Lucy_ya dawg
Smash Cadet
TLs dair has been nerfed from brawl, but ledge trump to dair works if you time it right. I also found you can dair them through the stage right before they grab the ledge the first time. All about positioning and timing
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The first post in the OP got a much needed update. I believe I'm now on top of all the discussions in this thread.
As for the second post in this thread, I intend to bring it up to the standards of my other AT thread at some later date, but for now, it will suffice.
In particular I'm liking the idea of labbing the last topic of discussion a bit more. This idea of 'Getting the most damage out of favourable situations' greatly interests me, and there's so much scope for discussion and testing. You just pick a favourable situation, e.g. landing an U-tilt at low to medium percents, or landing a Zair up relatively close (we could Zair to footstool to Dair lock etc on low percents), or a Boomerang up relatively close, or a JC throw, an Up-smash at low percents, etc, and then try to figure out what is the most damaging thing you can do out of that situation. The idea is that there will be a best option to take in these situations, and we may all be missing out on free damage by choosing inferior options. The best thing to do will change depending on the character as well as other factors so we won't be running out of things to contribute towards this discussion any time soon.
As for the second post in this thread, I intend to bring it up to the standards of my other AT thread at some later date, but for now, it will suffice.
In particular I'm liking the idea of labbing the last topic of discussion a bit more. This idea of 'Getting the most damage out of favourable situations' greatly interests me, and there's so much scope for discussion and testing. You just pick a favourable situation, e.g. landing an U-tilt at low to medium percents, or landing a Zair up relatively close (we could Zair to footstool to Dair lock etc on low percents), or a Boomerang up relatively close, or a JC throw, an Up-smash at low percents, etc, and then try to figure out what is the most damaging thing you can do out of that situation. The idea is that there will be a best option to take in these situations, and we may all be missing out on free damage by choosing inferior options. The best thing to do will change depending on the character as well as other factors so we won't be running out of things to contribute towards this discussion any time soon.
ephOE
Smash Apprentice
A mixup I've seen Zan use a lot is a Utilt string (of course number depends on %, weight, fallspeed, rage, etc.) to Nair, which will knock the other player forward, which can allow for a Dair follow up. It's punishable if the other player reacts accordingly before the Dair, but if not they will be at high enough % for a short spike. From there you can possibly get in another Utilt or even Up Smash if they are slow to react. If they jump then you can either try to catch them on landing or pull a bomb, etc.
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Theis
Smash Cadet
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IMO: it is a great move to punish really unsafe recoveries but as a move to use in the neutral its not worth it
Lucy_ya dawg
Smash Cadet
uptilt to up air works until high percents
LotadAlittle
Smash Journeyman
Well if we're talking about up tilt strings I'll share my most common one. Up tilts until around the last one you can do before it using the sound effect for the stronger hit, then fh (i think) nair to fair/dair. After this i can usually boomerang to run in and up smash then just start juggling the opponent. Sometimes I have to end the up tilt with a fh, double bair, depending on if they're behind me or not.
Lucy_ya dawg
Smash Cadet
I get off on stringing moves lol. after the double bair i grab their landing or /up air /bomb to up air
LotadAlittle
Smash Journeyman
yeah, I never really thought about follow ups from that. I'd usually just do a running up smash.
How to get the most out of hitting the opponent with a boomerang?:
If you're holding a bomb and you throw a regular boomerangup close or even at a short/decent distance (a roll's distance away or even more depending on their percent) you can combo out of this if you immediately dash in and JC throw the bomb. A regular throw won't combo unless you're right up close which just doesn't happen all that often. At a short distance, not only will the JC throw ensure you get the combo, but it will put you in place for following this up for even more guaranteed damage.
Mario at 0%: at roughly a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to F-smash is so close to being guaranteed. If you do F-smash 1 early enough it will register as a combo, but then Mario will be too high for the second hit to combo, and if you delay the first hit so that the second f-smash combos, the first hit won't combo. If the character you're versing is even slightly less floaty, then this is without a doubt going to work. 33% reliable string.
Boomerang to JC throw to footstool to Dair is 28% but on Mario is doesn't lock as there was too much damage dealt by the boomerang, so that's as far as that combo goes.
