Meta Treasure Charts: Metagame Advancement, Research Lab, and AT List.

[Moffe]

Well he said they were underrated, which is the main point I was contesting. The general opinion of Tink having a bad grab game is true, so they're not really underrated. I probably didn't express that clearly.

Speaking of grabs, I know this is super context-specific, but I was wondering what the general options for frame-trapping into grabs are. I, play people who just sit there power shielding projectiles on reaction, so I need traps for grabs. I know they won't be guaranteed or completely safe, but I was wondering what the general set ups were in this type of scenario.

Full hop fair/bair aerial catch zdrop fastfall grab.
Havnet really tried it in tourney match. But its a start xD. Returning boomerangs are really good for getting grabs.

 

[JesterJaded]

Not sure if this has been debunked before here though I gave this thread a once-over, but I have to ask: can we footstool out of U-throw, and if so, can we get anything out of it ex. FFarrow jablock (or at least making Dair more useful)?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Not sure if this has been debunked before here though I gave this thread a once-over, but I have to ask: can we footstool out of U-throw, and if so, can we get anything out of it ex. FFarrow jablock (or at least making Dair more useful)?

Lol no. Not even close.

 

[HeroOfWinds]

Why isn't OoS Bombs not listed in OP. I get so many free Bomb to Fairs out of it... Speaking of which Bomb to Fair, Bomb to Uai, hell bomb to EVERYTHING isnt listed either... Am I just missing something?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Why isn't OoS Bombs not listed in OP. I get so many free Bomb to Fairs out of it... Speaking of which Bomb to Fair, Bomb to Uai, hell bomb to EVERYTHING isnt listed either... Am I just missing something?

It's not listed because it's super obvious and has no specialised or advanced information regarding it.

 

[HeroOfWinds]

Obvious you say, yet I rarely EVER see it anywhere. And I suppose utilt to uair true comboing to over 100% is obvious too. Smh

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Obvious you say, yet I rarely EVER see it anywhere. And I suppose utilt to uair true comboing to over 100% is obvious too. Smh

Where on earth have you been looking?
In any case, if you haven't seen much of it, I can guarantee you that's not because people don't know about it. It's pretty basic stuff. By that logic I may as well add U-smash OoS too, because that's way more complicated. Believe me, it's fine. I can't have every little thing. With some things you can safely assume.

 

[RedMoon2546]

Hey! ive made a YT video about new toon link bomb tricks and i wanna if youve known about this, if you use it, and how you will use it. any feedback i can get is great by the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOy5uglvjSE&feature=youtu.be

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hey! ive made a YT video about new toon link bomb tricks and i wanna if youve known about this, if you use it, and how you will use it. any feedback i can get is great by the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOy5uglvjSE&feature=youtu.be

These are all known. You'll find them in the OP. Don't make a separate thread in the future.

 

[HeroOfWinds]

Sometimes the simplest things are never used. At the very least you should add utilt to uair true comboing until over 100%

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Sometimes the simplest things are never used. At the very least you should add utilt to uair true comboing until over 100%

This isn't a guide.

 

[HeroOfWinds]

Utilt is godlike and is an instrumental part of toons meta game. It's guaranteed free damage every single time an utilt lands for combos. And it knocks them into the air allowing for frame trap uair strings

 

[Moffe]

Utilt is godlike and is an instrumental part of toons meta game. It's guaranteed free damage every single time an utilt lands for combos. And it knocks them into the air allowing for frame trap uair strings

Everything you say is true, but this is "advanced" tech thread. Theres tons of other simple comboes that are not listed also.

 

[HeroOfWinds]

I thought "True Combos" was AT. Guess I was wrong. But honestly most players DON'T KNOW THIS STUFF

 

[Halfy]

I thought "True Combos" was AT. Guess I was wrong. But honestly most players DON'T KNOW THIS STUFF

What players are you talking about? Are you referring to For Glory?

 

[JesterJaded]

In his defense, he has a point that there should at least be some information on Utilt considering it's Toon Link's highest damage output option. Perhaps character-specific information like how we can net 40-or-so-% on Sheik and going in detail on the potential conversions and their pros / cons? It might seem text-book to experienced Toon Link mains, but it will benefit newcomers to know this information from the get-go. There's more reason to spend 10 minutes of your life giving U-tilt a brief overview than to not have it at all.

