Tyr's Lucas Player's Guide

[Iwan]

^^^
Oh God. I hadn't seen that video. ****. This is going to take all sorts of testing to sort out.

Well I'll start by saying that Lucas's fastest aerials take the same amount of time as his airdodge according to the testing I did on this a long time ago. Dair is bad because it takes a long time but good vertically because you fast fall it. I'm going to look into fast falling other aerials to see if that is more effective for diagonal upward trajectories which I'm guessing it is. I'll also have to look more carefully into his specials. Oh, also Uair sends him slightly downward which kills you earlier horizontally. So as it stands, Fair and Nair can be used interchangably with airdodging for Lucas when hit horizontally. It seems like the video is saying you should fast fall aerials when hit horizontally which really doesn't make sense to me because going downward more would cause you to die earlier? Blastzones are furthest away in the corners so basically you should be aiming for there.

Vertically I need to look into other aerials such as most likely a fast falled Uair to possibly save a few percentage. I'll get back to you.

This is going to be a pain in the *** to test. **** you, Iwan and your youtube video.

lolol. There was a better video posted in Ulevo's thread on using Aerials to stay alive longer. it's simple really: You can always use an aerial before you can airdodge. Always, no matter which character you use. Airdodging shouldn't even be an option before using an aerial, because using an aerial always gives you your second jump back faster, helping you stay alive longer. I'll just link you to Ulevo's thread:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192522

there you are sir. :D

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

I think his fastest aerial would be bair. I tried testing this by doing a full hop, doing an aerial after reaching the approximate peak of the jump, DI away from the ledge so that I don't land on it, and spam the jump button to see when the earliest time it is possible to do a double jump out of the aerial and compare the heights of the double jumps to the ledge. Bair was right below the edge while the others were pretty down there except fair.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

I think his fastest aerial would be bair. I tried testing this by doing a full hop, doing an aerial after reaching the approximate peak of the jump, DI away from the ledge so that I don't land on it, and spam the jump button to see when the earliest time it is possible to do a double jump out of the aerial and compare the heights of the double jumps to the ledge. Bair was right below the edge while the others were pretty down there except fair.

back air is lucas'slowest aerial while down air is his fastest

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

back air is lucas'slowest aerial while down air is his fastest

dair takes too long to end. you would have to use fair or nair.

 

[Tyr_03]

You have to consider both how fast the attack initiates and how fast it ends. Dair initiates quickly but lasts the longest so for horizontal recovery where you need a jump, it is the worst option. It also sends you downward letting you die earlier on side blastzones.

Bair has the opposite problem. It takes the longest time to initiate but allows actions earlier than any other aerial.

Fair and Nair are both the same for testing purposes in starting and ending time and coincidentally take about the same amount of time as Lucas's airdodge, so there is no additional bonus in using an aerial when hit horizontally as opposes to using an airdodge since both will allow you to do an action at the same time.

What I need to test now is for high diagonal trajectories, a fast falled Uair or possibly Fair may be better than Dair because it would allow you to jump earlier, helping your horizontal recovery more while still maintaining the vertical help that I usually use fast falled Dair for.

I doubt Lucas's specials will help him in any way but I'll check it out while I'm at it. It may take a while to get some concrete answers on this. This stuff gets extremely tricky in Brawl. The video leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

 

[Iwan]

Bair has the opposite problem. It takes the longest time to initiate but allows actions earlier than any other aerial.

There you go.

The only problem with lucas is since a lot of us tend to B-stick, we don't have the luxury of C-sticking a bair while also DI'ing properly :/

:[

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

People B-stick because they want to have an easier time wavebouncing PK fire. I find that if it still can be done manually, why sacrifice the opportunity of possibly living to super high percents when you can just work a little bit longer to get use to manually wavebouncing?

 

[Iwan]

People B-stick because they want to have an easier time wavebouncing PK fire. I find that if it still can be done manually, why sacrifice the opportunity of possibly living to super high percents when you can just work a little bit longer to get use to manually wavebouncing?

but is zap jumping also still possible to do manually?

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

but is zap jumping also still possible to do manually?

zap jump has nothing to do with b sticking. All you need is to be able to push jump and b at the same time

 

[Tyr_03]

Iwan you misunderstood me. Bair allows actions earliest after the move has completed. However, since it takes longer to initiate and to complete, you can jump or do any other action faster after a Fair or Nair because they take significantly less time to initiate and complete. Trust me, I've done the testing.

