Q&A U WOT M8 - Shulk Q&A (READ THIS MESSAGE: PLEASE READ BEFORE MAKING A THREAD)

[Masonomace]

Can Shulk counter Mac's KO punch?

Nope

 

[Lord of Boxes]

What is Mighty air slash's negatives? I can't think of any

 

[Berserker.]

What is Mighty air slash's negatives? I can't think of any

It's short ranged and as an attack, it's hard to land therefore it's relatively useless for damaging or KOs

But as a recovery, it's amazing. It's only useful as a recovery

 

[adom4]

Can Shulk counter Mac's KO punch?

No, but i think it has some inv frames so it dodges it, not 100% sure.

 

[Berserker.]

Not sure about this but I think there's a certain window in counter wherein Shulk is intangible so if timed right, you completely avoid the KO punch

but seriously, don't counter KO punch. Just avoid it or land some hits on Mac or face it like a man and use shield

 

[Masonomace]

What is Mighty air slash's negatives? I can't think of any

I know Berserk answered already, but Mighty Air Slash's setbacks include:

• the second follow-up slash gives no horizontal recovery
• the lateral movement of the fallspecial moving left or right decreases
• the string of the two hits is more difficult to connect
• You have to FF this move as your only other option

 

[adom4]

What uses are there for monado jump outside of getting off stage kills & recovering?
I usually use speed to approach & i wanted some opinions on how to use jump to get closer.

 

[Berserker.]

What uses are there for monado jump outside of getting off stage kills & recovering?
I usually use speed to approach & i wanted some opinions on how to use jump to get closer.

Approaching or should I say, "Spacing while approaching"

Good for rushing down but always space with n-air

It kinda feels similar to speed in the way you use it

 

[Masonomace]

What uses are there for monado jump outside of getting off stage kills & recovering?
I usually use speed to approach & i wanted some opinions on how to use jump to get closer.

Berserker got it down, but here's more usage for MAJump:

1. Hit-and-run air mobility
   If you're moving forward & input SH+Nair, you hold backward on the circle pad after to move away to avoid any kind of punish
   
   
2. MAJump Star KOs
   Besides off-stage gimps or KOs, MAJump does very well in going for Star KOs from the immense jump height to follow-up from Uthrows or Utilts

 

[Berserker.]

NVM lol
10chars

 

[Claxus]

Do people know about how Shulk can instantly mirror his momentum by turning around in the air with Monado Arts as it activates? Haven't heard anything about it and it's not an advanced tech in the metagame thread.

 

[Berserker.]

Do people know about how Shulk can instantly mirror his momentum by turning around in the air with Monado Arts as it activates? Haven't heard anything about it and it's not an advanced tech in the metagame thread.

It was already mentioned in the later pages

 

[Masonomace]

Do people know about how Shulk can instantly mirror his momentum by turning around in the air with Monado Arts as it activates? Haven't heard anything about it and it's not an advanced tech in the metagame thread.

I noticed something in AlvisCPU's video match, & he was running as Vanilla Shulk, switched to MArt Speed, & did a 180 turn running the opposite direction as a result. He didn't skid, no lag occurred while turning. He just, ran from right to zoom zoom zooms left lagless. It's probably because of B-Reversing MArts

BRMArts is effective airborne & on the ground. It's very educational.

EDIT: THe bigger mystery to me is hearing small mentions that Shulk can WB his MArts, which I have yet to see. .

DOUBLE EDIT: So to answer the question, yes, I do know.

 

[Claxus]

Well, it's more or less like a wavebounce. It's weird, I run at the enemy and jump (facing them), and use the pseudo-wavebounce MA tech thing to change my direction away from them as I use B-air. Shulk will turn around and rocket to the opposite side while using B-air towards the opponent. Basically, it's like the game registered B-air, and turned me around at the same time. I think that's pretty much the WB you've heard about.

But it's not consistent. Sometimes he'll turn around and do F-air with his previous momentum mirrored. The timing's extremely strict I guess.

 

[Masonomace]

Well, it's more or less like a wavebounce. It's weird, I run at the enemy and jump (facing them), and use the pseudo-wavebounce MA tech thing to change my direction away from them as I use B-air. Shulk will turn around and rocket to the opposite side while using B-air towards the opponent. Basically, it's like the game registered B-air, and turned me around at the same time. I think that's pretty much the WB you've heard about.

But it's not consistent. Sometimes he'll turn around and do F-air with his previous momentum mirrored. The timing's extremely strict I guess.

I dig this, but damn, my Missourian motto is coming out. . .

: I'm from Missouri, Show-Me ya video!

