Trimming the Hedges: Ivysaur 3.0 Development Rationale

[EmLeingod]

Any other Ivy players feel like up throw up b is guaranteed kill at certain percents on majority of the cast? . Generally the 50%-80% range depending on the character (I think I killed a Jiggs at 30% damage when she was close to the ledge) it might be even higher where you can do it. And sure, you have to adjust to DI, but usually they're in hit stun long enough to make that adjustment every time (unless you mess up). Floaties seem to be the only ones that can DI far enough away before I can adjust to their DI.

It's worse than Fox's up throw up air IMO, and I main Ivy. Perhaps make it a 2 hit deal where the second hit has the insane knock back, and the first hit has a higher SDI multiplier. Would make it so some skill/reaction time was required to get out of it (like fox's up air) but still be worth trying to pull off for Ivy. I really don't see too many high level Ivys do it that often, but I have done it several times to high level players.

To be clear, I don't think it makes her broken, but guaranteed out of throw kills are no fun to be on the receiving end of (especially at medium-high damage). It's too easy to grab (I hate throws that kill too, but that's besides the point I'm trying to make here)

What do you guys think? Am I overlooking something, or am I onto something?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

U-Throw has an angle of 100 and D-Throw has an angle of 80. The mixup is to hold the direction that is behind Ivysaur to avoid U-Throw follow-up and in front to avoid D-Throw follow-up. Do you feel that that doesn't work, or do you usually just not DI behind Ivysaur for fear of B-Throw (which is not nearly as powerful as it was in 2.6)?

 

[EmLeingod]

U-Throw has an angle of 100 and D-Throw has an angle of 80. The mixup is to hold the direction that is behind Ivysaur to avoid U-Throw follow-up and in front to avoid D-Throw follow-up. Do you feel that that doesn't work, or do you usually just not DI behind Ivysaur for fear of B-Throw (which is not nearly as powerful as it was in 2.6)?

I can usually get off the up-b in time even when they DI behind me (unless they are at too high a percent). I've never actually been on the receiving end of this, but I don't usually fight many Ivy's (only good one in my region is Denti and I've only played him once).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If they're DI'ing up and away (wqhich is the natural reaction) they won't change the trajectory very much. If they DI straight left/right (and maybe slightly downward), it's more escapable.

 

[Humble Dojo]

I agree with Reflex. There isnt any guaranteed follow ups with ivys throws. Its all di mixups and the often times can either jump or fast fall out of the follow ups also. The people you are playing probably need to DI better. And there are far more obnoxious throw follow ups from other characters. Like kirby, pit and toon links having a million follow ups from d throw.

 

[Swann]

And MK! I'm holding out that someone will remember why Shiek's dthrow was changed and apply that reasoning to these other characters.

Played against a competent PM player's (Anther) Falco. We are a terrible weight. =(((

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I just wanna say, could this maybe be done for all the characters? Its really interesting to read and it helps break down the mysterious wall between PMBR decisions and us commonfolk.

 

[TreK]

Let's go through this one more time now that we all know better.

Ivysaur has always had a bit of a rocky relationship with the players. In 2.5, the coverage of most of her moves left a lot to be desired, leading to a centralization around a handful of her safest ranged options, like F-Air and B-Air. This caused her to have a polarized matchup spread, with faster characters doing a number on her and slower characters getting demolished.

This is still the case in 3.0 : Ivy loses to fast characters. You can outcamp her by simply dash dancing.
The only difference is, now she also loses to projectile based characters because her rate of fire is a lot lower than everyone else's.

2.6(b) added speed and flexibility to many of her moves, but did little to balance the matchups she won in 2.5, making her a top tier threat but allowing her to dominate a large chunk of the cast. This had the side-effect of making her metagame very formulaic and intuitive to a fault, where there were few "bad" options at any given moment and little variation between players.

That last statement was false : Ivy was known as a spammer character, and I averaged 10 razor leaves per game in 2.6b. My rushdown style was as viable as variations.
Now the only difference between my Ivysaur and others is that I'm either slightly better, or slightly worse than the other Ivy main. There is a single correct way of playing Ivysaur, and then it's all down to who is the most consistent, who makes the most reads and who plays the least marths.

That said, we also increased the base knockback on F-Air, allowing it to be a stronger option against crouch canceling despite the extra start-up (something that stuffed a fair amount of Ivysaur offense before), so it's not all bad there.

3.0 fair sucks against crouch cancelling, I don't know what was the plan but it didn't work.

B-Air was notorious for being incredibly quick and safe, with the rate of attacks being incredibly difficult to get through. To remedy this, B-Air was reverted to 2.5 stats, so while it is noticeably slower, it regains its potential as a powerful KO and edgeguarding tool (it's probably the single most effective edgeguarding move in the game now), as well as being less susceptible to crouch canceling.

Nope, this sucks against crouch cancelling too. Except when gimping, you won't see Ivysaurs doing bairs until 50%.

F-Tilt has more cooldown and is much more vulnerable behind her, requiring good spacing to get the most out of it.

Don't get me started on ftilt. You really don't want to get me started on ftilt.

U-Air's sourspot sends people at a more horizontal angle, D-Air has more endlag, and both moves have sweetspots closer to Ivysaur, but the sweetspots are stronger, making them more decisive finishers.

The dair getting stronger is worthless, because it's a meteor. It could deal 40%, people still wouldn't die to it.

Also of note are the changes to her throws; F-Throw was made more in line with B-Throw to make them both decent throws that must be followed up on with edgeguards in order to get a KO.