Boomerang to JC throw to U-tilt obviously works, but at this percent you're not getting much out of it after that, unless someone else can find something. If you delay the U-tilt slightly you can still register it as a combo and get a second U-tilt to combo, but then Mario is still at too low of a percent to remain in hitstun for long enough to get a follow up after that. U-smash is really close though, and that would get you 35% all up.
This one could use a bit of work.
Mario at 25%: at roughly a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to U-tilt to U-air registers as a 31% 4 hit combo.
Let's see you top that XD.
Mario at 50%: more than a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to dash in U-air registers as a solid 26% 3 hit combo.
That's 1% extra than the Fair and it puts them above you.
Can you think of any options that get even more guaranteed damage?
If you're holding a bomb and you throw a regular boomerangup close or even at a short/decent distance (a roll's distance away or even more depending on their percent) you can combo out of this if you immediately dash in and JC throw the bomb. A regular throw won't combo unless you're right up close which just doesn't happen all that often. At a short distance, not only will the JC throw ensure you get the combo, but it will put you in place for following this up for even more guaranteed damage.
Mario at 0%: at roughly a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to F-smash is so close to being guaranteed. If you do F-smash 1 early enough it will register as a combo, but then Mario will be too high for the second hit to combo, and if you delay the first hit so that the second f-smash combos, the first hit won't combo. If the character you're versing is even slightly less floaty, then this is without a doubt going to work. 33% reliable string.
Boomerang to JC throw to footstool to Dair is 28% but on Mario is doesn't lock as there was too much damage dealt by the boomerang, so that's as far as that combo goes.
Boomerang to JC throw to U-tilt obviously works, but at this percent you're not getting much out of it after that, unless someone else can find something. If you delay the U-tilt slightly you can still register it as a combo and get a second U-tilt to combo, but then Mario is still at too low of a percent to remain in hitstun for long enough to get a follow up after that. U-smash is really close though, and that would get you 35% all up.
This one could use a bit of work.
Mario at 25%: at roughly a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to U-tilt to U-air registers as a 31% 4 hit combo.
Let's see you top that XD.
Mario at 50%: more than a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to dash in U-air registers as a solid 26% 3 hit combo.
That's 1% extra than the Fair and it puts them above you.
Can you think of any options that get even more guaranteed damage?
LotadAlittle
Smash Journeyman
I found a combo for 64%! But it isn't guaranteed and is also pretty tricky to pull off.
Rang up close, jc throw a bomb, wait just a very short while under them so that you can pull off two up tilts to a nair.
Here's the tricky part, if you get all of that just right you can FF fair, but everything must be perfect.
after that run up, jump and boomerang angled down so it hits them (jumping so you keep your momentum (don't fast fast fall or you get landing lag)) and end the string with a running up smash. This leaves them in the air so you can juggle them.
I also quite frequently manage to get a up air after this.
Anyway, like I said, this is NOT guaranteed, however, with enough practice I think this will become a very reliable string.
Anyone else got other strings that are more reliable than this and do around 40 - 50% damage?
Rang up close, jc throw a bomb, wait just a very short while under them so that you can pull off two up tilts to a nair.
Here's the tricky part, if you get all of that just right you can FF fair, but everything must be perfect.
after that run up, jump and boomerang angled down so it hits them (jumping so you keep your momentum (don't fast fast fall or you get landing lag)) and end the string with a running up smash. This leaves them in the air so you can juggle them.
I also quite frequently manage to get a up air after this.
Anyway, like I said, this is NOT guaranteed, however, with enough practice I think this will become a very reliable string.
Anyone else got other strings that are more reliable than this and do around 40 - 50% damage?
So in other words, you found a 'string' that does 64%. You're talking to the guy who wrote the smash dictionary after all XD. You corrected it later on in the post but my initial reaction was one of disapointment when I realised it wasn't actually a combo.
Semantics aside, which character is it on and what is their starting percent?
LotadAlittle
Smash Journeyman
sorry about that, hmm... what would I call it... scrubiness?
I only really got too interactive online with the competitive smash community around January/February so i'm still learning some of the terms.
Anyway, the string starts at 0% on Mario (Haven't checked other chars/percentages yet) and I found that even if you don't get the whole string then you should still be able to get atleast 25 - 30%.
So maybe not the most reliable string but still is reliable for a bit of a % lead if you start with it.
