Triforce of Courage: Link's Match-Up Thread!

[zeldasmash]

sorry i repeated the message.

 

[Huggles828]

Yeah, I got rid of all that text. I might make a little slide for each of the three later. It just felt so crowded that it hard to even read.

 

[zeldasmash]

Oh. All right, ok

 

[Rizen]

For Falco and many high tiers it depends on the stage. Falco on: BF 60/40 Falco, FD 90/10 Falco.
Good Snakes know how to approach and out-class Link because Snake is basically a better Link. Not an even MU, I'd say 60/40.
Most of the MUs on post 37 I'd make about 5 points worse. 5/5>45/55 opponent. In general.

 

[IYM!]

Here is my opinion (i know im gonna get criticized for this)

50:50
45:55
45:55
45:55
40:60
45:55/50:50
40:60
55:45

i am in disagree with those ones

Snake have a adventage agains us, his recovery and kill power are better, but we can kill him fairly early (at least erlier than anothers characters) and live for too long, as a personal opinion i have fought agains many Snakes, so i gonna say 55/45

Diddy, is too fast with his bananas, i would say 60/40, but atleast link have more projectiles options

Marth is fast, and have a ridiculous kill power with his tip, maybe our projectiles can keep it away, but no for too long 60/40

Iceclimbers, this is a MU that will put your spaming skill to the limit, you must avoid get grabed to all cost (less lossing a stock of course), 60 40

is too dificult hit Olimar he is small, making dificult use our Zair, and his spaming is simply better 65/35

Peach is dificult when she know how to use her vegetables,an we avet have the kill power adventage, her Usmash can kill link so erlier 60/40

Wolf is fast, link is slow, wolf have a fast laser, link have a slow starting spaming, Wolf have a reflector, we havent a reflector. This MU is so delicated, we have to avoid the DSmash. the only real adventage are his rigid UpB, we can edguarding him pretty easy 65/35

Samus is 55/45 in her favor, her Zair out camp our Zair, her spaming is faster and have an exelent recovery. The 2 first points are the main reason for her adventage. Link have power, range and bigger hitboxes, but Samus is a pain when we are out stage


About DeDeDe, i am in agree with you, is easy out camp him, and our Nair **** him.



Y bienvenido a Smassh World forums (SWF), espero que aprendas mucho y te diviertas

 

[zeldasmash]

How do you do charts like these anyway?

 

[zeldasmash]

S
30:70
A
50:50
42.58
30:70
45:55
42.48
45:55
B
35:65
40:60
40:60
40:60
40:60
40:60
C
48:52
35:65
35:65
40:60
40:60
45:55 (Link can survive longer due to his momentum cancel and the fact he can kill earlier [despite Peach's USmash])
45:55
D
42.58
35:65
50:50
45:55
35:65
50:50
45:55 40:60 60:40 60:40
E
42.58
50:50
40:60
55:45
F
52.48
50:50
55:45
50:50
G
65:35

 

[Ryos4]

Uhh to make a chart im pretty sure you just need something like photoshop. Something with multiple layers. And i guess only other thing you need is some good pics, patience, and maybe a little skill.

 

[zeldasmash]

This is just an opinion this is not the official chart

 

[zeldasmash]

Uhh to make a chart im pretty sure you just need something like photoshop. Something with multiple layers. And i guess only other thing you need is some good pics, patience, and maybe a little skill.

Can you make this into a chart? If you can please do it i don't mind.

 

[Ryos4]

Whats wrong with the one on the first page? This forum just started re-discussions, so its kinda pointless to start a new one.

 

[zeldasmash]

No, i'm not saying that. I'm saying if you can make this into a chart (like the one from the first page) for ME. Not for the official chart.

 

[Huggles828]

Uhh to make a chart im pretty sure you just need something like photoshop. Something with multiple layers.

MSPaint. YEAAAAHHHHHHHH

Although for Christmas I got Corel and it's like a million times better than Paint (granted, an uncrumpled napkin and a dried out highlighter are better than MSPaint, haha).

Zeldasmash, you can make one yourself if you want, although it takes a good bit of time to make a chart (that one's pretty simple and it took me a few hours to get it initially set up and all the files and templates and stuff I use). Most people don't make a chart for themselves though; it's just too much work for a personal thing that is likely to change a good bit. Boards usually have one because it makes it easier for everyone to visualize, not just a single individual.

Sheik next?

