Okay i just have to say i believe the ratio for link vs snake has to be pretty close. I was play against the Hawaii Snake War (on wifi, but really no lag). The match didn't feel terribly one sided even though i have to say hes a much better player then I am. The explosives, while they hurt, don't really kill Link, and in the ability to kill seems fairly even. I felt like i could space and midrange game is a little better then Snake. The only thing that really got me were his traps and well its War, creative snake genius. lol. But snakes projectiles themselves are fairly easy to deal with. I have to say around 55/45 at least in terms of low to no lag wifi. Theres no way its a terrible match up. And once again i'm not amazing so there's no way that it could be because im "good". lol.
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Triforce of Courage: Link's Match-Up Thread!
- Thread starter #HBC | Red Ryu
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AeroLink_the_SoulMaster
Let's rock, baby!
Snake... is one of the characters I have fun playing against. Space well with zair (keep out of ftilt range), and if you anticipate a dash approach with shield, grab him. Basically, you don't want to be next to him, because Snake can follow his jabs to grab; then all hell begins when he dthrows you for tech chasing mindgames (assuming the snake is good at tech chasing). If the snake is campy, make good use of the gale boomerang and arrows; you can also ad-cancel throw his nades right back at him. Bombs are good for disrupting his nade game and adding some more damage; just be careful not to take damage yourself. Pay close attention to where Snake sets his mines or c4. Keep him busy, try your best not to give Snake time to set up his traps. Be quick and try to put some pressure, and play safe. You can jab-cancel into another jab cancel Snake at mid %'s (like around 40-60%) or maybe lower. There's not much you can do edge-guarding-wise, but you might have some success with projectiles or aerials.
As for stages, any stage with platforms will be good for Snake. For a starter stage, aim to take him to smashville or final destination. Battlefield is not too bad, either. I would avoid/strike PS1 and Yoshi's Island. CPing against Snake can be difficult; it's player dependent, really. Brinstar, Norfair, GreenGreens, another neutral, or maybe even Halberd (if you feel you can outplay your opponent). Snake is going to be better on moving/transition stages like Delfino, Castle siege, etc, so that's why it's hard to cp Snake. I've stopped cping to final destination, because I kept getting pocket-falcos, and getting pocket-Ice Climbers sucks too; you would also have to worry about pocket-Dededes. I would ban Frigate Orpheon, or FD if you know you're opponent has a good secondary for that stage.
I'd say this MU is around 55:45 Snake's favor.
As for stages, any stage with platforms will be good for Snake. For a starter stage, aim to take him to smashville or final destination. Battlefield is not too bad, either. I would avoid/strike PS1 and Yoshi's Island. CPing against Snake can be difficult; it's player dependent, really. Brinstar, Norfair, GreenGreens, another neutral, or maybe even Halberd (if you feel you can outplay your opponent). Snake is going to be better on moving/transition stages like Delfino, Castle siege, etc, so that's why it's hard to cp Snake. I've stopped cping to final destination, because I kept getting pocket-falcos, and getting pocket-Ice Climbers sucks too; you would also have to worry about pocket-Dededes. I would ban Frigate Orpheon, or FD if you know you're opponent has a good secondary for that stage.
I'd say this MU is around 55:45 Snake's favor.
I personally think this match-up can go anywhere from being easy to annoyingly difficult depending on how the Snake player plays the match-up.
The thing is, if Snake plays this match-up like he is fighting a top tier character such as Metaknight, Marth, Diddy Kong, etc. you stand a better chance of winning. If he plays this match-up like he is a God-tier killing machine tank of a character vs. a crappy low tier all around inferior character with no good recovery who can't punish his aerial game and who he can blow away with his bare fists, well, then the match-up becomes a bit of an uphill battle.
In terms of projectiles, Snake has nades, the C4, landmine (though this isn't too much of a problem for Link), up smash, and the missile. To counter this Link has bombs, boomerang, and arrows. Gale boomerang can stop snakes nades but a good Snake will make it hard for Link to predict when he is going to throw his nades. Link's bombs for the most part are much slower and more predictable than Snake's grenades and aren't as versatile. Snake will have an easier time killing Link with his projectiles (C4 for instance) than Link will have doing the same to Snake. The missile, though rarely used, cannot be stopped by any of Link's own projectiles (except maybe bombs? I don't remember. I haven't had a snake try to use a missile against me in a while). Link's arrows can be used to build some quick damage on Snake but overall they will only be a minor annoyance to him. I would say in terms of camping abilities Link and Snake are about even it really just depends on who plays smarter with their projectiles.
