Q&A U WOT M8 - Shulk Q&A (READ THIS MESSAGE: PLEASE READ BEFORE MAKING A THREAD)

[Peppa]

As...interesting as that looks as well I don't think it'd be very easy timing the arts when getting hit at the same time too productively

 

[RavensArk]

As...interesting as that looks as well I don't think it'd be very easy timing the arts when getting hit at the same time too productively

Sounds good in paper but terrible in matches. lol

 

[Berserker.]

@RavenArk

Merged your double post. Avoid double posting please. Thaaanks

 

[Xenoblade Hero]

I was directed here by berserker, hope you guys can answer my question!

I feel Shulk is an excellent character pick within this game, especially with his excellent disjointed range and high damage output. Like all other characters in Smash 4 though he has his weaknesses; in Shulk's case Monado Arts cooldown and problems with some rushdown characters. Therefore I was wondering what characters would you all say are good picks alongside him in a competitive setting to deal with said weaknesses?

 

[Berserker.]

Any top tier would work well as a reliable secondary for Shulk

A non top tier? Not really sure. Does count?

 

[Masonomace]

So I play ness and need a char who deals with disjointed moves. Shulk looks fun and usable. I've gotten almost everything down cept BS. Should I even use it? When?

I don't recommend using Back Slash too often, but you can think about the option to Back Slash someone after every Back Throw you input. Anytime someone's back is turned facing you, think about the idea of Back Slash but do not fully commit to it unless you feel daring & know that they can be hit.

Examples of when backs are turned to you for slaying:

1. Back Throw / partner's Back Throw in Team Battle
2. Back Airs in Neutral Game / spaced Back Airs
3. Missed tech opportunity from a follow-up
4. Punishing someone's landing in case they airdodge regardless of their direction

You can also B-Reverse & WaveBounce Back Slash which stalls the move's hit upon impact to the ground. Keep in mind that they reduce the range of Back Slash as it would be unfortunate to whiff the move by doing so, but the range reduction is small.

I think you'd have more fun styling with Back Slash more than anything, especially with Back Slash Leap.
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Question:

• Does activating a Monado Art while coming off the revival platform extend your invincibility time?

 

[DarkBlueSpark]

How does Shulk deal with faster characters?

I've been playing this game since it came out for 3DS and am still looking for a main. Looking for someone with a good grab game, good aerials, and a good offstage game. And yet, I liked Shulk, even though I don't believe he fulfils those 3 traits. I really like the concept of the Monado arts and love his counter for some reason. But I'm having trouble getting used to a lot of his attacks, especially his aerials cuz they're kinda laggy and i can't usually get the attack out before I hit the ground, so I have trouble landing a lot of attacks like bair. I really do want to make this guy work as my main though, I find him the most interesting out of the entire roster.

 

[Zatchiel]

Does activating a Monado Art while coming off the revival platform extend your invincibility time?

I believe it can, but if the art activates while your frames are still going then they will just overlap rather than extend. If the frames end just before the art activates, you'll get those few frames extra.

How does Shulk deal with faster characters?

I've been playing this game since it came out for 3DS and am still looking for a main. Looking for someone with a good grab game, good aerials, and a good offstage game. And yet, I liked Shulk, even though I don't believe he fulfils those 3 traits. I really like the concept of the Monado arts and love his counter for some reason. But I'm having trouble getting used to a lot of his attacks, especially his aerials cuz they're kinda laggy and i can't usually get the attack out before I hit the ground, so I have trouble landing a lot of attacks like bair. I really do want to make this guy work as my main though, I find him the most interesting out of the entire roster.

Approach. Don't think about spacing as often as you usually would, since the more agile characters can get in against Shulk's range with no problem.

Shulk has a pretty excellent grab game, great aerials, and with Jump his offstage game is rather remarkable.

I had the same problem with his attacks (specifically his aerials). As you play him more and begin to practice with movement and his ATs, he'll start to feel a lot less sluggish.

 

[Piford]

Should I use angled Forward Smashes instead of normal ones because the hitbox stays out a frame longer, or is the reduced horizontal distance not worth it? Or should I just aim for wherever the character is?

