Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

[useredsa]

Sooooo do you think it's a timing thing or is this due to the jagged mini slopes (which don't actually seem to be slopes when I walk across them) in the middle of the stage? or Maybe it was duck hunt dog's esrs that created a slope?

edit: Yeah I think it was the dog, the head, it gives a similiar cancel animation when you do it on his head maybe if you timed it just as his head popped out it follows onto the ground

But you did it before he was appearing... perhaps we can do it whenever the dog is under stage... Perhaps we just need to know where the dog is...

 

[ReRaze]

But you did it before he was appearing... perhaps we can do it whenever the dog is under stage... Perhaps we just need to know where the dog is...

I didn't do this lol

The dog is hidden behind the grass when it first starts rising. The dog always appears in the same area once you kill a bird or they both fly away iirc.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's not that you need a slope, it's that you need to hit the ground as you wind up. Should be possible on any platform moving vertically.

Also I've been really lazy about checking this out. It's just, well, I don't think it'll be useful in the long run. Being able to hilldash off of potentially any stage sounds cool until you realize messing up probably means you're getting gimped.

 

[useredsa]

It's not that you need a slope, it's that you need to hit the ground as you wind up. Should be possible on any platform moving vertically.

Also I've been really lazy about checking this out. It's just, well, I don't think it'll be useful in the long run. Being able to hilldash off of potentially any stage sounds cool until you realize messing up probably means you're getting gimped.

We cannot judge a technique based on how hard it is. Once you've mastered it you won't probably fail.

But yeah, it's uses are limited although your rival will never expect it.

 

[LancerStaff]

We cannot judge a technique based on how hard it is. Once you've mastered it you won't probably fail.

But yeah, it's uses are limited although your rival will never expect it.

I prefer to come in assuming that my opponent knows every trick... That way I don't end up relying on matchup inexperience.

Thing is that unless you aren't hit with endlag you might as well just back roll or walk instead of risking a stock. If it's not reliable then people won't take the chance, especially in tournaments.

 

[Koiba]

The dog is hidden behind the grass when it first starts rising. The dog always appears in the same area once you kill a bird or they both fly away iirc.

If you don't kill any ducks the dog will always be in the middle

If you kill one duck it'll be in the spot that fell

If you kill 2 it'll be in the 2nd duck's spot iirc

 

[useredsa]

I prefer to come in assuming that my opponent knows every trick... That way I don't end up relying on matchup inexperience.

Thing is that unless you aren't hit with endlag you might as well just back roll or walk instead of risking a stock. If it's not reliable then people won't take the chance, especially in tournaments.

I see them as different options. It's just another option. Ofc roll is usually better, but that doesn't mean it isn't an option. And I think is a good one.

Btw, your opponent won't expect it even if they know the MU, because as you, they think is a bad option.

 

[LancerStaff]

Spent a good 15-20 minutes trying to replicate it and couldn't get anywhere... Eh, I dunno. May be some freak thing.

 

[GP2]

So has anyone figured out the change to Dark Pit yet? It's really bugging me. I'm hoping it's not a nerf

 

[ReRaze]

So has anyone figured out the change to Dark Pit yet? It's really bugging me. I'm hoping it's not a nerf

If its that hard to find it probably wouldnt have any affect on dark pits gameplay regardless of the change.

 

[CHOMPY]

Has anyone tested the jab lock combo where Pit does a falling uair > footstool > falling dair > fsmash?

 

[ReRaze]

Has anyone tested the jab lock combo where Pit does a falling uair > footstool > falling dair > fsmash?

Its not true in the slightest.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

So I've done some more labbing with Up-throw to Up-air for my combo percent window list. It only has a 3 frame window to get out of it(at least at 0%), Most air dodges in the game come out on frame 3, so the possibility of your opponent escaping is very real, but your opponent has to be frame perfect in order to escape it. However, there are five characters that have a frame 4 air dodge and they are ,,,,. Jigglypuff is too light to be comboed by Upthrow - Up-Air, but the other four get frame trapped and can't escape the combo. I mean, Dedede and Ganon aren't very relevant characters, but this can be useful for Bowser and Ryu. It's a solid 50-50 at 0% that can frame trap certain characters, but can be overshadowed but the more reliable BnBs, I mean, F-throw to Dash attack does the same amount of damage, and has potential for more follow ups so...

