Q&A U WOT M8 - Shulk Q&A (READ THIS MESSAGE: PLEASE READ BEFORE MAKING A THREAD)

[Zatchiel]

It's not just getting flustered when things start going badly, it's also just beating myself up when I lose repeatedly (which I know is really stupid and that I shouldn't care so much about a ****ing videogame) and I'd have to imagine that really trying to work out a character as technically difficult as Shulk might lead to that. Admittedly, I did use him for a while, and started to get a grasp on him, but as I think I mentioned earlier I feel like I've been having to relearn the game ever since dropping Mega Man, and I don't know how difficult that'll be with Shulk.

You have to recognize and accept your mistakes, because otherwise they will do nothing but haunt you in your future with the game. Unless you have countless hours to dedicate to practice, odds are you aren't going to always be on your A-game. Don't beat yourself up.

Shulk does have a pretty demanding meta. Every game is going to feel like an uphill battle while you figure the character out, and that's necessary. Patience is probably the one thing that will help your progress with this character more than any other.

Learning him won't be a walk in the park. It might take months before you even feel comfortable using him against competent players.

 

[wertyou2]

You have to recognize and accept your mistakes, because otherwise they will do nothing but haunt you in your future with the game. Unless you have countless hours to dedicate to practice, odds are you aren't going to always be on your A-game. Don't beat yourself up.

Shulk does have a pretty demanding meta. Every game is going to feel like an uphill battle while you figure the character out, and that's necessary. Patience is probably the one thing that will help your progress with this character more than any other.

Learning him won't be a walk in the park. It might take months before you even feel comfortable using him against competent players.

The problem is that I actually do spend many hours each day practicing. I'm still not good though.

Should I try to learn him or does it sound like a bad idea?

 

[Zatchiel]

The problem is that I actually do spend many hours each day practicing. I'm still not good though.

Should I try to learn him or does it sound like a bad idea?

Then you might be wearing yourself out by playing so frequently. Trust me. I was the exact same way when I picked up Smash.

If you really want to learn the character, that should be the bulk of your initiative. I say give it another shot. You're aware that you have us to help you out now, so things could go better.

 

[wertyou2]

Then you might be wearing yourself out by playing so frequently. Trust me. I was the exact same way when I picked up Smash.

If you really want to learn the character, that should be the bulk of your initiative. I say give it another shot. You're aware that you have us to help you out now, so things could go better.

You do all seem more willing to help unlike Luigi boards, where it seems like I get a single answer to any question, after about 6 days of waiting. Not to be rude to them or anything.

 

[Berserker.]

You do all seem more willing to help unlike Luigi boards, where it seems like I get a single answer to any question, after about 6 days of waiting. Not to be rude to them or anything.

It's probably because the Luigi boards aren't so active. I think. I guess.

But don't worry, we'll try our best to answer your questions! (Especially me, I keep ****ing up somehow >_>)

 

[Maple42]

This isn't going to be Shulk-related, but lemme tell you, I lost a few hundred rounds on For Glory back in the olden days where Little Mac was totally top tier and Bowser's Forward Smash was the most incredible move before I started to realize my own mistakes; it might be fundamentals. Like, things like Spacing and Punishing are precursors to playing characters with bad frame data, and ya might get tossed around quite a few times before you got there. But trust me, you'll get there if you keep cracking at it.

May I suggest training with someone more experienced than you? They might be able to point out your autopilots ~

 

[wertyou2]

This isn't going to be Shulk-related, but lemme tell you, I lost a few hundred rounds on For Glory back in the olden days where Little Mac was totally top tier and Bowser's Forward Smash was the most incredible move before I started to realize my own mistakes; it might be fundamentals. Like, things like Spacing and Punishing are precursors to playing characters with bad frame data, and ya might get tossed around quite a few times before you got there. But trust me, you'll get there if you keep cracking at it.

May I suggest training with someone more experienced than you? They might be able to point out your autopilots ~

I actually go to a local weekly (or at least used to; low self esteem has stopped me recently) and played with people there. When I used mega man, I do remember getting some good tips.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm gonna update the Q&A thread. Probably with a different design and a LOT of new FAQ's. Any suggestions you guys want to give?

 

[TheHopefulHero]

My suggestion would probably be to clear up some misconceptions with the FAQ's, namely the side effects of each Monado Art. Other than that, I think you can do a good job of updating the thread Berserker.