 

[Rizen]

wifi ratio list

I'm borrowing Zeldasmash's format to make a wifi ratio list. And writing a shot explanation of the wifi difference. Please add your comments but this is my list not a debate list. Blanks I don't have enough offline or wifi exp to judge the difference.
S
32:68 Dair and projectiles connect more easily.
A
40:60 Snake out-classes Link and is harder to DI.
42:58 Link's great with items, has a good dash attack, and bombs overpower bananas.
34:66 Lag helps Link and hurts Falco.
38:62 Harder to DI. Wario punishes much better than Link.
45:55 Link playing defensive can be very hard to approach. Shielding's harder. Small stages are a worse ratio for Link.
38:62 CG's are escapable sometimes because lag (mash jump>bomb pull). Projectiles are better.
B
39:61 More confusion gives Link openings.
40:60 CG's are escapable sometimes because lag. Pika has less precision and both characters can use their long-lasting attacks with the lag.
38:62 CG's are escapable sometimes because lag (hold shield and mash down to spotdodge). Blimps are easy targets.
42:58 Link gets a small projectile boost and shield pressure is less important.
40:60 Both characters' strengths are buffed and weaknesses made worse.
37:63 She's fast, addaptable and that whip is murder in lag.
C
43:57 Link's off stage game is riskier and dodging is more important.
32:68 Kirby can exploit Link's easy combo trait and recovery. Link's easy to put in a bad position.
39:61 Worse precision.
50:50 I think the lag and worse shielding makes this MU even.
36:64 Light arrow spam.
42:58 boosted projectile spam, harder to counter Link.
40:60 boosted projectile spam, harder to counter Link, worse shielding.
D
40:60 usual lag stuff, nothing too special.
41:59 Link has an easier time playing defensively. Wolf can't punish as well and is easier to predict.
40:60 All Sonic's move look similar and Link's too slow to react on time.
36:64 Attacks>jab is very effective for Ike. Link can't rely on shielding and quick action.
43:57 Link's defensive game's better and DIing Sheik is basically like offline.
40:60 Ness is harder to space and has more effective PK fire/thunder.
45:55 swapping pokemon is harder to precisely punish.
40:60 Squirtle's easier to hit with wide attacks and moving camp.
60:40 Not much to say, both characters can land powerful attacks with less risk.
45:55 Harder to shield spam/Zair. Charazard's a big target.
E
42:58 Egg spam is improved beats Link's spam. Planking's harder to deal with. Yosh's air game gets a slight boost.
42:58 Lucas' big moves like Usmash are slow enough to avoid/shield. Spacing is slightly easier because Link's better projectiles.
40:60
55:45
F
49:51 Link can be more defensive, C Falcon can be more aggressive and combo safely.
45:55
45:55
42:58 Zelda punishes well and is harder to space and punish.
G
57:43 Ganondorf punishes well and is harder to space and punish.

 

[zeldasmash]

Yeah, Sheik next. If the discussion is open, link me.

 

[zeldasmash]

How come Ike's matchup is so dang poor?

 

[zeldasmash]

Is the re-discussion open? I want to see the re-discussion.

 

[Huggles828]

Ike is amazing in wifi. He's a LOT better when you have lag, making it harder to read and react to his powerful moves. Sonic is also better for a similar reason I think (instead of having raw strength that's hard to dodge he has combos and attacks you can't react to).

Dem's some precise numbers, Rizen. 39:61?

Personally, I think Wario is much easier on wifi. No matter how you slice it Wario will have to get in to attack Link. Link can make it frustrating on Wario offline; when he can't reliably PS anything and projectiles become significantly harder to get around in general I think it's a huge advantage for Link.

I don't play a whole lot on wifi so I don't know about most other MU's though, haha.

 

[Ryos4]

Yeah i think people who are either really strong+range or really fast get a boost online. In general i think it would be easier for Link, as projectiles are harder to deal with and its harder to juggle online which is one of Links major weaknesses.

Idk for me in general, i find i do better online due to my play style. I tend to think ahead when i play rather then react, while most people just play by reacting. All i have to do is get use to the button delay (if it isnt too sever) and i'm fairly comfortable. I just predict where my attack will send them and just hope things go according to plan. It just feels like brawls game mechanics were specifically designed for me.

I remember when i played huggles last time. He was like "why are you so good in this button lag?" lol.

