a combo breaker, or way to hit an opponent trying to attack in the air instead of air dodging. Think Ganondorf Up Air, except our's is slower, but we have armor if I recall right.
It works very well, for me, again, as it's really not something the opponent expects. Sometimes, I prefer using it over Forward Air, and it's pretty good.
And for the approach option, what I mean is using Up Air on a grounded opponent as a pressuring tool kind of like Cloud. Now I wouldnt recommend doing this in Smash 4 because Up Air doesnt do enough shieldstun and has bad landing lag, but I believe it's got a landing lag buff in Ultimate? What do you guys think? Could Up Air work like this in Ultimate?

 

[meleebrawler]

Hey guys, there's a couple things I want to discuss about Bowser, mainly about Smash 4 and my own way of using him, and I want to know you guy's thoughts on it and if those strategies will work in Ultimate.

1) First off, there's something I've NEVER seen anyone discuss, nor seen in competitive play, and it's Bowser's grab release to Forward Tilt.
That's something I've experienced with for a while and it's proven to be highly effective in my matches. Simply, you grab someone at high percentages, say 120-140%, pummel them continuously, and once they break out, you use Forward Tilt.
It works against the majority of the cast, there's a handful of characters I noticed this doesn't work on, like Yoshi.
Now, of course, this isn't a true combo, but it works most of the time, for the following reasons:

- They simply don't react/do anything or fast enough, in this case, Forward Tilt connects.
- They shield, but Forward Tilt still connects because at the same frame they tried to do a roll (this happens a lot. I see them shielding, yet I still hit and I'm pretty sure this is why.)
- They try to stand grab, jab, or use another attack that doesn't come out quicker than Forward Tilt or can trade with it/outrage it, so Forward Tilt connects.

Have you guys ever done this? All of the above doesn't work on some characters like I said, but I recall it working on a lot since this a strat I use a lot personally. Let me know your thoughts, and could Ultimate's engine allow this?

2) Using Up Air as combo breaker/approach option. A lot of the time, I use Up Air as a combo breaker, or way to hit an opponent trying to attack in the air instead of air dodging. Think Ganondorf Up Air, except our's is slower, but we have armor if I recall right.
It works very well, for me, again, as it's really not something the opponent expects. Sometimes, I prefer using it over Forward Air, and it's pretty good.
And for the approach option, what I mean is using Up Air on a grounded opponent as a pressuring tool kind of like Cloud. Now I wouldnt recommend doing this in Smash 4 because Up Air doesnt do enough shieldstun and has bad landing lag, but I believe it's got a landing lag buff in Ultimate? What do you guys think? Could Up Air work like this in Ultimate?

Uh, if their percent is that high when you grab them, wouldn't an fthrow or bthrow suffice to kill them?

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Uh, if their percent is that high when you grab them, wouldn't an fthrow or bthrow suffice to kill them?

Forward throw does'nt always kill at those percents near the ledge, especially if they DI well. Forward tilt does. That's when I use this strat. I should've precised that it can't work if you're too close to the ledge, though because the grab release will be different.

 

[Darches]

I've never thought about grab releasing on purpose with any character; what a stupid mechanic. Auto-pummel and auto-throw would be nice.

 

[S_B]

Some great footage here:
https://youtu.be/93mQPcu4Hc8?t=4576

Just LOOK at how fast aerial side-B confirms at 1:17:53 O_O

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

https://youtu.be/q3YaIvqqfUw

Here's a good Bowser showcase, although two months old.

A gimp with our new Fire Breath, still tanking jabs with Tough Guy at 140%, and an aerial Fortress Kill.

 

[Kerthorok]

Robbie Marshal is claiming that Bowser has super armor on all his smash attacks. https://twitter.com/Robbie_Marshal/status/1066791541040140288

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Super armor as in, during the attack? What about Up Smash, does it have super armor on all parts of Bowser now on top of having the shell invincibility?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Super Armor may be the incorrect word for it. We've seen him blow through a few light moves during Fsmash and Dsmash, but never something very heavy. The heaviest I remember is Cloud and Pikachu's F-tilt. Could just be knockback or damaged based armor.