What do you guys think? Do you guys think this is a practical BnB? Take my results with a grain of salt, I labbed this with Level 9 cpus, and they have inhuman reaction times(And they're a pain in the ass to get a grab at 0% on).

 

[ReRaze]

So I've done some more labbing with Up-throw to Up-air for my combo percent window list. It only has a 3 frame window to get out of it(at least at 0%), Most air dodges in the game come out on frame 3, so the possibility of your opponent escaping is very real, but your opponent has to be frame perfect in order to escape it. However, there are five characters that have a frame 4 air dodge and they are ,,,,. Jigglypuff is too light to be comboed by Upthrow - Up-Air, but the other four get frame trapped and can't escape the combo. I mean, Dedede and Ganon aren't very relevant characters, but this can be useful for Bowser and Ryu. It's a solid 50-50 at 0% that can frame trap certain characters, but can be overshadowed but the more reliable BnBs, I mean, F-throw to Dash attack does the same amount of damage, and has potential for more follow ups so...

What do you guys think? Do you guys think this is a practical BnB? Take my results with a grain of salt, I labbed this with Level 9 cpus, and they have inhuman reaction times(And they're a pain in the *** to get a grab at 0% on).

I think it's a good tool to have when your oppnent learns to DI fthrow up. especially on battlefield platforms, a full hop uair will autocancel meaning you can get more followups, (e,g i've gotten uair to true combo into usmash though idk what percents).

Also there is something else i've been meaning to lab but couldn't find the time, if someone would like to do it, that would be great, recently I tried out shadff (short hop airdodge fast fall) nair onto an opponent and then mashed A and the jab true comboed. Now, iirc, jab is frame 5. same as down smash. does this mean a down smash is guaranteed off this? also usmash is only 1 frame slower and no airdodge is this fast so is usmash guaranteed as well (you can link shadff nair into usmash on some characters)?
This is completely unsafe but could be a mixup to cach your opponent off guard.

 

[ReRaze]

Hitting sweetspot dair on a grounded opponent will put them into a set amount of hitstun depending on the percent and when reaching higher percents it will groundbounce them. Where I'm heading here is that in the percents where it doesent groundbounce them but puts them into a decent amount of hitstun (50-70%), A shorthop dair near the ledge will put them into that hitstun and as your hurtbox comes into contact with theirs (while they are still in hitstun) it will push them off the ledge (provided they are close enough) (think characters sliding off platforms for jab reset setups). This provides ample time for a followup spike offstage. So if you read a roll towards the ledge or something, our best punish is probably this (aside from electroshock but this is safer)

 

[apparently fuz]

I feel that u-throw may be an underrated throw at lower percentages but haven't tested it fully, so maybe this may not be as viable as I think it may be. If they air-dodge, they suffer landing lag and can guarantee a free grab reset or whatever. If they don't air-dodge, they eat an u-air and suffer from positional disadvantage by remaining in the air (where Pit can potentially capitalise from u-air juggles). This may be a much better low percent option for floaties/fast fallers that aren't susceptible to the d-throw d-air footstool combo.

 

[LancerStaff]

Been thinking Uthrow might just be better overall on Pit. Dthrow > Uair does 16% but can be DI'd, and most of the time people will DI as such if you pummel. Dthrow > Fair is only 13%. Uthrow is 11% and can potentially lead into more damage or a Usmash kill. One arrow after a Uthrow and that's already more then Dthrow > Fair. Though, Dthrow > Fair puts us in a better position to Fthrow the opponent.