Also zeldasmash, use the edit button. Nuff triple posting. And Mario's fireball approach is evil online with lag. It moves slow enough that its hard to spot dodge correctly, you can shield it but it leaves you open to grabs and what not. I found approaching with fireball and Nair at the same time works really well as you can also mix it up with grabs. If they spot dodge he fireball they get hit by weak Nair and can combo into jabs. If they get hit by the fireballs they get Nair to the face. If they constantly shield they get grabbed. I cant imagine link would have an easy time against that.

 

[Huggles828]

I remember when i played huggles last time. He was like "why are you so good in this button lag?" lol.

On wifi, Mario's SH fireball = most difficult AT known to man, haha.

 

[Black Mantis]

The Link vs Snake matchup is 50-50 right?

 

[Ryos4]

IDK i would have to give snake at least some advantage. Snake can kill a bit easier and has better momentum canceling as well as better recovery.

 

[LordXav1er]

Its one of the best if not the best high tier for Link to face. Don't think its 50-50 tho exspecailly when we are talking about counter picks...

 

[Rizen]

Snake out-classes Link. 6/4 Snake.

 

[Ryos4]

i dont think its that bad for Link. Yes Snake is awesome, fast and strong tilts and what not. But, Link can shut down Snakes grenade play pretty effectively and destroy snakes traps that he has set up. Snake also isn't one to really juggle opponents, which is one of Links main weaknesses. And most Snake style edge guards are meant to kill rather then gimp, which could potentially help Link recover.

Based on the other 60/40 match ups on the chart. I cant imagine Snake being as hard as Marth, Wario, Luigi, ect.

Also not to complain or anything, is someone linking up the exports?

 

[LordXav1er]

Yeah I believe its closer then Wario any day

 

[Rizen]

Snake's harder on wifi, offline it's probably 55/45 Snake. That's the ratio I'd give the Marth MU too; it's almost a pure defense vs offense spacing battle. Wario is harder, at least 65/35 his favor.
That chart is out dated, it says Zelda has a 60-40 favor and ROB wins 70/30.

 

[Ryos4]

Why would snake be harder on wifi? All you really have to worry about is his tilts on wifi. All of his traps and stuff take alot more effort on wifi, which would lead me to believe that wifi limits snake. If all snake really works with is jabs and tilts, his kill moves are going to be seriously stale. Link on the other had gets a pretty big boost on wifi. All of his projectiles are harder to defend against, and based on my experience, button lag doesn't really affect projectile traps for Link. Zair is harder to punish online, and with Snake being as tall as he is, Zair can and will own him. If Snake crawls hes limited to Dtilt, and thats not something you want to rely on.

The only reason Snake would ever be harder online is if you don't know how to deal with his Tilts. Since Link can easily avoid his tilts by playing a moving camp and snake not being very good at approaching, Link should at the very least be even with Snake, if not have the advantage online.

 

[Rizen]

Why would snake be harder on wifi? All you really have to worry about is his tilts on wifi. All of his traps and stuff take alot more effort on wifi, which would lead me to believe that wifi limits snake.

Link can deal with his traps either way but Snake's Ftilts, Utilt, jabs, Nair, grabs, teck chasing, and DAC are all harder to shield/DI/punish and Link can be approached. Link's close game takes a hit, besides grabs, and Snake's gets a boost. Snake won't want to camp or trap Link as much as approach and force him offstage. Also, crawling can go to shielding.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sound like Snake might be good for the next one.

Any objections?

 

[Huggles828]

That's who I was thinking we should do next.

 

[X3DS]

Snake out-classes Link. 6/4 Snake.

Yeah. 60:40 at best. There is no way Snake vs. Link is even.

Snake deals more damage than Link, has a better recovery, lives longer, has a better killing move (the up tilt), has better projectiles, has a better tech chase, and can gimp Link with his fair (though the setup is a bit tricky).

Snakes grenades are much better projectiles than Link's bombs or his arrows. Link's gale boomerang can stop nades that is true, but Snake can be tricky with them and use them in a way that makes it hard for Link to predict and shut them down with his boomerang. Nades are both faster and more unpredictable than Link's bombs.

Link may be able to kill Snake earlier than most characters but keep in mind that Snake can kill Link back fairly easily too with up tilt which is a faster and more effective killing move than anything Link has.

Only thing that Link really has against Snake is that because of Snakes weight he can be juggled a bit at low percents.

Link vs. Marth is not anywhere near even. 40:60 at the VERY best. Personally I say 35:65. If Link goes off the stage at any time vs. Marth there is a good chance that he isn't coming back. Marth can gimp Link at very early percents and because Link's recovery is so predictable it is very easy for Marth to dair spike Link if he tries to use his up-B to recovery. Because Marth has such a fast running speed it is easy for him to decrease the distance between him and Link which takes away from Link's ability to camp him (Link's projectiles being slow also doesn't help). Because a lot of Link's moves are so slow and predictable Marth can use his counter a lot to make things hard for Link. Marth's up smash completely beats out Link's dair (one of his best killing moves) and since dair is a very predictable it is easy for Marth to see it coming and up smash it. The only way that dair can really do anything to Marth if it is thrown out when Marth is in the air. On top of that Marth's tipper Forward Smash is a very powerful move that Marth can use to kill Link or punish. But yeah pretty much the biggest thing with Marth is that if he takes Link off stage he can just use a couple of fairs and Link is pretty much gone.

 

[X3DS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wwWeKnNqhY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9RCECloUzQ&feature=related

this is why Link vs. Marth isn't anywhere near even. Easy edge guards and edge hogs. Counter and dair can be used on Link's up B recovery to completely screw him up. Yeah this matchup is like 35:65.

 

[Rizen]

Snakes grenades are much better projectiles than Link's bombs or his arrows. Link's gale boomerang can stop nades that is true, but Snake can be tricky with them and use them in a way that makes it hard for Link to predict and shut them down with his boomerang. Nades are both faster and more unpredictable than Link's bombs.

Only thing that Link really has against Snake is that because of Snakes weight he can be juggled a bit at low percents.

Link can out-camp Snake by SHing his boomerang and arrows. It's Snake's up close fighting that destroys Link. Aside from camping Snake basically just out-classes Link, like you said. Bombs are more versatile than grenades but not as useful for the snake MU.

Link vs. Marth is not anywhere near even. 40:60 at the VERY best. Personally I say 35:65. If Link goes off the stage at any time vs. Marth there is a good chance that he isn't coming back. Marth can gimp Link at very early percents and because Link's recovery is so predictable it is very easy for Marth to dair spike Link if he tries to use his up-B to recovery. Because Marth has such a fast running speed it is easy for him to decrease the distance between him and Link which takes away from Link's ability to camp him (Link's projectiles being slow also doesn't help). Because a lot of Link's moves are so slow and predictable Marth can use his counter a lot to make things hard for Link. Marth's up smash completely beats out Link's dair (one of his best killing moves) and since dair is a very predictable it is easy for Marth to see it coming and up smash it. The only way that dair can really do anything to Marth if it is thrown out when Marth is in the air. On top of that Marth's tipper Forward Smash is a very powerful move that Marth can use to kill Link or punish. But yeah pretty much the biggest thing with Marth is that if he takes Link off stage he can just use a couple of fairs and Link is pretty much gone.

Any character can gimp Link offstage. Marth must approach and play offense. Link's not about camping to keep away opponents, he's about spacing. Link can attack where Marth needs to go before attacking so the fight is basically Link being passive vs Marth being aggressive. Link has several KO setups Marth must get around and should never use Dair except to intercept or punish. Link just can't match Marth in strait-forward combat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wwWeKnNqhY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9RCECloUzQ&feature=related

this is why Link vs. Marth isn't anywhere near even. Easy edge guards and edge hogs. Counter and dair can be used on Link's up B recovery to completely screw him up. Yeah this matchup is like 35:65.

The Ganon/Link MU has easy edge guards and edge hogs vs Link too. It's pretty much a constant factor in why Link sucks.
To be fair, you picked 2 matches where ALSM makes several mistakes and focus on those. ALSM's not playing his best and Haze is a great player. Contrary, when Link has momentum a match can look like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f0e-Wm4j1A
It's wifi, but Kirinblaze says the MU's 55/45 Marth and I agree.

 

[X3DS]

Link can out-camp Snake by SHing his boomerang and arrows. It's Snake's up close fighting that destroys Link. Aside from camping Snake basically just out-classes Link, like you said. Bombs are more versatile than grenades but not as useful for the snake MU.

