Trouble with Captain Falcon

[SCOTU]

I know this sounds dumb, since fox is supposed to beat the crap out of falcon, but i always lose to them. My typical style involves spacing them out w/ shls and Full hopped and shffld nairs. (which seem to lose to Falcon's uair). I'm decent at shine comboing, but i have difficulties landing a good comboing shine (i often use a dair to lead into one, but Falcon moves too fast to be hit by Dairs well).

Here's a vid from a recent local tourney where I'm knocked out of the winners bracket by a CF.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...l=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Any advice on how to pressure CF and escape his pressure would be helpful.

Thanks.

 

[j00t]

I'm just gonna give you advice based on the first match of that video that you provided.

You need to work on your tech skill. A lot of times you would jump out of your shine, where you could of easily done a reverse waveshine/waveshine turn. Suiciding because you airdodged doesn't help the situation either.

Your edgeguarding/hogging needs work as well, mainly with reading your opponent and predicting where he is going to go. At one instance, Captain Falcon was below the stage and recovering, and you forward-smashed. Edgehog and shinespike when needed! I think there was another time where you simply tried to SHL the recovering Falcon.

In general, I just think your method of fighting a Captain Falcon on Yoshi's Story is slow and predictable. You would literally stay in one place and do repeated fullhopped bairs. I found it amusing that after the Falcon would die, you would do wavelands all over the platforms. Since Captain Falcon supposedly doesn't have much mobility on stages like YS and FoD, use that to your advantage. MOVE ALL OVER THAT STAGE, and don't stay in one place. Those wavelands will surely help you on that. Use Fox's mobility on those stages to your advantage, and don't camp the middle of the map with bairs

You're handicapping yourself by sitting there and bairing. Have some variety and use throws, i.e. don't do SHFFL'd n-airs 95% of the time. And when you do SHFFL, be sure to transition with a clean waveshine to grab! Fox can juggle CF for godly amounts of damage, especially on Yoshi's Story.

Also, when Falcon's at a high percentage, don't keep on using those n-airs! They just don't get the job done. That's when you transition to grab -> u-air, drill -> waveshine -> uthrow -> uair, or even drill -> waveshine -> upsmash. Or start predicting his movements and hit him with a well-timed upsmash when he goofs up.

That's all I can see for now. I'll probably watch the video again to give you more pointers, cause I just suck at giving you all the hints in one sitting. Main point of the post:

Don't do repeated b-airs, as your mobility alone on a stage like YS and FoD pressures a Captain Falcon.

 

[SCOTU]

k, thanks man, i look forward to the additional (constructive) advice. @ that air dodge SD... that was just a spur of the moment **** up. It doesn't normally happen. ever.

edit: (btw, i have more waveshine tech skill as anyone will ever need, i just fail to think to use it certain times).

 

[Apocalypse™]

Stop bairing so much.. nair instead lol.
Practice your techskill and grab more.. vs lvl 1 computer anyone?

 

[Ronnie]

CF is a lot harder to beat than most people think. Trust me I play a really good one alot, Houston you know who I am talking about. (JEREMY FIEFER LOL)

jk Roy_R is too good, and I realized that tech skill is very important vs falcon, so just practice that alot and it will improve your chances of winning greatly.

 

[HiddenBowser]

your edge guarding needed a bit of work in that match. when CF is off the edge w/o his jump and you are edge guarding he should die, no matter the % he's at.

you also need to change up your approach. he would often times let you approach predictably and get out of the way only to come back and hit you right after it.

 

[tarheeljks]

more nair-->shine combos. also, wd out of those shines.

 

[iconicSLEAZOID]

It seems you were nervous in this match up first of all (maybe it's because of how stationary you seemed and some of the excessive rolling in the first round) so I don't think that helped. Do Falcons work up some nerves a bit?

Your ledgeteching skills and meteorcanceling in the 2nd round were awsome btw.

Moving on, you did tend to Nair more than you needed to. try staying back a little more, waiting things out. Because Falcon has speed, sometimes he'll start something that you can interrupt him on with Fox's low lag. Mindgame him some so you can get in with your drill to shine combos.

I sort of saw a lot of repetition in the first round, that might make things a little too predictable. Mindgame some combos by attempting 2 of the same combo, and enter the 3rd combo differently. Strangely some "noobish" playing sometimes works to throw him off.

In the first round you attempted to ledgeguard with a shine while he was upB'ing. No no. Sometimes it works, but there are better solutions than to look fancy and take a risk like that. Wait it out, PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE. lol.

JWT covered a lot of the main points, especially about changing your game when Falcon gets to higher percent. FOLLOW THAT.

 

[True Fool]

I suggest avoiding that Yoshi level if wave-dash ledge-grabbing is a large part of your strategy against CF. That level is death against wave-dash-edge-hogging.

