Meta Treasure Charts: Metagame Advancement, Research Lab, and AT List.

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well, in addition to this, there's also the fact that most of our options out of a roll are relatively slow.

EDIT: and by options outside of roll (which is essentially his whole moveset) I meant to say that after rolling your fastest move would be a jab that only covers one side of you, and our utilt, which is fast, but we'd have to take into account the time spent rolling + the 9 frames before we have a hitbox out from our utilt.

I definitely agree with this. This is really what will end up holding back the use of our amazing dodges as compared to Fox for example. Anyway, I just thought it was so weird having a good roll that I just had to bring it to everyone's attention. I was so used to thinking that roll is a plague to be avoided, but it would seem that it's now a totally viable option, even if we immediately run away. I remember playing Toon early on and having a friend say, wow Toon's roll is actually pretty good, and I immediately dismissed him out of hand XD. It was just so ingrained in my way of thinking that I could not even consider roll as a good option.

****I'VE GOT SOMETHING TO ADD, and double posting is bad, so here:
So you know how it's really hard to gimp someone with Toon because nair is tiny, zair doesn't have as much of an effect as it did in Brawl (not to mention, our recovery is worse and we fall faster, so it's not like we can run off -> zair anymore), and fair just takes so long to start up?
Well, our bomb fuse is REALLY short in this game. We just need to stall for a tiny amount of time before it'll explode on us. So, we can pull out a bomb, fullhop offstage, double jump, Spin Attack them (wow, a long duration hitbox that makes us rise!), let our bomb explode, and come back to the stage.
We can go really far offstage HORIZONTALLY above the level of the stage. Again with a crappy ascii picture:

----------------------============================-----------------

if === is the surface of the stage and --- is an imaginary line extending from that surface (so from the ledge, really), we can go pretty far horizontally.

It's going to be a super situational thing to do. pulling out a bomb, fullhopping, DJing, and THEN Spin Attack takes a long time to do. The only situation this could be useful in is when the opponent is sent offstage and *almost* dies.

No, Fullhop bomb pull -> dj -> spin attack will not work. The bomb doesn't explode early enough, especially because fullhop bomb pull means that the bomb will start its fuse at the peak of your jump as opposed to the whole duration.

Also, you may sometimes need to drift in freefall for a bit before the bomb explodes. So if the opponent airdodges through and the bomb doesn't explode early enough, it'll be pretty bad. Also, we're left without our double jump, which is REALLY bad if the opponent actually survives.

Hmm. I guess this is pretty interesting, though not without it's issues which you yourself have already pointed out, i.e. the opponent needs to have already almost been killed to give us enough time and the fact that Up-B leaves us open, but then there's also a big issue of predictability. It's not even about whether the opponent will be tricked by this twice, it's like, you're jumping off-stage with a bomb, using your DJ, the opponent is diagonally up above you... what do you think is going to happen? In any case, I think it's great that you're thinking outside the box, and this is the thread to do it in.

 

[Theis]

Would any one like to help research/test if its possible to phoenix bomb the big bomb custom? the setup im trying to do is sh > forward throw > airdodge into explosion in hopes that ill get a second bomb after the explosion. is this possible? or are phoenix bombs only possible with default bombs?

Edit: Nevermind, i got the tech to work but the frame where the phoenix bomb is possible is about 1 or 2 frames after the explosion and im pretty sure you need to hit your oponent which makes it impossible to preemptive an airdodge to catch a second bomb (unless you hit your opponent) and even if you do get the second bomb it explodes almost immediately.

 

[Moffe]

The fact that you can DJ out of a SH Fair is mentioned in the guide. It's worth noting however, as you did, that if you do choose to land, you may as well get the Nair landing lag or use a special instead of going through the Fair landing lag. @Artemis: I've edited in this information to the guide.

Bet you know this one but If you do a sh fair bomb catch you can also use bomb throw before landing which gives you very little lag and possible follow ups!


Btw, had some leftover time for smash today! Found this tech! Never seen anyone use it!

Anyone familiar with this? Seems very nice for mixups and easy to implement in gameplay.