EDIT: Actually yeah that's quirky for a WB input + B-air. It's probably because MArts doesn't outright activate instantly when you're pressing B because it's a cycling roulette kind of thing, so the delay of waiting to WB & inputting B-air almost simultaneously when the WB input is you slide the circle pad back to your original-facing direction pressing A on the fly. Right?

 

[Claxus]

Well, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying lol, sorry. But I threw together a replay here to show what I meant.

It's done just by starting up the arts, then pressing a direction and attack at the same moment that the art activates. He'll instantly shift in that direction doing the aerial. Sometimes he does F-air in his new direction, and sometimes he'll do the aerial from his original direction, but reversed. The first two instances of the tech in the video, respectively.

I messed up for a while in the video, but eventually show it somewhat works with his down-b. And technically his other specials, but those are even more pointless.

 

[Berserker.]

Thanks for the video!

I'll post this in the metagame thread

 

[Eagleye893]

Is it just me or is shulk's grab range really short? I've been having trouble grabbing people.

 

[Berserker.]

Is it just me or is shulk's grab range really short? I've been having trouble grabbing people.

Pretty much every character's grab range is short in this game. Except for Zelda and Palutena.

Pivot grabbing solves this though. A lot. Especially when using speed

 

[Masonomace]

Is it just me or is shulk's grab range really short? I've been having trouble grabbing people.

It's range is not impressive, you're likely to be dash+grabbing or pivot grabbing.

Though if you have Speed mode active, then the grab-game despite the below-decent grab range, is exceptional.

 

[Masonomace]

Vision activated when a move or projectile from behind, Shulk will turn around, but, now a question for something different:

• If Shulk Vision counters a projectile from behind & a different character is behind Shulk at a reachable distance, will Shulk hit that person?

 

[Berserker.]

Vision activated when a move or projectile from behind, Shulk will turn around, but, now a question for something different:

• If Shulk Vision counters a projectile from behind & a different character is behind Shulk at a reachable distance, will Shulk hit that person?

If you front input if, probably

 

[DiverseStyle]

So after getting beaten badly so many times as Shulk, I finally figured out what I was doing wrong which was overusing smash attacks way too much. But then I almost completely stopped using smashes in general and used Shulk's tilts instead and started performing MUCH better. So what I want to ask is the following:

1. When is the "proper" time to use smashes? It seems that even I use them as a means of punishing, the opponent still ends up being able to dodge away or shield because of the attacks' delays. F-smash I never seem to get the second hit off and the beam doesn't "connect," U-smash doesn't have that great of a horizontal range, and D-smash only seems effective against opponents rolling or people who don't know its range or how long it lasts. Unless my opponent whiffs a move that has a ton of ending lag, I usually avoid smashes altogether.

2. What are some practical/proper applications of Shulk's tilts? Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I've found so far that U-tilt is a superb anti-air move, D-tilt is good in general for catching opponents, for a lack of better terminology on my part, and F-tilt is a reliable KO move as well.

 

[Berserker.]

The proper time to use smashes is for punishing. Especially rolls and spot dodges. Also, f-smash is great for edgeguarding and same goes for d-smash. U-smash is great when the opponent ledge hops

The Second hit should connect more now thanks to the patch (Global DI modifier was adjusted according to Dantarion)

You're on the spot with the tilts. Also, F-tilt is also good for catching but I find a spaced d-tilt much more reliable.

 

[DiverseStyle]

The proper time to use smashes is for punishing. Especially rolls and spot dodges. Also, f-smash is great for edgeguarding and same goes for d-smash. U-smash is great when the opponent ledge hops

The Second hit should connect more now thanks to the patch (Global DI modifier was adjusted according to Dantarion)

You're on the spot with the tilts. Also, F-tilt is also good for catching but I find a spaced d-tilt much more reliable.

Thanks for the response! Is there a general angle of F-smash seems to connect better? Such as the does the middle F-smash's 2nd attack connect more than the downward or upward F-smash?

 

[Berserker.]

Thanks for the response! Is there a general angle of F-smash seems to connect better? Such as the does the middle F-smash's 2nd attack connect more than the downward or upward F-smash?

I don't know. lol. I've used f-smash a bunch of times with several angles and only missed one out of many of 'em

 

[Masonomace]

Is there a general angle of F-smash seems to connect better? Such as the does the middle F-smash's 2nd attack connect more than the downward or upward F-smash?

Hmmm. . .it depends on the character, & what they're doing during the F-smash's two hits. See, if a player / character were to vector downward, or they crouch before being hit, a angled upward F-smash is huge no-no, especially if it's a character like Mr. G&W, Kirby, or Jigglypuff. They can crouch under your F-smash & punish you with their strong KO options. Rest, Judgement 6 - 9, any of their F-smash, etc..