As difficult as it may be to believe, what with the avatar and the scary red name and the intimidatingly long posts, I am rarely ticked off XD. It's really not a big deal. Don't worry about it.
LotadAlittle
Smash Journeyman
Ok, I was always a bit confused by your avatar whenever I saw it.
It always looked... 3spoopy5me
Edit:
I'm in the lab right now, has it been discovered that if you jc throw a bomb and catch it with an aerial then cancel your landing lag by throwing it when you hit the ground? This works with fair nair and bair. Alternatively you can even c4 the bomb just before you land so you don't even get the lag of throwing the bomb, allowing you to act almost immediately after landing. If perfected this could be a method of almost lag cancelling fair and bair from a sh.
Please experiment further with this and try to find if there is a way to do a sh fair/bair and get no landing lag at all.
I'll spend about another hour seeing anything else I can do with this.
Edit: while looking for uses of this I found that C4ing a bomb off the side of the stage could possibly be used for edge guarding.
It always looked... 3spoopy5me
Edit:
I'm in the lab right now, has it been discovered that if you jc throw a bomb and catch it with an aerial then cancel your landing lag by throwing it when you hit the ground? This works with fair nair and bair. Alternatively you can even c4 the bomb just before you land so you don't even get the lag of throwing the bomb, allowing you to act almost immediately after landing. If perfected this could be a method of almost lag cancelling fair and bair from a sh.
Please experiment further with this and try to find if there is a way to do a sh fair/bair and get no landing lag at all.
I'll spend about another hour seeing anything else I can do with this.
Edit: while looking for uses of this I found that C4ing a bomb off the side of the stage could possibly be used for edge guarding.
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SH instant Nair/Bair already autocancel. It's Fair that's the weird one. It's IASA frames come out earlier than it's autocancel frames, meaning that you can DJ before you land out of a SH but it won't autocancel out of a SH (i.e. the opposite of what happens with SH Nair/Bair). It's mentioned in the guide that if you want to land after a SH Fair you're better off throwing a bomb, using a special, or using Nair before you land in order to by-pass the landing lag of Fair.
Lucy_ya dawg
Smash Cadet
up tiltx4+ upsmash into up air bair bair .
Which character, what starting percents, did it register on the combo counter? Ok so the answer to the last question is of course 'no', but the point is, this post is pretty meaningless without any kind of context.
Lucy_ya dawg
Smash Cadet
well up tilt usually goes to 4 or more, so i up smash for anyone who can escape.
uptilt , up smash and up throw usually combo into up air until high percents
once they're in the air bair wait and bair again.
No context needed. go try it out for yourself . I don't test things out these are just random things i tried in friendlies.. I can't even remember which character lol. Not one for explaining either because i don't how to plus if i did peoplewould just do what i said instead of exploring the options. My roommates always telling me about frames and stuff and im like........uuuuhhhh idk wut any of dat means.
uptilt , up smash and up throw usually combo into up air until high percents
once they're in the air bair wait and bair again.
No context needed. go try it out for yourself . I don't test things out these are just random things i tried in friendlies.. I can't even remember which character lol. Not one for explaining either because i don't how to plus if i did peoplewould just do what i said instead of exploring the options. My roommates always telling me about frames and stuff and im like........uuuuhhhh idk wut any of dat means.
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LotadAlittle
Smash Journeyman
So you don't, as they would say, mlg...
Lucy_ya dawg
Smash Cadet
I MJG......
Moffe
Smash Apprentice
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Anyone got good setup for getting the most out of a shield break?
For now my best possible setup for damage % is
- to c4 next to enemy, throw bomb up to make it land on the c4 it so you get 16% damage with bombs, then you follow up with boomerang and fair or just a uair after the bomb for the kill.
If its very low damage i guess utilt stringto uair is the best.
Ofc fully charged fsmash is best at higher percents for kill though
what do you think?
For now my best possible setup for damage % is
- to c4 next to enemy, throw bomb up to make it land on the c4 it so you get 16% damage with bombs, then you follow up with boomerang and fair or just a uair after the bomb for the kill.
If its very low damage i guess utilt stringto uair is the best.
Ofc fully charged fsmash is best at higher percents for kill though
what do you think?