 

[HeroOfWinds]

Not just that, but I watch Hyuga and Hayato play often, and they rarely do many of the AT ive found to be quite effective. I mean they work on LoF Jband (and he's the one who taught me them). Some of this "basic" stuff is never used at high level play, and it still WORKS regardless of what level play. And obvious to you, may not be obvious to others

 

[Moffe]

I can remember reading all about these basic stuff other places though. Look around the main threads. maybe even this one some pages ago.

 

[LotadAlittle]

ok, i've been labbing a bit lately and I found a couple things, I don't know if this is useful at all, but you can fast fall a platform and c4 a bomb really quick, like... it looks kinda like melee a little bit... anyway, that's just a quick and likely unuseful way to c4, the main thing I want to share is something using... PERFECT PIVOTS!!! about time tink found a use for them... so I feel i can now pp pretty consistently and i was salty that i didn't have a use for them, so I decided to lab with them.

I found zair - pp - u tilt can combo to pretty high %s (btw that can be useful to get an u tilt string at low %s), and then I remembered, u tilt combos into up air for a kill at around 90% - 100%. So... yes... zair - pp - u tilt - up air is a true combo if performed correctly (i haven't tested on real people yet, just training mode so i don't know about how DI would affect it, other than that, it registers as a 3 hit true combo, from zair to up air). This looks like it could be very useful because zair is relatively easy to connect, it isn't exactly a dedede f smash, and this is a combo of around 95% to death beginning with a zair. And before anyone asks, this was tested on mario, I imagine it'll work on a majority of the cast, only failing on a few such as jiggz.

If anyone else is able to test for DI and maybe some other characters then I'd really appreciate it.

Edit: Just tested on jiggz, kills at 60/70% but no combo, zair - u tilt registers though

 

[dettadeus]

haven't had a chance to read through this whole thread yet, but i have a relatively quick question: has anyone figured out if it's possible to cancel sh fair's landing lag by autocancelling another aerial? just by looking at the frame data you should be able to use the IASA at the end of fair to autocancel another aerial (2 frames of fair IASA while still airborne, all his aerials have a 2-5 frame autocancel window) but every time i try to do this, i end up in that aerial's landing lag animation. idk if i'm somehow interpreting the frame data wrong or if something in the game is explicitly preventing this from happening.

using the IASA for other animations like going into a double jump or a projectile is nice but i would REALLY like to be able to autocancel fair somehow.

 

[CURRY]

haven't had a chance to read through this whole thread yet, but i have a relatively quick question: has anyone figured out if it's possible to cancel sh fair's landing lag by autocancelling another aerial? just by looking at the frame data you should be able to use the IASA at the end of fair to autocancel another aerial (2 frames of fair IASA while still airborne, all his aerials have a 2-5 frame autocancel window) but every time i try to do this, i end up in that aerial's landing lag animation. idk if i'm somehow interpreting the frame data wrong or if something in the game is explicitly preventing this from happening.

using the IASA for other animations like going into a double jump or a projectile is nice but i would REALLY like to be able to autocancel fair somehow.

dettadeus :O
I remember seeing you around on the Pika subforums.
Anyway, yeah, sh fair landing lag can be REDUCED by nairing before you hit the ground. I usually go for a double jump to reset spacing though. Or Boomerang, because Boomerang is just really great.

I've seen sh fair -> double jump fair being used, and it seems like it would be a good wall. I'm trying to implement it into my gameplay, but I'm not too sure about how effective it really is.

Also, rising fair *almost* autocancels from a fullhop + fastfall. So fastfall a little later. We mostly use fullhop fair anyways because of the boomerang/bomb -> fair followup. The only time I see sh fair being used really, is for recatching bombs bouncing off of shields, but even then, fullhop nair is the safer option a lot of the time.

All this info, and more, can be obtained by just playing around with Toon yourself. So do that.

 

[dettadeus]

i mean i've been playing tink in colorado tournaments for the last 8 months and i've been ~5 on the pr since the game came out lol (tink/pika comain, would say i comain rob too but he sucks in most of the matchups that are common around here so i barely use him now). this is the one thing that has bothered me literally since day 1 because it just doesn't make sense.

as a player i make pretty heavy use of sh aerials just in general and i would love to do something like sh retreating fair for spacing, which works much better if it autocancels rather than having to waste my double jump and give up a ton of stage control.

 

[Moffe]

Guys please read through this forum, as most of the stuff being posted lately are know and is already posted.. sucks when i get excited because someone post in the AT thread and its stuff thats already known. Zair pp utilt or what to do with sh fairs etc. We even have videos around on some of it. Its really old. Not trying to be a douche, but you really will save your and our time by checking the forums here.

