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Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

Orchestrafanboy19

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Seems to be a surge whenever we get a good combo video, hehe.
Yeah, I feel bad saying this, but it's pretty obvious they're new. Hopefully some of them stick with it, we need more Pit recognition.
 

alexthepony

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if i want to do down throw uair at low percents should i do sh forward uair or dash forward, sh uair.
Also, do you look at their di when you do dthrow usmash or do it quickly? I assume you also look at their di when you do stuff like dthrow fair or uair, right? last question-does dthrow dair work if they di up and away and mash airdodge?
 

Treveen

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We need a name for the Nair>fast fall>upsmash thing. Also i think if we learn how to do it consistently we could really push the character
 

MKchouy

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I wonder if possibly RAR nair is easier to confirm? Kind of like M2's? I keep saying i'm gonna lab this then I never do lol.
 

SuperLevel

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It seems like falling up air to up smash (on a ground character) works. Idk if it is a true combo, and it is fairly hard to pull off (because up air sends them random places :p), but it could be a good mix up :). And even if the up air sends them in a weird way, it may be hard(ish) to punish.
 

ReRaze

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It seems like falling up air to up smash (on a ground character) works. Idk if it is a true combo, and it is fairly hard to pull off (because up air sends them random places :p), but it could be a good mix up :). And even if the up air sends them in a weird way, it may be hard(ish) to punish.
Falling uair to usmash does true combo but it's pretty unsafe unfortunately :p
As for the wierd angles its pretty much Uair has four hitboxes.
-The one on the left flings people to the right
-The one on the right flings people to the left
-The top hitbox is what pulls people in
-The bottom hitbox is what launches people up (if you land with it).

image.png
 

Tito Maas

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Falling uair to usmash does true combo but it's pretty unsafe unfortunately :p
As for the wierd angles its pretty much Uair has four hitboxes.
-The one on the left flings people to the right
-The one on the right flings people to the left
-The top hitbox is what pulls people in
-The bottom hitbox is what launches people up (if you land with it).

View attachment 112467
Where are the other Pit hit box visualizations?

Edit : found them
 
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ReRaze

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Just two things about the electroshock. I had something wierd happen the other day where the electroshock semi spiked at a 200 degree angle on a flat stage...any ideas?
Also the hitbox for the side b comes out on frame 2? right? Does that mean we can 2 frame people on the ledge with it?
 

Koiba

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Just two things about the electroshock. I had something wierd happen the other day where the electroshock semi spiked at a 200 degree angle on a flat stage...any ideas?
Maybe your opponent had literal god DI :^)

But seriously, so it looked like this? Horrible drawing ikik

upload_2016-7-25_20-42-53.png
 

ReRaze

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Maybe your opponent had literal god DI :^)

But seriously, so it looked like this? Horrible drawing ikik

View attachment 113011
Haha I doubt even the worst of DI could make it launch like that, besides it was a cpu.

It actually didn't launch offstage but I hit lucina and she got sent horizontally downwards and groundbounced then slid really fast iirc, it looked so wierd.

What are you on about that pic is beautiful....
 

LancerStaff

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I'm assuming there definitely wasn't any other factors at play... Best thing I can think of is some random TAS level SDI into the stage. I seriously doubt we can trigger it anyhow.

Actually I've been thinking about catching two frames with the Arms for quite a while but never bothered to test it. Still haven't had much of an opportunity to do so... Never brought it up because I'd rather do then say.

Anyway, even if it can't just directly 2-frame then you could just muscle through their hitboxes and nail 'em like that. Also you can just have 17 frames of potential hitbox by Side B-ing into the ledge while holding down and ledge snap yourself when the detector ends by letting go of the control stick. Cool, right?
 

GP2

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I was watching some of Earth's videos and saw this one of him vs Tweek and he got a nice f-tilt off a neutral get up read which finished the stock.

https://youtu.be/Ciz3IZfhAcc?t=1m10s

Now Tweek did not shield in this instance so it's not guaranteed but how safe is this option if the opponent shields? My f-tilts seem to always get punished because my opponent attacks right away and there's nothing I can do because f-tilt honestly feels really slow but I might be spacing it wrong.
 

LancerStaff

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Ftilt... High range, low disjoint, good start-up (for the range), decent damage and killpower, good active frames, but very unsafe.

It's best used like DA to either beat somebody to the punch or a punish. Trust me, Earth wasn't just throwing it out. Either he was using the active frames to catch the vulnerability on the getup or he knew Tweek wasn't going to shield in that situation.
 

ReRaze

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Earth was definitely going for normal getup punish with ftilt, he goes for it alot, I use it too, it's not particularly hard to time especially past 100%

On another note LancerStaff LancerStaff Not sure if this was found before but I found a way to consistently get aerial side b to consistently cancel into the ground on hit. Its just a distance thing, land it at max range. The timing is really lenient. Oh and this is from an instant side b from jump though I'm not really sure how useful it will be.
 

LancerStaff

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Found that ages ago, heh. Sadly it doesn't work on shield and the SA will of ran out by then but it's interesting at least.