Good touch, except because of the dthrow/uthrow mixup there is never a valid reason to ever fthrow or bthrow.

blah blah blah neutral b windbox

This could make the character so much more creative and interesting, but it is just too weak to be anything more than a gimmick.
It took us less than a month to push this "deep mechamic" to its fullest.
The funny thing is that in the same update, you released mewtwo and gave him a glorious wind box on side B.

Seed bomb : The projectile has been slowed down and doesn't go as high, making it easier for opponents to react to and for Ivysaur players to combo into it for extra damage, putting an emphasis on it as a situational zoning tool instead of projectile lockdown and vertical combo endings.

Situational was the right choice of words indeed.
Vertical KOs were the only thing they were good at. Now this move is a "I don't really know what to do so I'm just going to seed bomb amd hope it hits" type of move.

Anything I didn't quote I think was a great change. I think Ivysaur is a very potent character (would be top tier if half of her bad matchups weren't the most popular characters in this game) but she's just. So. Boring.

 

[Dakpo]

Sometimes you gotta stop letting razor leaf hold your hand, and actually interact in meaningful ways with your opponents.

DIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEDDD

 

[EmLeingod]

You guys ready for the nerfs? ):

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm ready. Spacing and edgeguarding have always been her verbs, and some of the universal changes benefit her a good deal in that, IMO.

'course, not all of them...

 

[TreK]

Does 3.5 Ivysaur win the Marth matchup ?
The amount of dedication I'll be able to put in 3.5 will be mostly dependent on that fact.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I seriously doubt it. I effin' hate Marth.

 

[TreK]

Me too bro, me too.

 

[EmLeingod]

I'm ready. Spacing and edgeguarding have always been her verbs, and some of the universal changes benefit her a good deal in that, IMO.

'course, not all of them...

Man where have you been? I miss your Ivy!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Smash 4, mostly. Can't wait for the Wii U version...

 

[TreK]

Holy **** that's what you meant when you said you "doubted" that Ivy wins the Marth matchup ? lmao

I'm outta here.

I'm gonna play ganon or something, see you in a year.

Peace.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Holy **** that's what you meant when you said you "doubted" that Ivy wins the Marth matchup ? lmao

I'm outta here.

I'm gonna play ganon or something, see you in a year.

Peace.

Is it really that bad? :/

 

[TreK]

Picture yourself a 7-3

Now nerf the character with the 3 and don't change anything about the one with the 7

Yup.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's not -that- terrible; at least, it's not her worst matchup, IMO. The addition of shield SDI means that the braindead Marth edgeguard from Melee of "shield next to the ledge and hold toward the edge" is back, and D-Tilt is still the bee's knees in general.

Dashdancing in its current state wrecks a lot of the game's potential balance; it's not really Marth-centric, though he does benefit a good deal.

 

[CyberZixx]

I think Ivy beats marth in 3.0

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm gonna need you to explain that one. I haven't had any experiences suggesting that.

 

[EmLeingod]

Ivy is so good in 3.5 tho holy **** I love her.

how is the Marth MU worse? his grab shenanigans were nerfed. I haven't played any real people yet though, so I don't have any actual experience.

 

[kevinw0w]

Ivy is so good in 3.5 tho holy **** I love her.

how is the Marth MU worse? his grab shenanigans were nerfed. I haven't played any real people yet though, so I don't have any actual experience.

I have to disagree with you here. I think we al saw the up-b nerf coming, but I did not expect all of these other things as well. Less active frames on grab, up tilt having less BKB and more KBG make it harder to start combos/ setup for kills, fair being shorter, dair stall significantly reduced, and worst of all the new upthrow all make it much harder for Ivy to land an up-b that has already been nerfed reasonably. I went to a tournament today and honestly it just felt really bad. Tbf, I only had an hour of friendlies before bracket started to figure things out, but I'm currently pretty disappointed in the new ivy.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

how is the Marth MU worse? his grab shenanigans were nerfed.

Lol what

If you're talking about his dashgrab range being nerfed, approximately no one that plays Marth cares.

 

[TreK]

It's not -that- terrible; at least, it's not her worst matchup, IMO.

If you're telling me that there is worse than Marth out there, then that's even more reason for me to run away as fast as I can from this character, I hope you realize that

Unless you were talking about 3.0, in which case yeah, I'd say Kirby was actually the worst and Marth was second (or third behind some random member of the fantastic six clan from 3.0)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Melee forever.

 

[Sixonesix]

Lucas was worse lol, Marth was at least a somewhat playable matchup even with his super free tipper setups and tether edgeguards.

Not only did Lucas solidly beat Ivysaur on stage with simple Lucas things, off stage magnet was probably the best tether gimping move in the game and could turn Ivysaur edgeguarding Lucas into a kill for Lucas even in the safest of circumstances.

Eagerly waiting to hear some positive perspectives on 3.5 Ivysaur cause I'm not really feeling it. It's pretty demoralizing trying to figure out matchups against characters we already lost to before (Fox, Marth) when we're a lot worse and they're pretty much the same.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Stick near the edge and try to gimp them--You aren't winning the neutral positioning battle, and it's far and away the most efficient way to KO someone as Ivysaur.

U-Tilt changes make it lead into other grounded moves better, such as a grab. You've still got a good wavedash, D-Tilt, and N-Air to contend with in when you're hanging out near the edge. You're not a fun character to approach. Hold on to that.

 

[Jolteon]

Lol what

If you're talking about his dashgrab range being nerfed, approximately no one that plays Marth cares.

I would assume he is talking about the throw release point fix, which iirc significantly affects Marth's fthrow follow-ups on floaties.