 

[Berserker.]

Alright, I'll add the misconceptions (based from SDoom's video also)

 

[Masonomace]

One misconception about the Shield & Smash Arts is that they don't actually increase or decrease weight. After time has passed, we've learned that they don't necessarily affect weight but they do alter the knockback taken through a multiplier / modifier(?)

I've also realized that the Speed Arts do in fact decrease the height of Air Slash but they mostly affect the 2nd slash since Speed & DSpeed side-by-side inputting Air Slash simultaneously will only show a very slight difference for the 1st slash. Yet the Shield Arts don't affect Air Slash at all in terms of vertical height, except for the bad drifting in between the 1st & 2nd hits of AS ofc.

Atm I can't think of any FAQs, but one current FAQ reading:

Q: How many B presses does it take to deactivate arts?
A: 3 button presses

It could be edited to read:
Q: How do you deactivate Arts?
A: 3 consecutive B button presses or hold the B button for 1 second

Another reading:

Q: Can you quickly switch out of your currently used Monado arts
A: Yes, but once you do that, it's put on cooldown

It could be edited to read:
Q: Can you quickly switch out of a currently used Monado Art
A: Yes, you can even switch Arts even during hitstun, but once you deactivate that Art it'll go on cooldown

And one more reading:

Q: Does Shulk's counter scale with the countered attack's damage?
A: Yes. The multiplier is at 1.3x

After discovering more about Vision, I'd suggest to edit it as read:
Q: Does Shulk's counter scale with the countered attack's damage?
A: Yes, the 1.3x multiplier will apply but only when the damage of the attack is 6.16% or more. So if the total damage dealt 6% or lower, only Vision's 10% base damage will apply.

 

[Berserker.]

Made the edits to the OP. Thanks Mace

 

[Zatchiel]

Q: How risky is Monado Smash?
A: Yes.

Never change this. I'm serious. Reading it just made my morning.

 

[Berserker.]

Usually, people are like "how" instead of "is" when it comes to measuring something

Tell me how risky Monado Smash is. I won't even say it's kinda or sort of or really. It is risky. Lol

To be honest, I actually didn't mean that but the more I think about it, the more I feel like it actually makes a lot of sense

 

[Berserker.]

Bumpity-bump

I'll update the OP sooner or later. Adding more QA's and that stuff

Didn't do **** to make this thread look better but I added 4 QA's

 

[Masonomace]

@ Berserker.

Q: Does Shulk have any aerials that auto-cancel?
A: Lol no

Objection. None of his aerials autocancel out of a Short Hop, but F-air does autocancel out of a Full Hop without fast falling. This applies to Vanilla, Jump, Decisive Jump, & Hyper Jump.

 

[Berserker.]

Alright, I'll rephrase that

"Does Shulk have any aerials that auto-cancel from SH?"

There, done

Edit: Even then, it's still so horrible to the point that it isn't even worth noting tbh

 

[Masonomace]

So uhh, it seems that I wasn't able to find frame data for the endlag on Shulk's throws but I did kind of test the hitstun / frame advantage of Shulk's throws. D-throw or F-throw seem to for sure have the most frame advantage, but my question to anyone:

Which of Shulk's throws have the lowest & highest amount of endlag?

EDIT: I can probably figure this out whenever I turn my console on but the question is still up in the air for anyone.

 

[Zatchiel]

Which of Shulk's throws have the lowest & highest amount of endlag?

Down and up throw probably have IASA frame values that are very close to one another; they're the only two throws we can combo out of. Judging with just your eyes, it's hard to tell which of them you can act out of faster.

Strangely enough, I could say the same for forward and back throw when it comes to which one has more endlag. I'm not sure which one takes more time for you to act out of.

 

[Funkermonster]

On a scale of 1-10, how difficult would you say it is to play this character? Does he have any must-know techniques to even be decent with him that are like hard to execute or something (besides Art Landing Lag Cancels or stuff like that)?Haven't played Shulk too recently, but he was among the first characters I've practiced early in the game and I did so for quite awhile, and I've played him around the 6th most of any character in total according to my in game records, and I've been told by others that I have a decent idea of what I'm doing too. I kinda ask this since I've started playing even more characters afterwards and I think its starting to get a little out of hand, and I'm now trying to cut down my pocket list to around 1-3 to avoid spreading myself too thin. I consider Shulk a candidate since despite his supposedly high leaning curve, I've played him first before the new ones and many more times as well, as I find it a bit more productive to use a character I have more experience with unless he's really crazy technical. I haven't played him all that recently, but I'll bet if I just play him again tomorrow I'll remember most of what I previously did and get back where I left off at.