Cool detail though. Pairs well with Fsmash and Dsmash being available now when we run.

 

[Kerthorok]

Also here's some surprisingly juicy footage from a lvl 9 Bowser going HAM on a lvl 9 Samus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miFJ0VmvKdo

Pay keen attention to https://youtu.be/miFJ0VmvKdo?t=127

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Yup, there goes the armor on down smash.

Also, that Samus airdodged off-stage, but didn't suffer lag, am I missing something, or is the high lag only on directional airdodges?

 

[meleebrawler]

Yup, there goes the armor on down smash.

Also, that Samus airdodged off-stage, but didn't suffer lag, am I missing something, or is the high lag only on directional airdodges?

Yeah, that's the trade-off between the two. Even so, using it as liberally as the Smash 4 version will end up making all of your dodges worse, so you still have to be careful using it.

 

[Kerthorok]

Yeah, that's the trade-off between the two. Even so, using it as liberally as the Smash 4 version will end up making all of your dodges worse, so you still have to be careful using it.

You also only get 1 air dodge until you land on the ground again anyway, so you have to use it wisely.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The missile didn't hit Bowser. He clanked against the missile with Dsmash, and hit Samus beyond the missile because it just has that sort of range. The reason why the missile didn't take off immediately is because Samus' super missile variants now sit in the air for almost a full second before taking off so that she can run behind them for a followup.

 

[Kerthorok]

This is Robbie Marshal's explanation of his super armor claim, sadly no footage: https://twitter.com/Robbie_Marshal/status/1066862732450902016

 

[meleebrawler]

Super Armor may be the incorrect word for it. We've seen him blow through a few light moves during Fsmash and Dsmash, but never something very heavy. The heaviest I remember is Cloud and Pikachu's F-tilt. Could just be knockback or damaged based armor.

Cool detail though. Pairs well with Fsmash and Dsmash being available now when we run.

The right term, as Smash Wiki puts it, may be ''heavy armour'', that is to say any form of armour that has a knockback threshold where it no longer stops flinching, but can still reduce knockback.

 

[Kerthorok]

Kurogane Hammer chimed in: https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/1066872850311573505

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Kurogane Hammer chimed in: https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/1066872850311573505

That's an in-game tip? Well that settles it then. It's knockback based armor. Since it mentions being at low percent and all.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Well. How does this affect Bowser's viability in Ultimate now?

 

[Kerthorok]

Well. How does this affect Bowser's viability in Ultimate now?

Good enough to get amazing results in the right hands. Weak enough that he won't carry people in top level play.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser's sword arms, high range, and high damage have always let him out prioritize incoming weak attacks. But added armor can let you do just that without the need for proper spacing on your F-tilts and U-tilts. The question certainly lies in what knockback threshold they've given us, since the examples we seen confirm almost three times the amount of our passive Tough Guy armor (which is 19? I think that's right). So...somewhere around 45-60 units. For comparison, Yoshi's Double Jump armor is 120 units of Knockback in Smash 4. And if it includes all smashes and tilts, then that pairs well with our ability to use those moves freely from a run in Ultimate. It sure would feel nice to just blast through Sheik's puny F-airs with a tilt. But if the armor is only active for a precious few frames then that sort of manuever might be too inconsistent to shut down that part of her game plan completely. I think the real trick will be in understanding your opponent's likely moves that could be armored, and exploiting them if they seem unaware of what could be armored.

 

[Kerthorok]

Bowser's sword arms, high range, and high damage have always let him out prioritize incoming weak attacks. But added armor can let you do just that without the need for proper spacing on your F-tilts and U-tilts. The question certainly lies in what knockback threshold they've given us, since the examples we seen confirm almost three times the amount of our passive Tough Guy armor (which is 19? I think that's right). So...somewhere around 45-60 units. For comparison, Yoshi's Double Jump armor is 120 units of Knockback in Smash 4. And if it includes all smashes and tilts, then that pairs well with our ability to use those moves freely from a run in Ultimate. It sure would feel nice to just blast through Sheik's puny F-airs with a tilt. But if the armor is only active for a precious few frames then that sort of manuever might be too inconsistent to shut down that part of her game plan completely. I think the real trick will be in understanding your opponent's likely moves that could be armored, and exploiting them if they seem unaware of what could be armored.