The real reason why I think Snake absolutely destroys Link is because of his close quarters game. If you fight Snake up close he will make quick work of you with his tilts. Down throw sets up great tech chases for Snake which can quickly rack up percent. As absurd as it may sound, Snake's fists do significantly more damage than Link's Master Sword. Link has zair for spacing but it won't keep you away from Snake's jab range forever. Snake also has jab to grab which can lead to nasty amounts of damage. Snake can spam f-tilt to get big damage on Link too. In terms of killing moves, Snake beats Link in this area too: Snake's up-tilt will kill Link sooner than any of Link's moves will kill Snake. Not to mention it is also is faster and more viable than any of Link's killing moves and it has broken good range.
One of Snakes greatest weaknesses is his aerial game. Unfortunately Link doesn't have many good moves that allow him to juggle Snake in the air and capitalize on this weakness. Link's up air is too slow and has too much landing lag to really punish Snake's aerial game when Link is below him. Up B can rack up some damage but ultimately does not hurt Snake much. Link can toss bombs at Snake when he is in the air but again this ultimately doesn't punish Snake at all.
Because of Snake's weight Link has a few combos on him namely jab cancel at mid to low percent and up tilt -> up tilt -> up smash at low percents. However considering Snake can do obscene amounts of damage to Link with his f-tilt or really any of his moves, this doesn't count for much.
Off stage Snake has a much better recovery than Link and has a significantly easier time gimping Link than Link has of gimping Snake. There really isn't much Link can do at all to edge guard Snake, perhaps bair if Snake is close enough to the edge but this won't really work if Snake recovers high.
A Snake with good DI can also live forever. Granted a Link with good DI can live forever too but considering both player's DI are equally good, the Snake will always outlast Link. Even though Link can kill Snake at earlier percents than most characters, Snake can still kill Link back even easier so there is no real advantage for Link. Add in the fact that if anyone is going to be gimped it's going to be Link and you can say with certainty that in most games its going to be Snake who is going to be the last one standing.
Snake can also out counter-pick Link with stages like Delfino and Castle Siege.
Ultimately is this match up impossible for Link? No it is not impossible. Is it even? Not really. When it comes down to it both Link and Snake have the potential to live to large percents and use their kill power to ko their opponent at low percents. It's simply that the Snake will have an easier time getting the Link to those kill percents and then killing Link than Link will have doing the same thing to Snake. Snake is just going to live longer and kill earlier. Even if their camping abilities are about even, Snake getting up in Link's face is just going to make the match-up hard for Link. The Link is simply going to have to work much harder than the Snake if he wants to win this match-up.
60:40 Snake's advantage
The thing is, if Snake plays this match-up like he is fighting a top tier character such as Metaknight, Marth, Diddy Kong, etc. you stand a better chance of winning. If he plays this match-up like he is a God-tier killing machine tank of a character vs. a crappy low tier all around inferior character with no good recovery who can't punish his aerial game and who he can blow away with his bare fists, well, then the match-up becomes a bit of an uphill battle.
In terms of projectiles, Snake has nades, the C4, landmine (though this isn't too much of a problem for Link), up smash, and the missile. To counter this Link has bombs, boomerang, and arrows. Gale boomerang can stop snakes nades but a good Snake will make it hard for Link to predict when he is going to throw his nades. Link's bombs for the most part are much slower and more predictable than Snake's grenades and aren't as versatile. Snake will have an easier time killing Link with his projectiles (C4 for instance) than Link will have doing the same to Snake. The missile, though rarely used, cannot be stopped by any of Link's own projectiles (except maybe bombs? I don't remember. I haven't had a snake try to use a missile against me in a while). Link's arrows can be used to build some quick damage on Snake but overall they will only be a minor annoyance to him. I would say in terms of camping abilities Link and Snake are about even it really just depends on who plays smarter with their projectiles.
The real reason why I think Snake absolutely destroys Link is because of his close quarters game. If you fight Snake up close he will make quick work of you with his tilts. Down throw sets up great tech chases for Snake which can quickly rack up percent. As absurd as it may sound, Snake's fists do significantly more damage than Link's Master Sword. Link has zair for spacing but it won't keep you away from Snake's jab range forever. Snake also has jab to grab which can lead to nasty amounts of damage. Snake can spam f-tilt to get big damage on Link too. In terms of killing moves, Snake beats Link in this area too: Snake's up-tilt will kill Link sooner than any of Link's moves will kill Snake. Not to mention it is also is faster and more viable than any of Link's killing moves and it has broken good range.