 

[Iwan]

zap jump has nothing to do with b sticking. All you need is to be able to push jump and b at the same time

I'd rather not play claw lol....positioning your hand so that you can press jump and b at the same time would greatly hinder my playstyle. A lot, considering I play with tap jump off. lol.

Also, after messing around in friendlies, c-sticking an Up air (while holding down on the control stick) is the best bet for staying alive both horizontally and vertically. I survived a snake up air at 110 percent using Up air while simultaneously fast falling, and I was pretty close to the top blastzone (this was on smashville).

Testing is definitely nice, but not much is needed at this point: Ulevo found out most of the data and information, while other players further tested it.

FACT: airdodging after you get hit sucks. Don't do it, because using an aerial will always, no matter what, allow you to jump again faster than airdodging. Always. During hit stun, the point at which you can use an aerial will always be faster than when you can airdodge. Even snake stays alive longer using Up air instead of airdodging. The testing has been done on this pretty extensively already.

But like I said, I've been using Up air and unless someone else finds that fair works better, it helps you live longer.

:D

 

[Levitas]

hitstun is what you're thinking of. Hitlag is something else.

 

[Iwan]

hitstun is what you're thinking of. Hitlag is something else.

Edited :D

lol

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

Iwan you misunderstood me. Bair allows actions earliest after the move has completed. However, since it takes longer to initiate and to complete, you can jump or do any other action faster after a Fair or Nair because they take significantly less time to initiate and complete. Trust me, I've done the testing.

I don't know about this... For vertical knockback, we are looking for the aerial with the least starting lag so that we can fastfall asap so duration for that doesn't really matter. In horizontal knockback, the move that comes out the fastest would also be the best option if you decide to do this after DI ing toward the blast zone corners and then fastfalling asap. If you are planning to jump, the move with the least total duration would be the best choice. Also, if Lucas's jumps are so high and using jumps or any other movement altering move causes that "evil boost," wouldn't jumping asap be a bad idea?

 

[Iwan]

I don't know about this... For vertical knockback, we are looking for the aerial with the least starting lag so that we can fastfall asap so duration for that doesn't really matter. In horizontal knockback, the move that comes out the fastest would also be the best option if you decide to do this after DI ing toward the blast zone corners and then fastfalling asap. If you are planning to jump, the move with the least total duration would be the best choice. Also, if Lucas's jumps are so high and using jumps or any other movement altering move causes that "evil boost," wouldn't jumping asap be a bad idea?

That's actually an interesting point. I sort of brushed aside the fact that lucas has a very unique jump compared to every other character (besides ness).

So scratch what I said earlier. Testing is needed

:D

:/

 

[Tyr_03]

Alright I did some simple testing. For vertical recovery, your best option is a fast falled Dair because Dair has some downward force in the move itself much like Fox's upward force on his Fair. A fast falled Dair lets you live about 1-2% longer vertically than other fast falled aerials to let you live a total of 7-8% longer than usual.

Horizontally, airdodging, Fair or Nair followed by jumping will allow you to live longest. Uair sends you slightly downward which will make you die slightly earlier. The same is true with Dair. Don't fastfall an aerial if you're recovering horizontally because it will make you die faster. All of Lucas's specials affect your recovery in a negative way unless used after you jump.

You cannot die from jumping off the screen so jumping immediately should never affect your recovery in a negative way.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

You cannot die from jumping off the screen so jumping immediately should never affect your recovery in a negative way.

well you wont die by jumping off the top but you will if you jump off the side. The tops blast zone has the property where you cant ever force yourself to die off of it. Only your character being forced past the killing point will kill you, but any action that takes your character past the side killing point will kill you.

 

[ToxiCrow]

I'd rather not play claw lol....positioning your hand so that you can press jump and b at the same time would greatly hinder my playstyle. A lot, considering I play with tap jump off. lol.

yeah but switching over for a split second to zap jump doesnt really effect u that much. i used to use the classic remote in order to zap jump easier, but i find clawing with the gamecube remote isnt that bad either.

quick nooby question: PSI-magnet out of a shield; good idea or not?

