Ultimate Bowser MU Analysis and Discussion

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Man I can't wait to play Snake though...

Very unfortunate that we can't follow Jab 1, that was one of the best things Bowser had in Smash 4. Its a shame. Taking off Up Throw is something, taking off Jab followups is too much.

 

[meleebrawler]

Man I can't wait to play Snake though...

Very unfortunate that we can't follow Jab 1, that was one of the best things Bowser had in Smash 4. Its a shame. Taking off Up Throw is something, taking off Jab followups is too much.

Would it not be more prudent to see the fate of other jab 1 combos, or the potential effectiveness of Bowser's other combo tools in this setting? The jumpsquat alone lets Bowser pile on the pressure more quickly in any situation he launches the opponent.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Personally I'm still holding out hope for the original Smash 4 kill confirm in Jab 1 > Side B. Jab 1 appears to be more sluggish, but Side B is definitively faster in startup compared to the last game. Whether or not this can be escaped is among the high priority of things to test once the game releases. The absolute worst case scenario is a Samus situation where Jab 1 doesn't deliver enough knockback to confirm into the second jab. And I still like the idea of Jab 1 and 2 as generic pokes due to their reach and low endlag. All in all, they'd have to do a lot in order for our jab to be useless since it's such a unique niche in Bowser's moveset.

 

[Kerthorok]

There's this new phenomenon that causes weak hits to be "sticky." https://twitter.com/0neSmash/status/1056556708800159744

 

[meleebrawler]

There's this new phenomenon that causes weak hits to be "sticky." https://twitter.com/0neSmash/status/1056556708800159744

Sooo... we have SFV pre-patch anti-air jabs? Auto-link angles for all jabs and multi-hits?

All this seems like a means to balance out risk-reward, as in they believe something as low-commitment as a jab shouldn't lead to a big combo, only the rest of the jab combo. It's all about the tilts and aerials.

 

[Kerthorok]

Combos in general seem to be significantly weaker in Ultimate. At least simple guaranteed ones are. Most attacks seem to have significantly more base knockback, which of course is offset by the acceleration mechanics being significantly different. i.e. "balloon knockback" I think Bowser will significantly benefit from this new environment since he can live so long and doesn't mind getting knocked back far away if it means not being comboed for an eternity. e.g. If you're in an environment where you can no longer have long guaranteed strings of attacks, being able to hit much harder with your few attacks that you can land will be very advantageous.

 

[meleebrawler]

Combos in general seem to be significantly weaker in Ultimate. At least simple guaranteed ones are. Most attacks seem to have significantly more base knockback, which of course is offset by the acceleration mechanics being significantly different. i.e. "balloon knockback" I think Bowser will significantly benefit from this new environment since he can live so long and doesn't mind getting knocked back far away if it means not being comboed for an eternity. e.g. If you're in an environment where you can no longer have long guaranteed strings of attacks, being able to hit much harder with your few attacks that you can land will be very advantageous.

From what I can see the characters that had long combos in 4 still do in Ultimate, at most losing or getting their bread-and-butter combo starters nerfed. So it's not really that combos are less effective, it's just that you have to make more of a commitment than a simple grab or jab if you want to get them.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Lots of spammable utilts (Mario, Kirby, Ryu etc) have been adjusted to have more base knockback or less optimal knockback angles in Ultimate, because spamming the same move over and over is boring for both players. But otherwise Low to mid% combos seem more potent compared to Smash 4 if for no other reason than characters spend less time in endlag/landing lag as well as having more options from a run and rise faster from their initial jump. I'm anticipating Bowser could landing F-air to a true dash grab at mid percents for instance. Should be handy since it's also got to be safe on block if your spacing isn't awful. N-air starfish combos are also going to be huge, especially falling N-air to true B-air, which was limited to sheik in 4 but can be executed ten frames faster due to five frames off our jumpsquat and five frames off our N-air landing lag. Imagine how busted our Uthrow would be if we rose to our max jump height quicker and left the ground five frames faster. Uthrow>B-air would just be free, and then Uthrow > D-air at the ledge.