One of Snakes greatest weaknesses is his aerial game. Unfortunately Link doesn't have many good moves that allow him to juggle Snake in the air and capitalize on this weakness. Link's up air is too slow and has too much landing lag to really punish Snake's aerial game when Link is below him. Up B can rack up some damage but ultimately does not hurt Snake much. Link can toss bombs at Snake when he is in the air but again this ultimately doesn't punish Snake at all.
Because of Snake's weight Link has a few combos on him namely jab cancel at mid to low percent and up tilt -> up tilt -> up smash at low percents. However considering Snake can do obscene amounts of damage to Link with his f-tilt or really any of his moves, this doesn't count for much.
Off stage Snake has a much better recovery than Link and has a significantly easier time gimping Link than Link has of gimping Snake. There really isn't much Link can do at all to edge guard Snake, perhaps bair if Snake is close enough to the edge but this won't really work if Snake recovers high.
A Snake with good DI can also live forever. Granted a Link with good DI can live forever too but considering both player's DI are equally good, the Snake will always outlast Link. Even though Link can kill Snake at earlier percents than most characters, Snake can still kill Link back even easier so there is no real advantage for Link. Add in the fact that if anyone is going to be gimped it's going to be Link and you can say with certainty that in most games its going to be Snake who is going to be the last one standing.
Snake can also out counter-pick Link with stages like Delfino and Castle Siege.
Ultimately is this match up impossible for Link? No it is not impossible. Is it even? Not really. When it comes down to it both Link and Snake have the potential to live to large percents and use their kill power to ko their opponent at low percents. It's simply that the Snake will have an easier time getting the Link to those kill percents and then killing Link than Link will have doing the same thing to Snake. Snake is just going to live longer and kill earlier. Even if their camping abilities are about even, Snake getting up in Link's face is just going to make the match-up hard for Link. The Link is simply going to have to work much harder than the Snake if he wants to win this match-up.
60:40 Snake's advantage
Rizen
Smash Legend
The returning wind effect carries grenades away if they make it past Link's spamming.
Bombs go through Snake's missile like C Falcon's jabs.
_________________
Snake's broken disjointed reach really should be emphasized. Aside from Zair Snake reaches farther than Link.
Wind from the boomerang destroys Snake's downB mines and carries 'nades. Nair penetrates Snake's UpB missile.
Another reason why I think the Link-Snake matchup is 40:60 is just based on videos. I see many videos of the best Links in the world losing to Snakes that aren't even top 5 or so. I would think if the match-up was indeed near even this would be reflected better in that the best Links in the world would usually destroy Snakes that aren't on the same level as Ally, Razer, Fatal, etc.
Might not be a good reason for deciding a match-up ratio but just something I noticed.
Might not be a good reason for deciding a match-up ratio but just something I noticed.
Beat11
Smash Apprentice
Izaw has beaten the best snake in his region but this is irrelevant because he is extremely overrated. I've seen smasher (Japanese link) go toe to toe with who I am assuming to be one of the best japan snakes before. Awesome set BTW. I'm wearing a rubber to avoid flammage so I will just go ahead and say it, Deva SUCKS!!! Not because he is a bad player but because he is just so damn rusty. Seriously, where has this guy been? Legan is like the ONLY top pro link still putting work out there while the others has faded from existence.
Anyways, Snake vs Link has always been seen as a close to even matchup. Link slightly outcamps snake only because Snake's projectiles are passive and they don't explode in contact. Don't get wrong though, Snake can still camp link. It's just that he will fare a better chance going offensive. Link does not want Snake anywhere near him. When in CQC, Link will focus more on shield and defense options because his attacks are too slow to compensate. Dthrow techchasing is terrible for link because of his options. In contrast to your statement, Link actually can take advantage of Snake terrible airgame. Throwing bombs at Snake forces a reaction from him which link can punish. If he Airdodges, you can get a Dair read off it since Dair will outlast his airdodge. If he catches it with an aerial, a fastfall to Usmash can help. If he instathrows it back, you can either instathrow it back or use Uair to catch and hit him. Pivot grabbing his landings can also help pressure his landing well (seen Legan do it multiple amount of times). Snake tilts are disjointed and fast but not completely unpunishable. Link can usually shield grab or shieldjump Zair him depending on the amount of shield push. As for recovering, Fair is too slow to be of any worry. Link can usually hit him a spin attack before Snake can strike. Bair is much more threatening. Bair is powerful and quick and it also stagespikes. The good thing is that Snake will only do this somewhere near the ledge.
