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Trust your instincts ~ Match-Up Index

KillerJawz

KillerJawz

...
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
4,285
I'll get to talking with Yink sometime this week and we can discuss what needs to get done. What I would appreciate greatly is if one of you could be as amazing as to link all the match up exports here.
 
xxmoosexx

xxmoosexx

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
1,086
Location
NC Mooresville
Why is it that when I click the character's icon so I could go look at the MU.

But it just takes me to the resource of the picture.

What am I doing wrong lol?

Im on a mac btw.
 
TKD

TKD

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
1,587
Location
Tijuana, México
This never got updated...well, in my current 2014 opinion:

Fox beats Bowser bad
beats Donkey bad
beats ganon bad
beats puff bad
beats zelda bad
beats Falcon
beats g&w
beats ike
beats ddd
beats kirby
beats link
beats lucario
beats lucas
beats luigi
beats mario
beats ness
beats trainer
beats samus
beats sonic
beats yoshi
is even with Diddy
is even with Falco
is even with mk
is even with olimar
is even with pit
is even with rob
is even with snake
is even with toon link
is even with wario
is even with wolf
is even with zss
loses to marth
loses to peach
loses to sheik
loses badly to IC
loses very badly to pika

any of this is subject to change examples maybe fox beats rob/olimar/pit maybe he's even with peach maybe he loses to mk but my immediate perspective is the above and i could give reasons, for many match-ups i have valid ones or tons of experience and for others i have zero or almost no experience and i follow gut feeling or my imagination

anyhow this is the most accurate list for brawl fox you can find considering i'm the only good fox player besides maybe crz/yui, am the best out of us at both brawl and playing fox in it and have played in tournaments since the game came out

also many of these were agreed upon between myself and either my area/region's community or the best or one of the best in the world at either the other char or the other char's match-up vs fox for example m2k for mk larry for falco esam for pika etc i've even played the best mario in the world and my opinion on that match-up was also agreed upon

about ic and pika i think that about pika since he's harder to punish when he approaches vs platforms (you probably need to platform drop out of shield vs pika when ic you can just shieldgrab their uair from above) and he can crouch fox's standing laser (which is the lowest laser in brawl that doesn't require you to go offstage before executing)

this was extremely lazy writing but match-up odds aren't that important to me since for the most part abusing mechanics is way more important than "playing to the matchup" (unless it's bad/very bad for fox or free for my other char in which case i consider switching)

i'm gonna start posting stuff maybe i can kind of revive the fox section even though i don't even know if anyone still plays fox
 
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M@v

M@v

Subarashii!
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Messages
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Although I haven't really played much recently, I do mostly agree with that list. Only things I'd change (and you actually touched on a couple of these already)

is even with Diddy= Stage dependent imo
is even with mk = Also stage dependent
is even with olimar = I think fox loses. Really hard to get in on him.
is even with rob = Beats rob badly. So many multi-hit moves that can combo rob, outcamps him, and I'm pretty sure I've never lost to rob in tourney, and only lost a couple mms ever in the mu. It could just be me and the matchup though I guess. Robs only up on fox is edgeguarding, and even then Fox has the easiest time getting back vs rob out of all 3 spacies.
loses to marth = loses badly (I feel its his worst matchup outside the big 3 sheik, ic pika, and the hardest that doesn't involve some dumb lock or chaingrab)
loses to peach = I can see this, although I see it closer to even.
 
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TKD

TKD

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
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Location
Tijuana, México
Fox vs Diddy is probably better the more platforms available and the smaller the stage. I don't think it can be too bad anywhere though.

All even match-ups are kind of stage dependent. I'm not sure know where MK actually WINS the match-up though...maybe Halberd probably Lylat but no neutrals.

Fox gets in easily vs Olimar since he can clash with pikmin easily and is really fast. Dair and nair beat usmash so Fox hats lots of platform approaching available. The only way for Olimar to win a projectile war is for him to short hop pikmin toss so you can blaster to bait him into short hopping and dash in while he doesn't have ground options. He's not very good at avoiding juggles and is very light, too.

vs ROB not sure. He can edgeguard pretty well and does have good options to get the first hit in. I think it's an overstatement to say that Fox beats him BADLY since by that I mean it's like a 70/30 although we do have edgeguarding, comboing, punishment, reflecting available and easy counters to spotdodge in Fox's aerials. Plus well ROB is ROB-sized which is never good for him and something Fox abuses...still not a huge advantage imo.

Marth is pretty bad but I wouldn't compare him to ics at the moment. Maybe with sheik and I put them in the same category.

Peach has large hitboxes and like no lag on anything plus her annoying projectile AND a beginning % chaingrab that's pretty strong but I don't really have much experience against her.

Reviewing the list, there's a big chance we beat Lucario BADLY since well he sucks and Fox kind of rocks him whole. Also Falcon but I don't have enough experience to call that one (and never will; what in the world is a Falcon player?).
 