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ephOE
Smash Apprentice
Like you mentioned, I think a lot of options are going to be based on what % the shield broken player is at. Dair spikes might be another option. If they are somewhat near to the ledge you can walk into them to slide them closer to the ledge, then use the Dair windobox to push them off (if I remember correctly they'll still be in the helpless shield broken state while tumbling). Obviously you'd need to be quick enough to pull this off before they can mash out.Anyone got good setup for getting the most out of a shield break?
For now my best possible setup for damage % is
- to c4 next to enemy, throw bomb up to make it land on the c4 it so you get 16% damage with bombs, then you follow up with boomerang and fair or just a uair after the bomb for the kill.
If its very low damage i guess utilt stringto uair is the best.
Ofc fully charged fsmash is best at higher percents for kill though
what do you think?
Moffe
Smash Apprentice
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thats nice! i noticed that you can also push them to edge, full jump bomb throw down to dair spike
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C4ing a bomb next to the opponent in shield-stun is risky and in any case both bombs combined would do 12%.Anyone got good setup for getting the most out of a shield break?
For now my best possible setup for damage % is
- to c4 next to enemy, throw bomb up to make it land on the c4 it so you get 16% damage with bombs, then you follow up with boomerang and fair or just a uair after the bomb for the kill.
If its very low damage i guess utilt stringto uair is the best.
Ofc fully charged fsmash is best at higher percents for kill though
what do you think?
Moving/pushing the opponent off the edge will cancel the shieldbreak-stun and immediately give them control over their character.
Moffe
Smash Apprentice
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yeah I noticed it does 12%, but if you c4 pick a new bomb smash throw it up -> pick up c4ed bomb and weak throw up they will land simultanously and will do 16% if placed correctly x) but it takes quite some time.
I found the best option to push them to the edge and do the dair spike combo if you have time, kills at like 30% vs most people if not earlier.
Though the highest % is a huge topic because theres so much advanced setups you could do with timed/placed bombs mid air, returning boomerangs + footstools and whatever XD
A easy and stylish one for good damage would be to throw boomerang and wait for it to return, throw a bomb up before it returns.
Returning boomerang hits -> uptilt -> bomb in air -> uair
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CURRY
Smash Journeyman
Lol, watching Ranai play because apparently he's been beating top players in Japan (LIKE RAIN AND STUFF) with Villager.
Villager is so good. No wonder MJG switched T___T
Anyway, this recovery option was SO smart:
https://youtu.be/aXrZ0f7r-aU?t=7m36s
I can't test it out right now, but Toon can kind of do this-- he has a walljump, a pretty good double jump, and a really good disjointed uair.
Now the only question is airspeed and fallspeed ratios. Can Toon do this SAFELY?
I feel like Toon can't do this, but if he can, it'll be a really great and unexpected mixup.
Villager is so good. No wonder MJG switched T___T
Anyway, this recovery option was SO smart:
https://youtu.be/aXrZ0f7r-aU?t=7m36s
I can't test it out right now, but Toon can kind of do this-- he has a walljump, a pretty good double jump, and a really good disjointed uair.
Now the only question is airspeed and fallspeed ratios. Can Toon do this SAFELY?
I feel like Toon can't do this, but if he can, it'll be a really great and unexpected mixup.
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ephOE
Smash Apprentice
That was clever, Ranai is a great player. I'd see this working if either 1) the other player is playing a character that doesn't have great offstage options to gimp TL, or 2) the player just isn't comfortable going offstage (there are a lot who still don't).
Used late-game, this might have KO potential. Used earlier, it might condition the other player to wait on stage or shield on stage, making it easier for TL to quickly tether back. TL's recovery is so vulnerable that any mixup he can use helps.
Now that I think about it, can TL still walljump after canceling his tether? That might alleviate his issues with aerial mobility. Tether, cancel it and Tarzan under the stage, walljump, Uair?
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Lucy_ya dawg
Smash Cadet
I feel like trying this multiple times will result in your death
Theis
Smash Cadet
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yes toonlink can still wall jump
CURRY
Smash Journeyman
x.x
I just realized that I only kind of passively tested asked for someone to test it out in my post. I was wondering why three people came, and not one of you tested it out, lol. So yeah, can someone test it out?