Besides that it looked like you held still after a while. Try not to make a habit out of it, because other than that it looked like you were whoopin' him.

 

[SCOTU]

It seems you were nervous in this match up first of all (maybe it's because of how stationary you seemed and some of the excessive rolling in the first round) so I don't think that helped. Do Falcons work up some nerves a bit?

Your ledgeteching skills and meteorcanceling in the 2nd round were awsome btw.

Moving on, you did tend to Nair more than you needed to. try staying back a little more, waiting things out. Because Falcon has speed, sometimes he'll start something that you can interrupt him on with Fox's low lag. Mindgame him some so you can get in with your drill to shine combos.

I sort of saw a lot of repetition in the first round, that might make things a little too predictable. Mindgame some combos by attempting 2 of the same combo, and enter the 3rd combo differently. Strangely some "noobish" playing sometimes works to throw him off.

In the first round you attempted to ledgeguard with a shine while he was upB'ing. No no. Sometimes it works, but there are better solutions than to look fancy and take a risk like that. Wait it out, PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE. lol.

JWT covered a lot of the main points, especially about changing your game when Falcon gets to higher percent. FOLLOW THAT.

Thanks. This is gonna help me a bunch. Yeah, Falcon's do scare me sometimes, since i've been eliminated by them every tourney i go to. Not to mention that this guy's better than I, and i knew that. Watching these again, i see more need for dsmash edgeguard. And yeah, i did have a tendancy to not waveshine that match (which is bad, since one of my only strengths is my waveshine game).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

captain falcon is a good char, but he is easy to beat when you know what to do.

strengths:
comboing (duh)
long dashdance
great tech chase game
great finisher in the knee
very fast

weaknesses:
low priority
very fast - many moves end up wiffed
low traction
no projectile


okay, now let me explain. do your best to watch out for his strengths. mix up your techs, improve your DI, and dashdance to counter his. for the weaknesses, you can exploit his low priority with basically any move. if u are going to meet up midair, throw out a nair, and you will probably win every time (CFs only move with priority is his uair, and not many falcons approach with that, though i saw isai do it a bit recently. most approach with knee or nair.) because he is so fast, lower skilled players might not have full control, so you can abuse this with some small movement out of the way then exploiting his lag. because he has no traction, he is very comboable with the shine. just do what chillin does, every time you hit a shine you should at least get an usmash, and then follow it for uairs or a bair or nair or something. if you do that, each shine will give you some 30%+

last but not least, CF has no projectile. This is probably your biggest strength in any matchup. if you see CF dd camping, just start SHDLing him. this forces him to come to you, and now you have a huge advantage. i cant exactly explain how this works, but just abuse all the lag you can find. look for missed lcancels, smashes, wiffs, ect. and go in and start a combo on him. unless he is darkrain, you will have a pretty decent time.

oh yea, and dont do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdJhhXc3qEs lol

 

[SCOTU]

Sveet: Thanks a ton, I'm never too sure what moves to intercept CF with. When he Dash Dances, i always had a tendancy to try to intercept him at his max distance of the dash w/ a full hopped nair cause i always figured his dash dance was better than mine, so a DD war would always result in his favor. And on the lasering, i'm very used to lasering the hell outta ppl (i do it a ton to every other character). I just always figured CF was too fast to effectively camp (i guess i should try just camping for a very short period of time?). Those are two things that i'm normally comfortable doing, just not against CF, so i'll have to try to get those into my game against him. btw, i think you mean he has high traction, not low.
And at darkrain combo: lol. Na, that's never happened to me (but worse have).

 

[Wilhelmsan]

Fox's wavedash will go right under CF's aerials; such as when he's trying to outspace you with his nair.

Wavedash forward -> Fsmash is surprisingly good.

Intercepting CF with your jc upsmash is useful as well. Shine often.

_______________


Watched the video.

-You need to edgeguard better. Use dsmash if he's coming from the side.
If he's coming from above or below, edgehog first. Shine him when he gets near from below, bair him if he gets near from above. But only do these if you know he will get back on the stage. Otherwise, edgehogging is the smartest way to edgeguard CF.

 

[tarheeljks]

yeah he has high traction, that's why you can make his life miserable by waveshining.

jfox made this thread about cg falcon and it basically turned into a debate over whether it was even worth trying to cg him when waveshine combos where so effective. there's some good stuff in here about how to combo a falcon.


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=101710&highlight=chain+grab+%2B+falcon

 

[Soma]

I know its been said a few times but you could of won that with two stocks left or so if you did better with your edge game. His first stock should of ended when he used his up-b but, you jumped off the ledge. There were a couple of other chances to cause him to lose his stock at moderate percentages. Falcon and Ganon have the most predictable recoveries, punish that.

