Q&A U WOT M8 - Shulk Q&A (READ THIS MESSAGE: PLEASE READ BEFORE MAKING A THREAD)

[Masonomace]

Guys, I think I might have found a damage bug with Shulk's counter... Here's the story.

I've played and mained Shulk for over a year now. I know that I can counter jabs and kill ridiculously early. However, over time, I realized that I sometimes can't get any kills from countering certain aerial attacks (even though the enemy is certainly at a kill percent for a jab counter).

So I went off to training mode. I picked Shulk vs Shulk. I used forward vision against a jab and it did 13%. Okay, makes sense. I then used forward vision against Shulk's neutral aerial and it did 9% ... I guess that's the reason why it doesn't kill as early.

But ... how is that even possible? First of all, the counter hit with the blade component of the monado, so it should have done 13%. Second of all, the absolute bare minimum Shulk can do with his forward vision is 10% (if the counter hits with the beam component).

Clearly, 9% makes absolutely no sense. Am I missing something here? Can somebody explain this phenomena?

My findings & understanding about Vision. It's a lot of reading but interesting to say the least. This all was also noted in previous patches but it should still apply.

About Vision
Vision will usually deal 10% base damage or 13% with the Forwarded attack when countering a move dealing 6% or less, which means the 1.3x multiplier won't apply in the damage calculations. However, countering a move dealing 6.166666665% or higher becomes Vision's damage. Therefore, Vision's 10% or 13% base damage will be replaced while also applying the 1.3x multiplier.

Examples:
-Kirby's Dtilt deals 6% & hits Shulk's Vision counter window. Kirby is dealt Vision's 10% base damage.

-Shulk's Nair deals 7% & hits the other Shulk's Vision counter window. Shulk is shown to be dealt 9%, but it's actually 9.1% because of Nair's 7% base damage becoming Vision's damage multiplied by 1.3x


Countering a move dealing less than 6.16% with Monado arts
Damage Calculator for Vision: Regular 10% OR Forwarded 13% × Monado art's damage multiplier

Examples:
-Lucario's Jab1 hits Shulk's Vision counter window while Monado Buster is active, granting Shulk 1.4x the damage. Buster Shulk's Vision deals 14% to Lucario.

-Mario Dthrows Shulk & proceeds to Utilt but Shulk has Monado Shield active, granting Shulk 0.7x the damage, & Monado Shield reducing hitstun allows Shulk to input Vision before Mario's Utilt hits. Therefore, Mario's Utilt hits Shield Shulk's Vision counter window & deals 7% to Mario.


Countering a move dealing 6.16% or more with Monado arts
Damage Calculator for Vision: Damage of countered move × 1.3 × Monado art's damage multiplier

Examples:
-Ganon inputs U-tilt near the ledge while Shulk is ledge-hanging with the Smash art active. Right before Ganon's U-tilt starts to unleash his 28% of doom, Smash Shulk quickly ledge-jumps & interrupts the jump with Vision to land on the stage countering the U-tilt. Vision deals 18.2% while KO'ing Ganon in the process.

-Shulk with the Speed art active Short Hops & airdodges through Ness' PK Fire. Then, Ness readies his PKT2 to deal 25% right as Speed Shulk is about to land, except that Speed Shulk can cancel his airdodge's landing lag with a special move, so in this case he'll use Vision to counter PKT2 dealing 26% to Ness.

Afaik, countering a move that deals ~6.166666665% or higher will apply that move's damage & calculate Vision's multiplier (1.3x) to it. So if default Vision countered a move less than that ^, then it'd deal the base 10% damage without the 1.3x multiplier. Theoretically, without testing it since I'm about to leave soon, this means that if you countered a move that deals close to or about 8% or higher, then your Vision will deal a damage higher than the base 10%. Of course it's always better to counter a more powerful move, but at least it takes just 8% to have a slightly stronger Vision attack.

Also, the knockback difference between Vision's base 10% to Mario's Ftilt countered dealing ~9.1% is quite noticeable. Something to note I suppose.

P.S. No one in this game deals 6.2% in Training Mode. Thank Bionis for Lucario's Aura helping me with figuring out more about Vision.

Extra info about Vision feat. Dr. Mario & Mario. I'd give it a read in case you don't know how Vision works:

Tested on training mode. Dr. Mario respawned from the revival platform to land on the middle of Omega Gaur Plains & used moves to determine the difference between Vision's counter damages without applying DI.