Swore I've done actual combos with it, accidentally of course, but when I found the consistent way to get the hitlag cancel I couldn't get any combos off. Now that I think about it, I know that vectoring effects hitlag and can create or kill combos where only the attack-ee takes hitlag, such as hitlag cancels like this or combos from projectiles.
 

ReRaze

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Oh yeah and Dair can hit through platforms with both the spike and sourspot, the sourspot allows for some really good combos.
Might be a nice way to pressure people underneath your platform without falling through.
 

LancerStaff

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I've tried it but it's kinda awkward considering the total start-up (even with runoff > dj) and the eh active frames. Though, like when going deep with the move, it'd be easier if you face away from the edge because the first hitbox lasts 3 frames instead of two on top of the more lenient hitbox placement. The strongest upwards hitbox could possibly launch people into the stage and pinball them further away if they miss the tech. Conveniently, runoff > dj should make you turnaround jump if you do it right.

Any other recent findings on discord? Still very out of the loop, I'm afraid...
 

ReRaze

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I've tried it but it's kinda awkward considering the total start-up (even with runoff > dj) and the eh active frames. Though, like when going deep with the move, it'd be easier if you face away from the edge because the first hitbox lasts 3 frames instead of two on top of the more lenient hitbox placement. The strongest upwards hitbox could possibly launch people into the stage and pinball them further away if they miss the tech. Conveniently, runoff > dj should make you turnaround jump if you do it right.

Any other recent findings on discord? Still very out of the loop, I'm afraid...
Are you referring to my previous post? cuz I was talking about dairing through the battlefield platforms, unless I misunderstood, you're talking about the ledge?

Recent discord findings hmmm there's arrows into aerials or usmash which true combo at kill percent and ummm landing the reverse hitbox of side b consistently even on shield (for dark pit)
 

LancerStaff

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Are you referring to my previous post? cuz I was talking about dairing through the battlefield platforms, unless I misunderstood, you're talking about the ledge?

Recent discord findings hmmm there's arrows into aerials or usmash which true combo at kill percent and ummm landing the reverse hitbox of side b consistently even on shield (for dark pit)
Oooh, platforms. I'm tired, lol.

Arrow combos sound cool. How's it work with Usmash? A delayed shot from a fullhop? Somebody falling onto an arrow aimed up?

The reverse hit on Electroshock (and technically Upperdash not that it really matters) happens if the opponent ends up too close IIRC. So if they fall in on it, run in pretty fast, or are just close when the activation hitbox appears then it hits with the reverse hitbox. Discord's a little behind... Unless you guys have found something new there.
 

ReRaze

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Oooh, platforms. I'm tired, lol.

Arrow combos sound cool. How's it work with Usmash? A delayed shot from a fullhop? Somebody falling onto an arrow aimed up?

The reverse hit on Electroshock (and technically Upperdash not that it really matters) happens if the opponent ends up too close IIRC. So if they fall in on it, run in pretty fast, or are just close when the activation hitbox appears then it hits with the reverse hitbox. Discord's a little behind... Unless you guys have found something new there.
Oh just shoot an arrow upwards from under a platform lol.

As for the reverse hit of Electroshock, we know how it works lol, basically to get it consistently run up to them and side b in the other direction works on hit and on shield, it kills a little earlier due to lower launch angle? or maybe thats just me. But my fsvourite thing about it is that it pushes the opponent back while you slide forward so they get a way weaker punish.
 

Mr. ShinyUmbreon

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Do the Pits get any use out of this?

I know you can get grounded footstool to D-air into a follow-up, but would this be optimal in comparison to just grabbing or doing something else out of shield?

Dair to follow-ups only works at mid to high percents. And by that point, the only grab combo you'll be able to pull off is d-throw to up-air (unless you're playing against a fast faller or heavyweight, but even then, rage and DI are a thing) which would do 16% (assuming you land all hits of upair) while d-air to follow-ups do around 17-22. (again, assuming you land all hits of each follow-up)

Dair to nair does 18%

Dair to Fair does 17%

Dair to Dair/Dair to upair does 20%

and Dair to sweet Bair does 22% and dair to sour bair does 18%

these are all true combos

what do you guys think?

EDIT: another thing to note is that when they compared frame data at the part with Mega Man and Shiek, since Pit has a frame 5 jump-squat and not frame 4 like MM, he would have 9 frames (theoretically) or 11 (realistically) which still can punish in the situation they showed, just that it would be harder to punish by 1 frame
 
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GP2

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I was labbing some stuff in training mode today and something interesting happened. I dash-grabbed Cloud near the ledge and it initiated one of those special states where Cloud's body goes from touching the ground to being in the air since the dash grab's momentum carried Cloud off the stage forcing a grab release pushing both me and Cloud off stage. This actually happens to me a lot when I'm playing so when I saw the animation I was ready for both of us to be off stage. I immediately followed up with a dair spike and according to the combo meter in training mode it was true combo(off the two pummels that I slipped in before the grab release). Might be something to look into. I'm working on replicating it so I can post a video here to show it to you guys.
 