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Wusi

Wusi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
44
Location
Germany, Duesseldorf NRW
Matchups I'd really love to break down would be Diddy and TL. I have a slight idea what to do in the TL MU, but Diddy is a mystery to me.
I think ZSS is in Foxes favor. Both juggle each other pretty well but Fox has an easier time getting out of juggles. His juggling game is mad OP as well; dash attacking her whiffs and airdodge landings, PS utilting/grabbing her aerials when she tries to land, since Fox is up your face immediately it's pretty easy to make her mess up her spacing. Most people come to the conclusion that the MU is in ZSSes favor due to the dsmash lock, but it almost never happens.

I haven't really played great peaches offline (just Illmatic online) but I think it's even or slightly foxes favor, you know how peach is gonna land most of the time (mostly with dair), I just fair/bair her from the side. Only thing that's kinda hard to deal with to me are float aerials on the ground (that you can't hit with ac fairs). All in all her aerials seem pretty telegraphed to me (especially bair and fair, though fair isn't really punishable unless you interrupt her before the move comes out), and you can punish most of the things she does except for fair (and maybe a well spaced bair, but not sure).
Peach gets kinda dangerous when she gets to combo you and you gotta be pretty aware how you choose to land/recover because she can catch your airdodge or doublejump pretty easily, actually. What I like about the matchup is that you can get below her pretty easily if she chooses to chill in midair too often before slapping your with a fair and oos usmashing some of her stuff (nair,bair,dair)
 
Jet3000

Jet3000

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
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122
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Memphis, TN
I have some few match ups to breakdown
TL vs Fox is definitely a even match up. Fox has the reflector and TL has various types of projectiles. Z catch TL's bombs and use them against him if you were facing a Diddy. But beware, even though Fox has a reflector, TL can still approach Fox with his projectiles and close in Fox. Fox Fair beats arrows and boomerang, so I think Fair would be a helpful aerial. Watch out for his returing boomerang, it could set up for a kill move. Fox can punish TL's nair with an Oos up smash.

Thats all I have today...
 
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Wusi

Wusi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
44
Location
Germany, Duesseldorf NRW
closing in is exactly what you're looking for in the tl matchup. tbh I think fox can outcamp tl if he wants to, though. fox has 4 things he's stronger at in the mu - camping, gimping, momentum and killing. tl only really forces you to move in a certain way if you can't deal with his projectiles. as for gimping, we have the shine and ledgedrop dj nair stagespikes or whatever.
and for the momentum part, fox has a way easier time getting out of tl's momentum because of shine (don't overextend with it though or you'll get hit, you can bait this though and fastfall airdodge if you think (maybe react) your opponent is gonna jump up to you, this is not TL MU specific though.) and we have a landing option like nair as well (can be shieldgrabbed by tl though, better crossup).
and when we have momentum, tl can get juggled pretty badly. due to our runningspeed, we can get below him before he tries to land to zair and just dash attack him, or shieldgrab/powershield turnaround utilt his zair when we run up to him. this can depend on the size of the stage and how far away he di'd from us, though. not to mention that tl can't fastfall when we just hit him and that his normal falling speed is pretty slow. if he holds a bomb he'll try to invincibomb (airdodge + z bomb drop), in case you were gonna uair him and to cover a spot to give himself an easier time landing. when juggling, just adapt to the way the tl player lands and surprise him with aerials when he is getting used to your ground frametraps.
killing should be obvious, we kill earlier than him, dair and nair can lead to upsmash and tl only has his upsmash around 100%, utilt around 130ish, downsmash is something between those two not really sure, and fsmash is fsmash, not really the killing move that tl will be looking for a lot like usmash. this goes for the ground though, always watch out for uairs, hectic ones or frametrap ones. tl will be looking for utilt A LOT once you hit that percentage, like airdodging into you to utilt or just utilting whenever you're close to him. front side utilt is an easy punish when you shield it, if you're next to him you can oos usmash too. wouldn't try to punish the backside of his utilt when you're not in range for an oos usmash though. I'd say it's AT LEAST even, if not in foxes favor.

two matchups in particular I'd like to discuss with all of you would be snake and diddy. I literally didn't learn anything from the diddy matchup discussion thread. as for snake, I have a general idea of the matchup (like what to do, how to punish him) but maybe there are some deeper things I don't seem to get, dunno. used to fight snakes offline often, but I'm not really solid in that matchup.
also sorry if this is hard to read, I really should learn how to write properly. :p
 
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M@v

M@v

Subarashii!
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vs snake, lasers are OP. Seriously. Easily the best projectile in the game vs snake. If you laser and shine properly you can completely shut down snake's grenades, and always force him to come to you. Don't just shoot at snake; get good at blowing up grenades with your lasers, especially while they are still in range of snake to rack up even more free damage. Also, use and abuse your mult-hit moves vs him. If it wasn't for snakes uptilt which completely wrecks fox, this would be an easy +1 fox. Uptilt is that freaking good vs fox.
 