As for stages, I don't know any certain CPs against Snake but I think that Rainbow cruise and maybe battlefield will help. Brinstar will help tremedously.
Anyways, Snake vs Link has always been seen as a close to even matchup. Link slightly outcamps snake only because Snake's projectiles are passive and they don't explode in contact. Don't get wrong though, Snake can still camp link. It's just that he will fare a better chance going offensive. Link does not want Snake anywhere near him. When in CQC, Link will focus more on shield and defense options because his attacks are too slow to compensate. Dthrow techchasing is terrible for link because of his options. In contrast to your statement, Link actually can take advantage of Snake terrible airgame. Throwing bombs at Snake forces a reaction from him which link can punish. If he Airdodges, you can get a Dair read off it since Dair will outlast his airdodge. If he catches it with an aerial, a fastfall to Usmash can help. If he instathrows it back, you can either instathrow it back or use Uair to catch and hit him. Pivot grabbing his landings can also help pressure his landing well (seen Legan do it multiple amount of times). Snake tilts are disjointed and fast but not completely unpunishable. Link can usually shield grab or shieldjump Zair him depending on the amount of shield push. As for recovering, Fair is too slow to be of any worry. Link can usually hit him a spin attack before Snake can strike. Bair is much more threatening. Bair is powerful and quick and it also stagespikes. The good thing is that Snake will only do this somewhere near the ledge.
As for stages, I don't know any certain CPs against Snake but I think that Rainbow cruise and maybe battlefield will help. Brinstar will help tremedously.
Multiple ways Snake can get around these punishes. My point is that these aren't hard or reliable punishes.
This.
Those will help Snake not Link.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Uhhhh...because...uhhhhh...well....yeah....
I'll edit them in later today.
I'll edit them in later today.
AeroLink_the_SoulMaster
Let's rock, baby!
Where have you been? Legan has not been the only one. To my knowledge, I believe he has been in haitus with Link not too long ago. Kirinblaze is another Link player that has had some pretty impressive accomplishments as well. This past month, I've been the most active Link player attending a tournament every weekend. There are other Links out there, especially in EU, like Mr. R winning a low tier tourney with Link for example, so I don't know where you are getting the idea that Legan is the only one. lol
Oh, and as for Deva, yeah sure he's rusty, but I wanna say that era for era/prime for prime, Deva ('08) has accomplished the most with Link; it's just that the metagame has developed since then and players are better.
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
YEAAAAAAHHHHHH Deva!
I haven't seen many videos of Deva, and aside from this classic most of the ones I've seen were after Deva disappeared for a bit and "got rusty", but I know he's had great tourney results in the past, and even while rusty he still placed quite well at HOBO iirc.
Haven't seen much of Kirin's Link either recently. Although I seem to remember him placing well in a pretty big tourney going Mario/Link recently.
edit:
WUT. WHAT IS THIS ALSM?!ALSM said:
Legan's on hiatus with Link? I thought he was trying to do some work with his Link recently?
Scabe
Successful Businessman
He did way better than I did against M2K 
It took me 3 games just to take one stock ;_;
It took me 3 games just to take one stock ;_;
AeroLink_the_SoulMaster
Let's rock, baby!
Recently, yes. I was saying he was on haitus with Link. As for recent vids since HOBO 30, I did save my games; it's up to the person who owns the setup to upload them... but I also have replays saved on my sd card that I haven't taken the time to upload. I have low tier doubles with a good Yoshi and a few friendlies if you want to see those.
Also. It is... what it is. I've been playing around with Tink for a bit; he's pretty fun and I can apply certain aspects of that character to Link. It works.
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
Ah, ok. I knew Legan had kinda had a quiet spell and was playing I think ZSS and Marth a bit, but thought he was gearing up to start repping Link pretty hard. Haha, yeah, I'd love to watch your replays when you get them uploaded. You're too good man. That Yoshi wouldn't happen to be Polt would it? :D
And ah well about Tink, haha. I still take great pride in my complete and utter inability to play him at all :D
AeroLink_the_SoulMaster
Let's rock, baby!