Dr. Mario's Jab1 vs Ftilt
At 176%, Shulk Vision countering a move which in this case was Dr. Mario's Jab1 dealing 2.8% means that Vision's 10% base damage is applied without the multiplier. This shows the Deadly blow effect & KOs Dr. Mario. Although, this was the same result with Dr. Mario's Ftilt even though it deals 7.84%, which is higher than the ~6.166666% threshold. At least it applies the multiplier, but that equals 10.192% which isn't much more.

With Forwarding Vision, Jab1 countered KOs Dr. Mario with the Deadly blow effect appearing at 118% to deal the base 13% base damage without the multiplier. However, the flaw about Forwarded Vision becomes apparent when the move's damage is higher than the threshold but doesn't deal damage higher than the Forwarded 13% base damage, because Forwarded Vision's damage is the same as regular Vision after passing the threshold. So Dr. Mario's Ftilt countered by Forwarded Vision still only deals 10.192%. Forwarded Vision countering Ftilt KOs Dr. Mario with the Deadly blow effect appearing at 148%.

The good news: Forwarded Vision possesses more KBG, but it has the same knockback angle & BKB as regular Vision as far as we know. This explains why Dr. Mario dies from his countered Ftilt with regular Vision at 176% & then KO'd at 148% by Forwarded Vision.

"So how much damage does a move need to deal to break even or more than 13%?" Approximately 10% or higher. And Dr. Mario's Fair Late dealing 10.08% is just the move to use:

Dr. Mario's Jab1 vs Fair Late
You know Jab1's kill percent with Forwarded Vision, being 118%. As for Fair Late, Shulk's Forwarded Vision KOs Dr. Mario at 117% with the Deadly blow effect appearing. I even fastfell the aerial so I could be closer to the ground for a more accurate result. Fair Late's calculation being 10.08 x 1.3 = 13.104% could have affected the result by the slight ~1% kill difference between Fair Late & Jab1, but I won't go that far to say there's a marginal difference.
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Now let's use Mario, since his moves don't have any messy decimal values. Have some numbers:

Mario Jab1 vs Ftilt
At 176%, Shulk's Vision countering Jab1 KOs Mario while showing the Deadly blow effect. And at 196%, Shulk's Vision countering Ftilt KOs Mario while showing the Deadly blow effect. Yikes. Ftilt only dealing 7% means that the regular Vision dealt 9.1%.

At 118%, Shulk's Forwarded Vision countering Jab1 KOs Mario while showing the Deadly blow effect. And at 165%, Shulk's Forwarded Vision counteing Ftilt KOs Mario while showing the Deadly blow effect. Ftilt only dealing 7% means that the Forwarded Vision dealt 9.1%.

But before I say more, I wanna say that there could perhaps be a thing with something else that Vision applies, but I'll discuss about that later.

 

[C0rvus]

Would you guys consider Shulk an expressive character? As in, are his tools varied enough that every player's Shulk is different? Is he fulfilling to play? I have played him in the past but get frustrated because of his high learning curve and purported low payout for said efforts.

Jerm's post in the CCI Thread made me consider the character once again (even if it could be satire), because of his inherent flexibility due to his arts. He has all these strong aspects, albeit not all at once, that make you think he could actually be a good character. Part of me wants to take the plunge again, but I think it's just because I'm going stir crazy from lack of tournaments.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I don't speak for every Shulk player when I ask this but, why is it that every Shulk player I play online immediately starts with the Speed Monado? Seriously all they are asking is to get flung around like a rag doll, which isn't hard to do when you know how the Monado Arts work.

 

[dhblademaster]

I don't speak for every Shulk player when I ask this but, why is it that every Shulk player I play online immediately starts with the Speed Monado? Seriously all they are asking is to get flung around like a rag doll, which isn't hard to do when you know how the Monado Arts work.

Well, if I were to guess what these players were thinking, I would assume that they go Speed at the beginning because Speed is, for the most part, the safest art in neutral. I mean, you don't have the lowered shield stun that Smash gives you, you don't have the lower mobility that Shield gives you, and you don't take the extra damage from low percent combos like you do in Buster and Jump mode.

I personally go Speed at the beginning of the match when I either want to feel my opponent out, or I'm facing a fast faller, because I know my Buster throw game shenanigans won't work as well because the other character can just fall to the ground and hold shield because I can't grab them again.