 

[ReRaze]

I still think Dthrow is the better throw, So much more options available from it. At low percents even if they DI, there is more than enough time to react, I generally go for bair instead of fair for more damage output anyway, and bair is a too good of a tool in neutral to not stale, unlike fair which is how I generally kill offstage so I keep it fresh. With dthrow you can get dair too which is arguably the best followup damage wise. At higher percents even if they DI away dthrow uair still connects, and dthrow is still the better throw for a hard read followup e.g usmash/fsmash (I get so many early kills charging a smash attack when people try airdodging after dthrow). Uthrow gives them too much time to act because they are so high up. Speaking of uthrow > arrow, I use dthrow > arrow instead (up angled arrow) to catch their jump if you notice they jump away after dthrow instead of airdodging. Catching their jump at this height with an arrow allows for a followups such as usmash or something since up angled arrows have like no endlag, if they airdodge the arrow you get a followup anyway. With uthrow even if you hit them with an arrow there is more room than dthrow to react since they are so high up. Besides at these percents, the fact that uthrow does more damage doesnt matter since you shouldn't still be fishing for damage but rather for the kill. Though at really low percents where uthrow has the possibility of comboing I think it is a good option.

On another note LancerStaff I remember you talking about utilts great hitboxes in the past, how good is it as an anti-air? or are the massive hitboxes only good for horizontal coverage.
Also dthrow> walking/pp utilt > usmash is a thing on some chars.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Yeah, while up-throw does the most damage out of all of Pit's throws, I don't think it's as practical as down-throw, still a solid mix up though. Up-tilt is... weird, sometimes it's a solid tool for pressuring under platforms, but it's still possible to be punished by it and you don't really get much of a reward for even hitting it. I don't think it has a big enough of a hitbox to be a good anti-air, but that's just me being skeptical, I think that side-b, Upsmash, and up-air are better when it comes to anti-airs.

 

[LancerStaff]

You can challenge most anything vertically with Utilt. Anything besides swords, basically. It's a good deal less laggy then Usmash so if you don't want to get faked out by a multijumper or something it'd be the better option.

Think I found something big though. Had a little lab time with a friend and just for funsies I tried comboing Jab 1 into Usmash like how Marth gets Jab > Fsmash. Wasn't true against anybody I tried it on but it's close enough to where I think it's a frame trap at kill percents. If they double jump, Usmash will certainly catch them. If they airdodge or even just wait there Fsmash catches them. Didn't have enough time to see if any attacks would break out of it though. The only prerequisite for landing a Usmash sanely is that you do a Jab out of a walk with the tilt stick.

 

[ReRaze]

On the topic of Pit vs Cloud I think with really good precision we can outspace him in neutral (aside from fair but its better to just respect and punish that move on whiff anyway)
Ik uair definitely beats his dair but some things ive pulled off once or twice are
-Pivot Grab beating his Nair from the front
-Dair beating his Uair
Not really sure, could have been a flub on my opponents end or attacking too slow. Would anyone like to double check? These are arguably two of his best neutral tools and beaing able to counter them would probably help cement that MU in our favour.

Also how do we punish his Nair OoS does jab/ftilt work?

 

[LancerStaff]

Cloud's Uair as an approach isn't hard to beat outright. I think Pit's grab extends upwards weirdly (just waitin' on the hitbox visualization) and as a result Cloud may have a hard time landing with an aerial or tomahawking.

The hitbox on Cloud's Nair is deceively small. Challenging with a pivot grab is weird but I don't think it'd be impossible.

 

[ReRaze]

LancerStaff can I just say that ftilt>electroshock setup you found is brilliant, hasn't failed me yet, even kills at really low percents with rage on light characters like Pika.

 

[Nat 1]

I've found if you space Up-air a little past Cloud it will actually beat his Dair which actually put a cloud player on tilt once he knew his best landing option wasn't safe anymore.

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff can I just say that ftilt>electroshock setup you found is brilliant, hasn't failed me yet, even kills at really low percents with rage on light characters like Pika.

Wow, really? ...Hm, Pika's a character I couldn't get it to work on in training. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Gravity I jumped around the list a little bit, picking out the more viable characters to test against. Pika wouldn't work but Diddy, the next character I tried, did. You think it's consistent against Pikachu in a real match?

 

[ReRaze]

Wow, really? ...Hm, Pika's a character I couldn't get it to work on in training. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Gravity I jumped around the list a little bit, picking out the more viable characters to test against. Pika wouldn't work but Diddy, the next character I tried, did. You think it's consistent against Pikachu in a real match?