That yoshi was rel12; I think he does wifi. Yoshi is really good partner for Link in low tiers. =)
Lol, I know how the Link community condemns the use of Toon Link lol, but really, you can take away from what Toon Link does and apply it for Link. The thing you have to get used to is attack reach and aerial control (the fact that he's light, floaty, and pretty mobile in the air, while Link is heavy, a fastfaller, and hardly mobile in the air). When you get used to that, the rest is similar between the two.
Lol, I know how the Link community condemns the use of Toon Link lol, but really, you can take away from what Toon Link does and apply it for Link. The thing you have to get used to is attack reach and aerial control (the fact that he's light, floaty, and pretty mobile in the air, while Link is heavy, a fastfaller, and hardly mobile in the air). When you get used to that, the rest is similar between the two.
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
Haha, that's my problem with him. I know Link well enough I don't bother focusing on what I'm doing (if that makes sense, haha), and Tink is similar enough to Link that I subconsciously treat him as identical to Link, so I space my attacks too far away, mess up autocanceling/general timing of fastfalls, and mess up my dairs all the time because they're stall and falls, haha. Sorta like how I like using Ness and Wolf, so my Lucas and Fox are absolutely horrible, haha.
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
I got 4th in the only LT tournament I've ever entered with Link. AeroLink can vouch. He's my "secondary", as in I play him the 2nd most 
I actually won a few games at a recent tournament I got 2nd at with Link before I had to play Joker/Trent/Wario. I've been thinking about CPing Joker's Snake with Link (the only guy who beat me), so this thread is of interest for me.
Subscribed.
I actually won a few games at a recent tournament I got 2nd at with Link before I had to play Joker/Trent/Wario. I've been thinking about CPing Joker's Snake with Link (the only guy who beat me), so this thread is of interest for me.Subscribed.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I'll get to work on summaries.
Next MU as well, focus on one you disagree with, those need the most touching up on.
Next MU as well, focus on one you disagree with, those need the most touching up on.
AeroLink_the_SoulMaster
Let's rock, baby!
Yeah, Link taking that top 3 and 4 spot in that low tier tourney. If anything, low tiers is where Link can really shine. If we have more Links placing top 3 or so, players might start to pick him up more. I see a lot of Yoshi, Jiggs, Samus, Lucas, and Mario in LT tourneys and I want to change that with more Link in the mix. =)
Edit - Let's move on to DK.
Edit - Let's move on to DK.
IYM!
Smash Lord
i stiil in disagree with Snake ratio, 60/40 is to much adventage for him.
oh well, is just me
oh well, is just me
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
I'd be fine with DK. Personally, I think 60-40 is a little too generous, but I can understand the argument.
I think at some point we need to redo Falco for srs. I think 30-70 is too generous, haha.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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All fine ideas.
Let's do DK, thread will be up later.
Let's do DK, thread will be up later.
yeah for real. Falco is like 0-100 (0_0). nah to be serious it's maybe not that bad buts it's something ridiculous like 20-80.
I also think Marth's ratio is being too generous to Link. Its like 40:60 or 35:65 depending on the stage.
Don't know anything about DK though. Never really fought a good DK.
i dont think DK is that bad. I use to play a pretty good Dk on occasion. The matches were always really close. The only reason i ever lost was because of my inability to deal with a fully charged DK Punch. Its so broken it even hits from behind. Either way the worst thing DK can do to link is Bair and Long range smashes. Waiting patiently in your shield for shield grabs off his his Bair really prevents its approach. The smashes are pretty deadly but with Link being able to space pretty well against someone as Bulky as DK it isnt so bad. Just stay away from the edges or he can and will grab and throw you into the stage, though if you just tech it, it wont be a problem.
Oh and also the super armor is rather irritating on his Up special and his Dk punch.
I can probably help alot in this match up when the thread goes up.
Oh and also the super armor is rather irritating on his Up special and his Dk punch.
I can probably help alot in this match up when the thread goes up.
Beat11
Smash Apprentice
DK has always been a toe to toe fight for Link.