And, lets be honest, it is kinda fun to fly around with a giant sword.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I generally don't use Shulk but when I do, I only use a Monado Art when I am sure I can or at least have a chance to end my opponent on the spot.

 

[MaxRevenge]

I start off with the buster art 90% of the time. To me, 19% tilts, 18% back-airs, and 17% back-throws are just way too good. However, if I feel like I'm taking too many hits (usually within 10 seconds of the game), I'll switch to speed and analyze their playstyle. If I'm confident that I'll be able to adapt, I'll switch to buster again.

 

[MaxRevenge]

Also, does anyone have the KBG and BKG values for the following:

* Attacks enhanced by the Smash and Buster arts
* Shulk's custom moves. I'm particularly interested in his Power Vision

 

[Masonomace]

Also, does anyone have the KBG and BKG values for the following:

* Attacks enhanced by the Smash and Buster arts
* Shulk's custom moves. I'm particularly interested in his Power Vision

Sorry I don't know the exact BKB & KBG values with Monado Enchant & Smash, but here's custom move stuff:
http://smashboards.com/threads/leve...et-discussion-3-0.397733/page-7#post-20367410

 

[Kulty]

Hi guys,

Newguy who wants to start feeling it. Basically I do have some questions:
1) Is it manageable to playalong with someone like(my other main)? I read this post (http://smashboards.com/threads/really-feeling-it-three-expert-opinions-on-smash-4-shulk.424911/) and the Shulk experts stated that it`s better to fully dedicate to Shulk, since he's so technical.
2) Which Monado Art should I start using in neutral? I mainly use Speed, but should I start using some other Arts in some MUs?
3) What should I mainly do in neutral?
4) Good solo daily practice routine for Shulk?
5) Most essential advanced techniques to look out for aside of MALLC (Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel) and MADC (Monado Art Dash Cancel)? Some situational ones?
6) Worst Shulk MUs aside of? What should I do against these four?

Thank you for answering these questions in advance! I'll be glad to play and learn the Monado Boy since he's probably my favorite character to play along the Smash 4 newcomers. Hope to play Xenoblade Chronicles soon...

 

[Masonomace]

Hi guys,

Newguy who wants to start feeling it. Basically I do have some questions:
1) Is it manageable to playalong with someone like(my other main)? I read this post (http://smashboards.com/threads/really-feeling-it-three-expert-opinions-on-smash-4-shulk.424911/) and the Shulk experts stated that it`s better to fully dedicate to Shulk, since he's so technical.
2) Which Monado Art should I start using in neutral? I mainly use Speed, but should I start using some other Arts in some MUs?
3) What should I mainly do in neutral?
4) Good solo daily practice routine for Shulk?
5) Most essential advanced techniques to look out for aside of MALLC (Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel) and MADC (Monado Art Dash Cancel)? Some situational ones?
6) Worst Shulk MUs aside of? What should I do against these four?

Thank you for answering these questions in advance! I'll be glad to play and learn the Monado Boy since he's probably my favorite character to play along the Smash 4 newcomers. Hope to play Xenoblade Chronicles soon...

1) You're fine to be playing a few characters with Shulk, it's just that you don't really want to be learning a lot about Shulk if you're also trying to learn a lot of other characters at the same time. It's true in that Shulk is a very dynamic character that has a ton of things to the character that require you to be in the lab for many things when it comes to this character.

2) You can do whatever you want. Any art can theoretically be used at the start in Neutral as long as you know how you're going to play with the art & what your objective with said art is. I myself use a good amount of Monado Shield for a great amount of character MUs, but that's the thing, is that I myself am used to it & go about it that way. You might not be all about Monado Shield at the start in Neutral whereas maybe you prefer to be in Vanilla, or Speed, or Jump.

3) In Neutral you don't really have that many approach options unless you use your head-on options in a way that you drift behind the opponent, resulting in crossing them up. Shulk likes to open up an opponent by making them react to a lot of tilts & aerials, while conditioning them to be holding shield a lot. Especially when you jump in the air & choose to use an aerial for a good amount of times, players will most likely decide to run to your landing location you'll be at & hold shield because they shield your aerial which will probably be unsafe barring Monado Buster aerials that are spaced.

4) I suggest a lot of spacing with your tilts & aerials. Knowing MALLC's timing to help perfect your Art Landing Cancels for whenever you hit a character, hit their shield, or hit nothing. Hitting something will induce freeze frames, which delay the art's timing of when it activates, so be aware of these delays & factor that into your timing when performing art-related techniques. There's other things to practice but this suffices for now.

5) B-Reversing or Wavebouncing art activations on the ground or in the air also help in mixing up your game quite well. Turnarounds from the art activation also do fine. A great helpful technique to also perform & apply is Art Buffered Deactivation, which is basically using an action that has endlag, pressing B at least 3 times, & then acting with the next input which will show the art deactivation taking place on the first frame. The results are very interesting & I recommend MABD to you. Other than that, there's other techniques that are quite vital but they're not necessarily advanced. You have landing with Nair if you're able to, because it's better to take only 10 frames of lag than if you perform an aerial like Bair or Fair & take 19 or 16 frames of lag. Then you have Air Slash delaying, & this is when you choose not to input the second hit of Air Slash because you want to recover with more horizontal drifting distance after the first hit of Air Slash. This way, it helps maximize your vertical & horizontal recovering with Air Slash.

6) Either switch the character to another character you may find more helpful to deal with the MU, or be head-strong & find opportunities in utilizing arts in different moments that you wouldn't usually use at regular times. While this is uncommon for an art to be used at a questionably different time, you're still technically being telegraphed because of the art activated & what your objectives with said art will most likely be used for in your hands.

 

[Nammy12]

What do you guys set your second stick to?

Also, any general tips for Shulk in doubles?

 

[Kulty]

1) You're fine to be playing a few characters with Shulk, it's just that you don't really want to be learning a lot about Shulk if you're also trying to learn a lot of other characters at the same time. It's true in that Shulk is a very dynamic character that has a ton of things to the character that require you to be in the lab for many things when it comes to this character.

2) You can do whatever you want. Any art can theoretically be used at the start in Neutral as long as you know how you're going to play with the art & what your objective with said art is. I myself use a good amount of Monado Shield for a great amount of character MUs, but that's the thing, is that I myself am used to it & go about it that way. You might not be all about Monado Shield at the start in Neutral whereas maybe you prefer to be in Vanilla, or Speed, or Jump.

3) In Neutral you don't really have that many approach options unless you use your head-on options in a way that you drift behind the opponent, resulting in crossing them up. Shulk likes to open up an opponent by making them react to a lot of tilts & aerials, while conditioning them to be holding shield a lot. Especially when you jump in the air & choose to use an aerial for a good amount of times, players will most likely decide to run to your landing location you'll be at & hold shield because they shield your aerial which will probably be unsafe barring Monado Buster aerials that are spaced.

4) I suggest a lot of spacing with your tilts & aerials. Knowing MALLC's timing to help perfect your Art Landing Cancels for whenever you hit a character, hit their shield, or hit nothing. Hitting something will induce freeze frames, which delay the art's timing of when it activates, so be aware of these delays & factor that into your timing when performing art-related techniques. There's other things to practice but this suffices for now.

5) B-Reversing or Wavebouncing art activations on the ground or in the air also help in mixing up your game quite well. Turnarounds from the art activation also do fine. A great helpful technique to also perform & apply is Art Buffered Deactivation, which is basically using an action that has endlag, pressing B at least 3 times, & then acting with the next input which will show the art deactivation taking place on the first frame. The results are very interesting & I recommend MABD to you. Other than that, there's other techniques that are quite vital but they're not necessarily advanced. You have landing with Nair if you're able to, because it's better to take only 10 frames of lag than if you perform an aerial like Bair or Fair & take 19 or 16 frames of lag. Then you have Air Slash delaying, & this is when you choose not to input the second hit of Air Slash because you want to recover with more horizontal drifting distance after the first hit of Air Slash. This way, it helps maximize your vertical & horizontal recovering with Air Slash.

6) Either switch the character to another character you may find more helpful to deal with the MU, or be head-strong & find opportunities in utilizing arts in different moments that you wouldn't usually use at regular times. While this is uncommon for an art to be used at a questionably different time, you're still technically being telegraphed because of the art activated & what your objectives with said art will most likely be used for in your hands.

Thanks I appreciate it. For question 1, I only plan to focus and learn more about. No one else. So I guess it's fine, right? Also, for MUs against rushdown combo-heavy characters at low percents (), is it a good idea to be in Shield Monado? Aside of being harder to combo at low percents, is there any other purposes?

 

[Masonomace]

What do you guys set your second stick to?

Also, any general tips for Shulk in doubles?

Second stick as in the R-stick / C-stick? I set mine to Attack now, because using tilts with C-stick on the Gamecube controller feels so good that I don't look back on the C-stick being set to smash. Otherwise, I'd go back to smash stick just to Dthrow > Perfect Pivot > Fsmash angled up in Speed art, which even then isn't a true combo despite that it looks really flashy.

General tips for Shulk in Doubles goes as follows:

• You have the ability & choice to decide whether you want to be a Point player, Support player, or a Well-Rounded in-between. A Point player is someone who uses a lot of Buster to Smash, Speed to Jump, etc..
• A Support player is someone who uses a heavy amount of Jump, Speed, & Shield to prolong & control stage presence for the teammate to be more of a Point player. In my example, I team with a Luigi who is the primary Point player because we go for Shoryuken setups & opportunities to close stocks around the ~40 - 60% range, so I use Jump Speed or Shield to get a grab followup leading into SRK. The Support Shulk also relies heavily on Jump & Shield to stock tank to the max, since you can definitely do that with the art synergy combo. However, this more-less sacrifices more of your presence & can leave your partner by himself should the opposing character on the other team decides not to deal with you, so keep that in mind.
  
• A Well-Rounded in-between player mixes a great amount of arts in combination to blend objectives together so that you don't outweigh the Point or Support. If your team composition doesn't have a very strong Point or Support role, you can use this role to establish that you can decide to be the momentary Point or Support when the opportunity rises.

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EDIT:

Thanks I appreciate it. For question 1, I only plan to focus and learn more about. No one else. So I guess it's fine, right? Also, for MUs against rushdown combo-heavy characters at low percents (), is it a good idea to be in Shield Monado? Aside of being harder to combo at low percents, is there any other purposes?

Yeah, that's fine. Only using two characters doesn't hurt your Shulk improvement one bit. Monado Shield for rush-down matchups can help but you have to be very aware & careful of getting grabbed, because the art's debuff drawbacks leave you more vulnerable / prone to getting grabbed more. And if you do get grabbed, Shield's hitstun reduction because of the art's buff which is taking less knockback helps in making some of their BnB combos less-reliable, but this also means that they can create new BnB followups that weren't normally possible. At this point it becomes a guessing-game & how they react to you due to Shield & Smash art changing the game of combo'ing & using attack strings on you.

 

[BlueDaruma888]

Heya guys!

Been really feelin' Shulk a lot so far, but I'm finding that I'm really struggling against super aggressive rushdown, usually in the form of Sheik and Fox.

I know that Shulk doesn't exactly have the best MU against these guys, but I'd prefer if I could try to find a way to alleviate some of the pressure rather than having to pick up a secondary. My playstyle is a fairly defensive punish based one, even when I'm in Speed/ Buster mode. Any hints?

Edit: Looks like some guys have brought this up a bit earlier in the thread. What about options outside of Monado Arts though? Should I just try and space the best that I can with SHFF Nairs, or is there a better solution?

 

[BlueDaruma888]

On another note, do any of you find it difficult to pick up another character after using Shulk for a while? I ask this because I'm still trying out all of the other characters, but having gotten extremely used to his spacing and range, I find it difficult to just move onto a different character. The only exception I've found is Cloud, in part because I honestly play him as a more offense oriented Shulk, in addition to the spacing and punishing.

 

[PlasmaButt]

I've played Shulk ever since I picked up this game and even before in Project M by replacing Ike's model, though that doesn't count. One thing I've always had trouble with and especially after learning his ATs is tips for Monado Deactivation and Buffered Deactivation. I'm originally a player of a shooting games, so would using my trigger finger (R button) be a good setup to invest in? I've used R for Shield my whole life, like, since I was 5, but I've changed my habits often for this to just be a few days progress into learning.

TL;DR should I change my R button to Special to deactivate Arts with more precision?

 

[Blaziken77]

http://smashboards.com/guides/how-t...i-meta-arts-and-advanced-technique-guide.849/
So some friends and I have had encounters with this individual on another website and I'm curious as to how much of this individual's egotism is bluster as opposed to justified, since in said encounters they tend to think highly of themselves. While parts of this guide seems dumb to me [granted I don't know much about Shulk] (For instance telling us about some technique and then not saying what it is, very helpful...) I was wondering, how much of this guide is actually accurate/useful, how much is okay mix-ups, and how much is worthless and/or bad ideas?