GP2

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Sorry to say but the combo counter goes kerblewy whenever grab release stuff is involved. Most likely Cloud can act around the same time you can.
Oh okay gotcha. It's still a good mix up though if your opponent isn't prepared for it.
 

Koiba

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I was labbing some stuff in training mode today and something interesting happened. I dash-grabbed Cloud near the ledge and it initiated one of those special states where Cloud's body goes from touching the ground to being in the air since the dash grab's momentum carried Cloud off the stage forcing a grab release pushing both me and Cloud off stage. This actually happens to me a lot when I'm playing so when I saw the animation I was ready for both of us to be off stage. I immediately followed up with a dair spike and according to the combo meter in training mode it was true combo(off the two pummels that I slipped in before the grab release). Might be something to look into. I'm working on replicating it so I can post a video here to show it to you guys.
Ooooh I remember doing that against a Falcon before. It even spiked

I guess he didn't really expect it, which is why I feel like is one reason why he died.

I can't show any footage of it rn because I don't have my gamepad, but if anyone wants to see it I'll try and find it
 

GP2

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Is ledge trump bair a thing with pit? I've been trying to lab it but it seems to be too slow.
 

ReRaze

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Is ledge trump bair a thing with pit? I've been trying to lab it but it seems to be too slow.
It's a thing, you're probably ledge trumping them too late, you need to trump them as soon as they grab the ledge or you most likely won't be able to followup in time.
 
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Tito Maas

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Earth was definitely going for normal getup punish with ftilt, he goes for it alot, I use it too, it's not particularly hard to time especially past 100%

On another note LancerStaff LancerStaff Not sure if this was found before but I found a way to consistently get aerial side b to consistently cancel into the ground on hit. Its just a distance thing, land it at max range. The timing is really lenient. Oh and this is from an instant side b from jump though I'm not really sure how useful it will be.
Can you make a video of this?

Oh yeah and Dair can hit through platforms with both the spike and sourspot, the sourspot allows for some really good combos.
Might be a nice way to pressure people underneath your platform without falling through.
And this? How are you landing a DAir through the platform without landing lag? Are you jumping upwards from below the platform?
 

LancerStaff

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ReRaze ReRaze

You hear about step dashing from my smash corner? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvRsb_2yE5Y&feature=youtu.be

Well, it's another one of those slidey "wavedash 2.0 guyz" things, though it looks decently useful. If Pit doesn't get garbage distance from it (edit: Pit's is really good according to the topic on the academy subforum, tied for 3rd/4th best I think) then it'll probably be pretty useful since Pit has good sliding moves, Jab and grab.

Can't test tonight since I gotta get up early and I really should be sleeping now but that's besides the point so could you lab it out? Especially Jab > Usmash. Whole nine yards if you can... Rage and both Jab hitboxes namely. DI I can probably do if it looks promising.

Meanwhile Robin's step dash is either impossible or completely useless, lol. Guy can't catch a break.
 
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Tito Maas

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Anyone every try Jab 1 to SideB? It probably requires an air dodge, but does anyone have any experience?

Another thing that could be incredibly useful is the B-reverse UpB. I've done it before, but obviously the timing is strict, and a whiff could mean instant death. Can someone test to get a better idea of how to B-reverse your UpB?
 
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LancerStaff

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Jab 1 to Electroshock isn't really anything special... Might as well charge Fsmash for how much longer it takes to pull off. Elec only kills 10% sooner without charge.

Not much of a reason to B-reverse Uspecial when you can either turn around with a jump or use a slight angle in the desired direction.
 

Tito Maas

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Jab 1 to Electroshock isn't really anything special... Might as well charge Fsmash for how much longer it takes to pull off. Elec only kills 10% sooner without charge.

Not much of a reason to B-reverse Uspecial when you can either turn around with a jump or use a slight angle in the desired direction.
In high level play, there's a lot of instances where speed is important. Most of the time though, its better to just turn around but there are indeed instances where UpB straight up is the best option at a specific moment in time, especially when Pit is pretty defenseless returning to the ledge.

At least I've been in situations where B-reversing UpB could have been very helpful. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to test it when I have time
 

Orchestrafanboy19

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How does everyone feel about Pit's/Dark Pit's placement in Zero's tier list?
 

InfinitySoul

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Jab 1 to Electroshock isn't really anything special... Might as well charge Fsmash for how much longer it takes to pull off. Elec only kills 10% sooner without charge.

Not much of a reason to B-reverse Uspecial when you can either turn around with a jump or use a slight angle in the desired direction.
Does b reverse upB consummes frames ?
Because it doesn' to my knowledge.

I have no issue with Zero's ranking. Nor do I particularly care.
 

GP2

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How does everyone feel about Pit's/Dark Pit's placement in Zero's tier list?
I think it's the usual placement for Pit. None of the notable Pit players use the footstool tech though(Reraze is getting there) so until then he will most likely stay just under the cusp of high tier.
 
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