As for high% combos, I'm thinking we'll see far less due to knockback velocity and how that ramps up so exponentially. Ultimate's initial labbing from players will probably be very focused on whether any true kill confirms exist at all. Then transition to a focus on how characters can 50/50 around dodge options or optimally mix attack strings. Tech chasing may also suddenly come back into vogue as well. When you tech chased in 4, it was usually just for a grab, but in this game your smash attacks are available from a run and some of those cover a ton of space. Plus there's that business about not being able to tech spikes when you're on the ground and that should open up new options for characters with autocancel D-airs.

In general I'm anticipating good combos at low percents with stray hits and perfect shield punishes for later percents - in addition to standard bait and punishes. Definitely curious how/if the engine may get tweaked before release, or even through patch updates which happened several times in Smash 4's case. From all the footage I've seen, I'm most concerned about shields and that inability to run through people but my opinions about knockback have improved considerably after seeing it more in action.

 

[S_B]

So KRool's dthrow buries the opponent and can be followed up with dsmash for a kill:
https://youtu.be/YVoXwdIfhKo

Why the hell doesn't Bowser's dthrow do this?

And not gonna lie: Incineroar seems to be creeping in on Bowser's turf in a big way.

 

[meleebrawler]

So KRool's dthrow buries the opponent and can be followed up with dsmash for a kill:
https://youtu.be/YVoXwdIfhKo

Why the hell doesn't Bowser's dthrow do this?

And not gonna lie: Incineroar seems to be creeping in on Bowser's turf in a big way.

"Creeping" is the operative word, as Incineroar is really, really slow to move around, while Bowser is really, really fast on the ground.

There are two kinds of grapplers: ''pure'' and ''attack''. Pure is what Incineroar is; he discourages the opponent from attacking with his own attacks and his Revenge counter, which risks giving him a buffed move if they're reckless. All this so he can land his grabs, where his real damage lies.

Attack grapplers, what Bowser is, are the opposite. Their grabs, whose reward mainly comes in decent-but-not-outstanding damage or positioning, are used to discourage blocking so they can land their punishing and surprisingly combo-capable normals.

 

[Kerthorok]

I feel like all of the heavies play very differently in Smash Ultimate and have different niches accordingly. I don't get the sense that there's an overall most OP heavyweight currently. But I will have fun trying them all out after Bowser of course.

 

[Acrete]

Alright I played the new bowser for more than a couple hours.

He’s better guys. I’ve mained him since smash 4 with a 75% winrate on FG. I know him in and out.

Feels similar but faster. New moves work better. Jab especially. F air too. He is still heavy and super armour is noticeably better. Those analysis videos are well and good but when you handle him yourself you just know.

He can handle the upgrade the cast has received. No landing lag makes it very hard to punish him on landing now. Jab comes out instantly after landing.

There’s a lot of technical things I noticed but just rest easy from one bowser main to another, he has been upgraded and will be a stronger contender this time round.

 

[Rocketjay8]

This is going to be Ultimate's saving grace. Any kind of competitive game lives and dies on patches, updates, buffs and nerfs. It doesn't matter what kind of game it is; it NEEDS to have the support of the company and the development team must keep fixing it and updating it. This is how games like World of Warcraft and Team Fortress 2 can be played for years and still attract new players while keeping the old ones happy.

Nintendo clearly tried to keep Smash 4 updated, but the Wii U's disastrous sales lead them to say "welp, the only ones playing it seriously is a small sector anyway so why bother?", which is why I am more than happy that Smash Ultimate exists; Smash 4 laid ground to what is in my eyes one of the best Smash engines yet, one that is a hybrid of Melee, 64 and Brawl that allowed for changes and updates to happen. With the Switch already outselling the Wii U at a rapid pace, Smash Ultimate has the chance to finally be similar to Melee in that it can be played for years and years as along as Nintendo continues to support it.

I know that this is an old comment, but Valve is slooooooooooowwwww when it came to updating Tf2. They usually have major updates once every six months. And when they do have it it's usually just hats and cosmetics. No new weapons at all. They are complete ****e at balancing (Better nerf Heavy every update!). They completely lost half of their players in just one update (Meet Your Match) with 30-minute loading times, the removal of community servers (ya know, the best part of TF2), and forcing everyone to use a half-baked ranking system that had no reason to be in TF2 because there is no point to it. It didn't group you with more experienced players, it didn't offer any rewards for ranking up, and did I mention that it was ****ing stupid for Valve to shove this crap down in casual players throats?
TF2 is so bad at updates that it makes Smash 4 look like Melee in comparison to balancing patches.

 

[Kerthorok]

This is really random, but there's something that's been bugging me for a while. Do you all remember how early on it was said that Bowser's jab had its damage nerfed? Well I was going through Kurogane Hammer's Bowser data for Smash 4, and it says that Jab 1 does 5 base damage and Jab 2 does 6.5 base damage for 11.5 base damage in total. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bowser Well in Smash Ultimate in 1v1 format with no items, Bowser appears to deal 5 base damage with Jab 1 and 7.6 base damage for Jab 2, for a total of 12.6 base damage. https://youtu.be/bxl2vsEGkO0?t=17 This would appear to be a buff to his damage and not a nerf. Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

This is really random, but there's something that's been bugging me for a while. Do you all remember how early on it was said that Bowser's jab had its damage nerfed? Well I was going through Kurogane Hammer's Bowser data for Smash 4, and it says that Jab 1 does 5 base damage and Jab 2 does 6.5 base damage for 11.5 base damage in total. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bowser Well in Smash Ultimate in 1v1 format with no items, Bowser appears to deal 5 base damage with Jab 1 and 7.6 base damage for Jab 2, for a total of 12.6 base damage. https://youtu.be/bxl2vsEGkO0?t=17 This would appear to be a buff to his damage and not a nerf. Is there something I'm missing here?

Perhaps it is just an error on people who make analysises. I thought his damage got reduced as well. You're not missing anything if it's wrong ; in fact, I'm very happy to know it got buffed! Sure Jab doesn't combo anymore, but it's still one of Bowser's strongest neutral tools, so a damage buff is welcome.

 

[meleebrawler]

Does that first damage output consider freshness?

 

[Kerthorok]

Well if you consider the Pushblock Gaming video on Bowser which pushed this idea in the first place, you'll see in Smash 4 training mode, Bowser's Jab 1 deals an apparent 4% damage and Bowser's Jab 2 deals an apparent 7% damage for a total of 11% damage. https://youtu.be/aBz-8wzJAT8?t=100 Now obviously this does not take into account the fractional percentages, but even if you rounded it up to 12%, that's still less than the 12.6% in Smash Ultimate. And since attacks in training mode don't stale, and the excerpt for the Smash Ultimate jab is fresh, that would lead me to believe that the base damage in Ultimate is higher than it is in Smash 4.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This is really random, but there's something that's been bugging me for a while. Do you all remember how early on it was said that Bowser's jab had its damage nerfed? Well I was going through Kurogane Hammer's Bowser data for Smash 4, and it says that Jab 1 does 5 base damage and Jab 2 does 6.5 base damage for 11.5 base damage in total. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bowser Well in Smash Ultimate in 1v1 format with no items, Bowser appears to deal 5 base damage with Jab 1 and 7.6 base damage for Jab 2, for a total of 12.6 base damage. https://youtu.be/bxl2vsEGkO0?t=17 This would appear to be a buff to his damage and not a nerf. Is there something I'm missing here?

Remember that 1v1 matches with no items have a 20% damage buff. So if Bowser's Smash 4 jab 1 and 2 were put in ultimate and had freshness bonus, they'd deal 6.3% and ~8.2% damage. So our jab's base damage has been reduced in Ultimate, yet still deals more damage in total for Singles. Most of Bowser's moves have the same base damage as in 4, at least in the E3 build. I haven't been on the lookout for any further updates in that new demo we're getting footage of.

I tried to compile a list of damage tweaks on the first page, but some are incorrect because nobody knew that the presence of items turns off the 1v1 damage multiplier. For the full list of Bowser's damage tweaks: Jab combo is down, Air Fortress is down to about 18% base damage total - but now combos into itself for that full damage, and our grab pummel does less damage to compensate for being faster. Our grounded fortress, Dthrow, and Uthrow do more damage

Edit: oh yeah and our D-tilt is way down in damage which is to keep the knockback low.

 

[Kerthorok]

Remember that 1v1 matches with no items have a 20% damage buff. So if Bowser's Smash 4 jab 1 and 2 were put in ultimate and had freshness bonus, they'd deal 6.3% and ~8.2% damage. So our jab's base damage has been reduced in Ultimate, yet still deals more damage in total for Singles. Most of Bowser's moves have the same base damage as in 4, at least in the E3 build. I haven't been on the lookout for any further updates in that new demo we're getting footage of.

I tried to compile a list of damage tweaks on the first page, but some are incorrect because nobody knew that the presence of items turns off the 1v1 damage multiplier. For the full list of Bowser's damage tweaks: Jab combo is down, Air Fortress is down to about 18% base damage total - but now combos into itself for that full damage, and our grab pummel does less damage to compensate for being faster. Our grounded fortress, Dthrow, and Uthrow do more damage

Edit: oh yeah and our D-tilt is way down in damage which is to keep the knockback low.

I see that makes more sense. So even with the base damage nerfed, it still is effectively more damage in singles due to the 20% damage buff. I guess for some reason I thought they nerfed all the damage in FFAs/items, and then the 20% buff in 1v1 no items was to compensate for that nerf. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[meleebrawler]

Lots of spammable utilts (Mario, Kirby, Ryu etc) have been adjusted to have more base knockback or less optimal knockback angles in Ultimate, because spamming the same move over and over is boring for both players. But otherwise Low to mid% combos seem more potent compared to Smash 4 if for no other reason than characters spend less time in endlag/landing lag as well as having more options from a run and rise faster from their initial jump. I'm anticipating Bowser could landing F-air to a true dash grab at mid percents for instance. Should be handy since it's also got to be safe on block if your spacing isn't awful. N-air starfish combos are also going to be huge, especially falling N-air to true B-air, which was limited to sheik in 4 but can be executed ten frames faster due to five frames off our jumpsquat and five frames off our N-air landing lag. Imagine how busted our Uthrow would be if we rose to our max jump height quicker and left the ground five frames faster. Uthrow>B-air would just be free, and then Uthrow > D-air at the ledge.

As for high% combos, I'm thinking we'll see far less due to knockback velocity and how that ramps up so exponentially. Ultimate's initial labbing from players will probably be very focused on whether any true kill confirms exist at all. Then transition to a focus on how characters can 50/50 around dodge options or optimally mix attack strings. Tech chasing may also suddenly come back into vogue as well. When you tech chased in 4, it was usually just for a grab, but in this game your smash attacks are available from a run and some of those cover a ton of space. Plus there's that business about not being able to tech spikes when you're on the ground and that should open up new options for characters with autocancel D-airs.

In general I'm anticipating good combos at low percents with stray hits and perfect shield punishes for later percents - in addition to standard bait and punishes. Definitely curious how/if the engine may get tweaked before release, or even through patch updates which happened several times in Smash 4's case. From all the footage I've seen, I'm most concerned about shields and that inability to run through people but my opinions about knockback have improved considerably after seeing it more in action.

You know, if what you say is true... will people who want to see crazy-ish combos more play in Stamina? As far as I know everyone is essentially locked at 0% there, maximising combo potential. It probably won't be standard given it renders recovery an almost non-issue which could give a disproportionate advantage to those lacking in that department, but it could be an interestingly different meta.

 

[Kerthorok]

Bowser can TG Villager's Nair. Courtesy of Greward: https://twitter.com/Greward3/status/1061727185751474176

 

[S_B]

Bowser can TG Villager's Nair. Courtesy of Greward: https://twitter.com/Greward3/status/1061727185751474176

I'd like to see the rest of this video but I can't seem to find it on YouTube.

 

[S-bow64]

Hi everyone, it's been a while since I've come here.

So I came across this video, it's a month old but it has Bowser, no Items / smash gauge so it seem good enough. The gameplay seemed good too, don't know if it has been posted yet so sorry if that's the case.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JBM78czRpE


Here's some timestamps of what seemed interesting to me :

-0:28 : It look like we can maybe gain height on the Up-B ?

-0:36 and 0:58 : Squirtle was going toward Bowser but it look like the pivot grab range is still pretty strong and the vertical grab box look quite large too.

-2:33 no lag Nair ? Granted the animation looked finished but I like having a little bit of hope.

-2:35 : Either squirtle Fair have no knockback whatsoever or Bowser's shell have different properties. The same happen on 4:33 with Squirtle Dair or Nair ?

-3:47 : Bowser was over 100% but Ivysaur Nair did not make him flinch. I've heard Tough guy is no more % related so this might be proof, also Bowser was in crouch stance because of the landing. It might increase the value of tough guy too, you see it again at 7:40 during F-smash recovery frames. At 3:44 the Nair make him flinch so it might be useless or less potent in the air.

-6:27 : new get-up attack, quick sweep

-7:58 : You gotta slow down for this one, the Ivysaur tried to grab Bowser while he was in the air and Bowser used side-B which resulted in a grab break.

-8:57 : Pivot grab, Squirtle was extending hitself but I believe the hitbox was still effective. It resulted in a grab nonetheless.

-9:52 : Up-B doesn't snap from behind no more... Unless he held down during his recovery, who knows. ( nevermind 10:10 show that we still can, so he held down)

-9:54: Jab 1 seems to have a weird property, don't know if good, but the input for Jab 2 here took longer. We may be able to cancel it here into something else.


Well thats all I spotted, I wish he used Fire breath and D-smash even a little though. Nair doesn't connect at all it seems, pummel is fast so we might get a few extra % in early stocks. I don't think the lag on Fair is any different than before as we could always cancel it on a SH same for Bair, if Nair cancel on SH though that could be good but I've seen that it has almost no ending lag so maybe good for cross-up.

I'm not in awe or anything but we'll see when the game drop, at least we don't commit to jump now haha.

 

[Bynine]

are we aware if whirling fortress has less landing lag? it was something abysmal like 40 frames in smash 4, so i really hope it got tweaked

 

[S-bow64]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zYHsEtwNYs


This one must be known but it looks like Bowser's jab have no or almost no stun, it might also force opponent to face us on top of that.

It might be weight related if that is possible.

I don't think it's possible to do anything other than Jab2, we'll have either to do it quick everytime or get punished for it. It look like Samus's jab to be honest, that or Snake have some weird armor shenanigans going on.

Neutral B still have the windbox at the end (0:07).

 

[Kerthorok]

Hi everyone, it's been a while since I've come here.

So I came across this video, it's a month old but it has Bowser, no Items / smash gauge so it seem good enough. The gameplay seemed good too, don't know if it has been posted yet so sorry if that's the case.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JBM78czRpE


Here's some timestamps of what seemed interesting to me :

-0:28 : It look like we can maybe gain height on the Up-B ?

-0:36 and 0:58 : Squirtle was going toward Bowser but it look like the pivot grab range is still pretty strong and the vertical grab box look quite large too.

-2:33 no lag Nair ? Granted the animation looked finished but I like having a little bit of hope.

-2:35 : Either squirtle Fair have no knockback whatsoever or Bowser's shell have different properties. The same happen on 4:33 with Squirtle Dair or Nair ?

-3:47 : Bowser was over 100% but Ivysaur Nair did not make him flinch. I've heard Tough guy is no more % related so this might be proof, also Bowser was in crouch stance because of the landing. It might increase the value of tough guy too, you see it again at 7:40 during F-smash recovery frames. At 3:44 the Nair make him flinch so it might be useless or less potent in the air.

-6:27 : new get-up attack, quick sweep

-7:58 : You gotta slow down for this one, the Ivysaur tried to grab Bowser while he was in the air and Bowser used side-B which resulted in a grab break.

-8:57 : Pivot grab, Squirtle was extending hitself but I believe the hitbox was still effective. It resulted in a grab nonetheless.

-9:52 : Up-B doesn't snap from behind no more... Unless he held down during his recovery, who knows. ( nevermind 10:10 show that we still can, so he held down)

-9:54: Jab 1 seems to have a weird property, don't know if good, but the input for Jab 2 here took longer. We may be able to cancel it here into something else.


Well thats all I spotted, I wish he used Fire breath and D-smash even a little though. Nair doesn't connect at all it seems, pummel is fast so we might get a few extra % in early stocks. I don't think the lag on Fair is any different than before as we could always cancel it on a SH same for Bair, if Nair cancel on SH though that could be good but I've seen that it has almost no ending lag so maybe good for cross-up.

I'm not in awe or anything but we'll see when the game drop, at least we don't commit to jump now haha.

-0:28: Not sure. It looks like it snaps to ledge from pretty far below.

-2:33: Looks like the animation completed before Bowser landed on the platform if you slow it down.

-2:35 Not sure what's going on here, but I know Squirtle's attacks don't deal a terribly large amount of knockback.

-3:47: No one is entirely sure how TG works now. Maybe being grounded makes it stronger than in the air. Or maybe by charging smashes, Bowser has more armor. Note here how Bowser can armor through Fox's dair while charging an up smash https://youtu.be/k3r2wWOm-1Y?t=6, but not while airborne https://youtu.be/IMRVOeh4f9I?t=21.

-7:58: Command grabs can "clang" just like regular grabs in Ultimate.

-9:52: Ledge sweetspots have been nerfed, so maybe this is why it took longer to grab ledge.

-9:54: I'm assuming the player simply took longer to input the second jab by trying to jab cancel. Jab cancels are pretty much dead in Ultimate.

 

[Kerthorok]

are we aware if whirling fortress has less landing lag? it was something abysmal like 40 frames in smash 4, so i really hope it got tweaked

Up B does have less landing lag in Ultimate. It appears to be down to 36 frames now. Not a lot, but it's something.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hi everyone, it's been a while since I've come here.

So I came across this video, it's a month old but it has Bowser, no Items / smash gauge so it seem good enough. The gameplay seemed good too, don't know if it has been posted yet so sorry if that's the case.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JBM78czRpE


Here's some timestamps of what seemed interesting to me :

snip.

0:28. Looks normal to me. I can personally confirm Bowser can still fortress boost in Ultimate, so you have to mash to get max height. I can't say for sure if the mashing method is the same, however. Whether Bowser must pause for half a second or if he can begin mashing immediately.

0:36 and 0:58. Huh, those are good clips. The dash dance makes the pivot grab even more oppressive than before.

2:33. The animation was finished so that was an autocancel. Actual N-air landing lag is 15 in Ultimate which is a five frames improvement over the last game.

Tough Guy stuff. We don't really know what's up with Tough Guy in this game. Lots of our clips suggest Bowser armors more moves when grounded and especially in the middle of smash attacks. Or that he armors more moves with horizontal or auto hit angles. We'll need the game in our hands to figure out this mystery. All my theories have been refuted one time or another.

7:58. Grab clanks are new, and yes they can occur with command grabs and airborne grabs like our Side B.

are we aware if whirling fortress has less landing lag? it was something abysmal like 40 frames in smash 4, so i really hope it got tweaked

It was 50 in Smash 4. 36 in Ultimate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zYHsEtwNYs


This one must be known but it looks like Bowser's jab have no or almost no stun, it might also force opponent to face us on top of that.

It might be weight related if that is possible.

I don't think it's possible to do anything other than Jab2, we'll have either to do it quick everytime or get punished for it. It look like Samus's jab to be honest, that or Snake have some weird armor shenanigans going on.

It was weight related in Smash 4, and we assume that's still the case for Ultimate. But yeah, Bowser appears to have longer endlag on Jab 1 to discourage followup options. I'm still hopeful Jab > Side B is possible since that move is faster in this game.

 

[Kerthorok]

Honestly the mechanics of Tough Guy is the million dollar question. All we know for sure is that it is a hell of a lot better, however it works.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Hi everyone, it's been a while since I've come here.

So I came across this video, it's a month old but it has Bowser, no Items / smash gauge so it seem good enough. The gameplay seemed good too, don't know if it has been posted yet so sorry if that's the case.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JBM78czRpE


Here's some timestamps of what seemed interesting to me :

-0:28 : It look like we can maybe gain height on the Up-B ?

-0:36 and 0:58 : Squirtle was going toward Bowser but it look like the pivot grab range is still pretty strong and the vertical grab box look quite large too.

-2:33 no lag Nair ? Granted the animation looked finished but I like having a little bit of hope.

-2:35 : Either squirtle Fair have no knockback whatsoever or Bowser's shell have different properties. The same happen on 4:33 with Squirtle Dair or Nair ?