Btw detta another thing you can do is if your sh fair is a bomb catch or izac you can throw bomb after fair before landing which will reduce lag by alot and apply pressure.

 

[LotadAlittle]

Guys please read through this forum, as most of the stuff being posted lately are know and is already posted.. sucks when i get excited because someone post in the AT thread and its stuff thats already known. Zair pp utilt or what to do with sh fairs etc. We even have videos around on some of it. Its really old. Not trying to be a douche, but you really will save your and our time by checking the forums here.

Btw detta another thing you can do is if your sh fair is a bomb catch or izac you can throw bomb after fair before landing which will reduce lag by alot and apply pressure.

my post was mainly to let people know that it's a guaranteed 80%/100% - death if you end it with an up air considering most people would see zair - pp -u tilt then only use it for low% strings

 

[Dasmilitus]

haven't had a chance to read through this whole thread yet, but i have a relatively quick question: has anyone figured out if it's possible to cancel sh fair's landing lag by autocancelling another aerial? just by looking at the frame data you should be able to use the IASA at the end of fair to autocancel another aerial (2 frames of fair IASA while still airborne, all his aerials have a 2-5 frame autocancel window) but every time i try to do this, i end up in that aerial's landing lag animation. idk if i'm somehow interpreting the frame data wrong or if something in the game is explicitly preventing this from happening.

using the IASA for other animations like going into a double jump or a projectile is nice but i would REALLY like to be able to autocancel fair somehow.

I just performed a SH Fair to starting frames of nair and there is noticable reduction in lag. You can also perform a FAir using BFO and use the IASA for a bomb throw

 

[Moffe]

my post was mainly to let people know that it's a guaranteed 80%/100% - death if you end it with an up air considering most people would see zair - pp -u tilt then only use it for low% strings

Utilt to uair kill is very common knowledge. Btw i wouldnt encourage people to try that zair utilt combo anyway. Its fully possible to pull off but Zair to pp utilt will only connect at high percent if theres no di and you hit the zair up his face. Been using these kind of comboes for many months.

Lets not discuss this here. Also remember its "advanced" tech thread.

 

[dettadeus]

I just performed a SH Fair to starting frames of nair and there is noticable reduction in lag. You can also perform a FAir using BFO and use the IASA for a bomb throw

"noticeable reduction in lag", according to frame data, is 3 frames lol. better than nothing i guess but still doesn't answer my question of why nothing can autocancel out of fair.

and yeah i started trying to set up fairs with bomb in my hand to IASA into bomb throw, seems like my best option atm. just have to get more consistent with the setups.
as for the BFO thing... i think method 4 is the only one that would work for this kind of thing. didn't actually know about that one though, i was practicing the first couple methods.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok, this needs to be discussed in more detail:

The bomb to double Nair does 2/3 shield damage, so if the opponent's shield is lowish, you can run up, SH bomb down throw, continue to drift into them and buffer a Nair, and if they shield the bomb, they will be forced against their will to shield the first hit of Nair, at which point they will have two options and two options only: either get hit by the second hit of Nair (and leave with their shield even further depleted), or get their shield broken. Sickness.

I should clarify something first up. I looked at the above in more detail and in order to replicate what it says exactly in the space of a SH there is only a 1 frame window to throw the bomb down (keep reading till the next block of text though). To explain, if you throw the bomb down so it starts on frame 15 of your SH, the first hit of Nair won't lock the opponent in their shield as it will hit 1 frame too late (essentially giving them two options; get hit by the first hit of Nair, or shield it). If you throw the bomb down so that it starts on frame 16 of your SH, everything is absolutely perfect; this is the sweet-spot where you get the bomb to Nair lock out of a SH and you get the second hit of Nair being used on the last frame of your air time so that it gets maximum frame advantage. If you throw the bomb down so that the throw starts on frame 17 of the SH, the second hit of Nair won't come out in time.
In other words, as crazy as this is, it will require frame precision to use.

Arguably there is in fact a 3 frame window to throw the bomb down. When you think about it, the rules haven't changed if you throw the bomb down one or two frames earlier (i.e. frame 14 or 15). The opponent can choose to either get hit by the first or second hit of Nair or get their shield broken. No other option is available to them once the bomb hits their partially depleted shield. So I guess I'm ok with that. We pull off stuff that requires 3 frame precision all the time without knowing it, like power-shielding for instance.