So for low-grounded tiny characters, or characters that have a very low crouch animation, do not angle your F-smash upwards. Always straight or downward

For Huge characters like Bowser & Ganondorf, or tall characters like Rosalina & Samus, you may not want to angle your F-smash downwards because the hit may prop them up if they notice you tilting it down. They could vector upward, possibly allowing them to jump out & escape before the 2nd hit follows.

So for big, or tall characters, do not aim your F-smash downwards. Always straight or upward.

 

[DiverseStyle]

Hmmm. . .it depends on the character, & what they're doing during the F-smash's two hits. See, if a player / character were to vector downward, or they crouch before being hit, a angled upward F-smash is huge no-no, especially if it's a character like Mr. G&W, Kirby, or Jigglypuff. They can crouch under your F-smash & punish you with their strong KO options. Rest, Judgement 6 - 9, any of their F-smash, etc..

So for low-grounded tiny characters, or characters that have a very low crouch animation, do not angle your F-smash upwards. Always straight or downward

For Huge characters like Bowser & Ganondorf, or tall characters like Rosalina & Samus, you may not want to angle your F-smash downwards because the hit may prop them up if they notice you tilting it down. They could vector upward, possibly allowing them to jump out & escape before the 2nd hit follows.

So for big, or tall characters, do not aim your F-smash downwards. Always straight or upward.

That is very helpful, thank-you! On hindsight, I recall many tall characters vectoring upwards when the 2nd hit of my F-smash was aimed downwards, which explains a lot. I'll keep all this in mind.

 

[SN3AK]

I would actually Argue from experience that Buster arts gives you amazing combo game, even at high percents you can reliably combo your up throw into up-Tilts and down throw into jabs

 

[Masonomace]

I would actually Argue from experience that Buster arts gives you amazing combo game, even at high percents you can reliably combo your up throw into up-Tilts and down throw into jabs

So. . .where's your question?

For Buster, I find better success in actually combo'ing once their percentage is around ~30% until I feel like doing some good strings & follow-ups.

 

[DiverseStyle]

So I'm having trouble defending myself when I get knocked into the air. Is it best to just try and air dodge back into the ground, or attempt to defend myself with Nair or something? Particularly, I struggle with R&L players; that Fair or whatever dumb move where she flip-kicks in the air always gets me.

 

[Claxus]

There's not really a 'best' way to come back down, but there's some good options. First, it's usually a good idea to just air dodge down as it's safest neutral option. Make sure to throw out N-air ASAP as it will cancel any air dodge landing lag.

If they're really up in your grill, consider switching to Jump. It'll give you amazing air speed and fall speed to maneuver a quick and safe landing.

If you know they'll go for an aerial, you could try to go down directly on them with D-air, or try to zone them out with F-air.

I wouldn't really recommend falling with N-air offensively, being chased in the air is not a great position to use it. But always try to land with it.

If you're really feeling it, a backslash can catch anyone off guard as you crash down when they chase you, but use it only as a one use trump card.

But really, coming down with Jump tends to be the safest, followed by air dodge > N-air.

 

[Masonomace]

Since Speed mode logically increasing our movement speed & air speed:

• Would throwing an item while Speed is active increase our sliding distance in any way if we:
  
  a. Jump Cancel throw in any direction?
  b. Attempt Glide-tossing? (which isn't in SSB4 afaik, but doing so looks like you're stutter stepping more than anything)
  c. Pivot Cancel throw?
  d. Dash Attack Cancel Item Throw? (DACIT)
  e. Input any possible Item Throw technique there is?

 

[DiverseStyle]

Hello again Shulk community, got a few more questions:

1. What are Shulk’s best killing options outside of Smashes, preferably in vanilla form? I thought F-Tilt would be reliable, but sometimes I feel it’s slow (?) and it tends to kill around 150%, which is too late for me.

If Smashes are the best killing option, what is the best time punish using them? I find that even after a shielded dash attack or whiffed grab, the Smashes are still too slow and my opponent can still shield or spot dodge. That being said, which Smash attack has the shortest startup time and ending lag?

2. What do you do about opponents that play keep-away when you’re using Buster or Smash? I’ve run into multiple opponents that either run away or roll away constantly when I’m using them and just wait for the Art to run out. I find I can only get things done in vanilla form or Speed Art.