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

How should I kill with Shulk? I normally fish for the off-stage gimp, or sometimes a well angled F-Smash, but I really cannot kill with Shulk, as easily as I should be able too.

Early thanks for the help!

 

[dhblademaster]

How should I kill with Shulk? I normally fish for the off-stage gimp, or sometimes a well angled F-Smash, but I really cannot kill with Shulk, as easily as I should be able too.

Early thanks for the help!

Hey there. I understand struggling to find kills with Shulk sometimes. But, there are a few things you can try. One of my favorite things to do is to use an Up Smash as my opponent comes up from the ledge. That covers standard get up pretty well, and if you have the opportunity to charge it, that's a pretty solid kill option. There's also Jump Mode Up Throw -> Up Air. While it isn't a true combo, it kills fairly early. There's also one thing I've been trying out recently, which is Buster Back Throw -> Buffered Deactivation -> Back Slash near the edge. It's a pretty risky option, but, depending on your opponents weight, in can kill pretty early.

Hope this helps!

 

[Login_Sinker]

Aight, a few questions from someone who forgot Shulk existed.

1. What is this character and how do you play him?

2. How viable is this character (if at all)?

3. Who is the best Shulk main?

 

[dhblademaster]

Aight, a few questions from someone who forgot Shulk existed.

1. What is this character and how do you play him?

2. How viable is this character (if at all)?

3. Who is the best Shulk main?

Lol, well, thanks for remembering the Monado Boy enough to come here!

1. Oof, this is a difficult question. From my experiences, the goal of Shulk is to live in this midrange "threat zone" (so, right outside your opponents dash grab range give or take) and harass your opponent with your overwhelming range, especially with nairs and pivot forward tilts and down tilts and MALLC'd aerials and other fun stuff. Then, once you get your opponent on the ledge or trapped in a corner, you want to use your range to lock your opponent in that situation. But how do the Monado Arts come into play? Honestly, there are so many things you can do with the arts now, it's a bit overwhelming. You can use them for their intended purpose, you could use the fact that the arts are visible as mind games, you can use them to cancel your landing lag, and other cool stuff. What's really cool about Shulk, as a result of the Monado Arts, is that you can have a really diverse playstyle that ranges from playing rushdown to camping and back again in the span of like, 30 seconds. He truly is a cool and diverse character that gives you a lot of options depending on your playstyle.

2. Oof, another difficult question. Honestly, I'm not certain that there is a concrete opinion on Shulk's viability. Some say he's low tier, some say he's mid tier, some people think he's almost high tier. It all seems to come back to one key component about Shulk. With his diversity, it looks like he has the ability to adapt to any situation at any time. This looks super appealing on paper and is why he looks like he has so much potential. However, some people look at his frame data and write him off as a "bad character" because his frame data is simply too bad, and his matchups against high tier characters are so unbearable as a result. I would give you my opinion, but I honestly flip flop between those two on almost a daily basis. I guess what I'll say is, Shulk could be really really good, but we're not totally completely sure yet.

3. This could be a variety of people. One of the reasons that people think that Shulk has potential, is because there hasn't been a truly dominant Shulk yet, and once one appears, Shulk is going to be super relevant. Anyone from Tremendo Dude, to HoH Darkwolf, to Distant Kingdom, to Get Shulked to Masonomance or an undiscovered Shulk main could be the best. If you want to go off strictly recent tournament results (sorry early day Trela Shulk), I think Tremendo Dude takes it because he got third at Glitch Low Tiers. I could be wrong though. I'm honestly not very aware of the tournament scene in Canada.

Anyway, I hope these answered your questions. Have a nice day!

 

[Login_Sinker]

Awesome response, bro. This character is really cool. Here's hoping to Shulks doing well in the future (and maybe some buffs, daddy Sakurai?)

 

[The_Most_Effectual]

What are your opinions on Shulk as a doubles character? I use him along with my partner's Cloud at our local biweeklies and we've managed to get some decent results, despite being younger than most of our competition. Although most people I've asked don't seem to think that he is a very good pick (and I'm certainly not saying that he's high-tier or anything), I think that because of his arts he can fill in lots of different roles as a teammate, and that he deserves more of a second look as a doubles character than most people give him.

Then again, you guys are the ones whose opinions really matter since you're all a lot smarter than me lol, so I'd really love to hear what you think? Thanks!

 

[Masonomace]

What are your opinions on Shulk as a doubles character?