If you just want to definitely lock the opponent in their shield with the bomb to Nair, that's easy, just throw the bomb down at around the peak of the SH, no precision required. You won't get the second hit of Nair, but then maybe their shield was super low and you intended to break it, so that still works and is easy.

In the patch thread I alluded to the possibility of using a FH method if the SH method didn't work. The SH method works, I mean it could be easier, but it only covers approaches on the ground.

The FH method is not difficult, though I'm yet to find a good setup for it. Essentially you just throw the bomb down beside an opponent's shield (without fast falling) as you're coming down from, well anything really. It doesn't actually have to be a FH, it can be after you got hit way up in the air or something. You just want to start it low enough so that the first hit of Nair hits their shield, but not too low otherwise the second hit of Nair won't come out in time (or you'll get hit by the explosion).
With this method you can potentially have safe landings depending on the opponent's shield-health and where you are in the air in relation to them (because obviously you want to be able to throw the bomb just beside their shield and be able to drift right in on top of them so that you land behind their shield with the second hit of Nair to better ensure your safety in case the shield doesn't break).

To sum it all up, this literally means that Toon can threaten and beat partially depleted shields while holding a bomb. What kind of a topsy-turvey world are we living in?

 

[Halfy]

To sum it all up, this literally means that Toon can threaten and beat partially depleted shields

while holding a bomb. What kind of a topsy-turvey world are we living in?

I don't know what world this is, but I like it.
Can JC throw into up smash lock them in shield if you JC throw so it hits the ground next to their shield? Maybe with the neutral throw since it doesn't go as far?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Can JC throw into up smash lock them in shield if you JC throw so it hits the ground next to their shield? Maybe with the neutral throw since it doesn't go as far?

Yeah, the JC throw part is unnecessary and makes it so the bomb explosion gets in the way etc. If you just do a standard throw then dash after immediately and the bomb lands infront of a shield, then dash attack will hit their shield before they can drop it. U-smash is too slow though, as is everything else.
This could be useful if someone's shield is really low.

 

[Moffe]

Yeah, the JC throw part is unnecessary and makes it so the bomb explosion gets in the way etc. If you just do a standard throw then dash after immediately and the bomb lands infront of a shield, then dash attack will hit their shield before they can drop it. U-smash is too slow though, as is everything else.
This could be useful if someone's shield is really low.

what about run up with jcupb? the shield damage should be decent?

 

[Halfy]

Just found out that you can actually z-drop bombs without zair coming out if you are in the tumbling animation.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

what about run up with jcupb? the shield damage should be decent?

No that doesn't work either. The main reason why dash attack works is because of the range and the burst of speed it gives. Nothing else comes close.

Just found out that you can actually z-drop bombs without zair coming out if you are in the tumbling animation.

That has been in the OP for quite some time now.

 

[Ryochi]

I find that this tech is pretty damn useful for TL for the following reasons.

1. It makes all of his tilts a lot easier to land. Dtilt can trip so getting a grab after it now is...pretty much guaranteed. Plus if you're close enough, I believe you can follow up with some other stuff (Utilt, possibly a few smashes, etc.)

Ftilt might actually be more useful.

His Utilt gets even better to land thanks to the momentum he gains.

2. As you can see, this can be used to pressure shields with a jab while going behind them to avoid a shieldgrab. Considering the shieldstun addition...this might be useful

3. You can also do smashes out of this.



Yeah, I just thought I should share this if someone hasn't already...I just feel that TL gets a lot more out of this than some other characters. I know that its been pretty helpful for me.

 

[CURRY]

This was known for a while (listed as "Slingshot" instead of U-Turn in our list of ATs), and while sliding around with all your standing options is really cool, this requires a dash turnaround, which is kinda slow and reactable for Toon Link.

Still, a slide is still a slide. I really wished that it was implemented more, but dash turnaround is still a lot of frames to go through to do this kind of thing. The version where you do the turnaround near the ledge to cancel the (retreating) displacement caused by dash turnaround is probably nearly unviable-- the only way I see it being relatively useful is in the situation presented in the video where the opponent rushes up to you and shields, and you perform a crossup with the slide. With attacks on shields being safer, this actually may be a bit more ok.

The only thing that I can think about this being useful while not on the ledge for is for a tech/getup read in which you read a roll towards you, in which case you might be better off charging a usmash anyway-- going for a "roll towards" punish is the safest option out of the four (roll towards, roll away, getup attack, regular getup) since you either get the punish, or end up being so far away from the opponent that almost anything you do is hard to punish at that distance unless you do something stupid (like repeatedly whiffing said smash punish and repeatedly trying to catch the forward roll)

We're jumping and dashing around and not using too much of our sword for this to be very useful tbh, and it might stay that way...