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Wusi

Wusi

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Nov 17, 2009
Messages
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yeah, I believe fox outcamps any character in the game (hope that's not an overstatement) if you play it right.
utilt never really wasn't my issue with the matchup, only situations where I pray to God that I won't get utilted is when I land or when I'm cornered. I usually look for his utilts when I'm in kill% because utilt is punishable, I like free punishes =D

I think where things get complicated for me is on the ground, I know how to punish everything like ftilt1, ftilt2, etc. (thanks to that one thread) but when he mixes his jab and tilts up I get confused haha
 
M@v

M@v

Subarashii!
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Fox is what I like to call a great anti camper. What I mean by that is he can't camp some characters better than the "top tier" campers can (like falco), but when he goes up against those top tier camping characters, he can beat them at their own game, and force them into spots they aren't used to. This is due to his speed, his reflector, and the fact his laser range isn't far enough to always hit himself with if they get reflected. Characters like snake and falco both are great at camping, but can't do it as effectively vs fox.
 
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smashkng

smashkng

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TKD said:
Fox vs Diddy is probably better the more platforms available and the smaller the stage. I don't think it can be too bad anywhere though.

All even match-ups are kind of stage dependent. I'm not sure know where MK actually WINS the match-up though...maybe Halberd probably Lylat but no neutrals.

Fox gets in easily vs Olimar since he can clash with pikmin easily and is really fast. Dair and nair beat usmash so Fox hats lots of platform approaching available. The only way for Olimar to win a projectile war is for him to short hop pikmin toss so you can blaster to bait him into short hopping and dash in while he doesn't have ground options. He's not very good at avoiding juggles and is very light, too.

vs ROB not sure. He can edgeguard pretty well and does have good options to get the first hit in. I think it's an overstatement to say that Fox beats him BADLY since by that I mean it's like a 70/30 although we do have edgeguarding, comboing, punishment, reflecting available and easy counters to spotdodge in Fox's aerials. Plus well ROB is ROB-sized which is never good for him and something Fox abuses...still not a huge advantage imo.

Marth is pretty bad but I wouldn't compare him to ics at the moment. Maybe with sheik and I put them in the same category.

Peach has large hitboxes and like no lag on anything plus her annoying projectile AND a beginning % chaingrab that's pretty strong but I don't really have much experience against her.

Reviewing the list, there's a big chance we beat Lucario BADLY since well he sucks and Fox kind of rocks him whole. Also Falcon but I don't have enough experience to call that one (and never will; what in the world is a Falcon player?).
Click to expand...
As a Marth main I don't agree with the Marth matchup being comparable to Sheik for Fox. Sure Marth wins but it's still very winnable for Fox. The only reason I think Marth wins is because of his better reward than Fox for gaining momentum: If Marth gets offstage Marth will likely take some damage and could even potentially get gimped, although gimping Marth is very hard with Fox. But if Fox gets offstage it CAN potentially mean the end of his stock at almost any % and if not the Fox will usually take a ton of damage. But, even then Fox has some options to avoid Marth's edge guards even if they're not good. That and Marth's shenanigans with all the throw combos at 0%. Those have to be at 0% though and Fox has ways around it. You could also argue that Marth juggles Fox better but that's not really by that much. Marth himself struggles when he is above the opponent and Fox is no exception when it comes Marth having problems there. And if there is anything Fox is better at than Marth, that's his relatively reliable Usmash which KOes earlier than anything Marth has that is either not an edge guard or extremely hard to land like a fully charged neutral b or a tipper Fsmash.

Other than the reward for gaining momentum the matchup is pretty damn even, including in the neutral game I'd say. Both really want momentum in this matchup and I'd say that when it comes to the ability to gain it both are approximately even. It's just the reward for gaining it which makes the difference in the matchup. But other than from grabs and offstage, the difference in reward is small. Still prolly Fox's worst MU that isn't in the worst 3 ones but at least from the Marth perspective the matchup doesn't feel free. I wouldn't call the matchup better than +1 for Marth.
 
TKD

TKD

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Messages
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Tijuana, México
"+"-what? LOL you mean numbers like the ones from that joke of a match-up chart the BBR made?

@ smashkng smashkng : Maybe it's not that I'm overestimating Marth and more that you're just overestimating how well Sheik does vs Fox.

@ M@v M@v : Fox is a great "anti-camper" as in 1. He sucks at camping, BUT 2. He's practically uncampable (except by low crawlers). So you can OUTcamp pretty much any character, but you can't really camp anyone who's actually trying to approach (trust me, I've tried... For years).

@ Wusi Wusi : For ideas vs Snake, just search "tkd fox vs havok snake" on youtube.
 
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