-3:47 : Bowser was over 100% but Ivysaur Nair did not make him flinch. I've heard Tough guy is no more % related so this might be proof, also Bowser was in crouch stance because of the landing. It might increase the value of tough guy too, you see it again at 7:40 during F-smash recovery frames. At 3:44 the Nair make him flinch so it might be useless or less potent in the air.

-6:27 : new get-up attack, quick sweep

-7:58 : You gotta slow down for this one, the Ivysaur tried to grab Bowser while he was in the air and Bowser used side-B which resulted in a grab break.

-8:57 : Pivot grab, Squirtle was extending hitself but I believe the hitbox was still effective. It resulted in a grab nonetheless.

-9:52 : Up-B doesn't snap from behind no more... Unless he held down during his recovery, who knows. ( nevermind 10:10 show that we still can, so he held down)

-9:54: Jab 1 seems to have a weird property, don't know if good, but the input for Jab 2 here took longer. We may be able to cancel it here into something else.


Well thats all I spotted, I wish he used Fire breath and D-smash even a little though. Nair doesn't connect at all it seems, pummel is fast so we might get a few extra % in early stocks. I don't think the lag on Fair is any different than before as we could always cancel it on a SH same for Bair, if Nair cancel on SH though that could be good but I've seen that it has almost no ending lag so maybe good for cross-up.

I'm not in awe or anything but we'll see when the game drop, at least we don't commit to jump now haha.

Thanks for the analysis. I was gonna post this set here because it is by far the highest skill we've seen of Bowser in Ultimate yet. T'was an amazing set.

 

[S_B]

TG is absolutely more effective on the ground. We've seen that many times over now. In fact, not sure it works in the air at all.

It also seems to no longer be % dependent, but the whole thing will require further testing later on.

Also, does fsmash come out any faster now?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Also, does fsmash come out any faster now?

Nope, but they shaved off 3 frames of endlag.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

What if TG Is now only dependant on the move and damage tanked whatever our current percentage?

 

[S-bow64]

Tough Guy might be related to the % of the attack received, I mean Villager slingshot do have some knockback and Bowser seem to be able to shrug it off.

There might be 3 or 4 state of Tough Guy each with it's own value : Standing, crouching, airborne and call me mad but I believe the Shell might have a Tough guy property of it's own or a unique property even.

On the video versus Snake at some point he manage to land a Bair on a grounded Bowser's back or Shell (0:10), granted it was the lingering hitbox and Bowser was at like 18% before the hit it's still Snake's Bair. Bowser took the hit, we can clearly see Bowser in hitstun but he didn't move at all and jabbed almost right away.

I mean he just took the hit like it was nothing, didn't move an inch. We don't know how much knockback Snake's late Bair have but it's still disturbing to see Bowser taking it like that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyZtcNMgE8U


Look at 0:16, one of Snake's Nair make Bowser flinch, right after that, Bowser air dodge to the left toward Snake with his back turned. Snake land the first hit of F-tilt ( I do remember it having almost no stun power though) on Bowser's Shell and right at the moment Snake was about to do the second hit you can see Bowser beginning to land his Side-B maybe he could have Up-B out of it.

Then again we can see Bowser take a full Nair on his Back and be in hitstun at 0:21.
There is a lot of intricacies in this game, like characters taking damage in water or King K having a bellybox armor so maybe I just want to see something. The wait is killing muh.

I'll keep looking though.


EDIT: Got some time at work here some new old stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02Nfdh32VjU

Casual match but at 2:39 Bowser tank Ryu F-tilt during the charging of D-smash. So some of you were right, charging smash attack give some kind of armor which is weird since I believe getting hit during charge is supposed to increase the knockback you take ?

 

[S_B]

Tough Guy might be related to the % of the attack received, I mean Villager slingshot do have some knockback and Bowser seem to be able to shrug it off.

There might be 3 or 4 state of Tough Guy each with it's own value : Standing, crouching, airborne and call me mad but I believe the Shell might have a Tough guy property of it's own or a unique property even.

On the video versus Snake at some point he manage to land a Bair on a grounded Bowser's back or Shell (0:10), granted it was the lingering hitbox and Bowser was at like 18% before the hit it's still Snake's Bair. Bowser took the hit, we can clearly see Bowser in hitstun but he didn't move at all and jabbed almost right away.