3. This is a bit broad but how do you properly fight using Buster? I tend to refrain from this form because if my opponent isn’t keeping their distance, it usually backfires on me when they pummel me and the damage just racks up. Are there moves you should refrain from using while in Buster or are there certain moves that are safer to use while using this Art?

Thanks again!

 

[Claxus]

Hello again Shulk community, got a few more questions:

1. What are Shulk’s best killing options outside of Smashes, preferably in vanilla form? I thought F-Tilt would be reliable, but sometimes I feel it’s slow (?) and it tends to kill around 150%, which is too late for me.

If Smashes are the best killing option, what is the best time punish using them? I find that even after a shielded dash attack or whiffed grab, the Smashes are still too slow and my opponent can still shield or spot dodge. That being said, which Smash attack has the shortest startup time and ending lag?

2. What do you do about opponents that play keep-away when you’re using Buster or Smash? I’ve run into multiple opponents that either run away or roll away constantly when I’m using them and just wait for the Art to run out. I find I can only get things done in vanilla form or Speed Art.

3. This is a bit broad but how do you properly fight using Buster? I tend to refrain from this form because if my opponent isn’t keeping their distance, it usually backfires on me when they pummel me and the damage just racks up. Are there moves you should refrain from using while in Buster or are there certain moves that are safer to use while using this Art?

Thanks again!

Shulk doesn't have much in vanilla besides smashes. F-tilt and gimping is about it, maybe B-air, but that's also late. Gotta get into the habit of using Smash, or fishing for those gimps off stage with that amazing F-air.

So vanilla, it's mainly F-tilt or smashes. F-smash and D-smash are good, but have horribly long animations, so you can only really use them for big openings or good reads. U-smash is slightly quicker overall and has nice killing power, so it's probably your best offensive bet if you're in range.

Shulk is a character that really needs good plays for KOs, sadly, he can't get easy stocks. I'd really advise incorporating his Arts for KOs, since vanilla really lacks there.

For Buster, it's pretty rough if they go purely evasive. Gonna just have to try to catch them with those long range aerials, or a good D-smash which is the best anti-roll thing ever. But you can't do much besides N-air that won't leave you very open. If they run, don't bother too much. Just use Buster against them as psychological warfare.

Buster is sort of a passive stance. You can't afford to get too aggressive since Shulk's not any safer, but your opponent has to respect it, too. It's actually preferable if they rush you, because you can rack up huge damage by just zoning with Buster. Going offensive, spaced N-airs, grabs, and air-to-air are key for Buster. Most other options are too dangerous to go for.

 

[Masonomace]

1. What are Shulk’s best killing options outside of Smashes, preferably in vanilla form? I thought F-Tilt would be reliable, but sometimes I feel it’s slow (?) and it tends to kill around 150%, which is too late for me.

If Smashes are the best killing option, what is the best time punish using them? I find that even after a shielded dash attack or whiffed grab, the Smashes are still too slow and my opponent can still shield or spot dodge. That being said, which Smash attack has the shortest startup time and ending lag?

Vanilla KO options that work for me varies, because weight classes & stage size affecting blast lines / low or high ceilings, but my options:
a. D-air sweet-spotted Meteor effect off-stage
b. B-air sweet-spotted
c. F-tilt
e. Smash attacks

I wouldn't say smash attacks are the best KO options because they obviously have some questionable end lag, & mis-timed are pretty bad, but despite all that the best times to use them are obviously for an obvious landing punishes, D-smash for rolls, stuff like that. Unless you powershield a dash attack & turn around F-smash, or OoS > U-smash, I would advise turn around jab, grabbing, or using a turn-around F-tilt to punish. The second question about the smash attacks' start-up & endlag, I can't tell you exact numbers, & don't take my full word for this, but I feel F-smash's 1st hit comes out the fastest start-up, & U-smash for the fastest endlag. (Again don't take my full word on this, I'm not too confident on this since I can't test this right now)

2. What do you do about opponents that play keep-away when you’re using Buster or Smash? I’ve run into multiple opponents that either run away or roll away constantly when I’m using them and just wait for the Art to run out. I find I can only get things done in vanilla form or Speed Art.

This varies for me, but I tend to chase them with a forwarded momentum SH > B-air in hoping to poke them while they run / roll away. If it's a fast-running character don't sweat it, just acquire stage control & proceed zoning them out with SH > N-airs. As an alternative answer to the rolling, I would just read it & run straight for their possible routes of escape. You sure as hell don't want to have Shield mode on for this because reasons I don't need to explain unless you're in the lead, then take it slow & bubble shield any projectiles & prolong the match the way you see fit.