A lot of people I've seen say he's among the hardest to use, but in my experience I've found him to be only slightly difficult and I've done decently (but not greatly) against most people I've played against both online and offline, and a few people have told me I'm decent with him already too. Honestly found others like more frustrating to work with than him tbh. Even when I did lose, I feel they were more from general bad habits than Shulk-specific mistakes, and I've improved my basics over the last couple months so they might be gone. Just gotta play him again and find out, once I get back my game that is. But my experience is probably meaningless since it could be my opponents bein' bad rather than me being good or just me having a long run of beginner's luck, and it'd be more helpful to get the opinions of the people who've got real experience with the character. If you'd rank his learning curve is crazy high like 8/9 out of 10 (again from a 1-10 scale), then I might have to back out.

 

[Berserker.]

I think there are some cases like that. Some people don't really have a hard time picking up Shulk. Maximizing his potential is where it gets difficult. I can't lie about his learning curve but it's definitely a 10. He's hard to master, with techs like MALLC, and maybe MADC (Situational tech though), and key elements to his arts (buster art's low knockback and high damage and how to use that to perform insane combos, how to control speed art in general, how to NOT get hit in jump art, how to exploit shield's ability to take significantly less hitsun, how to use smash art at the right time). Add to that, perfect pivoting is also vital for Shulk although we haven't really labbed that much with it. Speed Shulk has the longest PP distance in the game, so yeah. PP'ing may be an important tech for Shulk too. Picking him up as a character is dependent on the player's skill and ability

 

[Masonomace]

On a scale of 1-10, how difficult would you say it is to play this character?

Honestly, I rate him at least a 7. And rating Shulk as a whole which includes Customs, I'd say at least an 8 or 9/10

Does he have any must-know techniques to even be decent with him that are like hard to execute or something (besides Art Landing Lag Cancels or stuff like that)?

Truthfully, I feel that there are two vital things that are a must-know to learn, but they're not really techniques.

First, we have Art cycling & Art deactivation. Simple right? Well by itself yeah because pressing the special button three times consecutively or by holding the special button for one second isn't hard. But, when you talk about playing a match regardless of whether it's Singles Doubles or Free For Alls, juggling your inputs while cycling or deactivating arts gets difficult. It's especially difficult if you're doing so much as Vectoring / DI'ing an attack & immediately wanting to deactivate an art during hitstun for adapting to each & every situation.

Second, we have delaying Air Slash. It's when you input Air Slash & intentionally wait until the Monado is retracting as it's behind Shulk. Once you see that motion indicator is a great time to input the second hit of Air Slash. Here's a controller map input to show for Gamecube controller that can be converted for any other controller:

Recovering to the left

1. 
2. Immediately hold to the to slightly drift forward as your first hit of Air Slash is rising up
3. Wait for the right moment to delay it at best because Shulk still drifts forward while you're not quickly inputting the second hit
4. Either press , , , or flick the in any direction to input the second hit of Air Slash

Recovering to the right

1. 
   
2. Immediately hold to the to slightly drift forward as your first hit of Air Slash is rising up
3. Wait for the right moment to delay it at best because Shulk still drifts forward while you're not quickly inputting the second hit
4. Either press , , , or flick the in any direction to input the second hit of Air Slash

It's also possible to drift Air Slash backwards. But basically what delaying the second hit of Air Slash does for you is optimize your recovery to the fullest. --- Let's say you're Shulk & you're recovering from the mid-low part of the screen off-stage without a second jump. So if you tried to input Air Slash normally, you would never be able to recover to the ledge because you didn't reach far enough to be in the magnet zone so-to-speak. However, if you were to delay the second hit of Air Slash while you were holding the control stick towards the stage you're able to drift more horizontally while still using the vertical height from the first rising hit of Air Slash. I believe that this is the most optimized way of improving your recovery with Air Slash & it's really handy in case your opponent decides to edge-guard you at mid-low instead of letting you recover from much lower.

Hoped that helped. Sorry if it didn't.

 

[Heracr055]

Hello Shulk players!
I want to know if there are any famous Shulk players that I can watch on YouTube. I'm interested in seeing somebody considered excellent play as him.