We're going to replace our spreadsheets for Koo Pah percentages with spreadsheets for moves that we can Tough Guy through lol.

 

[S_B]

Kurogane Hammer chimed in: https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/1066872850311573505

This confuses me because I KNOW I've seen Bowser get knocked out of smashes and tilts up until now...unless this tip is describing a change that was made after the E3 demo...?

I also desperately want to know if this is implying SA only activates at lower % or not.

This is phenomenal news if true. I was just thinking about how BS it is that KRool has SA on some of his attacks (price tag and all) and DK has them on some of his, but Bowser has no SA on anything, despite literally wearing a huge, armored shell and having diddly squat for a projectile game and needing to get in to do any real work.

Well. How does this affect Bowser's viability in Ultimate now?

It will hinge entirely upon how many frames of SA he gets per attack and if they can actually be used to any real effect.

TBH, if the SA has been there on his tilts and smashes since the E3 demo, I've seen it matter very, VERY little.

 

[Kierdar]

Bowser's tough guy tanked Zelda's Dair late hit at low percents in Smash 4 so that's not new.

I've seen tough guy tank mewtwo's jab multihits.

 

[Action Kazimer]

This is the best news I've read all year.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I've seen tough guy tank mewtwo's jab multihits.

Yup, that's one of the new ones. In fact it wouldn't be too optimistic to expect Bowser to be able to Tough Guy all multi jabs in Ultimate simply because they've been made weaker-yet-quicker across the board.

Jury is still out on whether Tough Guy as we've known it has been adjusted for Ultimate. It's clearly still in as a mechanic, but most of our examples of new moves Bowser can armor were either multijabs or moves he tanked as a result of this new armor on his tilts and smashes. The new 1v1 damage multiplier has me concerned that we'll lose some armor-able attacks. But the only noteworthy moves in Smash 4 were a handful of multijabs, Mega Man's pellets, and Luigi's fireballs. If we've got all three of these locked down in Ultimate then our situation can't really get worse than it was previously.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

To dispel any confusion: https://twitter.com/Fake_Bowser/status/1067382839887495168

It appears we do have low to mid % combo off of UThrow in the release build.

 

[S_B]

Yup, that's one of the new ones. In fact it wouldn't be too optimistic to expect Bowser to be able to Tough Guy all multi jabs in Ultimate simply because they've been made weaker-yet-quicker across the board.

Jury is still out on whether Tough Guy as we've known it has been adjusted for Ultimate. It's clearly still in as a mechanic, but most of our examples of new moves Bowser can armor were either multijabs or moves he tanked as a result of this new armor on his tilts and smashes. The new 1v1 damage multiplier has me concerned that we'll lose some armor-able attacks. But the only noteworthy moves in Smash 4 were a handful of multijabs, Mega Man's pellets, and Luigi's fireballs. If we've got all three of these locked down in Ultimate then our situation can't really get worse than it was previously.

Yeah, I'm anxious to test this as I'm almost positive this change went in after the E3 demo where Bowser saw the most play (not seen him played nearly as much with the full roster available due to the sheer number of choices).

These will be the slowest two weeks ever...

To dispel any confusion: https://twitter.com/Fake_Bowser/status/1067382839887495168

It appears we do have low to mid % combo off of UThrow in the release build.

Ha! The koo-pah rises from the grave...

 

[Kerthorok]

Here's some great 1v1 footage vs K Rool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD-cwnqHxBU&feature=youtu.be Good footage of Down B spike hitbox in action. Might have a more nuanced purpose in smash ultimate. Nair has great shield poking potential. This was practically a full shield when started: https://youtu.be/yD-cwnqHxBU?t=50 Side B has great range. You might need to slow it down to really see: https://youtu.be/yD-cwnqHxBU?t=54 Not sure what happened here but it looks interesting seeing two moves that should be armored interact: https://youtu.be/yD-cwnqHxBU?t=103 Also, nair -> fair kill confirm?: https://youtu.be/yD-cwnqHxBU?t=113