Plus, am I the only one here who is starting to see how ****ing pointless these ratios are getting and how they are completely blinding people from point of the matchup discussion or is someone with me? Matchup discussion are supposed to tell you how to play against a certain character not tell you some dumb ratios and why the matchup is bad and just say you lose like autorape or something. That kinds what most people (myself included) have been doing throughout all of our latest matchup discussions. We should just focus on details on all of our matchs instead of the freaking number because the more brawl's metagame advances, the more useless ratios become. Thats just something I wanted to point out before we start the next one.
BTW, my bad ALSM for not mentioning you for putting up some work!!! I have seen your AWESOME videos and I was impressed by them all. I did, however, think you could have did better against MikeHaze. You should have used bombs better by Uthrowing and Zdropping with Zair instead of constantly throwing them directly at him. You seemed nervous and impatient also but nojohns!
Plus, am I the only one here who is starting to see how ****ing pointless these ratios are getting and how they are completely blinding people from point of the matchup discussion or is someone with me? Matchup discussion are supposed to tell you how to play against a certain character not tell you some dumb ratios and why the matchup is bad and just say you lose like autorape or something. That kinds what most people (myself included) have been doing throughout all of our latest matchup discussions. We should just focus on details on all of our matchs instead of the freaking number because the more brawl's metagame advances, the more useless ratios become. Thats just something I wanted to point out before we start the next one.
BTW, my bad ALSM for not mentioning you for putting up some work!!! I have seen your AWESOME videos and I was impressed by them all. I did, however, think you could have did better against MikeHaze. You should have used bombs better by Uthrowing and Zdropping with Zair instead of constantly throwing them directly at him. You seemed nervous and impatient also but nojohns!
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
We have the discussion and then Ryu writes up a MU export that has all the details about that inside it. He just hasn't done any recently, haha.
DK is nasty because of his range and his ability to kill us so quickly. Jab locks are extremely dangerous because if you try to jab lock with boomerang, if it doesn't work, he's going to crush you during the lag (plus he has long enough gorilla arms that you're kinda inside his murder zone already if you try it). We can pressure him with zair and projectiles, but DK is pretty quick and can get around them better than you'd expect (plus he's got lots of super armor) so your projectile game needs to be spot on, and don't let up. His f and dtilt are long range and quick, which makes spacing very difficult. You need to just be patient; Link shouldn't be fishing for kills anyway, but you need to just kinda keep piling on damage until he's up there since DK is so heavy and hard to kill. He might be making it close to 200% pretty consistently if he has good DI. He doesn't need to spike you into the stage to kill you early with his cargo hold throw; after about 100% he can auto-kill you just like Ike by dthrowing you out of cargo hold offstage and floating with his UpB to intercept your jump, which you HAVE to use to get enough height to make it back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKchYwshwbk&t=1m7s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-k5HaGrWv8&t=2m57s
^Cargo hold vids.
It's not an auto-lose by any means, but it's tough. You have to be very precise and have little margin for error since a small mistake gets you punished really hard. I'd say 35-65, although I can see an argument for 40-60. I'd call it -2 on the new scale they're using. It's not much better than that though, in my opinion.
DK is nasty because of his range and his ability to kill us so quickly. Jab locks are extremely dangerous because if you try to jab lock with boomerang, if it doesn't work, he's going to crush you during the lag (plus he has long enough gorilla arms that you're kinda inside his murder zone already if you try it). We can pressure him with zair and projectiles, but DK is pretty quick and can get around them better than you'd expect (plus he's got lots of super armor) so your projectile game needs to be spot on, and don't let up. His f and dtilt are long range and quick, which makes spacing very difficult. You need to just be patient; Link shouldn't be fishing for kills anyway, but you need to just kinda keep piling on damage until he's up there since DK is so heavy and hard to kill. He might be making it close to 200% pretty consistently if he has good DI. He doesn't need to spike you into the stage to kill you early with his cargo hold throw; after about 100% he can auto-kill you just like Ike by dthrowing you out of cargo hold offstage and floating with his UpB to intercept your jump, which you HAVE to use to get enough height to make it back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKchYwshwbk&t=1m7s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-k5HaGrWv8&t=2m57s
^Cargo hold vids.
It's not an auto-lose by any means, but it's tough. You have to be very precise and have little margin for error since a small mistake gets you punished really hard. I'd say 35-65, although I can see an argument for 40-60. I'd call it -2 on the new scale they're using. It's not much better than that though, in my opinion.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I'm surprised people are well versed in DK here. He's not that common, only reason I kinda know it is because of Ook.