I mean he just took the hit like it was nothing, didn't move an inch. We don't know how much knockback Snake's late Bair have but it's still disturbing to see Bowser taking it like that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyZtcNMgE8U


Look at 0:16, one of Snake's Nair make Bowser flinch, right after that, Bowser air dodge to the left toward Snake with his back turned. Snake land the first hit of F-tilt ( I do remember it having almost no stun power though) on Bowser's Shell and right at the moment Snake was about to do the second hit you can see Bowser beginning to land his Side-B maybe he could have Up-B out of it.

Then again we can see Bowser take a full Nair on his Back and be in hitstun at 0:21.
There is a lot of intricacies in this game, like characters taking damage in water or King K having a bellybox armor so maybe I just want to see something. The wait is killing muh.

I'll keep looking though.


EDIT: Got some time at work here some new old stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02Nfdh32VjU

Casual match but at 2:39 Bowser tank Ryu F-tilt during the charging of D-smash. So some of you were right, charging smash attack give some kind of armor which is weird since I believe getting hit during charge is supposed to increase the knockback you take ?

Good catch.

I feel like this is going to take some heavy labbing before we get to the bottom it.

 

[Kerthorok]

I don't know if anyone has asked this yet, but what frame does nair come out on?

 

[S_B]

I'm thinking about it and I feel like Bowser is going to be relegated to mostly counterpick status, depending entirely upon TG giving him an edge in certain matchups.

I feel he'll still be strong against the Mario bros and Doc, plus Megaman and whoever else has a neutral that revolves around low knockback projectiles.

But it remains to be seen if that'll make Bowser a superior choice to KRool in those situations, since KKR can zone enemies out as well and has more reliable kill setups.

Ugh. I'm really going to need to play for a while before I decide if there's any point in putting time into Bowser at all. It's not that I think he'll be terrible, just that KKR's kit is kinda overloaded in comparison...

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm thinking about it and I feel like Bowser is going to be relegated to mostly counterpick status, depending entirely upon TG giving him an edge in certain matchups.

I feel he'll still be strong against the Mario bros and Doc, plus Megaman and whoever else has a neutral that revolves around low knockback projectiles.

But it remains to be seen if that'll make Bowser a superior choice to KRool in those situations, since KKR can zone enemies out as well and has more reliable kill setups.

Ugh. I'm really going to need to play for a while before I decide if there's any point in putting time into Bowser at all. It's not that I think he'll be terrible, just that KKR's kit is kinda overloaded in comparison...

K. Rool doesn't zone. His blunderbuss is too slow and the crown can be caught, meaning they're not threatening at all in long-range combat. Instead they're used to trap and condition in the mid-to-close range. He needs it too, because most of his footsies don't look nearly as safe as Bowser's; high endlag is common and his fair doesn't have the best hitbox.

Basically, play Bowser if you're mostly proactive, K. Rool if you're mostly reactive.

 

[S_B]

K. Rool doesn't zone. His blunderbuss is too slow and the crown can be caught, meaning they're not threatening at all in long-range combat. Instead they're used to trap and condition in the mid-to-close range. He needs it too, because most of his footsies don't look nearly as safe as Bowser's; high endlag is common and his fair doesn't have the best hitbox.

Basically, play Bowser if you're mostly proactive, K. Rool if you're mostly reactive.

I believe the crown can only be caught by characters like Villager with pocket.

But he can apply pressure from range as well as set up traps, and the cannonball negates many other projectiles, from what we've seen.

But really, it's that fact that it appears he gets a free fsmash/dsmash off a grab that makes him hard to pass up, not to mention having outright super armor on a number of moves.

Again, we'll see, but I feel like Bowser's kit just didn't get the love it needed this game, the endlag reduction being the most helpful this far.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Play who you want to play. This is a new smash bros game, that's a more compelling reason than any I can think of to play new characters. But I don't appreciate my guy getting put down for no good reason. Some new, untested squeeze like K Rool aint a good reason. If he throws that crown at me I'm dash attacking clean through to demand more respect - and get myself some fancy jewelry.