Straight-up amazing, that's what my opinion is. The character has so many tools that allow him to fill-in moments of a role you'd need. You want a stock tank? Then a mixture of Jump Speed & Shield (mostly great usage & activation mileage of Shield). You want a bruiser who dominates stage presence with your teammate? Then Speed & Buster. You want an aggressive chaser who goes for follow-ups or kill confirms? Then Jump & Smash. There's so many options & strategies you can make with the character that I'm shocked players in your area think he's a mediocre Doubles character.

 

[The_Most_Effectual]

I feel exactly the same way! He can be change his role dramatically at a moment's notice, to accommodate not only your own needs, like he does so well in singles, but the needs of your partner as well! My partner tends to be a little balls-to-the-wall in his play most of the time, so I usually just hold onto stocks for him by surviving with Shield and playing keep away in Jump and Speed to let Shield recharge. If my partner wants to charge limit, I can wall out the other team with Speed and Buster to give him the space to do so. Not to mention that due to the crazy mobility with Jump and Speed, you can follow up on basically any substantial hit your partner gets, no matter where they are or where it sends the opponent. Do you want to combo an opponent when you and your partner are close together? Slap on Buster, and the decreased knockback from your attacks will keep the opponent right where they need to be, and the increased damage can turn a small volley into 60% or more. Want to combo an opponent with your teammate who's across the stage? Hit them with a Smash fair or bair and your teammate will have so much time to react to the incoming opponent that they can do anything they like. There's also tons of possibilities of options with your partner triggering your Vision, which is most easily and effectively accomplished if they have a strong, upward hitbox that they can hit you with from underneath a platform on Smashville, Battlefield, etc. It covers so much area and has the potential to be so strong, with such little to no risk to you or your partner, besides possibly staling Vision and their attack.

There's so much more theory-crafting I would love to go into about how amazing doubles is and how Shulk is such a fascinating character for it, but I've already geeked out enough already lol. Any other thoughts about Shulk and strategies for him in doubles, or thoughts on anything I've said about him would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Minwu]

So am I not imagining Buster mode absolutely wrecking shield HP? Does it increase shieldstun as well? Does Shulk gain any practical shieldbreak options during Buster?

 

[Berserker.]

Buster art increases damage output which also has a direct effect on shield stun and shield damage. Shulk has some shield breaking options on buster art. Most notably d-smash against opponents shielding near the ledge, his get-up attack, and MALLC b-air > f-smash/f-tilt (although it's not really a true block string). They're all hard to land though in an actual match

 

[FOcast]

So am I not imagining Buster mode absolutely wrecking shield HP? Does it increase shieldstun as well? Does Shulk gain any practical shieldbreak options during Buster?

It definitely does. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YidvdXGYII

Berserker. mentioned Dsmash at the ledge, I wonder if perfect pivot Dsmash would be particularly effective at covering options. I don't think it would cover doing nothing, though, since I think Shulk's only ledge-hitting hitbox on Dsmash is 3rd hit at the tip.

 

[Masonomace]

Dsmash up close on someone's bubble shield with Buster art active can utterly wreck them. If your Dsmash is practically inside their hurtbox / shield bubble near the ledge, then the Buster Dsmash hits 1 2 & 3 will all be Blade sweetspots, capable of easily breaking anyone's shield. If you plan to use a standard regular Dsmash by having the front hits 1 3 & 5 connect, you're actually more likely to shield-poke through their shield bubble & deal damage rather than delivering a delicious shield break. Owell, damage is damage.

 

[E.Lopez]

Masonomace , yep, I love it when that happens. I was lucky enough to do something like that some time ago:

At 0:50
https://youtu.be/q4b5yeQzwZ0?t=50s

(In this case I think I was actually close enough that the shield broke after front hit 1 and back hit 1 were complete).

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Does Shulk have any viable kill confirms? If so what are they?

Also are Shulk's aerials safe on shield when spaced properly in any mode? Or can the opponent always run up and grab them after they are blocked?
Not including MACC as that forces you to switch modes when you probably don't want to.

 

[Claxus]

Does Shulk have any viable kill confirms? If so what are they?

Also are Shulk's aerials safe on shield when spaced properly in any mode? Or can the opponent always run up and grab them after they are blocked?
Not including MACC as that forces you to switch modes when you probably don't want to.

In Jump, landing N-Air into two F-Airs is a true combo around 65% that will KO near the edge. U-Throw into U-Air is a solid 50-50, but that takes some complexities. Check out the Monado Purge video, you can find it in the metagame thread.