 

[Zatchiel]

Should I use angled Forward Smashes instead of normal ones because the hitbox stays out a frame longer, or is the reduced horizontal distance not worth it? Or should I just aim for wherever the character is?

Angle up for slightly better knockback and hitting people that are in the air.

Angled down, it's best for hitting people on the ledge when they don't have invincibility frames. The second hit is ideal for doing that, so you'll usually have to distance yourself from the ledge a little.

Or should I just aim for wherever the character is?

Not a bad idea.

 

[Masonomace]

Should I use angled Forward Smashes instead of normal ones because the hitbox stays out a frame longer, or is the reduced horizontal distance not worth it? Or should I just aim for wherever the character is?

This varies, but recently I remind myself why I should angle FSmash with matches & thanks to the Maximum Horizontal Range test I did for Shulks moves.

I angle FSmash up when:

• Having a Buster Art active & punishing an option with up-angled FSmash at early percents to avoid revenge damage
• Hitting large characters that don't possess a low crouch
• I want to KO a character sooner per-say with a Smash Art
• The opponent is airborne & doesn't land properly (props to @ Zatchiel for this point)
• I'm playing on stages including objects / terrain I can use to extend FSmash's hitlag like Castle Siege's breakable statues, or a character's item / summoning

I angle FSmash down when:

• I'm punishing tiny characters that crouch low (Be careful doing this because they could hold up to make the 2nd hit whiff)
• Ledge-trumping characters that regrab the ledge without invincibility (props to @ Zatchiel for this point)
• Edge-guarding the ledge at times the character is recovering to the ledge right before they snap to it
• I'm playing on stages including objects / terrain I can use to extend FSmash's hitlag like Castle Siege's breakable statues, or a character's item

Overall, I feel it's key to utilize angling FSmash in worthy situations. Aiming where the character is also does good.

 

[The_Goofyborn]

Not really sure if this has been touched on, but has anyone ever gone off stage with forward vision? I didn't even know it was possible, but I did it the other day (I can upload a vid for proof if this has never happened before) and apparently it puts Shulk in a free-fall state (so we shouldn't do it lol.) Kind of weird, really. Anyone else experience this?

 

[erico9001]

I think it's easier to show then tell. Sorry for the bad quality.

Okay, what happens here is Shulk barely takes any knockback, so he is able to land so that the grounded version of the Monado Art Activation Animation is able to begin. However, that does not prevent him from sliding from the attack. The grounded version of the animation ends up in the air. For most moves, like grounded back slash, this would have to happen with a windbox, but Monado Art activation is the only animation that can end up being started directly after an attack like this. Anyways, grounded versions of moves were not expected to be able to end up in the air. For some reason within the coding, grounded versions of moves do not fall while in the air. When the animation is over, things proceed as normal.

I was directed here by berserker, hope you guys can answer my question!

Is there another series you like? If so, just give a character from it a try. Shulk is by far the hardest character, so you'll be surprised at how easy most of the others are.

Not really sure if this has been touched on, but has anyone ever gone off stage with forward vision? I didn't even know it was possible, but I did it the other day (I can upload a vid for proof if this has never happened before) and apparently it puts Shulk in a free-fall state (so we shouldn't do it lol.) Kind of weird, really. Anyone else experience this?

I'm curious about this. Forwarded vision has a coding that prevents it from going off the edge. Under what circumstance did you end up off the edge with it? It's interesting that you are put in that free-fall state, too.

 

[Masonomace]

Not really sure if this has been touched on, but has anyone ever gone off stage with forward vision? I didn't even know it was possible, but I did it the other day (I can upload a vid for proof if this has never happened before) and apparently it puts Shulk in a free-fall state (so we shouldn't do it lol.) Kind of weird, really. Anyone else experience this?

I definitely have not experienced this. The weirdest thing I've ever had happen with Vision was Dash Vision Slide going completely offstage when I never expected it to even travel that much distance in the first place. I'm interested in your vid now that you mention this.

 

[The_Goofyborn]

I definitely have not experienced this. The weirdest thing I've ever had happen with Vision was Dash Vision Slide going completely offstage when I never expected it to even travel that much distance in the first place. I'm interested in your vid now that you mention this.