Very easy and simple actually, you just have to be extremely quick on the jump cancel (almost jump+a simultaneously), and you have enough time to press neutral a for a insta lagless bomb catch (im not doing it at nearly potential max speed in video) I found this by an accident trying to research another technique which was not far as useful as this xD

Edit: Bomb cloning happens pretty frequent using this tech somehow...

 

[Halfy]

I'm not anywhere near my Wii u right now, so does anyone know if you can press down to keep momentum from the zair swing while moving straight up towards the ledge?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Bet you know this one but If you do a sh fair bomb catch you can also use bomb throw before landing which gives you very little lag and possible follow ups!


Btw, had some leftover time for smash today! Found this tech! Never seen anyone use it!

Anyone familiar with this? Seems very nice for mixups and easy to implement in gameplay.

Very easy and simple actually, you just have to be extremely quick on the jump cancel (almost jump+a simultaneously), and you have enough time to press neutral a for a insta lagless bomb catch (im not doing it at nearly potential max speed in video) I found this by an accident trying to research another technique which was not far as useful as this xD

Edit: Bomb cloning happens pretty frequent using this tech somehow...

The SH Fair to bomb throw I made mention of when I edited the guide.

And that variation of the bomb fake out was already mentioned in this thread. It's 'how to perform 5'.

I'm not anywhere near my Wii u right now, so does anyone know if you can press down to keep momentum from the zair swing while moving straight up towards the ledge?

If you're wondering whether or not you can cancel the tether by hitting down while reeling it in / retracting it, then the answer is no.

 

[Moffe]

The SH Fair to bomb throw I made mention of when I edited the guide.

And that variation of the bomb fake out was already mentioned in this thread. It's 'how to perform 5'.

If you're wondering whether or not you can cancel the tether by hitting down while reeling it in / retracting it, then the answer is no.

Ah yeah youre correct! Thanks, and sorry for posting already known info! Btw I think I have a bow tech which is not written up, ill make a vid of it when I have time!

 

[Yackabean]

I'm excited cause I was discussing default arrows earlier. Please do share :3

 

[Moffe]

It's not a biggy! It is basically about fire arrows, its alot of fun things you can do with grab. If you have one fire arrow on ground and you tether someone through it they take additional damage, BUT if you have two arrows there they take damage from the arrows and get knocked up. This is a kill move from like 95-100 (depending character) and up because it comboes with uair.

Also this works even better if you are standing on the arrows and perform forward throw, then you can get true comboes in earlier percentage

(You can also sweet spot with one fire arrow with backthrow and get same effect as two)

Also ledge canceling is a must here because with it you can have two arrows on ground in same place for quite a while.

I also experiment with comboing with fire arrow in general which has a few nice uses, and easy ones especially from 0-20%

this works on all characters I believe from 0%
-Forward (and back throw on mid heavy-heavy characters) throw on preshot firearrow -> fair = 26% or double hit nair which is not too difficult to pull off as you have quite a lot of time

But I manged to do these two on a c.falcon (wonder what you can do on chars like fox...!)

- backthrow on preshot fire arrow -> foxtrot perfect pivot uptilt string -> uair

If you backthrow on a fire arrow they get sent back to you and you have more time/options


(this next one has to be from 0. Managed to do this one once or twice)
-forward throw on preshot fire arrow -> zair -> nair (trips) uptilt string ->uair = 54% or something, but this one is not guaranteed. I think you can easily DI in a way to not get comboed out of this one

Edit: I also think RAR special reversal works very well with these kind of traps!

I think RAR special reversal should have its own spot on the list due to it being so useful sometimes.

Got a good name for the double fire arrow thingy? Grab Explosion?
Fire Grab?

Also a question! I can't seem to pull off ledge cancel by sliding backwards can anyone confirm that?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Also a question! I can't seem to pull off ledge cancel by sliding backwards can anyone confirm that?

Yes, that is correct. That's why I made a special mention in the OP of the fact that it must be done while you're going forwards and you have to fall off forwards in order for it to work.

 

[Halfy]

If you're wondering whether or not you can cancel the tether by hitting down while reeling it in / retracting it, then the answer is no.

That's exactly what I was asking. Thanks.

 

[RancidLeaf]

It happens quite frequently to me that an opponent will hold shield when Tink is moving towards them with a bomb in hand. If we throw the bomb at them it'll bounce and we will be able to catch it again. We can literally use any of our aerials to catch the bomb again.