With Pika he has to miss the tech, it covers all options from there.
On that topic, what makes it not work on Pika? when someone with higher gravity like Roy and Diddy can't get away even by teching?

 

[LancerStaff]

With Pika he has to miss the tech, it covers all options from there.
On that topic, what makes it not work on Pika? when someone with higher gravity like Roy and Diddy can't get away even by teching?

Higher gravity means you go from rising to falling faster and taking more upwards hitstun (to counteract most of the living longer and getting combo'd longer vertically). We're concerned with the former here, because if they fall down to the ground fast enough they can't jump away or otherwise cancel tumble. If Pika or anybody really decides to fall down and tech it's still probably possible to catch them, though.

 

[SuperLevel]

I just thought I would post some of my findings with pit . I am not sure if any of this has been said in the past 23 pages, but yeah!

Lately i've been trying to find ways to cover some missed attacks (such as a missed up throw to up air). I noticed that if I miss the up air part, I can fast fall to the ground and quickly do a down smash. Of course, I have to be facing the right way to get the down smash quickly (facing towards my opponent) but that generally happens when I chase them while we are both falling.

Other than that, I have been using Pit's generally decent running speed to get out of bad "whiffed" attack situations.

Does anyone else have any other opinions or ideas on this?

Edit: Also! I found this yesterday. If you forward air an opponent onto a adjacent platform, you can directly side b them if they fall onto the platform. Maybe it's obvious, but it seems to cover a lot of what they can do (miss tech, tech backwards, maybe in place?).

 

[ReRaze]

So to anyone who uses foostool resets and has a little trouble with it, I just figured out something. dunno if it's known or not but you can followup after a footstool more easily if you cancel your footstool jump with pit's midair jump. i.e After Dair > Footstool mash jump until you see Pit flap his wings once (showing you've cancelled your footstool jump with a single midair jump), and since pit's midair jump has much less vertical distance than a footstool and much less cooldown you can fast fall quicker than usual. This let's you footstool jab reset even fast fallers such as shiek, characters I couldn't previously footstool reset.

edit: This only works if you footstool your opponent without using your second jump to get there because only Pit's second jump has cancelling properties. But that's fine because you can just hit with dair's weak sourspot instead of the strong sourspot at higher percents so that you don't have to use your second jump to reach the opponent.

I noticed that if I miss the up air part, I can fast fall to the ground and quickly do a down smash. Of course, I have to be facing the right way to get the down smash quickly (facing towards my opponent) but that generally happens when I chase them while we are both falling.

Other than that, I have been using Pit's generally decent running speed to get out of bad "whiffed" attack situations.
Does anyone else have any other opinions or ideas on this?

Edit: Also! I found this yesterday. If you forward air an opponent onto a adjacent platform, you can directly side b them if they fall onto the platform. Maybe it's obvious, but it seems to cover a lot of what they can do (miss tech, tech backwards, maybe in place?).

Haha yeah that's known person who most notably uses it is probably paseriman, a Japanese Pit. I see him do it alot. (also pretty sure you meant dthrow>uair, not uthrow>uair?)

I reckon rolling is a good option for Pit, he has one of the better rolls in the game, why not abuse it a little. If you are confident in your spacing side b has a frame 1 pull back (faster than roll) that can possibky let you avoid a punish and punish in return.

Hey that's a pretty good option, never thought of that.