 

[Masonomace]

@ Berserker. Some suggestions below.

Q: How long do Monado arts last?
A: Approximately 16 seconds

AND

Q: How long is its cooldown?
A: Monado Arts: 16 seconds, 10 second cooldown
Decisive Monado Arts: 20 seconds, 5 second cooldown
Hyper Monado Arts: 6 seconds, 15 second cooldown

These two Q&A's could be combined into one Q&A and be edited to say:

Q: How long is the duration & cooldown for Monado arts, Decisive arts, & Hyper arts?
A: Monado arts last about 16 seconds & 10 seconds of cooldown
Decisive arts last about 20 seconds & 5 seconds of cooldown
Hyper arts last about 6 seconds & 15 seconds of cooldown

Q: What's the monado's sweetspot?
A: The base of his monado. Not the tip. For N-air, it's the tip

This can be edited to say:
Q: Where is the monado's sweetspot?
A: It's kinda complicated but for the most part, the Blade is Shulk's dominant sweetspot in the majority of his attacks, though there are a few exceptions to this. The Blade as a term itself is used to describe the red monado sword Shulk swings around. If you want to find out more about Shulk's sweetspots, check the info in this original post

Q: Does Shulk's counter scale with the countered attack's damage?
A: Yes, but only when the damage of the attack is 6.16% or more. So if the total damage dealt 6% or lower, only Vision's 10% base damage will apply.

I forgot to tell ya that I slightly edited my last post, but this can be edited to say:
Q: Does Shulk's counter scale with the countered attack's damage?
A: Yes, Vision's 1.3x multiplier will apply but only when the damage of the attack is 6.16% or more. So if the attack's total damage deals 6% or lower, then just Vision's 10% base damage applies in either the regular counterattack or the Forwarded variation

Q: Does Monado Jump decrease your weight?
A: No it does not. The added knockback is due to the increased damage received (+22%)

This Q&A can be edited to say:
Q: Does Monado Jump affect your weight?
A: No. The Jump arts do not affect Shulk's weight. On one hand, the Jump arts add extra knockback taken due to the increased damage received. On the other hand, the Jump arts also increase Shulk's fall speed which helps resist against vertical knockback, but this also causes Shulk to be prone to being juggled in the air by aerial combos

 

[Berserker.]

I'll add those changes when I have the time to

tyty

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hello Shulk players!
I want to know if there are any famous Shulk players that I can watch on YouTube. I'm interested in seeing somebody considered excellent play as him.

You might want to try jerm/Distant kingdom or trela and Gnes. They recently started a twitch channel called fire nation smash, however, Trela doesn't play shulk much.

 

[Masonomace]

@ Berserker. Just a very slight update / edit of some past Q&A's:

Q: How long is the duration & cooldown for Monado arts, Decisive arts, & Hyper arts?
A: Monado arts last for exactly 16 seconds (960 frames) & about 10 seconds of cooldown
Decisive arts last for exactly 20 seconds (1200 frames) & about 5 seconds of cooldown
Hyper arts last for exactly 6 seconds (360 frames) & about 15 seconds of cooldown

Q: Does Shulk's counter scale with the countered attack's damage?
A: Yes. Something important to note is when countering a move that deals high enough damage to become Vision's damage, the damage won't change if you use the Forwarded variation. Though, the Forwarded variation definitely deals more knockback growth.
(Example: In Training Mode, one Shulk D-tilts from the center of Omega Gaur Plains & the other Shulk Power Visions him. The Deadly Blow effect appears for the regular counter at 109% but when using the Forwarded variation the Deadly Blow effect appears at 106%.)

Vision's 1.3x multiplier applies when the attacks' damage is 6.16% or more. So if the attack deals 6% or lower, then just Vision's 10% base damage is calculated or 13% for the Forwarded variation

Dash Vision's 1.0x multiplier doesn't apply additional damage but Dash Vision's damage can change. Dash Vision regularly deals 8% & 11% for the Forwarded variation if the countered move dealt less than 6%, but if the move deals 6% or more, that becomes Dash Vision's damage.