Hmm I wouldn't say Link out-camps Snake. At best their camping abilities are even. As someone who uses both Snake and Link I can say that Snake's grenade is definitely better than Link's bombs. Much less predictable since they don't detonate upon impact and there are simply more things you can do with them than what Link can do with a bomb. They are also much faster to use and combined with Snake's C4 and land mine Snake has much better projectiles than Link. Gale boomerang is very situational and yes SHing does help but Snake can still beat Link from afar if he uses his projectiles cleverly. And yes like you said Snake destroys Link up close so even if their camping abilities were indeed even or slightly in Link's favor (I say they are at best even at camping), Snakes better cqc, recovery, percents that he can live to, and power all seem to make this match-up around 40:60 in my opinion.

Any character can gimp Link offstage. Marth must approach and play offense. Link's not about camping to keep away opponents, he's about spacing. Link can attack where Marth needs to go before attacking so the fight is basically Link being passive vs Marth being aggressive. Link has several KO setups Marth must get around and should never use Dair except to intercept or punish. Link just can't match Marth in strait-forward combat.

Yes I agree. Link is about spacing but Marth's agility allows him to weave in and out of Link's projectiles fairly easily and control the distance between them. Zair helps Link a bit but Marth will usually still be in control most of the time. And yes it is true that any character can gimp Link but Marth can do so very very easily. If Marth takes Link off stage he can do two fairs, up B to grab the edge then counter or dair Link when he tries to recover to the edge. It is very easy to do and can kill Link's momentum which is very important for Link in this match-up. Even if Link can rack up damage on Marth on stage as soon as he goes off stage Marth can fair or bair and Link is going to have a very hard time recovering.

The Ganon/Link MU has easy edge guards and edge hogs vs Link too. It's pretty much a constant factor in why Link sucks.

Yeah I agree. Ganon does destroy Link off stage as well but in the case of Ganon, Link has a relatively big advantage on stage. Not so with Marth.

To be fair, you picked 2 matches where ALSM makes several mistakes and focus on those. ALSM's not playing his best and Haze is a great player. Contrary, when Link has momentum a match can look like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f0e-Wm4j1A
It's wifi, but Kirinblaze says the MU's 55/45 Marth and I agree.

That doesn't seem to be a very good example. Honestly the Marth player didn't look like he was trying at all (random taunting) and he didn't seem to know what to do against Link at all. His spacing was completely off for a lot of the match and overall he just wasn't playing very well. In the match of Mike Haze vs. ALSM I think ALSM was playing a bit worse than normal yes but I also think that is simply all Link can do against a good Marth who knows how to fight Link. Like you said momentum is VERY important for the match-up but anytime Link goes off stage Marth can simply kill the momentum entirely.

Momentum is important when Link fights Falco too but due to very easy spikes it becomes hard to maintain this momentum throughout the entire match. Same with Marth though it is not as bad for Link. I still say 35:65 just based on how EASILY Marth can gimp Link with very little setup.

 

[X3DS]

To put it another way: Link's poor recovery is a weakness when he fights any character but Marth can exploit this weakness a lot better than most characters.

 

[Rizen]

I agree with most of what you said about the Snake MU, 6/4 Snake.

His spacing was completely off for a lot of the match and overall he just wasn't playing very well. In the match of Mike Haze vs. ALSM I think ALSM was playing a bit worse than normal yes but I also think that is simply all Link can do against a good Marth who knows how to fight Link. Like you said momentum is VERY important for the match-up but anytime Link goes off stage Marth can simply kill the momentum entirely.

He was good but didn't space well during that match. I just used it as a counter point to show when Link's doing well.
" Like you said momentum is VERY important for the match-up but anytime Link goes off stage Marth can simply kill the momentum entirely."
This is a good point. On small stages Marth gets a huge boost because he easily controls the spacing. Link also needs platforms to space Marth. I'll bend and say the MU's 6/4 or maybe 65/35(If Marth gets a solid lead) Marth on certain stages like BF.

 

[X3DS]

I agree with most of what you said about the Snake MU, 6/4 Snake.

He was good but didn't space well during that match. I just used it as a counter point to show when Link's doing well.
" Like you said momentum is VERY important for the match-up but anytime Link goes off stage Marth can simply kill the momentum entirely."
This is a good point. On small stages Marth gets a huge boost because he easily controls the spacing. Link also needs platforms to space Marth. I'll bend and say the MU's 6/4 or maybe 65/35(If Marth gets a solid lead) Marth on certain stages like BF.

I can agree with this. Depending on the stage it is either 4/6 or 35/65. I just don't think it ever reaches the point where the MU becomes 45/55.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'll get Snake made pretty soon.

 

[Sephy95]

How appropriate that I should main Link. XD