 

[GP2]

Hey guys so I played a pit ditto recently and got wrecked pretty hard. This guy beat me off of mostly mind games but something he did which I have never seen before is when he would recover, there would be times where he would use nair to get back on the stage from the ledge but he would get it to auto cancel and be able to do a jab beating a grab that I would throw out thinking that there would be enough time to punish. I have tried to replicate the auto cancel nair from the ledge in training mode but I can't seem to do it. Does anyone have any tips? In case anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, I found a video of Nairo doing the same thing. It happens at 1:45. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0FCWEhf1_0

 

[ReRaze]

Hey guys so I played a pit ditto recently and got wrecked pretty hard. This guy beat me off of mostly mind games but something he did which I have never seen before is when he would recover, there would be times where he would use nair to get back on the stage from the ledge but he would get it to auto cancel and be able to do a jab beating a grab that I would throw out thinking that there would be enough time to punish. I have tried to replicate the auto cancel nair from the ledge in training mode but I can't seem to do it. Does anyone have any tips? In case anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, I found a video of Nairo doing the same thing. It happens at 1:45. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0FCWEhf1_0

TL:DR PRACTICE IT/KEEP TRYING

There aren't really any tips I can give because it really just comes down to doing it quickly. You have to let go of the ledge and jump and nair immediately. If you aren't getting the auto cancel you are either jumping too late or nairing too late. Another point may be don't pull back too far away from the ledge before jumping, be as subtle yet quick as possible when pushing and then or vice versa. Try practice it at 1/2 speed in training mode.

Also don't rely on this too much, It's not safe if you nair right into their shield, and Nair has very little 'priority', alot of moves can beat it (e.g Fsmash). But it works great as a mixup option.

 

[LancerStaff]

Technically Nair is safe on shield, but only if you're out of grab range or other fast OoS options. Most characters with tethers/bad grabs absolutely can't punish Nair on shield, actually. ZSS sadly I don't think is one because Boost Kick OoS is a thing.

 

[krazySyko]

Technically Nair is safe on shield, but only if you're out of grab range or other fast OoS options. Most characters with tethers/bad grabs absolutely can't punish Nair on shield, actually. ZSS sadly I don't think is one because Boost Kick OoS is a thing.

Wouldn't ZSS' jab punish it consistently too since it comes out on frame 1? Unless it's possible to space so it doesn't reach or something.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wouldn't ZSS' jab punish it consistently too since it comes out on frame 1? Unless it's possible to space so it doesn't reach or something.

I thought shield drop was like ten frames or something... That's why having good OoS options is important. Though admittedly I hadn't thought of that at the time.

 

[Y2Kay]

Looks like Earth dropped pit for Corrin......


Dang.

 

[LancerStaff]

Looks like Earth dropped pit for Corrin......


Dang.

Did he really say so?

 

[Y2Kay]

Did he really say so?

It's what its looking like. he's played as much pit as abadango has played MK. Maybe he'll come back, but he's been playing all Corrin for a while now, he didnt even go Pit once last tourney

 

[LancerStaff]

It's what its looking like. he's played as much pit as abadango has played MK. Maybe he'll come back, but he's been playing all Corrin for a while now, he didnt even go Pit once last tourney

See, I honestly doubt he's going to drop Pit for a character who's like two spots higher if at all. If he was interested in winning more he'd of picked up Sheik (last patch at least) or Cloud or something. I think he's just training up a secondary.

Edit: Wouldn't you know it, he was grinding out the DP/Bayo MU the other day. https://www.twitch.tv/earth_tyt/v/57951445 You're just being a worrywart, hehe.

 

[krazySyko]

See, I honestly doubt he's going to drop Pit for a character who's like two spots higher if at all. If he was interested in winning more he'd of picked up Sheik (last patch at least) or Cloud or something. I think he's just training up a secondary.

Edit: Wouldn't you know it, he was grinding out the DP/Bayo MU the other day. https://www.twitch.tv/earth_tyt/v/57951445 You're just being a worrywart, hehe.

I'm still a little worried about it, not that he's dropping Pit entirely but he might be moving towards maining Corrin. Might not even be a thing of trying to pick up a better character, could just be he really likes the character more than Pit (in google's auto-translate of his twitter, there were a lot of mentions of Kamui-chan at one point).

EDIT: In the one match of Earth I found on the stream for Karisuma last night he did use Pit against fuwa's Marth (and fuwa is apparently his fiance). He didn't place top 8 or anything though and I have no idea on his usage for the rest of his matches. https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming/v/58336038 around 53 minutes or so if anyone's interested.

 

[CHOMPY]

What do you guys think of shield dropping to bair on stages like battlefield, and smashville?