Beat11
Smash Apprentice
No, i wasn't saying DK is hard at all. I was talking about all of our matchups in general. Many of the people that come to our boards to discuss usually tell us how we lose to everyone because of factor A and B. They never say what we can do against the other characters. I just wanted to make that clear.
Apparently there is always one good DK in every group. lol.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
AeroLink_the_SoulMaster
Let's rock, baby!
^ That footstooling is lulz. lol
@Beat11: Sooooo many rolls, spot-dodging; I was nervous, but no johns indeed! Thanks for the compliments. ^_^
Now on to the DK discussion: I want to be honest, I don't think DK beats Link that bad with 60-40, it's more even imo. Let me explain.
First off I want to say is that you need to camp hard against DK; I mean camp HARD; this is going to cause lots of trouble for DK. This is when you need to utilize your projectiles to the fullest; I'm talking about using lots of bombs and abusing zair as a spacing tool. Mix in projectile switching (chaining one projectile after another), for example, by zairing with a bomb in hand, and then you can choose to throw the bomb afterwards or using another projectile. Try to stay grounded for the most part, and spot dodge is so good, because you want to avoid getting grabbed. If you can avoid getting grabbed, you're already putting up a good fight against him. You do not want to be upclose with DK at all, and if you happen to get in that situation, retreating nair/fair/zair are good moves to choose. If you catch DK in mid %'s with your jabs, you can jab cancel jab, and follow up with a grab.
Yes, DK can gimp and kill Link early, but how is he going to do that when you don't give him the opportunity to do so? Link has the tools to avoid these situations. Another thing, if you are on the ledge, be super patient. If you have to stay and plank the ledge, by all means do so, until he makes an attempt to intercept your planking or until you can safely get back on the stage. I remember playing Bigfoot in tourney, I was at the ledge on Lylat and he was charging fsmashes, trying to bait me to get back. I just pulled bombs as I let go of the edge, and threw them at him. One ledge trick I do that's pretty safe, is zair regrab the ledge (once if I tether the ledge, at least twice if I'm already on the ledge) for invincibility frames when I ledge-hop air-dodge -> buffer to whatever move (spot dodge, roll, uptilt, jab, ftilt, grab, nair, etc.) is appropriate to the situation.
Moves you need to watch out for the most: Bair, his super armor punch, his upb, and his grab attempts. Keep these moves in your head and visualize when the DK player would choose to do these moves as you are camping, running, and spacing.
As for choosing stages, I say it's all on your preference; which stages you are most comfortable with and which stages you can run/camp better. I personally like flat stages like Final Destination, so I usually strike Battlefield and Pokemon Stadium 1 for starter stages. Ban Frigate Orpheon (gimp city), and counterpick with a neutral you're comfortable with; don't go for a counter stage. Also beware of pocket characters that can destroy Link if you think about counterpicking to Final Destination.
Do not ever try to chase DK offstage, the most you can do edgeguard-wise is add damage with projectiles, or edge/zedge him.
Another thing, you want to keep the lead on DK the whole game, so that he will have to keep approaching you.
In my experience, I've beaten DK players in tourney; the most notable I've played and beaten so far is Bigfoot. I know Kirinblaze has beaten Will before as well. Legan vs. Ripple (friendlies) is an example of not camping (using projectiles) enough.
Overall, this matchup is a -1 for Link, or 55:45 DK's favor imo.
@Beat11: Sooooo many rolls, spot-dodging; I was nervous, but no johns indeed! Thanks for the compliments. ^_^
Now on to the DK discussion: I want to be honest, I don't think DK beats Link that bad with 60-40, it's more even imo. Let me explain.
First off I want to say is that you need to camp hard against DK; I mean camp HARD; this is going to cause lots of trouble for DK. This is when you need to utilize your projectiles to the fullest; I'm talking about using lots of bombs and abusing zair as a spacing tool. Mix in projectile switching (chaining one projectile after another), for example, by zairing with a bomb in hand, and then you can choose to throw the bomb afterwards or using another projectile. Try to stay grounded for the most part, and spot dodge is so good, because you want to avoid getting grabbed. If you can avoid getting grabbed, you're already putting up a good fight against him. You do not want to be upclose with DK at all, and if you happen to get in that situation, retreating nair/fair/zair are good moves to choose. If you catch DK in mid %'s with your jabs, you can jab cancel jab, and follow up with a grab.