Toon isn't as floaty as Villager is, so he might not have as much aerial freedom as Villager does, and may not be able to just drift backwards, safe and away from opponents' attacks like we see Renai did-- and the ability to avoid attacks this way is pretty much key to being able to do this recovery mixup. Is Toon able to safely avoid attacks, then double jump and REACH the wall under Battlefield?
Again, this is a recovery MIXUP POSSIBLITY and definitely isn't as safe as our normal dj -> up-B is.
I just realized that I only kind of passively tested asked for someone to test it out in my post. I was wondering why three people came, and not one of you tested it out, lol. So yeah, can someone test it out?
Toon isn't as floaty as Villager is, so he might not have as much aerial freedom as Villager does, and may not be able to just drift backwards, safe and away from opponents' attacks like we see Renai did-- and the ability to avoid attacks this way is pretty much key to being able to do this recovery mixup. Is Toon able to safely avoid attacks, then double jump and REACH the wall under Battlefield?
Again, this is a recovery MIXUP POSSIBLITY and definitely isn't as safe as our normal dj -> up-B is.
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ephOE
Smash Apprentice
I've been working with it, forgot to reply. One advantage Vilager has is the rocket & slingshot combination to help him wall out edgeguarding attempts. Toon Link can cover himself less effectively with bomb & boomerang. Getting that far under the stage is the biggest issue, because normally you would almost never want to be in the position. Again, I think canceling the tether might help with this but I'd need to practice it more before I could say for sure. I've found that if the other player is giving you the opportunity to Uair stab them through the stage, you won't need to go through the trouble of wall jumping first.
I've only tried on Battlefield, and I'm having an easier time on the left side (BF is not symmetrical in 4). FD/omegas close to FD might be easier, although BF does have the super-thin ledges Toon Link can stab through.
It's risky no matter what and I think Villager does it much better. Against Luigi who can completely obliterate Toon Link offstage with Cyclone or characters like Greninja who love run off > bair, I wouldn't recommend this unless you notice them not shielding and not going offstage to challenge your recovery. Maybe against Bowser or Charizard, who are often going to sit on the ledge right where you want them, spitting fire and trying to force you to go low, it's a better mixup.
Halfy
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For now my best possible setup for damage % is
- to c4 next to enemy, throw bomb up to make it land on the c4 it so you get 16% damage with bombs, then you follow up with boomerang and fair or just a uair after the bomb for the kill.
If its very low damage i guess utilt stringto uair is the best.
Ofc fully charged fsmash is best at higher percents for kill though
what do you think?
Santi 3:10? Idk lol
But seriously, throw a boomerang past them, smash throw a bomb up next to them, then utilt string > grab > upthrow (and maybe a few pummels depending on percent) > uair
Also, idk if anyone mentioned it, but you can do a turnaround ftilt or fsmash out of a dash. Maybe put this on the AT list?
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Moffe
Smash Apprentice
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Uair after up throw isn't guaranteed though! Unless you have the bomb hit at a certain height(s). So maybe throw bomb straight above for a safe uair after! Hmm I could see this do like at least 33%. though fully charged fsmash is 29 percent XD
Btw utilt string to grab? Is that guaranteed? I can see it work on the heavies characters maybe
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Halfy
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It isn't guaranteed, but it can be a good mixup if they try to airdodge out.
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ephOE
Smash Apprentice
Up throw > Uair is actually guaranteed on at least a few characters within a certain % window +/- rage effect.
We sure are getting deep into this shield-breaking business. Does anyone here actually get shield-breaks that often?
Halfy
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I think the reason we are discussing shield breaks first is because breaking someone's shield puts us in one of if not the most favorable position, and we can use literally any of our setups.
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For example?
Edit: Also, I found this interesting http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-31#post-19340570
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Halfy
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As previously mentioned, if the bomb hits at the right time the uair is guaranteed, at least on some characters. I've managed to do it on DK at 0% with no rage, and I think it was guaranteed.
Also, do throws stale? I don't notice any difference after using the same throw repeatedly.
I've also been thinking about staling moves purposely to make it easier to follow up from them, for example spamming uptilt between the opponent's lives.
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If you'll see the quote I quoted in my previous post, there was no bomb involved.
LotadAlittle
Smash Journeyman
don't bother spamming uptilt between their lives. A move will only stale if it connects with the opponent/an item such as the pac man's hydrant or villager's tree.