I believe that our fair is the best option to re-catch seeing how it's the only aerial that when short hopped will allow us to act before touching the ground again, thus allowing us to throw the bomb after doing it.

While playing I've gotten into this 'loop' of sorts, where the opponent will be pressured to remain on shield, while I cycle through a few bomb throw > fair re-catch. We must also take into account that our fair is fairly ... :^) ... strong, standing at 13% which would put our opponent into 5 frames of shield stun, this and how much our fair knocks back shields allows us to retreat somewhat safely before we can throw our bomb.

What options do you guys prefer when re-catching bombs with aerials?

 

[Moffe]

thats a nice way to do it, i usually just used retreating nairs but the fair knockback and stun sounds nice, didnt think of that, thanks!

or grab is also an option, but maybe not as safe..

example of a similar situation I stumbled on today https://vine.co/v/eBVhvhuPWgZ




Btw putting this out there! Any thoughts on this?

 

[Yackabean]

Just wanna post about doing a C4 the old normal brawl way. I know we all said the timing was really difficult but I think once you have the visual cue in your mind it's cake-walk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_hkpGEf60c

Don't ask what my camera was doing. It always does silly stuff like this like it's acting all trippy.
Anyway from what I've noticed about the old Short hop bomb pull C4 method. It seems like it's best to press Z when you see Tinks foot sort of touch the ground. It's like you z-drop as you land honestly except not quite. Tricky, but it might be useful. So far I've tested two bombs on the floor against Sonics spindash but it doesn't really stop him >.>

Btw putting this out there! Any thoughts on this?

O.o I mean I wish I could do it. The inputs are quite demanding. Mind sharing how consistent the inputs have to be and which ones particular are needed? Only managed it once in 1/2 speed in training.

 

[RancidLeaf]

@ Moffe
I think grabbing after a bomb throw is legitimate, as long as the opponent is conditioned to shield after a bounced bomb, which should be the case most of the times, since the most expected thing for a Tink to do is follow the bomb throw with an aerial in order to combo from a bomb that we assume is going to hit.

Used sparingly, the grab sounds like a good mix-up

 

[Yackabean]

YOOO I've got some interesting new technology on our JC throw for us!
So what I'm going to name this is "Spinning JC throw" Or birling JC throw. Sounds more flamboyant and interesting XD

Anyway explaining this piece of tech.

So we all know when we JC throw a bomb backwards the bomb gets thrown a rather far distance compared to JC throwing a bomb normally forwards yeah? (We can even catch a bomb from a forward dashing JC throw) Well we can keep the distance of the backwards JC throw whilst running towards an oppnent.

This is where the "spin" comes in. so when you are running towards an opponent, you can fakeout you'll throw the bomb behind you but instantly JC throw it forwards towards the opponent again making Toon Link do a little spin and throw the bomb farther than he normally wold from JC Throwing the bomb forwards.

Main Use: Gives more distance on our JC Bomb throw making bomb combos on lighter characters somewhat easier especially because we can close the gap between the bomb quicker than a backwards JC throw. Bomb > Fair becomes a much more reliable kill option.

Secondary use: The "spin" Toon Link does when performing this is somewhat deceiving to look at It almost looks like you're about to turn away and do something else but you just turn around again by throwing the bomb forwards with the JC input. So yes, this somewhat works as a fake out.

Edit: Zan has mentioned that he has tested this before and their is a bit of a drawback to it. The time it takes to throw the bomb is slightly slower than throwing the bomb normally from a JC Throw. But I guess it's a matter of range over distance. You could opt to smash throw from a forward JC throw however you're most likely going to have to stop mid-dash to do the input unless you claw the controller and use the c-stick to smash throw the bomb.

I'm going to upload another video later today showing what it looks like and how to perform!

 

[Moffe]

O.o I mean I wish I could do it. The inputs are quite demanding. Mind sharing how consistent the inputs have to be and which ones particular are needed? Only managed it once in 1/2 speed in training.