 

[Ryochi]

This was known for a while (listed as "Slingshot" instead of U-Turn in our list of ATs), and while sliding around with all your standing options is really cool, this requires a dash turnaround, which is kinda slow and reactable for Toon Link.

Still, a slide is still a slide. I really wished that it was implemented more, but dash turnaround is still a lot of frames to go through to do this kind of thing. The version where you do the turnaround near the ledge to cancel the (retreating) displacement caused by dash turnaround is probably nearly unviable-- the only way I see it being relatively useful is in the situation presented in the video where the opponent rushes up to you and shields, and you perform a crossup with the slide. With attacks on shields being safer, this actually may be a bit more ok.

The only thing that I can think about this being useful while not on the ledge for is for a tech/getup read in which you read a roll towards you, in which case you might be better off charging a usmash anyway-- going for a "roll towards" punish is the safest option out of the four (roll towards, roll away, getup attack, regular getup) since you either get the punish, or end up being so far away from the opponent that almost anything you do is hard to punish at that distance unless you do something stupid (like repeatedly whiffing said smash punish and repeatedly trying to catch the forward roll)

We're jumping and dashing around and not using too much of our sword for this to be very useful tbh, and it might stay that way...

Fair enough, I still think this could be a bit useful....besides the ledge thing.

I dunno if this is bad or not but I use it mostly during TL's neutral (Yes, I'm aware that you still have to jump and dash around) since...well....standing tilts. Like you said before, a slide is a slide...and considering that he has the option to make his all of his tilts even better (and dtilt even better to use)...yeah I use this and it worked so far for me.

I just think it should be used a bit sparingly and carefully.

And this kinda makes Ftilt a decent kill option at higher percents....sort of...i think...it should still be used as a last resort imo but that's something to note.

 

[Moffe]

Fair enough, I still think this could be a bit useful....besides the ledge thing.

I dunno if this is bad or not but I use it mostly during TL's neutral (Yes, I'm aware that you still have to jump and dash around) since...well....standing tilts. Like you said before, a slide is a slide...and considering that he has the option to make his all of his tilts even better (and dtilt even better to use)...yeah I use this and it worked so far for me.

I just think it should be used a bit sparingly and carefully.

And this kinda makes Ftilt a decent kill option at higher percents....sort of...i think...it should still be used as a last resort imo but that's something to note.

Use it for mixups! just don't rely on it like you do on jcbt

 

[SmashvilleProds]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgSYA8QrviE

most of you have probably seen this video already, but I feel like toon link can use this tech by the ledge as a mixup.

I find doing it into side tilt and jump cancel toss useful, resulting in some nice kills, because he can cover up to half of the stage with side tilt and jc throw

 

[LotadAlittle]

Shovel the coal in the hype train, I found another jab lock setup! and i'm 90% sure this is legit (or at least on pit)
I've only tested this on pit so far but I'll test on other characters once I can.

So basically, on bf you need them positioned between the middle of the stage and one of the lower platforms at around 100%. jcbt towards them, they can't jump before they hit the platform (until around 117%) and this can be very awkward to tech. The most likely case is: they try to jump away but can't and then miss the tech or they try to tech but fail. Assuming they miss the tech you can follow up with a short hop/full hop - uncharged arrow to jab lock, follow that up with whatever you like, fully charged smash attack, up tilt - up air, rang - bomb - fair/up b, you can kinda just do your favourite, flashiest kill setup.

Again, I'll get to testing %s for different chars later today but for pit I think it was 97% - 116%. There's a chance this only works on chars with multiple jumps due to them taking longer to jump but I'll don't think that will be the case, it should at least work on fast fallers. I really hope this is legit because it definitely looks stylish af, and if it isn't then imma stab a *****...

Edit: Alright, gonna start adding %s for all the chars now. Btw, this is all with neutral di and no rage, if you wanna see the %s with di/rage then do it yourself, I ain't doing that.

Mario: 101% - 118%
Luigi: 91% - 98%
Peach: 83% - 90%
Bowser: 111% - 120%
Yoshi: 96% - 102%
RosaLuma: 78% - 86%

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

...
'Lock' is the general term, not 'jab lock'. It's a 'jab lock' only when 'jab' is involved. What you are referring to is an 'arrow lock' specifically, i.e. 'arrows can lock the opponent', not 'arrows can jab lock the opponent'.
Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine.