Q&A U WOT M8 - Shulk Q&A (READ THIS MESSAGE: PLEASE READ BEFORE MAKING A THREAD)

[Berserker.]

New question(s):

1. Can anyone find out if Shulk's MArts are still in effect when activating his Final Smash: Chain Attack?

If so,
1.a. how much total % damage does each Art (Speed Shield Buster) deal when using Chain Attack?

And to go the extra mile,
1.b. what changes about Chain Attack when using all of the MArts?

I can test that

Oh and here's my new favorite arts rank

Buster > Jump > Speed > Smash > Shield

 

[g00dapollo]

What are Shulk's best kill moves?

 

[Masonomace]

What are Shulk's best kill moves?

Shulk's Smash Art improves & augments his already decent KO potential to be even stronger, but Regular Shulk's Grounded Kill moves in no particular order:

1. Ftilt
2. Fsmash
3. Usmash
4. Dsmash

Best Aerial Kill move:

1. Bair

Hope that helped.

 

[Claxus]

Can Shulk's N-air be totally safe on block? I didn't think it was, but yesterday I played against someone who was trying to punish all my aerials with shield-grab. I tried delaying the N-air to hit just as I land, and I seemed to be able to spot-dodge or even jab before their grab came out. Not sure if it's virtually unpunishable if you delay the hit just as you land (or at least extremely airtight), or if their timing was off.

 

[Masonomace]

Can Shulk's N-air be totally safe on block? I didn't think it was, but yesterday I played against someone who was trying to punish all my aerials with shield-grab. I tried delaying the N-air to hit just as I land, and I seemed to be able to spot-dodge or even jab before their grab came out. Not sure if it's virtually unpunishable if you delay the hit just as you land (or at least extremely airtight), or if their timing was off.

Welcome to smashboards, happy 1st post.
The reality is Nair landing isn't guaranteed safe. People can shield+grab your Nair landings given Shulk doesn't space them with the Beam portion. PowerShielding+grab is the super version of regular shield+grabs & can definitely punish Nair, but poorly timed grabs after shielding usually is why Shulk's get away with Nair most of the time. If you're challenging a character's Out of Shield Jump Canceled Up Special option such as Marth or Lucina, you will be hit before recovering from the Nair as well.

 

[wizardto1]

Now I don't have the game yet, but looking at footage, I get really confused on how do you pick a Monado Art.
So is it a predetermined continuing roulette or can you select and switch it?

 

[Masonomace]

Pressing once starts the cycle of Monado Arts with Jump. The cycle pattern is predetermined set-in-stone:

1. Jump
2. Speed
3. Shield
4. Buster
5. Smash
6. Jump
7. Speed. . . .etc.etc.

Example: You haven't activated Monado Arts yet but you want to get to Shield, so you press 3x & wait for the Art to activate itself. When you want to cancel the Art you simply press 2 - 3x. Atm there's no further info I'm aware of that helps us activate the Art faster other than itself activating on its own time.

 

[wizardto1]

Ah, you could of asked me in the Q&A thread. D:
Pressing once starts the cycle of Monado Arts with Jump. The cycle pattern is predetermined set-in-stone:

1. Jump
2. Speed
3. Shield
4. Buster
5. Smash
6. Jump
7. Speed. . . .etc.etc.

Example: You haven't activated Monado Arts yet but you want to get to Shield, so you press 3x & wait for the Art to activate itself. When you want to cancel the Art you simply press 2 - 3x. Atm there's no further info I'm aware of that helps us activate the Art faster other than itself activating on its own time.

Oh, Ok! Although I'm a bit confused with your wording on how to cancel it. Like I supposed to press B to change arts but press it faster makes the art canceled?

 

[Masonomace]

Oh, Ok! Although I'm a bit confused with your wording on how to cancel it. Like I supposed to press B to change arts but press it faster makes the art canceled?

Here's more rundown on MArts:

They last averagely for 15 - 16 seconds, but you can opt to change / switch the Art off & choose another Art to use if you desired. So to switch the Art off aka cancel it, you press 2- 3 times. Rapidly pressing the buttons will cancel the Art faster than just pressing the button casually slow. Muscle memory will serve you well

 

[Berserker.]

@ Masonomace

Arts affect final smash damage

 

[1FC0]

So I was battling a Little Mac and he got his KO Meter full and decided to go for a very predictable KO Punch. So I tried using Vison Counter to hit his weak spot for massive damage but I got owned instead.

So was my timing off or does Vison Counter not work on KO Punch?

 

[Masonomace]

@ Masonomace

Arts affect final smash damage

yes yes yes yes Ty boo

So I was battling a Little Mac and he got his KO Meter full and decided to go for a very predictable KO Punch. So I tried using Vison Counter to hit his weak spot for massive damage but I got owned instead.

So was my timing off or does Vison Counter not work on KO Punch?

You'd need to send me the video if you recorded it.

I can't answer this perfectly until I have the footage of it. "I'm from Missouri Show Me"

BUT If I could answer based on hypothesis, I'd give two things:

1. Little Mac's OHKO Punch on the ground is a command freeze-frame attack that cannot be countered or shielded against
2. Vision was mis-timed if it does work against Little Mac's OHKO Punch

 

[Claxus]

Welcome to smashboards, happy 1st post.
The reality is Nair landing isn't guaranteed safe. People can shield+grab your Nair landings given Shulk doesn't space them with the Beam portion. PowerShielding+grab is the super version of regular shield+grabs & can definitely punish Nair, but poorly timed grabs after shielding usually is why Shulk's get away with Nair most of the time. If you're challenging a character's Out of Shield Jump Canceled Up Special option such as Marth or Lucina, you will be hit before recovering from the Nair as well.

Good to know, at least it's still pretty dang safe for what it is, and with proper backwards spacing it may be unpunishable. But it's kind of awkward how he has no aerials that can finish their animation within a full hop.

And thanks for the welcome. Finally felt like joining a community with this game's much improved online where I can actually play competitively outside of a few friends

And another question, is there a topic discussing Shulk's 'wavebounce' thing with his arts? I saw it mentioned in a topic just once in passing, but I've only done it myself accidentally and can't really replicate it, and it actually was very helpful in those situations as the sudden momentum change made falling back to the stage safely a breeze.

 

[Masonomace]

Good to know, at least it's still pretty dang safe for what it is, and with proper backwards spacing it may be unpunishable. But it's kind of awkward how he has no aerials that can finish their animation within a full hop.

And thanks for the welcome. Finally felt like joining a community with this game's much improved online where I can actually play competitively outside of a few friends

And another question, is there a topic discussing Shulk's 'wavebounce' thing with his arts? I saw it mentioned in a topic just once in passing, but I've only done it myself accidentally and can't really replicate it, and it actually was very helpful in those situations as the sudden momentum change made falling back to the stage safely a breeze.

Definitely, Nair is love & life. Spacing with the very tip of the Beam in Nair is extremely safe & it does the most % damage in that move. And I also find the FH+aerials weird too. However you can cancel their landing by landing with Nair at the end, FH+Bair is a prime example & there is a thread in Shulk's boards discussing about it.

Yw to the max, being a decent person is what I do.

Answer: I have yet to see this said topic about Wavebounced Monado Arts or aka WBMArts. I could of recalled noticing it once but I don't remember.

 

[1FC0]

yes yes yes yes Ty boo

You'd need to send me the video if you recorded it.

I can't answer this perfectly until I have the footage of it. "I'm from Missouri Show Me"

BUT If I could answer based on hypothesis, I'd give two things:

1. Little Mac's OHKO Punch on the ground is a command freeze-frame attack that cannot be countered or shielded against
2. Vision was mis-timed if it does work against Little Mac's OHKO Punch

Too bad that I did not record it. Also too bad that KO Punch might not be counterable. Countering it would be awesome.

 

[averioste]

How to fight people that just shieldgrab everything?

 

[Masonomace]

How to fight people that just shieldgrab everything?

You play safe & space your landings with Nair's Beam portion. Shulk has the range to play mid-distance so if you get shield+grabbed it's because your Nairs aren't spaced well enough. Another tactic of preventing getting shield+grabbed is to let them come to you & bait them in. I'll answer more thoroughly if you give me a video to critique for ya.

Also I'm a day late, but welcome to smashboards.

EDIT: Also if you're getting shield+grabbed because of using ShortHop or FullHop aerials that isn't Nair, you have bad landing lag & thus you get punished with shield+grab. Avoid using those laggy landing aerials unless you cancel most of the landing lag with Nair. Nair is a great thing to do.

 

[Berserker.]

yes yes yes yes Ty boo

You'd need to send me the video if you recorded it.

I can't answer this perfectly until I have the footage of it. "I'm from Missouri Show Me"

BUT If I could answer based on hypothesis, I'd give two things:

1. Little Mac's OHKO Punch on the ground is a command freeze-frame attack that cannot be countered or shielded against
2. Vision was mis-timed if it does work against Little Mac's OHKO Punch

Mac's KO punch can't be countered at all

 

[Masonomace]

Mac's KO punch can't be countered at all

Excellent. Good knowing it now than seeing others attempt to try a year from now so that's always eggcelent.

My question:

What are Shulk's Final Smash % damages when augmented with Speed, Shield, Buster, & Smash?

Vanilla Shulk's Chain Attack is 40% damage in total & I thought about adding Final Smash to the Move-set % table kudos to Aero, you, & Soul for it.

Edited twice:
I had an Interesting thought about the stat Jump Height. I have several questions for anyone who's available to answer since I'm not with my friend to help test all this & confirm it for myself.

Jump Height is a well-known stat that's affected by Jump, Speed, & Shield so:

1. Does Jump increase the jump height of Shulk's Shield Break Jump?
   Bonus ones:
2. Does Shield & Speed decrease the jump height of Shulk's Shield Break Jump?
3. Does Shulk's Footstool Jump increase in jump height when the Jump Art is active?
4. Does Shulk's Footstool Jump decrease in jump height when the Speed or Shield Art is active?

Why I ask is If a higher jumping Shield Break Jump is real thanks to Jump, then the practical but very rare usage of it would be to measure whether the height reaches Battle Field's upper top platform or not, thus we can have an extra moment of mashing to possibly escape if it reaches ofc.

Shield Breaks shouldn't occur that much especially with Shield due to it's increased shield strength / HP, but I thought I'd ask.

 

[Claxus]

Checked out those numbers for the final smashes:
Speed
2%, 1%, 2%, 1%, 1%, 2%, 1% 2%, 1%, 2%, 1% 9%, 3%
Total % damage: 28%

Shield
2%, 1%, 1%, 2%, 1%, 2%, 1%, 1%, 2%, 1%, 2%, 8%, 3%
Total % damage: 27%

Buster
4%, 3%, 2%, 3%, 3%, 3%, 3%, 2%, 3%, 3%, 3%, 16%, 7%
Total % damage: 55%

Smash
1%, 2%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%,1%, 1%, 6%, 3%
Total % damage: 20%

I also tried out the above stuff about jumps. Not very professionally, but interestingly enough, it turned out that both the footstool jumps and shield breaks in Jump reduced the height. Shield and Speed seemed identical to me for both, though.

 

[Masonomace]

Checked out those numbers for the final smashes:
Speed
2%, 1%, 2%, 1%, 1%, 2%, 1% 2%, 1%, 2%, 1% 9%, 3%
Total % damage: 28%

Shield
2%, 1%, 1%, 2%, 1%, 2%, 1%, 1%, 2%, 1%, 2%, 8%, 3%
Total % damage: 27%

Buster
4%, 3%, 2%, 3%, 3%, 3%, 3%, 2%, 3%, 3%, 3%, 16%, 7%
Total % damage: 55%

Smash
1%, 2%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%,1%, 1%, 6%, 3%
Total % damage: 20%

I also tried out the above stuff about jumps. Not very professionally, but interestingly enough, it turned out that both the footstool jumps and shield breaks in Jump reduced the height. Shield and Speed seemed identical to me for both, though.

I like the Final Smash % numbers, these numbers are all fresh augmented with MArts during Training Mode or in a Solo Brawl with a computer?

And as for your test with the footstool jump, I wanna make sure & confirm if you held the jump button that you used when footstooling.
Apologies if you already knew, but holding the jump button(s) while footstooling makes your jump muuuuuuuch higher. The Jump height reduced by Jump mode during the Shield Break Jump is interesting actually, did not expect that at all.

 

[Claxus]

Got them in Training Mode with customs off. Used the 1/4-speed-while-holding L function to type out the percents of each hit as they occurred one by one, and reset in between, so yeah, it's all fresh from 0%.

And for the footstool jumps, I actually found that out while testing the jump heights, so I did take it into account. Jump gives Shulk extra gravity despite being lighter, right? With that considered, it makes sense. The footstool jump just probably isn't considered a 'jump', so he moves the same amount but with more gravity, and same with the shield breaking.

 

[Masonomace]

Got them in Training Mode with customs off. Used the 1/4-speed-while-holding L function to type out the percents of each hit as they occurred one by one, and reset in between, so yeah, it's all fresh from 0%.

And for the footstool jumps, I actually found that out while testing the jump heights, so I did take it into account. Jump gives Shulk extra gravity despite being lighter, right? With that considered, it makes sense. The footstool jump just probably isn't considered a 'jump', so he moves the same amount but with more gravity, and same with the shield breaking.

Eggcelent for the Final Smash numbers, I'll get right on that move-set table in the Metagame thread & update it with you credited. Thanks to the max Clax.
One more question for now:

• What did you think of Shulk's Smash Art augmented Final Smash's last hit in regards to the knockback of the final hit? And what % did the test dummy need to be at for it to KO at?

Other than that question, I feel a bit down footstool jump's vertical height isn't really increased, for the sole reason to just travel lateral distance & footstool gimp characters that could still recover from very low in the Pit of the stage, but it doesn't bother me much now. Actually I'm more down that the jump height from the Shield Break Jump didn't increase, but it does make sense.

 

[Claxus]

Just to clarify, the footstool just isn't not increased, it goes about roughly 2/3 or 3/4 of the vanilla footstool. With precision it could still be a valid tactic though, since you can drop down onto them faster in Jump and still make it out if you kept your double jump.

The final smashes seem very close in terms of knockback, though. From the very center of Omega Battlefield, 40%ish was the percent to kill Marth with the normal final smash, and about 35% with Smash.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Does Shulk have any useful combos? GameFAQs recommended Buster/Jump with Uthrow, Utilt, and Air Slash, but enemies can get out of that one easily and punish.

 

[Masonomace]

Does Shulk have any useful combos? GameFAQs recommended Buster/Jump with Uthrow, Utilt, and Air Slash, but enemies can get out of that one easily and punish.

Shulk by himself without Arts involved can include set-ups like:

Vanilla Shulk Early %

• Landing Nair > grab+Uthrow > Utilt
• Landing Nair > AAA
• Landing Nair > Ftilt / Utilt > Dtilt

And those are just off of Nairs upon landing on the stage, there's plenty more combos / setups when using Arts such as Speed's Dthrow > jumping+Fair at early % as well.

 

[averioste]

I've gotten away with buster -> uthrow ->utilt 1-4x(use your descretion), finish with Air Slash/Backslash, massive damage.

 

[Lord of Boxes]

are there any ways to cancel backslash?
accidentally jumping off a cliff with that instead of using arts or air slash is the worst thing ever.

 

[Masonomace]

are there any ways to cancel backslash?
accidentally jumping off a cliff with that instead of using arts or air slash is the worst thing ever.

So far no, once it's inputted there's no stopping it. The only ways to stop the move canceling it is by Shulk flinching. And I agree, from time to time inputting Air Slash during recovery makes me mis-input it for Back Slash, which is stupid.

EDIT: The extra things you can do with Back Slash though is is reverse it's direction or WaveBouncing Back Slash. If you're near the ledge on the right portion of the stage, & let's say you didn't meant to be so close using BS, you can input rightward on the circle pad, then left in mid-animation & Shulk will Back Slash to the left. Hope that helped

 

[Meta651]

There's some tips to fight against Rosaluma? I'm having a hard time against her...

 

[Berserker.]

There's some tips to fight against Rosaluma? I'm having a hard time against her...

Monado speed is your best bet in this match up. It helps you move around the stage and your ground game is waaaay better despite the damage debuff. The extra mobility also helps you get out of sticky situations

Luma's the real deal in the match up. You're best bet is to kill off Luma by (lol) vision countering forward its whatever it does and hope that it goes off stage. If not, treat luma like another character on stage and repeatedly wail on it, take advantage of your range, space your attacks. I suggest that you're better off using SHFF n-air to space since it seems like Shulk's ground attacks miss half the time. Why n-air? It's because it's your only aerial that has no landing lag unless you cancel the landing lag with monado activation. Why worry about landing lag? Because Rosalina's there and she can interrupt whatever you're doing. Plus, n-air covers a good area around Shulk. This is all safe to do if you're not between Rosa and Luma.