It's actually very easy with B sticking ;P that's the secret kinda. Holding forward meanwhile bsticking backwards results in a frame perfect mirrored reversal. And the second variant one I just do the same just reverse it again. I've actually brought it up before on Skype, but making a video always gets the attention x]

The momentum is perfected even just as a short hop forward bstick backwards. Try it out (don't do it instant out of jump or it won't work

So the question is.. Is it worth it to switch the c stick for this AT?

Edit: I gave it some time and I actually mastered it now without B stick! Its possible but the timings are really fast, but once you know it you can do like 95% of the time, just like when you get the timing of C4


what should we call this AT? Wave glide?

 

[Yackabean]

Ugh I really wanna be able to perform this a lot but I think I can do without it. I just can't change my c-stick to specials. If I wanna learn it I'll probably do so without it. This is rather neat this find though.

As for the name I dunoo. It's a reversal of some sort I guess.
I kinda wanna call it something like "Acute Boomerang throw"
Cause the angle we go at is super sharp from the momentum boost we get.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I should really reply to this thread... I just hate having to be that guy who comes in and spoils all the fun.


The boomerang thing would be called a Glide Wavebounce and would go just under the Glide Reversal. Is it worth switching to b-stick? Imo, no. The benefits of c-stick or a-stick still far outweigh the benefits of a b-stick.

Just wanna post about doing a C4 the old normal brawl way. I know we all said the timing was really difficult but I think once you have the visual cue in your mind it's cake-walk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_hkpGEf60c

Don't ask what my camera was doing. It always does silly stuff like this like it's acting all trippy.
Anyway from what I've noticed about the old Short hop bomb pull C4 method. It seems like it's best to press Z when you see Tinks foot sort of touch the ground. It's like you z-drop as you land honestly except not quite. Tricky, but it might be useful. So far I've tested two bombs on the floor against Sonics spindash but it doesn't really stop him >.>

The SH bomb drop is still listed in the OP. This is actually how I usually C4 bombs when I need to test something. It's not too difficult. Hit Z slightly too early or too late though and you get a bomb throw. Being able to figure out which you did, i.e. too early or too late, is the key to doing this consistently. It's also essential that you buffer the bomb pull, but that's assumed.

YOOO I've got some interesting new technology on our JC throw for us!
So what I'm going to name this is "Spinning JC throw" Or birling JC throw. Sounds more flamboyant and interesting XD

Anyway explaining this piece of tech.

So we all know when we JC throw a bomb backwards the bomb gets thrown a rather far distance compared to JC throwing a bomb normally forwards yeah? (We can even catch a bomb from a forward dashing JC throw) Well we can keep the distance of the backwards JC throw whilst running towards an oppnent.

This is where the "spin" comes in. so when you are running towards an opponent, you can fakeout you'll throw the bomb behind you but instantly JC throw it forwards towards the opponent again making Toon Link do a little spin and throw the bomb farther than he normally wold from JC Throwing the bomb forwards.

Main Use: Gives more distance on our JC Bomb throw making bomb combos on lighter characters somewhat easier especially because we can close the gap between the bomb quicker than a backwards JC throw. Bomb > Fair becomes a much more reliable kill option.

Secondary use: The "spin" Toon Link does when performing this is somewhat deceiving to look at It almost looks like you're about to turn away and do something else but you just turn around again by throwing the bomb forwards with the JC input. So yes, this somewhat works as a fake out.

Edit: Zan has mentioned that he has tested this before and their is a bit of a drawback to it. The time it takes to throw the bomb is slightly slower than throwing the bomb normally from a JC Throw. But I guess it's a matter of range over distance. You could opt to smash throw from a forward JC throw however you're most likely going to have to stop mid-dash to do the input unless you claw the controller and use the c-stick to smash throw the bomb.

I'm going to upload another video later today showing what it looks like and how to perform!

