Twin Christmas Parties 3+4 Mafia {The Matryoshka Scandal.} ~ Over! Who had the merriest Christmas? Who got lumps of coal?

[#HBC | Joker]

This game has all kinds of crazy goddamn rules. There was a guy on the playerlist who wasn't even a real person. Couldn't his revival have just been some kind of timed event?

 

[#HBC | J]

Uhm, no it couldn't have been. PBJ, I have the right of mind to ask if you are trolling or not.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I've just never seen or heard of a flipped player getting revived. Reviver roles usually just work similar to a doc, where the target dies and is removed from NA resolution, and is then revived before the start of the next day. No flip.

Just kinda makes me think town is OP if they can bring a flipped player back into the game, + has 3 townies who are immune to NAs including poison.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

love that Kantrip is back, mostly because I just like Kantrip

Not sure I want to auto-clear J on grounds of being able to revive someone, but then again his is a slot i'm probably worrying about unnecessarily anyways. Common sense dictates that J is clear and saying otherwise smacks of idiocy if nothing else.

Speaking of which, there seems to be a lot of strong opinions floating around, and i'm not really sure why people are at one another's throats, it seems kinda unnecessary. I mean, OS trying to pull even more setup speculation as to the number of kills in order to put doubt on Sword's claim is hella grimy, I dislike it heartilly. But i'm honestly not in the mood to break it down any further than that. It's just gross and i can't be bothered to dissect it any further.

anyhow

pretty sure I'm next in line to claim, so:

I'm Mitsuru Gear Solid (so awesome, google for pix)

aka Mitsuru Kirijo, Town Reflective Watcher

Each night, if I'm targeted by anyone I will learn which players targeted me (but not what actions they performed), but despite being prime target for investigation, i've not received any results :/

since we're riding the claim train, let's get it moving. next stop circus I believe.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

well apparently I got claim ninja'd o_0

someone smack PJB for me please, as I said, wtf at questioning J

 

[#HBC | J]

I've just never seen or heard of a flipped player getting revived. Reviver roles usually just work similar to a doc, where the target dies and is removed from NA resolution, and is then revived before the start of the next day. No flip.

Just kinda makes me think town is OP if they can bring a flipped player back into the game, + has 3 townies who are immune to NAs including poison.

Let me bring you a hypothetical if we are to believe Bardull's role to be true. If Bardull had died Day or Night 1, all our protectives would have failed. That means no one is safe from anything and can die. Reviver would be a buffer to this. However, this is just role speculation and it's only a one time deal.

 

[#HBC | J]

well apparently I got claim ninja'd o_0

someone smack PJB for me please, as I said, wtf at questioning J

 

[Overswarm]

That sound swingy as hell, even to me.

 

[#HBC | J]

That sound swingy as hell, even to me.

Same could be said to PBJ's role if we choose to believe it as well.

However, we had RR/Raziek as possible back-ups if that were to have happened D1/N1, so there was that as well. It does work out in the end.

 

[Kantrip]

J, this is painful. Kantrip was probably one of the worst roles you could have picked to revive. The fact that he died N1 means that he never got to use his ability (maybe N1 was successful; we don't know yet), and means that he's one of the dead players that has the most catching up to do, since he probably stopped following this game pretty much right when he died.

If you were looking to bring back a useful role, why not the poison doctor since we're still clearly dealing with a poisoner in this game? If you wanted a player that could actually contribute and scumhunt intelligently, why didn't you pick a more recently deceased player? Like July? Someone who would still have their head in the game?

I honestly don't believe you revived Kantrip because you thought we would benefit from his return (no offense, Kantrip). Yeah, we've got one more townie back, but we're probably still in mylo so we're not really any safer than we were before you revived him. In addition, you didn't revive a player that could actually help to buy us time. It seems like you just wanted to revive a player because doing so would make you look good, and then specifically chose to bring back Kantrip because he would be of the least actual use.

I really, really want your claim.

This, and no offense taken.

I completely think I was the absolute worst choice to bring back from the dead for all the reasons you stated, and J only did it to look pro-town without actually having pro-town intentions behind it. I'm not really up to date but J choosing me makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[Kantrip]

From reading recent events, I like Swords, Kary, and Circus.

I dislike J and Bardull.

No one else is giving me feels.

But I need to do a real read. I may have been a terrible Revive choice, but I plan to make the most of it.

 

[#HBC | J]

@Kanty:

I can't really explain, Circus, until I full-claim which will happen in due time. However, why is picking Kantrip my worst choice in Reviving? That's far from the truth.