 

[Oskurito]

Scotu that falcon sucked and you dissapointed me, but I'm sure you were nervous or something... that happens to everyone sometimes so I wont say work on your tech skill.

If you have trouble against falcons just play them more.. besides I'm totally sure you can answer yourself, or am I wrong scotu?

combo advice: My favorite: Upthrow>waveshine (repeat)

 

[Miharu]

Be more mobile with Fox, and use those platforms to your advantage. If you're going to fulljump bair, lcancel it on a platform, then drop through the platform with another bair or nair/dair. Just fulljumping bairs isn't too good of a way to pressure shields. Be sure to abuse Fox's grab game, since uthrow can net you a free aerial, or a free utilt leading into an aerial if they don't DI the initial throw. Dair -> waveshine is also a free throw, tilt, or smash.

Don't try to approach CF from directly overhead, since his uair will eat through a fulljumped nair. Better to approach w/ shffled nair/dair or drop through platforms.

Yeah, it actually looked like most of your deaths were due to just nervous mistakes.

 

[ArcNatural]

I think you need to use Fox's movement tricks alot better. Almost everytime you moved forward you were attacking him, and it made it really easy for him to counter that. Mix short and long dash dances to shffl nairs to keep it varied. Just because Falcon has a faster DD doesn't mean he won't mistime or make mistakes do to your movements. You should never stand still very long, and make sure you pay attention to what he is doing. It is really easy to shield a nair or raptor boost from a Falcon even in the middle of a dash dance as long as your paying attention to what he does. And due to it being a Falcon, I think your better off just using shl since you can fast fall it to keep your speed up.

One other thing I noticed is your extremely defensive when your getting up, whether you teched or not. A lot of falcon are just DDing to wait for the spot dodge or shield. A decent little mindgame is to always spotdodge or try to spot dodge their tech chases if they are trying to regrab. Then once they start DDing around you can normally just get up and shffl aerials or a fsmash.

 

[Ryan-K]

You got lured in too easily by his DD camping and jumped right into it.

Also FJ aerials arent as good on CF as they are other characters because he can uair you out of them with no effort however a nair at ground level CF has trouble dealing with, but what I usually do vs cf is i DD camp alot with some lasers too to discourage their camping and try to bait them out at a range (like near the end of their DD range) with shffled nairs and i cover my lag with a jab if he chooses to try to punish me, and you can run after a jab unlike the shine.

Unless I have him in a prime position for whatever i want to do to him I tend to play a hit and run game with him. Also utilt pretty much beats out all of his approaches and it's pretty gay vs CF lol.

And yeah, you tended to get predictable when you just full jumped into bair or whatever. Remember you almost have the same speed as falcon except you have more options and better priority. Abuse it.

You don't move around as much as you should even if you aren't attacking or whatever, but you moved in too close when he was dash dancing and made it so easy for him to punish.

hope i helped

 

[Druggedfox]

Um, mostly mistakes were from careless mistakes that have been mentioned. DI is something that i notied wasntmentioned a lot, and its crucial when getting combo'ed or hit off the stage. On FoD u died at 84% from a bair...Not good. U should be able to survive his bair over 100 damage if u DI the second he hits u, as well as up and towards the stage. Another thing wrong was that u did not juggle with u-airs up tilts, or up smashs whatsoever. This is bad for foxes game because usually its possible to juggle him to insanely high damages. Also i noticed u like platform stages, but i think u should pick Final Destination more. The juggling is good on that stage because there are no platforms to escape on. Whether you showed it in your vid or not, u said u r good at waveshining, so take advantage of FD's flat surface to waveshine him off stage and shine spike him.

 

[Druggedfox]

Double post cuz my computer wont load the whole thing lolz...

For edgeguarding, you can just bair and downsmash when he sweetspots. If u do feel a need to shine spike him, then hold onto the edge and keep ledgehopping or infinite stall to get invincibility frames, and then if he goes below u, easy shine spike. If he goes above you, either bair him, or what really destroys him...a ledghopped shine spike. Even if he DI's basically perfectly, since he is a fast faller all u have to do is ledgehop shinespike twice in a row, and then u can edgehog guaranteed. For lasering against falcon...though he is fast, if u r on a stage like FD then laser him continuously. Since he has no projectile, he will be forced to come towards you. He will mostly be thinking"oh crap hes lasering me, i better get over there" and will forgot to have any mindgames when coming in there, so either up smash him out of his aerial which is easy because of priority, or u could simply shield grab him/mindgame to grab. If he DD a lot then just run away and laser spam. Though he is faster u have more mobility. U also fell for what many fastfallers do against falcon...he down throws, and either waits there or short hops toward u fall slightly. Most space animal players jsut tech in spot, and they get knee'd or dair'd. Try waiting until hes about to hit u and either tech behind him or get up attack. Just dont do the sam way every time, but u did that same kind of getup about 70% of the time. Also if he is DD while u r on the ground, wait till he DD too far in one direction then immediately tech the other way. Thats all for now, but once again
1)Since u have an excellent grab game, use that to get in an easy u-tilt to upsmash then u air. That is a good 40% damage w/o doing much.
2)Read cunning kitsunes fox guide for matchups. He covers everything just about perfectly. I may comment about future things, if u post more vids...Btw i like your foxes style. Too bad it doesnt shine more XD.