I'm curious about this. Forwarded vision has a coding that prevents it from going off the edge. Under what circumstance did you end up off the edge with it? It's interesting that you are put in that free-fall state, too.

Yeah this was definitely an odd occurrence, glad to know that this isn't something that commonly happens to other Shulks, haha.

Anyway, I was just playing a random For Glory match while waiting for my doubles partner to hop online and ended up fighting a better than better than average Puff (which always surprises me when I find a smart player on FG.) At the end of my first stock, I decided to go for a vision counter on the Jiggily's Roll Out and made it a forwarded vision to ensure it hit and Shulk went too forward, as if the man had butter on his heels.

If I really need too, I can just upload the video, but I made a gif of it. Just let me know if this gif doesn't suffice.
Here you go. It's weird, right? Like Shulk stands in midair to sheath the Monado before plummeting to his death. I'm not sure how this gets triggered, but I'm just gonna shoot out a warning to my fellow Monado wielders, let's not try to vision a Roll Out near the ledge, eh? Bad things happen.

 

[erico9001]

Yeah this was definitely an odd occurrence, glad to know that this isn't something that commonly happens to other Shulks, haha.

Anyway, I was just playing a random For Glory match while waiting for my doubles partner to hop online and ended up fighting a better than better than average Puff (which always surprises me when I find a smart player on FG.) At the end of my first stock, I decided to go for a vision counter on the Jiggily's Roll Out and made it a forwarded vision to ensure it hit and Shulk went too forward, as if the man had butter on his heels.

If I really need too, I can just upload the video, but I made a gif of it. Just let me know if this gif doesn't suffice.
Here you go. It's weird, right? Like Shulk stands in midair to sheath the Monado before plummeting to his death. I'm not sure how this gets triggered, but I'm just gonna shoot out a warning to my fellow Monado wielders, let's not try to vision a Roll Out near the ledge, eh? Bad things happen.

Ah. It's actually because the vision activates right at the transition between air and ground. That's just like the super dash vision glitch. Glitches always tend to happen when in the transition between an aerial state and a grounded state. I ran into many while I was making my Shulk brawl mod, and there was also that infinite Greninja Shadow Sneak glitch.

 

[Deleted member]

So, 2 questions about Vision (2nd's more related to Power custom):

1). I tried countering Yoshi's eggs the other day. Vision would activate...and Shulk would still get hit (wat). Is there something going on here? I thought it might have something to do with multi hit attacks, but I was able to counter stuff like PK Fire (Arc Fire I haven't tried against) and surprisingly enough, Thoron (though I used Power Vision here). I also played some Shulk dittos before where I would hit a Shulk who's directly above me with USmash, Vision would activate against the first hit...but he would still get hit by the 2nd part of USmash.

2) With Power Vision, does the opponent not slowdown if they hit Shulk's counter with a projectile? I've had opponents that were able to roll around the counter hit if they activate with a projectile.

 

[The_Goofyborn]

Ah. It's actually because the vision activates right at the transition between air and ground. That's just like the super dash vision glitch. Glitches always tend to happen when in the transition between an aerial state and a grounded state. I ran into many while I was making my Shulk brawl mod, and there was also that infinite Greninja Shadow Sneak glitch.

Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification here, friend. It makes sense, as I rarely ever use vision that soon after landing, so I've never really encountered something like this. So I guess we should all be careful using forward vision after just transitioning to the ground.... That sounds way too specific to ever be a big problem haha.

 

[Masonomace]

So, 2 questions about Vision (2nd's more related to Power custom):

1). I tried countering Yoshi's eggs the other day. Vision would activate...and Shulk would still get hit (wat). Is there something going on here? I thought it might have something to do with multi hit attacks, but I was able to counter stuff like PK Fire (Arc Fire I haven't tried against) and surprisingly enough, Thoron (though I used Power Vision here). I also played some Shulk dittos before where I would hit a Shulk who's directly above me with USmash, Vision would activate against the first hit...but he would still get hit by the 2nd part of USmash.