Yes, DK can gimp and kill Link early, but how is he going to do that when you don't give him the opportunity to do so? Link has the tools to avoid these situations. Another thing, if you are on the ledge, be super patient. If you have to stay and plank the ledge, by all means do so, until he makes an attempt to intercept your planking or until you can safely get back on the stage. I remember playing Bigfoot in tourney, I was at the ledge on Lylat and he was charging fsmashes, trying to bait me to get back. I just pulled bombs as I let go of the edge, and threw them at him. One ledge trick I do that's pretty safe, is zair regrab the ledge (once if I tether the ledge, at least twice if I'm already on the ledge) for invincibility frames when I ledge-hop air-dodge -> buffer to whatever move (spot dodge, roll, uptilt, jab, ftilt, grab, nair, etc.) is appropriate to the situation.
Moves you need to watch out for the most: Bair, his super armor punch, his upb, and his grab attempts. Keep these moves in your head and visualize when the DK player would choose to do these moves as you are camping, running, and spacing.
As for choosing stages, I say it's all on your preference; which stages you are most comfortable with and which stages you can run/camp better. I personally like flat stages like Final Destination, so I usually strike Battlefield and Pokemon Stadium 1 for starter stages. Ban Frigate Orpheon (gimp city), and counterpick with a neutral you're comfortable with; don't go for a counter stage. Also beware of pocket characters that can destroy Link if you think about counterpicking to Final Destination.
Do not ever try to chase DK offstage, the most you can do edgeguard-wise is add damage with projectiles, or edge/zedge him.
Another thing, you want to keep the lead on DK the whole game, so that he will have to keep approaching you.
In my experience, I've beaten DK players in tourney; the most notable I've played and beaten so far is Bigfoot. I know Kirinblaze has beaten Will before as well. Legan vs. Ripple (friendlies) is an example of not camping (using projectiles) enough.
Overall, this matchup is a -1 for Link, or 55:45 DK's favor imo.
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
Haha, maybe I just suck at the DK matchup. I've played it a decent bit but not a ton. I think I get sloppy and leave openings since spacing is pickier and DK can punish it well.
I do agree with much of what ALSM's saying. Camp hard. Don't get in close because he'll murder you. Don't get grabbed. Be careful with your offstage game in general (both when you and when he are offstage).
Also, interesting concept about CPing FD; personally I prefer using platforms with Link anyway (I love Smashville and BF), but I've been considering using a pocket Diddy against Link's really hard matchups, like MK, Falco, and Sheik. That'd probably be pretty useful for me; if they try to CP against me for picking that level I can use Diddy who's supposed to be really good on FD with his bonanaz (Falco'd still kinda worry me though).
I do agree with much of what ALSM's saying. Camp hard. Don't get in close because he'll murder you. Don't get grabbed. Be careful with your offstage game in general (both when you and when he are offstage).
Also, interesting concept about CPing FD; personally I prefer using platforms with Link anyway (I love Smashville and BF), but I've been considering using a pocket Diddy against Link's really hard matchups, like MK, Falco, and Sheik. That'd probably be pretty useful for me; if they try to CP against me for picking that level I can use Diddy who's supposed to be really good on FD with his bonanaz (Falco'd still kinda worry me though).
Beat11
Smash Apprentice
Another thing to note is the SA frames on DK's upB and sideB. Smart DKs will use them to break through your projectiles and hit you when they are close enough, mainly Zairs. You can still avoid these with perfect spacing but you must be extra careful how you place your projectiles.
Cargo spikes won't be used to were you can reliably footstool them or tech it. Most DKs should prefer to throw you under the stage rather than against it to put you in a harder position to recover.
Cargo spikes won't be used to were you can reliably footstool them or tech it. Most DKs should prefer to throw you under the stage rather than against it to put you in a harder position to recover.
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
Someone be trollin'. Looks like they got busted for it too.
I'd say 75-25 or so (basically in that "beyond 70-30" range so it kinda doesn't matter what ratio you give it, it's basically unwinnable). It's bad. MK gimps Link way too easily and is too fast to handle.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I think MK is Link's worst MU.
Riot
Smash Rookie
IMO Link's worst MU is anyone that has a reflector and knows how to use the stupid thing. It eliminates a lot of what he can do (unless you can place bomb throws well) can gimp you or just play with your mind.
(i usually just lurk on these forums..... i almost didnt post xP)
(i usually just lurk on these forums..... i almost didnt post xP)
I think Falco might actually be even worse honestly...