I could have revived anyone. If I was scum, why not revive BRB? Or Le B? Hell, Soup was the worst town role to revive in my opinion due to if we had any more guns/killing going on, it would be game over for town. If Soup was even shot during the night and he shot incorrectly due to his vengence role, game would be over as well.

You are trying to throw FUD on my claim, before I have even claimed. I'm getting to the rest of your post though now.

Did you even read this post?

 

[BarDulL]

From reading recent events, I like Swords, Kary, and Circus.

I dislike J and Bardull.

No one else is giving me feels.

But I need to do a real read. I may have been a terrible Revive choice, but I plan to make the most of it.

Sorry but yes please read through the thread, it's pretty important at this point. Also, I see J's ability as more town sided than scum sided solely on the premise that as scum it would have made a lot more sense for him to save his ability for later in the event a scummate died for instance. He could use it to reach a majority against Town even if we lynched scum correctly toDay which would effectively mean that we have no chance of winning unless we were to lynch hypothetical Jscum.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

1. Look at his stances from Circus downwards. Pay attention to his wording. It's hard to explain what I don't like about it, but it just feels really disingenuous to me. I'll try my best to dissect just what it is about these posts that bother me.

1. He has Kary as a "tentative" town read and yet is comfortable giving the "town label." Shows a disingenuous thought process, as if he didn't really know what to think of Kary.

2. States the he "hopes Circus will step it." This is something that just strikes me as fake. Like a nice little sentence that he added at the end of his post just to wrap up his thoughts on Circus.

3. His reads are based on generic things. "Sworddancer is inactive, but he contributory when he does post." "Circus just pops in every once in awhile . . . but he doesn't come off as super townie."

4. He seems a bit too conservative in his word choice and stances. "Ran could just be derpy town, BUT . . . " "Bardull's play seems townie, BUT I got burned last time." "I'm catious," "I'm hesitant," etc..



2. This post. Basically just thoughtlessly joining in on the RR hate. Bolded paragraph is generic and not true, considering that there was only two days left until deadline. He pretty much just took what I said earlier ("You trying to cut the Day short RR") and capy pasted it without much thought.

Last line looks really fake. What was PJB expecting RR to do in that time period that would significantly change things?




3. This post. Second line is meh/obvious, plus he doesn't even really commit to suspicion of JTB. Last line is terrible. "I'm looking at J's interactions with Kary?" What interactions? You mean the ONE POST that J made towards Kary? Again it feels like you're just copy pasting me here.

Also, I don't get the impression that you're really "looking" at anything at all. I mean, you're looking at what? ONE person's claim and TWO posts made between J and Kary. What exactly are you looking at anyways? Feels like false contribution to me. Which is probably the one thing I don't like about your slot, false contribution. I do not get the impression that PJB is legit scumhunting this game at all.

4. PoE. I mean honestly, who else could be scum at this point? We have 10 people left and at least 4 scum. There's not too much room left for the uncertainties to be town.

Intellectual honesty: The one thing I do like about PJB is his reactions to the pressure on him. His defense of himself was very logical and he was aggressive in just a way that a usually don't expect out of newbie scum.

@Bardull, Kary: You both have town reads on PJB. Can you go into them more?

@Kary: Can you please defend yourself against Bardull's points made against your 1155?

Curious what you were trying to accomplish here? You have been constantly giving me the FOS, without ever making a real push on me. Now you make this half-***** excuse for a case, that amounts almost entirely to "he gives me icky feelings". Then you immediately drop it, following up with a comment on how Townie I look from my reactions.

I'm confused, am I scum or not? What are you doing?

 

[BarDulL]

PJB who is scum?

 

[Kantrip]

Yeah I did.

You didn't revive any of those obviously anti-town choices because then you couldn't claim them as your role. As scum you would want to pick a choice that can be construed as a townie choice if you plan to claim Reviver.

Set-up speculation with a set-up including enablers, it does make sense with a reviver to bring an enabler back so as not to screw over a cluster of town roles. I don't want to rely on set-up speculation...

...but I also don't want to rely on what I am right now.

I'll retake this all into consideration when I get to it from a full read, but for now I've got nothing.

Should I full-claim last?

 

[#HBC | J]

Yes, full-claim after I do.

 

[BarDulL]

Sorry but yes please read through the thread, it's pretty important at this point. Also, I see J's ability as more town sided than scum sided solely on the premise that as scum it would have made a lot more sense for him to save his ability for later in the event a scummate died for instance. He could use it to reach a majority against Town even if we lynched scum correctly toDay which would effectively mean that we have no chance of winning unless we were to lynch hypothetical Jscum.

I want to make a special note here that the only way for J to revive someone during this phase is to personally send Nabe the command to revive someone after the day has already started. I honestly do not see this as a scum sided role and I'm impressed that people are considering it scumsided. IMHO July was a much better choice to revive but I think J just wanted to potentially get a clean guilty from Kantrip which didn't go as planned. Even if J didn't make the best decision that does not make him scum.

 

[#HBC | J]

Omg, I ****ing love Bardull.

 

[BarDulL]

 

[Overswarm]

To be clear Bardull, you're saying J's action is townie so we should give him a free pass to lylo?

Or do you actually leave room to consider he's scum given his actions?

Because if you're asking "Would scum J do this?" and follow it by "No, therefore he must be town" you just described exactly why scum J would do that thing.

 

[Kantrip]

And what's your opinion Overswarm?

It sounds like you're just sprinkling seeds of doubt over everyone's crops right now without actually making a judgement call for yourself.

 

[BarDulL]

I'm going to outline the reasons why J pretty much has to be Town:

1. J revived someone who could have potentially had a guilty on hypothetical Jscum or the rest of the scum team.
2. J could have saved his ability use for toMorrow in the event that scum was lynched toDay and subsequently reach a scum majority as a result assuming a townie dies from poison in the next couple phases.
3. J's intent is pretty obvious here even though I don't necessarily agree with the decision making process. This is a bit more of a WIFOMy point and not as strong as the others but I still feel it's legit because it comes off as the genuine rationale that J had, i.e. J is a town read.
4. J's role has nothing to do with modifiers or anything of the sort because his role ability was not activated until the day was already progressing. It is very clear here that J sent his ability in during toDay primarily because if this was all a set up from the start, Nabe would have revived Kantrip at the beginning of the day phase. This is proof that J did not have to revive Kantrip as well as proof that he could have just as easily saved his ability use for later.
5. He FRIGGIN REVIVED SOMEONE! Why would Mafia have this kind of ability? OP much? Semi-weak point here, but still, mafia reviver, are you serious? I just don't see it as likely whatsoever in all honesty, especially if we're working with a hypothetical scum team of 4 mafia (which you even suggested we were!)

Like, with all of these points, I just don't understand how or WHY people are trying to see J's role as scummy.

 

[#HBC | J]

I know this isn't going to help my cause at all but I have to bring up this info if I am being fair if people are going to auto-clear me based on my reviver role.

In LoL Mafia, there was a Mafia Reviver variant which was the first I had ever seen of an anti-town version of it. Here:

Yorick the Gravedigger, Mafia Reviver!

Oh, so you are one of those people. The tryhard that picks the most annoying top lane matchup for anyone. Well, you sure angered a lot of summoners (plznerf), so it's time to show that you are not just some cheap character! You may talk to your partners Lovably Adorable Kanine (Fizz) and RainbowFingers (Skarner) here.

Abilities:

Kill: Each night, you or your partners may target one player to kill by sending me the command Kill: (player name).

Omen of Death: You've been granted the power to bring someone back to life for a short period of time! Once this game, you may send me the command Omen of Death: (deadplayername) and they will be revived for the next day phase only. They will still be able to use any powers they have, be able to talk and vote, but will not be eligible for a lynch. They still will count towards the majority though (so if 7 people are alive and you revive one person, it will count as 8 people alive and take 5 to lynch). You may only use this ability once!

It's important to note that you will not be able to kill anyone on the night that you use this ability, so choose wisely.

Safeclaim: You know that Rumble is not in the game!

Alignment: You are Mafia aligned and win when all summoners have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Good luck!

It was Soup's role in LoL which is definitely different from what mine does but yeah.

 

[BarDulL]

Ok so since OS is suggesting that Jscum is a possibility here, I propose that he goes in-depth regarding what Jscum is trying to accomplish by reviving a player that could have potentially had a guilty on Jscum or his mates. What was J's rationale for doing it?

 

[Overswarm]

Yeah don't care. I'm not a play for toDay and I don't really feel the need to throw myself out there and let people dance around my words. If someone wants info from me, they can ask. These "seeds of doubt" are legitimate questions. J just gets a free pass for reviving someone in what could still be lylo by Bardull, it needs to be noted that that is stupid.

Personally I think it's ****ing simple. J revived a townie. There are other slots (see: JTB, Circus, Bardull, Kary) that still need a light shone on them. J could be a play later, but not today. Yes, J could be scum and this could be J's way of saying "I'm town look at me!", but it's not something we can "catch" him on. It's a judgement call that we have to make based off of his play and you don't make judgement calls this late in the game when there's a possibility of finding lies or inconsistencies.

You especially don't make a judgement call when success means you still go "well, what now?" the next Day phase.


NOW THAT SAID.


I wouldn't put it against J being a mafia recruiter who was able to revive Kantrip as a mafia goon. No abilities, just straight up mafia goon. In a game where most of us are supposed to switch alignments and/or survive NKills (hence the multiple protectives, ascetic, etc.), this isn't as broken as it sounds. JTB said that someone's alignment can still change and lo and behold J revives Kantrip and Bardull comes out and says "Hey this is totally legit! No way J is scum!"

Given that it is lylo this close play is acceptable from a scum perspective and I could totally see this occurring.

Given how this game has gone I don't discount it as a possibility, especially since mafia reviver has been shown on smashboards before (LoL I think?).

 

[Kantrip]

Is OS clear from mechanics somewhere as well, or is there some other reason he's not a possible play toDay?

Bardull, what is your read on Joker knowing his role and its similarity to yours? Joker, same question about Bardull.

J, I hate to keep on your about your choice of reviving me, but if you did it in the Day (which it seems you did, as Bardull has deduced and you haven't denied), why didn't you discuss possibilities with the town before sending in the action?

OS: I haven't looked at the numbers, but wasn't it LyLo before J brought me back? If J brought me back and my alignment was changed to mafia, would the game not be over? Also if lies and inconsistencies are better than judgement calls, do you have any clear-cut lies or inconsistencies right now?

 

[Overswarm]

Oy. Assuming J is scum:

I'm going to outline the reasons why J pretty much has to be Town:

1. J revived someone who could have potentially had a guilty on hypothetical Jscum or the rest of the scum team.

Occam's razor states: No, he couldn't. J wouldn't bring out someone who could have a guilty. He either knows what the detective role does, revives the player without abilities, or has confirmation from the mod that his kill acts as a sort of interrupt / goes first.

Pretty simple.

2. J could have saved his ability use for toMorrow in the event that scum was lynched toDay and subsequently reach a scum majority as a result assuming a townie dies from poison in the next couple phases.

Occam's razor states: He either A) made a mistake, B) couldn't have done that, C) isn't mafia but actually indie, D) wanted to make sure that scum wasn't lynched today so they could just end it.

Again, simple. Just because something is the best course of action given your current knowledge doesn't mean that obviously hidden knowledge doesn't dictate a different course of action. He could have had a stipulation that said "you must use this ability before Day 6" for pete's sake.

3. J's intent is pretty obvious here even though I don't necessarily agree with the decision making process. This is a bit more of a WIFOMy point and not as strong as the others but I still feel it's legit because it comes off as the genuine rationale that J had, i.e. J is a town read.

Occam's razor says: Duh. If J is scum his action is going to attempt to be as townie as possible so, status quo here unless you assume J is incompetent.

4. J's role has nothing to do with modifiers or anything of the sort because his role ability was not activated until the day was already progressing. It is very clear here that J sent his ability in during toDay primarily because if this was all a set up from the start, Nabe would have revived Kantrip at the beginning of the day phase. This is proof that J did not have to revive Kantrip as well as proof that he could have just as easily saved his ability use for later.

Occam's razor: Nabe was waiting for Kantrip to confirm he could come back OR there are modifiers you simply haven't thought of. Don't pretend there couldn't be.

From a mod perspective, revival roles are stupid hard. Wouldn't be surprised if Nabe stipulated that "hey, uh... this role can only go through if they respond, otherwise you have to try a different player".

More importantly, WTF are you thinking there are no modifiers or rules to this ability? If I knew for a fact there weren't I would kill J right now simply for not reviving Kantrip at the END of a day phase after we had a claimed Switch-Doctor that could protect herself AND someone else and thus getting a free investigate.

Seriously, how would you not consider J scum as a possibility AT LEAST if J didn't do that.

5. He FRIGGIN REVIVED SOMEONE! Why would Mafia have this kind of ability? OP much? Semi-weak point here, but still, mafia reviver, are you serious? I just don't see it as likely whatsoever in all honesty, especially if we're working with a hypothetical scum team of 4 mafia (which you even suggested we were!)

Why would mafia have this kind of ability?

Occam's razor: Nabe sucks at balancing setups OR the role is balanced and you just don't understand it. Don't meta the mod, you'll get burned.

Here's a scenario, but let's replace J with Overswarm so you have your fear bias in play:

Overswarm and his scum team nearly make it into lylo, but they're worried about getting lynched! Overswarm decides to play his ace in the hole:

He will revive a townie!

His ability only lets him revive a townie but they're stripped of their abilities... or maybe his ability can ONLY revive the detective, but the detective will then come back as an insane cop, or some other dastardly thing.

Overswarm is now cleared from being a lynch suspect and has Kantrip, his detective buddy, obviously going to think he's town too! This means that the remaining scum AND a revived townie will all be on the same lynch (possibly), giving them a huge vote swing.

Like, with all of these points, I just don't understand how or WHY people are trying to see J's role as scummy.

Because we know the difference between a for-sure thing and a game that has had a ton of left turns.

Ok so since OS is suggesting that Jscum is a possibility here, I propose that he goes in-depth regarding what Jscum is trying to accomplish by reviving a player that could have potentially had a guilty on Jscum or his mates. What was J's rationale for doing it?

Easy. He knew there wasn't a potential for a guilty or decided to take the risk. Take your pick.

 

[Overswarm]

OS: I haven't looked at the numbers, but wasn't it LyLo before J brought me back? If J brought me back and my alignment was changed to mafia, would the game not be over? Also if lies and inconsistencies are better than judgement calls, do you have any clear-cut lies or inconsistencies right now?

Nothing but SDancer's 3 NKills and not gonna lynch on that.

 

[BarDulL]

OS, can you give us a reads list? I'm done talking theory craft and set up speculation WRT a mafia reviver recruiter when it obviously wasn't an optimal play for Jscum to make at all, not to mention that Jscum wasn't in a position of getting hardbodied when he was still on Sword's good side anyway. Getting a townie lynched, then reviving Kantrip the next day would have been the optimal play for sure. All I see right now is a legitimately unread Kantrip spouting that J is scum and agreeing that J is kinda suspicious for reviving Kantrip.

I'm literally fine with JTB/Circus/OS as plays for toDay btw, just as a side note. I think this is the correct route to go and I severely dislike OS/Circus trying to spread doubt on Sword/J/myself.

 

[Kantrip]

I'm not sure where the line is with regards to MOD communication rule breaking with times of events or private communication so I'll give it a wide girth here.

But J's ability brought me back right away and I'm pretty sure it was used in the Day.

 

[BarDulL]

Ok I guess I can claim.

I'm Chie Satonaka, Town Cop Enabler.

My role is essentially the same as Bardull's, but it enables all the investigatives instead of protectives. I also have the Ascetic modifier, and I'm scratching my head why the hell so many townies have that.

and I'm wondering why everyone thinks me questioning J is so unreasonable. Please explain how he is confirmed to have revived Kantrip, because I've read nothing indicating that he was the one to do it. All I see is him saying it.

This is interesting and I missed it. Please go into detail about how your role PM is worded.

I think this might actually be a fake claim btw.

 

[BarDulL]

I'm not sure where the line is with regards to MOD communication rule breaking with times of events or private communication so I'll give it a wide girth here.

But J's ability brought me back right away and I'm pretty sure it was used in the Day.

It was defo used after day start, otherwise Nabe would have included it in the opening post for toDay.

 

[BarDulL]

Otherwise it's kinda poor modding because Nabe's suggesting that the ability use does not occur at the very start of the day phase by posting it after people have posted already.

 

[Overswarm]

Okay I'm starting to see Bardull scum. I haven't been reading enough to be sure, but I'm starting to see it as a possibility. I need to re-read but I just don't have the time >_<

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Umm, I'm not sure exactly what you want from me in terms of my claim, Bardull. I can't copy/paste it for you.

As for your earlier inquiry about "who is scum", I'm leaning towards JTB. He's basically been the definition of coasting, and if we're going into lylo tomorrow, I don't want there to be a big ol question mark on his forehead. I'd rather have people with posts and stances that I can look at. That, coupled with his claim of simply having set up info on the mafia, I'm down with him going.

As for his scummates... obviously I can't pick them out based on direct interactions, since he has none. I wasn't really sold on Jtown until he himself posted that thing about mafia reviver from another game. That's some WIFOMy ****, and it makes me mad. My head says he could be posting that as a trick so we'll think "why would scum provide evidence that they might be scum." but that seems like I'm overreading it. I'm torn on J, but he's on my watchlist.