Power Vision's 1.5x multiplier applies when the attack's damage is 6.72% or more. So if the attack deals less than 6.72%, then just Power Vision's 17% base damage is calculated or 20% for the Forwarded variation.
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
New Q&A:

Q: Does the Decisive arts have the same drawbacks like the Monado arts?
A: Mostly yes.
Decisive Jump & Monado Jump take the same amount of knockback.
Decisive Speed & Monado Speed deal the same damage.
Decisive Shield & Monado Shield deal the same damage, jump height, ground speed, & air speed.
Decisive Buster & Monado Buster take the same amount of knockback & deal the same amount of knockback.
Decisive Smash & Monado Smash deal the same damage & take the same amount of knockback.

However, Decisive Speed does have a lower jump height stat than Monado Speed.

 

[Berserker.]

I updated the thread OP

I only got a part of your update of the QA regarding Shulk's counter scaling just to keep things short and simple

 

[Masonomace]

More Q&A suggestive edits:

Q: Does Monado speed increase your attack speed also?
A: No, it doesn't. It increases Shulk's ground speed. It also weakens his damage by 20%

Q: Does Monado speed also increase your attack speed?
A: No. Monado Speed increases ground speed, air speed & traction. It also decreases jump height & his damage by 20% (0.8x).

Q: Does Monado jump increase your recovery, air speed and falling speed?
A: Yes they do. Shulk's recovery distance increases. His air speed becomes the fastest in the game w/o customs. His fall speed is also significantly increased

Q: Does Monado jump increase your recovery, air speed and falling speed?
A: Yes. Shulk's overall recovery improves immensely. W/o customs, Jump Shulk's short hop & full hop jump the highest & his doublejump rivals Mewtwo's & Yoshi's doublejump. His air speed becomes the fastest in the game w/o customs. His fall speed is also significantly increased to match around Falco's fall speed, & the vertical height to both hits of Air Slash are greatly improved too.

Q: Is back slash actually useful for something?
A: Not really. No. It's useful for punishing but you have better options. At the moment, back slash isn't really useful for anything, really

Q: Is back slash actually useful for something?
A: Actually. . .yes, yes it is. The recent 1.1.0 patch buffed Back Slash, so now the move's startup being Frame 22 instead of the old Frame 31 allows it to be a better mix-up punish option especially used for ledge reads & cross-ups.

That's all I got for now.

 

[Masonomace]

Double posting on purpose since I'm asking a much desired question wanting to be answered:

Q: How long is the invincibility duration in a Monado art activation?
A: ?? TBA (To Be Answered)

My supposed answer: Frame 1 - 13 when standing & not acting with any movement option that would otherwise interrupt Shulk's unique pose he makes with the art activation.

When you act quickly out of your art activation whether you put up shield, start to run away, crouch, begin a jumpsquat, put up shield, ANYTHING, your invincibility window heavily decreases by so much that even another Shulk's Frame 5 - 6 Jab1 hitbox hits Shulk if he interrupts the pose. I feel the Frame window when interrupting the pose is 1 - 4

Disclaimer: I do not have a capture card device to convince what I'm saying is right. I could definitely be wrong about the frames.

What I did: I used Training Mode's 1/4x (Hold L) speed & very lightly tapped L repeatedly until I saw a slight movement Shulk starts to do even before the Monado art by Shulk's character portrait strongly flashes once to indicate the art activating. Once I saw that slight movement he makes, I would have Little Mac hold the a button to perform his Jab1 which is Frame 1. I feel confident that the invincibility window is similar to 1 - 13 also because I did multiple attempts to get that very slight movement Shulk starts doing & had the other Shulk already preparing a crouch & performed a Forward Tilt which lasts from Frame 12 - 13. When you do this process precisely, Shulk's Monado art activation evades F-tilt's hitbox window.

Trying to figure out the interrupted invincibility window of the Monado art activation, I used Diddy Kong's Frame 3 - 4 window for his Jab1 hitbox & had the Shulk crouch, shield, run away, jump, anything, & he was able to crouch not getting hit, shield came up immediately after his arm swing finishes, basically Shulk wasn't harmed. So to make sure it wasn't Frame 1 - 5, I had Wii Fit Trainer looking away & tried precisely timing the art activation while holding a to make WFT Jab1 from behind which is Frame 5 & lasts for only Frame 5. So when I had Shulk perform any action to interrupt the pose, Shulk would get hit but when I hold shield, Shulk perfect shields.

Again. . .I can't stress that this could be incorrect, but I do know for a fact that interrupting the pose does reduce the amount of invincibility. So from now on, if you want to utilize the invincibility, then let the pose do its thing. This is undeniably true.