 

[Levitas]

Bad idea in general. Ftilt or nair instead.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Bad idea in general. Ftilt or nair instead.

i wasnt too sure on what to do out of a shield; upsmash is almost always a bad idea and idk about pk thunder (havent tested it yet). grab out of the shield is terrible against faster characters.
so yeah, jst need some info on that

 

[Tyr_03]

Jumping almost always cancels knockback so you don't die off the side. The only time it doesn't is when you touch an edge after getting hit, cancelling your hitstun but not your knockback. That just does crazy **** to you altogether.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

What about that "evil boost"? You get it when you jump while in hitstun phase two... By doing the aerial and jumping after, you still have yourself in hitstun... Wouldn't this boost be enough to horizontally send you past that blast zone?

 

[Tyr_03]

Hey I finally updated with some stage selection information that I'm going to start working on. Please feel free to give your opinions on any and all stages, neutral or otherwise, for Lucas and I'll consider them in this section. The input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[prOAPC]

personally, i prefer FD over SV
i think Halberd is good for spacing and camping in the last form (where the robotic hand attack you, the big laser and the bomb appears). It's my fav stage
it would be nice if you could be more specific with those stages that change drastically. I mean, something like "in first form is good for..., but in the second..."
dsmash and nair last forever when you hit the statues of the second form

 

[ToxiCrow]

hey tyr i think i might've found a use for PSImagnet.
i'll do more testing to see if this actually works, then i'll let you know afterwards.
possible addition to the guide.

 

[DBZ0wnz]

Great guide ^^

i have no idea which is char is strongest or weakest against Lucas...
plz help !

 

[Tyr_03]

I need to get around to finishing this. I need to update frame data and a few other old things that need to be edited. I'm thinking of taking out stage information and going directly to character matchups which will include good CP stages. I think that might be a more helpful way at looking at stages. Hopefully work on it soon.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Geesh. you are quite the serious, but not so serious, unless you are being serious, which is quite often, guy tyr.

I also would like the update on frame data.

 

[Tyr_03]

Finally got around to updating frame data. Deleted a few things that I didn't think were necesary and cleaned up some spelling and inaccuracies.

I'd like to have a section with game information on Lucas but I've never played Mother 3 so I would need someone else to do it for me. So if any of you die hard Mother fans want to get on that and pm it to me I'll add it in the beginning.

Also, I'm thinking of making a hall of fame with a few reputable Lucas players and possibly one or two representative videos of them. I'm not sure about it though since I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but want to make sure it's a short list of only competent players. There would have to be some objective criteria for getting into it so no one takes it personally. Possibly something like,
-has placed in top ten atleast 3 times
-has placed in top ten in a tournament with more than 30 people
-Uses Lucas for the vast majority of tournament matches if not all
Things like that? I know it's difficult to make good criteria for that since regions are so different and some people simply don't have the same opportunities as others. I'd really like some input on this because I think it's a cool idea but if it's going to upset people then I won't do it.

I'm probably going to wait on matchup info because I need to have personal experience with the matchup and there are a lot that I simply don't know that well. Might start with ones I'm very familiar with or that are very common and just work my way through, leaving those blank that I don't feel confident talking about.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

uhh... i think only galeon and APC reach your criteria, though that criteria probably isn't set in stone as the final criteria.

 

[Tyr_03]

I fit the criteria as well which is what I based it off of. But like I said, differences in region make a huge difference. It's far more difficult to get into top ten on the east coast I would imagine. Maybe I should change it to making it into top ten atleast one time and leave the others. That would hopefully include more people. I think it's important that the people we watch as examples have been at atleast decently sized tournaments, have placed well atleast once and actually used Lucas for most of the time. But I'm looking for input on this to see what you think. I don't want to be all inclusive and I don't want to hurt people's feelings either.

 

[Levitas]

I'll never get top 10 with the MI crowd. Simple as that. It doesn't matter, though. I don't feel like I'm a particularly good lucas anyway. I guess we'll know when you, me, and irsic play.

 

[Irsic]

yeah!

<_<


I think I could still place with the MI crowd, but I'm going to have to actually get some games in with them eventually. >_> I can compete with the Mann and Hot_armS, who are both great players. There needs to be like a Smashfest in Ann Arbor so I can come just chill and play some friendlies.

 

[Levitas]

HA! Come play lain, anther, SP, Bowyer, Omni, Judge, and people who actually win in tournaments. I beat Mann.

 

[Irsic]

I have played Omni, and I don't think he's that amazing. Also really cocky.

 

[Levitas]

well, he is cocky. That's definitely true.

 

[lil cj]

Is Omni a Lucas main?

 

[Levitas]

Nah, he does MK, ICs, and some pit and wolf.

 

[Irsic]

I've played his MK.

 

[Hot_ArmS]

someone called my name =0