2) With Power Vision, does the opponent not slowdown if they hit Shulk's counter with a projectile? I've had opponents that were able to roll around the counter hit if they activate with a projectile.

1). Yoshi's egg & some other projectiles tend to say no to Vision done airborne. Airborne Vision doesn't have as much intangibility / invincibility (Idk if it's one or the other) as the grounded Vision which is why multi-hits can outbeat Vision or trade best-case scenario. Take it from me, I was Shulk vs another Shulk who used Vision airborne & I DAir'd. The 1st hit of DAir ctivated the Vision & I took the hit but at the same time, the 2nd hit of DAir meteor'd the other Shulk.

2). Most projectiles do not force the user who casted / threw / fired the projectile to be slowed down. This applies to all Visions, not just Power Vision.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

1). Yoshi's egg & some other projectiles tend to say no to Vision done airborne.

Wait, so does grounded Vision work on Yoshi's egg?

 

[Masonomace]

Wait, so does grounded Vision work on Yoshi's egg?

Yes grounded Vision & Grounded Forwarded Vision work against Egg Throw

 

[Deleted member]

1). Yoshi's egg & some other projectiles tend to say no to Vision done airborne. Airborne Vision doesn't have as much intangibility / invincibility (Idk if it's one or the other) as the grounded Vision which is why multi-hits can outbeat Vision or trade best-case scenario. Take it from me, I was Shulk vs another Shulk who used Vision airborne & I DAir'd. The 1st hit activated the Vision & we both took the hit but the 2nd hit of DAir meteor'd the other Shulk down.

2). Most projectiles do not force the user who casted / threw / fired the projectile to be slowed down. This applies to all Visions, not just Power Vision.

Ah, that's interesting...guess I'll have to try and handle Yoshi's eggs another way. Thanks!

 

[LordShade67]

New-ish Shulk player here. Been recently messing around with him and I kinda got a feel of vanilla Shulk(I played Marth in Brawl and PM, so the similarities are there), and not gonna lie. He's actually pretty fun to lab. But just a few curiosities.

1. Does Shulk have any unwinnable MUs, so to speak? And if so, which ones? I currently also play Zamus, so....yeah.
2. Vision. Is it possible to do the Vision's dash counter if the opponent's behind you when it's active?
3. How is Monado Boy in doubles? IIRC, Marth in PM anyway was kinda weak in Doubles, so assuming Shulk is also a spacing character, I'd think he'd have it rough?

 

[Nammy12]

New-ish Shulk player here. Been recently messing around with him and I kinda got a feel of vanilla Shulk(I played Marth in Brawl and PM, so the similarities are there), and not gonna lie. He's actually pretty fun to lab. But just a few curiosities.

1. Does Shulk have any unwinnable MUs, so to speak? And if so, which ones? I currently also play Zamus, so....yeah.
2. Vision. Is it possible to do the Vision's dash counter if the opponent's behind you when it's active?
3. How is Monado Boy in doubles? IIRC, Marth in PM anyway was kinda weak in Doubles, so assuming Shulk is also a spacing character, I'd think he'd have it rough?

1. He doesn't have unwinnable matchups, but he does have some difficult ones. Especially against faster characters such as Fox, Sonic, Shiek since Shulk tends to be combo meat, and his moves are fairly slow. You'll have to focus on spacing them out with your range.
2. You can forward the vision if you're on the ground regardless of the direction the attack is coming from.
3. Shulk's Monado Arts give him lots of options in doubles imo. He can fill a bunch of roles with different arts. Damage with Buster, stock tank with Shield, get kills with Jump, Smash.

 

[wertyou2]

So, quick backstory: I've been playing Smash for a whopping 8 months (the whole series, not just Smash 4). I'm still pretty terrible. I started with Mega Man, played him for about 6 months after realizing I wasn't the biggest fan of his play style. I then played with Shulk for a few weeks and I really like him, but I hated how slow all his moves were. It wasn't just the landing lag on aerials, because I was aware of MALLC (admittedly I didn't try to learn it, sorry), I also hated the start up time on aerials and grounded moves, and the ending lag on them. After that, I picked up DK, who I liked for the most part, but then I found Luigi. I loved him because he seemed more rush down than anyone before who I had played.