Circus is sticking out to me as well. As I stated before, Ryu's flip kind of informs me a bit on Circus. I kind of liked his Ryu case, but I would've liked it more if Ryu had flipped scum. He had a question mark on him, but Ryu flipping town looks bad for him, to me. I wish he was town, cuz I read Mass Effect and I really liked Town Circus, but in this game I am not seeing that guy. I'd be ok with him going today, as well. He might even be my prime suspect, at this point.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I guess I can just restate my role, to attempt to appease Bardull.

Me being alive Enables "Cop" roles to use their main ability.

If my use of the word "investigative" was throwing you off, I suppose I can understand. I'm trying not to break the rules, though, so I reworded it.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

OS, you have known me for about 2+ years now....you should know I'm a guy.

@Swords: Something bugged me in your last post.



Why did you not care about Bardull's pre-emptive full-claim, but had a problem with my soft-claim?

Because looking at his claim I agree with his reasoning that it probably won't matter that he claimed what he did early.

Yawn. You just made a post that said "This is bull****! Everything you said is accurate but completely and totally legitimate please believe me."

Ugh. You're trying to provoke me. This is a strawman of what I actually said, which was that you didn't take into context my situation or my Day 4 play. I did admit that my play hasn't been optimal, but I didn't just concede that everything you said was right and I hardly think that "unoptimal" play is a reason to be zooming in on anyone.

Like I said, you're currently a PoE townie to me and will remain so until everything else is accounted for. I can't judge you by your play because your play has been mostly non-existent. Even now you're dancing around instead of taking charge, despite being the golden boy of the moment. I'd really, really like a better read on you and I've been patiently waiting for you to step up to the plate and push someone's lynch but for some reason Bardull going after Circus is the deciding factor for today's momentum? Really? You've had nothing to push for all game?

My play is nonexistant? What about day 4? Where exactly am I "dancing around" taking charge? What makes you think that I'm "avoiding responsibility," and not just playing to whatever standard you have? What about my case on PJB? I just built it, but I haven't even gotten a change to try to convince people of it.

WTF is this? I thought Red Ryu protected me?

And where did the three kills come from?

Read my first post coming into toDay. A "miscellaneous" role visited you Night 1, and Nabe confirmed to me that naive roles would show up as miscellaneous. RR flipped "town overconfident child," which sounds very much so like a naive role to me.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "someone would counter-claim".

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Last thing I quoted OS saying was a mistake. I had nothing to comment on there.

Kary, can you please respond to my earlier questions? Why do you find PJB to be town? Why

Curious what you were trying to accomplish here? You have been constantly giving me the FOS, without ever making a real push on me. Now you make this half-***** excuse for a case, that amounts almost entirely to "he gives me icky feelings". Then you immediately drop it, following up with a comment on how Townie I look from my reactions.

I'm confused, am I scum or not? What are you doing?

I'll like to see why you actually believe my case to be "half-*****" rather than simply see you attack it as so. I find it delicious that all of the sudden you're implying a scumread on me (at least that's what I take you're doing, correct me if I'm wrong) as soon as I make a case against you and OS started attacking me, despite the fact that you've copy pasted my reasoning against others twice now.

Like our good pal OS, you're strawmaning. Actually read the case. I don't just say that you're giving me "icky feelings," but I explain where those feelings are coming from. Also my case isn't even all feeling, it's also PoE which is a pretty powerful tool at this point in the game.

PJB, why should I believe you to be town right now? You're reads our generic and somewhat cautious in nature. You had J as strong town the beginning of Day 3 but now he's scum to you? Because of a baseless accusation that he's trying to take town points after Kanty's revival?

I didn't immediately drop anything, I just haven't been given the time to develop it.

That comment about your "townie" reaction is called intellectual honesty. Don't get it wrong, I still think that you're scum, but I'm just admitting that my case isn't perfect.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

To be clear Bardull, you're saying J's action is townie so we should give him a free pass to lylo?

Or do you actually leave room to consider he's scum given his actions?

Because if you're asking "Would scum J do this?" and follow it by "No, therefore he must be town" you just described exactly why scum J would do that thing.

And what's your opinion Overswarm?

It sounds like you're just sprinkling seeds of doubt over everyone's crops right now without actually making a judgement call for yourself.

@Kantrip: Pretty ****ing much. Part of the reason that if it wasn't for NAs I would hate this guy right now.