3. This is a bit broad but how do you properly fight using Buster? I tend to refrain from this form because if my opponent isn’t keeping their distance, it usually backfires on me when they pummel me and the damage just racks up. Are there moves you should refrain from using while in Buster or are there certain moves that are safer to use while using this Art?

Buster imo is character-based, meaning I don't always use it in every fight I go into. Fighting properly with Buster to me means playing very defensively, passively, & patiently. Play accordingly like you would with Vanilla, but safer, super-spacing your N-airs. What I highly recommend is using pummels when you get grabs. Pummeling is a godsend considering passive-defensive play-style & it deals 4%, so always at least pummel once then quickly throw them away when they pass ~20%. Buster's risky when you involve smash attacks, because even the shield-stun from them don't make it safe sometimes. Jabs, B-air, N-air, & Tilts are the way to go since your damage output increases; it's fine to be hitting with the Beam portion in your tilts anyhow.

Thanks again!

My replies are in the quote.

 

[DiverseStyle]

Shulk doesn't have much in vanilla besides smashes. F-tilt and gimping is about it, maybe B-air, but that's also late. Gotta get into the habit of using Smash, or fishing for those gimps off stage with that amazing F-air.

So vanilla, it's mainly F-tilt or smashes. F-smash and D-smash are good, but have horribly long animations, so you can only really use them for big openings or good reads. U-smash is slightly quicker overall and has nice killing power, so it's probably your best offensive bet if you're in range.

Shulk is a character that really needs good plays for KOs, sadly, he can't get easy stocks. I'd really advise incorporating his Arts for KOs, since vanilla really lacks there.

For Buster, it's pretty rough if they go purely evasive. Gonna just have to try to catch them with those long range aerials, or a good D-smash which is the best anti-roll thing ever. But you can't do much besides N-air that won't leave you very open. If they run, don't bother too much. Just use Buster against them as psychological warfare.

Buster is sort of a passive stance. You can't afford to get too aggressive since Shulk's not any safer, but your opponent has to respect it, too. It's actually preferable if they rush you, because you can rack up huge damage by just zoning with Buster. Going offensive, spaced N-airs, grabs, and air-to-air are key for Buster. Most other options are too dangerous to go for.

My replies are in the quote.

As usual, you two are really helpful! I never thought of using Buster in that manner, I guessed that you had to be aggressive with that Art. And Claxus, since vanilla Shulk has limited kill options, do you recommend being in Smash Art to kill? I always feel that Smash is an all-in strategy, but are you given more options to kill at lower percentages then?

 

[Berserker.]

Just adding but you can also go for the kill with jump art by edgeguarding or gimping

Some players have gotten most of their kills from jump art

I think I love all arts equally now

 

[Claxus]

Well, Smash is the preferred way to kill in a lot of cases. Getting kills with a fairly fast F-tilt and U-tilt around 110-140% with Smash is one of Shulk's best finishing options IMO, removing a need of his slow smash attacks, but it's still a bit hard to pull off. B-air is pretty good and stronger than those, but generally unsafe. Sometimes it's a bit too risky or hard to get a KO during Smash, but it can make F-airs and N-airs and other attacks at least push them more off stage into your advantage, more knockback doesn't just mean direct KOs.

Shulk's edgeguarding game is one of the best, and a lot of your KOs will probably come from that. That F-air range just dominates off stage and you don't need any precision with it. Jump is definitely good for securing KOs once they're out there. You can easily chase characters at the off-screen section or even top and lower corners with a F-air and still make it back. Don't be afraid to jump out, or walk off stage to dig deep. One good F-air will gimp many characters. With Smash, even F-air can KO off-stage at later percents. Sometimes you can fake them out and hit B-air behind you to stage spike them. And don't forget about the D-air spike or even footstools. It's surprisingly easy to go for once enemies are conditioned to your F-airs.

Smash and Jump are his best options to finish off stocks. But anyway, even vanilla Shulk has awesome edgeguarding.

Oh, and Vision. Can't forget that his counter has the best KO potential, pretty amazing trump card sometimes, especially with Smash if they try to use its downside against you.

 

[DiverseStyle]

Great advice, Claxus, 90% of my kills definitely come from edge guarding/gimping now; Jump really alleviates the fear of going off stage.

The next problem I'm having isn't necesarily exclusive to Shulk, but it's about what to do when you fall behind. I know it's a general mentality that when you're behind a stock you lose your calm, but I'm wondering if there's any advice on anything particularly Shulk can do in this situation. If my opponent is 110%+, it's really a simple matter of going into Smash, but if they're only say 70% or even less, it gets harder to close the gap, especially with fast characters like Sheik that can pressure me easily. Thanks again!