U-Air and D-Air are unsafe on block... obviously. N-Air is mostly unpunishable if you hit it close enough to the ground and spaced. F-Air... I think faster characters can punish it, I'm not too sure, I don't use it much since it's less reliable on shield, but it seems good if your opponent lacks instant range. No one's going to punish a well-spaced B-Air, especially if it's retreating.

 

[54BR3 WU1F]

Ok, so I'm kinda newish to Smash 4 and well, I was wondering if I should learn Shulk and if he's easy to learn since I'm a Falco and Charizard main in Smash 4. So, is Shulk easy to learn and would I need to adapt to different changes from Falco or Charizard?

 

[Rawbinator]

Shulk is generally not considered easy to learn. His attacks are very slow, he has to manage his Monado Arts, he has advanced techniques that should be used fairly regularly such as the Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel, or buffered art deactivation (information can be found in this board).

He's one of the coolest characters in the game, but it takes some investment to use him well

54BR3 WU1F

 

[DJBor]

"Nerf Shulk"? Doubt it.
People in my community are complaining about Vision being "a cop-out" and "too OP". We have quite a few pocket Shulks (me not being one of them), and knowing Shulk's disadvantages and advantages, I don't get why they'd want to nerf an already underlooked character, over a single move that isn't even his claim to fame.

My question: if Shulk was to receive another patch change, should frame data get buffed, and Vision nerfed in return?

 

[Masonomace]

My question: if Shulk was to receive another patch change, should frame data get buffed, and Vision nerfed in return?

"Should" is subjective-based & opinions vary on what others suggest for Shulk changes.

Frame data is nice, but it doesn't solve the core problems about some of Shulk's moves, like Ledge Attack. Vision getting nerfed for the compensation of anything getting buffed is silly, because Vision in the air is pretty bad & unreliable. This is why Ground Vision is good but even still is limited despite that it's a strong hitting counter & is unblockable.

If anything, just buff Monado arts so that it boosts the one thing that makes Shulk, Shulk. Shulk by himself is pretty so-so if not lacking fundamentally, but with Monado arts, Shulk becomes a viable character.

 

[OceloT42]

Hello Shulk mains!
I main Corrin and Charizard. I've always wanted to main Shulk ever since he was announced for Smash, but I was sorta scared off by the Monado Arts and their usage.
Now, after having played Smash since 2014, I finally felt confident enough to pick up Monado Boy.
I'm really feeling it, but I just have one question, i.e, how do you prefer using the Monado Arts? I normally start off with Speed, unless I'm fighting a heavyweight or fastfaller, in which case, Buster it is. From there I space them out while hunting for a Smash Art kill.I hardly ever use Shield because it feels restrictive, and Jump makes me feel uncomfortable, so I don't touch it unless I need a clutch comeback with edgeguarding.
Thanks in advance, and I look forward to becoming a solid Shulk main.
Also, part of the reason I play Shulk is because of his British accent. "Bustah!"

 

[Masonomace]

OceloT42 Monado art usage varies from Heir to Heir. There are several cases where two Shulk players are bound to play a similar play-style, but overall there's many different ways to play the character. You can use arts for their primal "primary" functions. Something like this, but not perfectly correct:
-Jump clearly improves recovery
-Speed clearly improves ground speed for more interesting Neutral
-Shield improves ground control & can be a support fill-in art
-Buster racks up more damage & can apply stronger shield pressure with better footsies
-Smash cleans up stocks & can go for early gimps if desired

Once you think of it that way, you can feel easy with their basic stats affecting Shulk, but it's not that easy. Monado arts affect Shulk through multipliers, & there's a bunch of attributes affected by the arts. If I genuinely answered how I prefer using arts I'd be typing up a hefty long post & I just feel lazy right now not wanting to.

 

[luke_atyeo]

hey dudes, I'm trying to collect a bunch of quick easy info graphics on essential character knowledge to make a quick reference guide for commentators (we all hate it when a commentator says something that is wrong)
This shulk thing here is an example of the kinda stuff I am looking for

I'm going around to all the character boards and it'll be a little messy for me to try and check them all, so if you have any cool things like that, or just some useful info that I could turn into a similar picture, please send me a message. Cheers lads.

 

[Green Zelda]

Hiya! how does shulk keep kirby "out" (keep him from swallowing us)?