Hope i helped =)

 

[Tundravalco]

i refuse to believe that my hero needs advice. THIS IS A JOKE THREAD!

 

[Oskurito]

THIS IS A JOKE THREAD!

I hope so ...

 

[Druggedfox]

XD ROFL ten characters needed to post.

 

[SCOTU]

I hope so ...

Me too...

OK. I think I've got it now. I tend to play defensively and pretend that he has an shl. What i need to do is stay closer and play more aggresively, and try to combo all my attacks that connect. Mostly, CF just scares the living hell outta me, so i react stupidly w/o thinking (i.e. spot dodging when one shouldn't). I guess i just need more confidence, and playing more aggresively.

 

[Tundravalco]

c.falc scares me too especially when i start getting tech chased and i get scared and it just leads to more predictable techs. oh well i think the captain scares alot of people.....EXCEPT GANONDORF!. long live ganondorf.

 

[Shai Hulud]

NAIR should outprioritize any of Falcon's moves.

If he's stomping a lot you can intercept them with utilts.

Don't shoot lasers at Falcon. Just don't do it. He can run across FD in half a second and knee you in the face at the slightest mistake with your lasering.

Umm...Falcon dies off the top at high damage as you know. The best way to kill him is to get him to the edge and gimp him. He can't sweetspot so he is very easy to gimp. Just shine him but be careful to connect it properly or his up-B could hit you. Or you could just stay on the stage and downsmash, but if he ledge techs he could still recover.

So...to summarize. NAIR is your most spammable aerial against Falcon. Just SHFFL them like mad, L-cancelling into shine if he shields. Utilt will intercept aerials or at worst trade hits (which can be bad against a knee), which then leads to ueber-gay combos, like uair uair uair, or utilt utilt uair uair uair, etc. When you get Falcon off the stage, shine him, taking care to space properly to avoid the up-B hit.

That's pretty much it. You just have to play super gay against Falcon. I know because I used to main Falcon and Foxes made me sad. =(

 

[Shai Hulud]

Computer isn't letting me edit so please forgive the double post--

Also, always DI away on Falcon's uthrow. Uthrow leads to fsmash around 70ish if you don't DI away, which will kill you basically 100% of the time.

And some of these people are giving you bad advice. There's no need to stall on the edge because Falcon's up-B can't hit you on the edge and it's laggy as hell. If he makes it back to the stage you have a good second to attack him with whatever you please. Ledgehop=>waveland=>shine=> more edgeguarding is good if you have the tech skill, which I think you do. Druggedfox is ********. Don't shoot lasers at Falcon unless he's DD camping on the opposite side of FD, in which case you will have time to hit him with like...2 lasers before you get a knee to the face. Not really worth it. And don't pick FD against Falcon...Jesus Christ, he will tech chase the **** out of you if he's worth a ****. That is Falcon's best stage against every character but Falco. Don't do it. FOD is the worst Falcon stage against spacies, and platforms in general will save you from many stomp=> knee, raptor boost => knee, uthrow => knee, etc., combos. BAD DRUGGEDFOX!

 

[Fefnir Cerveau]

Actually, I think the bair is Fox's best aerial, but that's just me. I think you're doing a pretty good job with the bairs.

Like previously said, don't spam that nair as much. Be masashi =D
On your edge game, don't be afraid to use a dsmash. It's easier to time than a shine, and even if he techs, you have another shot at hitting/killing him. Also uthrow combos work really well on Falcon, so try getting a few more grabs in.

Off topic, but I liked that Falcon haha

 

[Druggedfox]

Not rly. I do well against falcon on that stage, it just depends on your style.

 

[SCOTU]

I actually think my style might be suited more for fighting falcon on FD than FoD. I counterpick FoD like every time, but it never does me any good. (i tend to do better on YS, Stadium, FD, while doing worse on FoD, DL64, Battlefield... oddly enough). But i do see some flaws w/ Druggedfox, but he's not completely ********.

 

[kerploplesteesh]

Im not going to give any real constructive advice here scotu, but i will say that you didnt lose to just ANY falcon, you lost to Nario: The OG falcon.

 

[WhiteOblv]

bro u totally coulda had that match. Waveshine more, dont bair spam in the middle of the stage lol. Use other moves besides nair? Edge guard falcon better using. dsmash, shine-spiking, ledge hop bairs. You got this