As for Rosalina, some things to note. Her attacks have high priority and they're fairly quick. Also, her aerial game is great and to add to that, her mobility in the air is also solid. Going "all out on her" is a lot trickier than it sounds. She's still pretty decent as a stand alone fighter. Then again, just do what you'd usually do. Space, grab, n-air, jab, counter. Watch out for her dash attack. I actually never tried this tactic but try vision countering her dash attack. You have 10 seconds to wreck. Honestly, I usually just switch to buster once Luma's gone because I want to make the most out of it. Then again, it's purely personal preference for me.

Vision in this match up is a bit iffy but it has its uses against Luma and Rosalina. It's not useful if you're trying to avoid being juggled because another hit can interrupt vision's dash animation and both Rosa and Luma are dealing a hit so... Yeah, there's that. The only time you use vision is against Luma's anything ,and Rosalina's dash attack or smash attacks. You're probably better off using forward vision counter since it has more knockback and it puts you in a less-dangerous position

It feels as if you're watching out for 2 fighters. NEVER stay between Luma and Rosalina or try not to remain between them often. This is why speed is very important here other than

Don't be discouraged. The match up isn't unwinnable by all means. I also thought this match up was one sided until I was told that speed was actually a thing. Still, coming in this match up, know that this is going to be an annoying one with a lot of things to look out for. If you're very careful in the match up and if you can space your attacks right (C-stick plox), it probably won't be as scary

tl;dr: polka-polkie-poker-poke

EY. Scoliosis! What's up!?

Oh and speed really works. You need to be in your face in this match up. NOT DEFENSIVE.

 

[Meta651]

Oh and speed really works. You need to be in your face in this match up. NOT DEFENSIVE.

Thanks a lot, been struggling with this match up. A friend is maining her and I got wrecked or is a really battle match for me.

 

[Masonomace]

@ Berserker. Would it be bad advice to say Dsmash is a great move to handle the crowd control against Rosaluma because of the in-between scenarios of Luma coming back? There is two hits behind Shulk & 3 in front of him & if it's for shield + rolls, 3 Dsmash hits on shield sounds nasty too. The luma doesn't have a shield to avoid damage & it's HP stamina being 50, Rosaluma seems to be susceptible by decent-executed Dsmashes. My two cents on the MU

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Most of Rosaluma's attacks come out before your D-smash. Which makes it clunky to use due to start-up and recovery relative to hers. Its not a big deal against other characters because Shulk greatly outranges them but Rosalina....isn't lacking range.

Vision works, nair kind of works, ftilt kind of works, back airs work because dat range.

 

[Blue Mage]

Sorry if this has been answered before, but I heard that each time you use Vision, the window for the counter gets shorter and harder to time, is this true?

If it is true, does it only count for consecutive uses or does it count your overall uses, and does the timer refresh over time and/or on death?

 

[Berserker.]

Sorry if this has been answered before, but I heard that each time you use Vision, the window for the counter gets shorter and harder to time, is this true?

If it is true, does it only count for consecutive uses or does it count your overall uses, and does the timer refresh over time and/or on death?

Counter window gets shorter but the timer refreshes. Not sure about what it counts

 

[Masonomace]

Sorry if this has been answered before, but I heard that each time you use Vision, the window for the counter gets shorter and harder to time, is this true?

If it is true, does it only count for consecutive uses or does it count your overall uses, and does the timer refresh over time and/or on death?

Indeed, Vision used the first time successfully & trying to Vision counter again will have a drastically reduced Counter-window. Not only do you lose most of your intangibility frames but also counter frames too.

So yeah, it counts for consecutive times used in short time. I can't be 100% for what I'm about to say, but it most likely does have a time refresh that "recharges" for a few seconds at most. Of course if you just used Vision, then used it again & made a mistake & you get KO'd, then ofc it'll refresh

 

[Blue Mage]

Alright, I just wanted to make sure. Thanks guys

 

[Claxus]

Using Vision successfully or not both will reduce the counter time if it's reused. It seems there's just two 'modes' for it, normal and reduced. I don't think it changes dynamically, and if it does, not very noticeable. It seems to last around half as long when it's in reduced mode, I think the startup is the same, it's just more punishable.

What the game considers consecutive use is roughly 10 seconds. If you wait ten seconds in between each Vision, you'll get the full counter frames. Use it before that and it'll go into reduced mode. When it's like that, it takes approximately 18 seconds for it to go back to normal.

 

[Xmark]

Can Shulk counter Mac's KO punch?