However, I really wish I could've liked Shulk, seeing as his Monando Arts were fun, and watching people who were actually skilled play him was kind of amazing. So the point of all this is to ask if I should try and pick Shulk back up with something new in mind that I was unaware of, or if it seems like I just wouldn't like him regardless of all the techs there are. Because again, I'm quite terrible, and another reason I enjoyed Luigi and DK is that they didn't require insane amounts of technical skill to be good at, and my criminally low self doesn't react well to repeated failures without tech skill. From what I understand, Shulk is incredibly difficult to play, but I want to learn. However, I'm afraid my lack of overall skill with the game mixed with my other issues will make it a bad idea. Your thoughts? (sorry if I shouldn't have asked this).

 

[Zatchiel]

Shulk is incredibly difficult to play, but I want to learn.

You can. We're here to help when you need it, but you have a sea of knowledge about this character that is clicks away.

However, I'm afraid my lack of overall skill with the game mixed with my other issues will make it a bad idea. Your thoughts? (sorry if I shouldn't have asked this).

I think you're worrying too much. You can play and learn any character without complicating your mistakes. There's always going to be something you can improve upon anyway. You'll see development over time if you commit.

 

[wertyou2]

What about my dislike at the speed of his moves (particularly the start up)? Is there anyway to get around that, for example me playing differently?

 

[Maple42]

You want to space out to where your opponent is at the tip of the sword; that way, the terrible frame data is circumvented. Also, NAir and FAir have reasonable landing lag, and can be safer by using Speed or Jump.
Also, if you're getting juggled, your moves may not be quick enough to react to the next action in time, so that can be an issue of air dodging unpredictably.

 

[Masonomace]

What about my dislike at the speed of his moves (particularly the start up)? Is there anyway to get around that, for example me playing differently?

For a decent lesson as a remedy for this, utilize & memorize the hitboxes of Shulk's moves especially his aerials.

N-air starts being active from behind Shulk. You can Reverse Aerial Rush aka pivot your direction in mid-run & jump to reverse your direction backwards so that N-air is suddenly in front.

F-air starts from above Shulk, but it's not right above Shulk. I'd say it's 80° as an angle example of where it starts. You can use this while rising with a doublejump to stuff the opponent's attempt of edge-guarding you if you recover from low. F-air can also hit through a stage's ledge area with all that range.

B-air starts in front of Shulk, hits underneath, then behind having great range. Other than RAR B-air, the move has a good poking feeling, & hitting with the sourspot is great spacing.

U-air & D-air are up to you. These aerials are less used but they have their applications.

Mainly you want to get used to spacing with sourspots except N-air spaced is hitting with the sweetspot. And always make sure to retreat your drifting while applying some fast falling to mitigate the chance for your opponent to punish as hard.

EDIT: I see Ms. Maple has it covered.

 

[wertyou2]

What about against faster, rushdown characters? Ill admit I've always had a problem with them though, not just when I'm playing Shulk.

 

[Berserker.]

What about against faster, rushdown characters? Ill admit I've always had a problem with them though, not just when I'm playing Shulk.

Rushdown characters are not that much of an issue with Shulk tbh. I personally think the buster+shield combo works very well against rushdown characters. You can use shield to reduce the hitsun taken then from that, you punish opponents for actually throwing or hitting you. With buster, you can capitalize on your reward on hit and your advantaged state. You can also maintain mid-range pressure with buster for as long as you use b-air properly (for beating out approaches), f-air (for dealing with air assaults), n-air (for dealing with grounded approaches). Use your tilts and space them properly!

 

[Zatchiel]

What about against faster, rushdown characters? Ill admit I've always had a problem with them though, not just when I'm playing Shulk.

Shulk's frame data is his Achilles's Heel. It'd make sense that he'd have a touch time against characters that can get in and attack before he can even get out a counterattack.

First and foremost, you should try to keep your feet on the ground when the opponent is grounded too. This goes double for characters that can basically teleport under you when you're in the air and they're on the ground.