 

[Berserker.]

Monado art intangibility actually varies depending on the art activated iirc

 

[Masonomace]

Oh right it is intangibility. Monado arts from what I was finding didn't really have a difference but eh no capture card to assure that claim. The worst arts arguably would be Jump & Smash because Shulk raises his hand in both arts. So when I tried testing Shulk's U-tilt vs the other Shulk's Monado art's intangibility, Speed ducked lower thus avoiding U-tilt's Blade hitbox window, Shield & Buster don't really duck low & just stand around normal height still avoiding U-tilt Blade, & then Jump & Smash get hit because Shulk raises his hand higher.

 

[MaxRevenge]

Does the invincibility actually start on frame 1? If so, I should really begin using MALLC more often ...

 

[Masonomace]

Does the invincibility actually start on frame 1? If so, I should really begin using MALLC more often ...

I know I said that I feel it's frame 1, but it could not be frame 1. I'd too like to know the true answer to the question.

EDIT: Btw for your signature, I should mention that Hyper Shield isn't the only one. Decisive Shield can crouch to crouch cancel knockback from center stage just enough to survive Critical Hit. If you crouch then DI holding your joystick immediately after being hit during Critical Hit's freeze frames, you can make it back to the ledge without needing Advancing Air Slash at 0%.

 

[Sora66]

Is their an easier way to do MALLC? Like I get how to do it but going from "X" to "B" (X being my jump button and B being my special button) is bothersome and sometimes I get wrong inputs. Do you think I should change my jump button to the R.(the right bumper). Do you think it should ease the issue? Have been using shulk for a while now and learned MALLC from Jerm in March, so not a noob haha. Btw I use the Wii u pro controller.

 

[Masonomace]

Do you think I should change my jump button to the R.(the right bumper).

I think whatever fits most comfortably for your control setup is best. I use a gamecube controller and my jump button is and my specials button is , so I have to slide my thumb sideways from x to b and mash it to get whatever art I want out of a short hop, full hop, or doublejump.

I'd set your Y button as your Specials button for the easy swipe from X to Y and make B whatever you wanted. However, I don't know your preferences or your wiiu pro controller's control scheme.

Do you think it should ease the issue?

Setting the R trigger button as jump? That's up to your judgement and the thoughts from others who consistently use their wiiu pro R trigger as their jump button. You probably had this in mind for also using Air Slash out of shield I'm guessing, which is nice. You also have to get accustomed with tapping it to perform a short hop, which I do not have a feel for that much.

 

[Rawbinator]

I use Pro controller as well. I set my left shoulder to jump while my right shoulder is grab, and the two triggers are shield. For MALLC, you can also use the Y button since it is closer to B. I actually have three jump buttons, X, Y, and Left bumper and I use them for different situations.

For aerial attacks I like left bumper + right stick controls (except for nair).
For jump cancelling Up smash or Air Slash, I use X+A and Y+B respectively, since it's pretty easy to press the two buttons at about the same time using your thumb. Easier than using a shoulder button for jump cancelling (imo)

 

[MaxRevenge]

Now that Roy is out, who do you think has the best counter overall (without factoring in the Monado arts)?

Here's a few thigns I've gathered:

Roy: 1.35x damage multiplier
Shulk: 1.3x damage multiplier

Roy's counter kills earlier than Shulk's standard vision (the slower one). However Shulk's forward vision kills earlier than Roy's counter.

I'd like to think Shulk's counter is better, but that 0.05x advantage Roy has is bugging me lol

 

[Berserker.]

Vision's active frames are still much longer than Roy's counter (by a lot). Also if it means something, Shulk's vision deals 10% damage (sweetspotted) which is higher than Roy's counter base damage. Smash art vision is really insane though so there's that. What Roy's counter has over Shulk though is the slight damage increase (5% difference) and it also comes out faster.

I think Shulk's counter is still better but then again, it's just my opinion

 

[MaxRevenge]

I'm also a bit confused on how their counters scale with damage.

Roy's counter apparently doesn't do anything against weak attacks (e.g. small projectiles, jabs, etc). Shulk's grounded forward vision kills ridiculously early if you counter a jab. I remember killing a falcon near the ledge by countering his Jab at around 60%.

I just tried Roy's counter with a jab, and it did nothing. In fact the knockbakc was so little I don't think it would have killed until like 400%. This was very surprising. What's up with that?