Second, Buster is a great art to use in general, especially if your attacks are getting stuffed by shields. Back aerial in Buster eats shields up. Just make sure you switch up the timing so that the opponent either shields it normally or gets hit, instead of letting them powershield.

Lastly, Speed and Jump are good mobility wise, but I would refrain from using Jump if you aren't confident in your movement with it. The extra damage taken is not worth it at all in that case.

 

[wertyou2]

So I should focus on zoning with Shulk? When I played Mega Man I had to work to make sure enemies never got right next to me except when I needed to punish or kill them. Should I work on the same thing with Shulk?

 

[Berserker.]

Edit: I forgot how to read

 

[Zatchiel]

So I should focus on zoning with Shulk? When I played Mega Man I had to work to make sure enemies never got right next to me except when I needed to punish or kill them. Should I work on the same thing with Shulk?

Yes and no. It's apart of his game because of his range, so you can use said range to zone. It's not beneficial for Shulk to really focus on zoning throughout the match though. His attacks are slow and easily adjusted to.

You should play him in a manner that allows you to remain calm while you think about your opponent's next move. Shulk really thrives on premonition/guessing games.

As with any character, I don't think there's only one way to play Shulk. I used to focus on zoning a lot back when I started him, and now I'm almost recklessly aggressive. I don't know. I think it's just a matter of getting comfortable with the character and their meta.

 

[wertyou2]

Use speed and break into Mega Man's zone. Once you're in, use buster art and pummel him from mid-range. I suggest that you space your n-airs and b-airs when breaking through MM's defenses. Also, walk and shield, or dash to shield if you want. Use boost pivot options once you see that the MM whiffs an aerial (for the sake of spacing, most likely)

No, sorry, I meant when I played as mega man. He was my only main for my first 5 months playing the game. It's made learning other characters difficult, seeing as he has such a radically different play style it seems.

Yes and no. It's apart of his game because of his range, so you can use said range to zone. It's not beneficial for Shulk to really focus on zoning throughout the match though. His attacks are slow and easily adjusted to.

You should play him in a manner that allows you to remain calm while you think about your opponent's next move. Shulk really thrives on premonition/guessing games..

What do you mean "easily adjusted to?" Do you mean for the enemy, and if so, how am I mean to get around that?

Also, what if I'm not exactly a calm player? Like, I get very stressed, particularly against characters who I have trouble against or when I'm playing someone who I know wants to practice for competitive play.

 

[Berserker.]

Aaand now I realize that I should never go to this site while being sleepy as ****. Lmao

(Edit)

 

[Zatchiel]

What do you mean "easily adjusted to?" Do you mean for the enemy, and if so, how am I mean to get around that?

Also, what if I'm not exactly a calm player? Like, I get very stressed, particularly against characters who I have trouble against or when I'm playing someone who I know wants to practice for competitive play.

I meant easy for the enemy to adjust to. You will be mixing up a lot with your options to keep yourself as unpredictable as possible.

In fact, one of the main ways you might be working around his attack speed is by not using it. You don't always have to be the first to commit with an attack.

If you get flustered easily, I don't think Shulk is a wise pick. Then again, I was the same way before I picked him up. I developed better patience with him naturally.

 

[Berserker.]

@ W wertyou2 @ Zatchiel

My bad about my irrelevant posting

 

[wertyou2]

I meant easy for the enemy to adjust to. You will be mixing up a lot with your options to keep yourself as unpredictable as possible.

In fact, one of the main ways you might be working around his attack speed is by not using it. You don't always have to be the first to commit with an attack.

If you get flustered easily, I don't think Shulk is a wise pick. Then again, I was the same way before I picked him up. I developed better patience with him naturally.

It's not just getting flustered when things start going badly, it's also just beating myself up when I lose repeatedly (which I know is really stupid and that I shouldn't care so much about a ****ing videogame) and I'd have to imagine that really trying to work out a character as technically difficult as Shulk might lead to that. Admittedly, I did use him for a while, and started to get a grasp on him, but as I think I mentioned earlier I feel like I've been having to relearn the game ever since dropping Mega Man, and I don't know how difficult that'll be with Shulk.