Eh.
I wouldn't call this 'new' for starters. I actually do this all the time with Link and I have it listed as one way to do his 'soft throw' tech. Essentially, doing a JC throw out of a pivot isn't new to me in the slightest. As for the distance the bomb travels in a normal JC throw forwards, that all depends on how you execute it. It is perfectly possible to do a smash thrown JC throw forwards without any pivot before hand. Either claw / use a shoulder button for the jump then use the c-stick set to smash for the throw input (recommended), or simply return the joystick to neutral before/during the jump and then hit forwards + attack. Seriously though, try setting a shoulder button to jump; it helps. Using the c-stick for the throw also means that you can continue to hold the joystick forwards the whole time and it will automatically buffer a dash out of the JC throw on the first actionable frame, which makes follows ups such as Fair super easy.
The whole point of a 'fake out' is that you don't end up throwing the bomb, or rather, you throw it then catch it very soon after. So spining and then throwing the bomb is not a fake out.
Is it good to know that pivots can be cancelled at any point with a JC throw? Sure. Was this previously generally unknown though? Surely not.

 

[Moffe]

I should really reply to this thread... I just hate having to be that guy who comes in and spoils all the fun.


The boomerang thing would be called a Glide Wavebounce and would go just under the Glide Reversal. Is it worth switching to b-stick? Imo, no. The benefits of c-stick or a-stick still far outweigh the benefits of a b-stick.

I dont use the bstick. Its just a way to do it super easy if you want to get a feel of it.

I use a stick. I think it should have its own AT or at least its own way of performing because its totally different timing to do as a glide than just a normal wavebounce at the same time as it is a very effective technique when mastered, try for yourself!

I dont think it comes natural to mind by learning glide reversal, at least not with max momentum.

I want to call it Wave glide due to it is as you say, a wavebounce glide and wavebounce glide reversal, but its so much easier to say! (And cooler !)

Also i got told to post this here that I can confirm double jump out of izac fair (and also c4 of course)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I dont use the bstick. Its just a way to do it super easy if you want to get a feel of it.

I use a stick. I think it should have its own AT or at least its own way of performing because its totally different timing to do as a glide than just a normal wavebounce at the same time as it is a very effective technique when mastered, try for yourself!

I dont think it comes natural to mind by learning glide reversal, at least not with max momentum.

I want to call it Wave glide due to it is as you say, a wavebounce glide and wavebounce glide reversal, but its so much easier to say! (And cooler !)

Also i got told to post this here that I can confirm double jump out of izac fair (and also c4 of course)

Yes I'm aware of how it works.
Basically in this game apparently you can do boomerang glides backwards, i.e. in the same direction as always, only sliding off/throwing the boomerang backwards. [For those wondering, no this wasn't possible in Brawl because in Brawl we were unable to throw the boomerang backwards directly out of a Run.] Then all you're doing is reversing this. The end result is basically just a well timed wavebounce to get that extra glide effect. It's quite difficult. I am completely aware of the fact that there's a difference between just a normal wavebounce and this extra glide effect wavebounce. It's all to do with the timing and speed of the initial throw backwards so that the root of the wavebounce is a backwards boomerang glide.
For those trying to do it, it would probably help if you practised on a stage with a larger platform just because the BF platforms are awkwardly short imo. What I'd further recommend is that you first practice getting a backwards boomerang glide, and only once you've got the hang of that should you then try to hit the joystick back the way you were originally facing again to reverse your momentum. If you're not getting the boost of momentum from the glide, then screw around with your timing (i.e. your spacing from the edge); don't just keep doing the same thing. You'll know when you got it right.

I prefer to keep the names of things standardised wherever possible.

 

[Moffe]

Yes I'm aware of how it works.
Basically in this game apparently you can do boomerang glides backwards, i.e. in the same direction as always, only sliding off/throwing the boomerang backwards. [For those wondering, no this wasn't possible in Brawl because in Brawl we were unable to throw the boomerang backwards directly out of a Run.] Then all you're doing is reversing this. The end result is basically just a well timed wavebounce to get that extra glide effect. It's quite difficult. I am completely aware of the fact that there's a difference between just a normal wavebounce and this extra glide effect wavebounce. It's all to do with the timing and speed of the initial throw backwards so that the root of the wavebounce is a backwards boomerang glide.
For those trying to do it, it would probably help if you practised on a stage with a larger platform just because the BF platforms are awkwardly short imo. What I'd further recommend is that you first practice getting a backwards boomerang glide, and only once you've got the hang of that should you then try to hit the joystick back the way you were originally facing again to reverse your momentum. If you're not getting the boost of momentum from the glide, then screw around with your timing (i.e. your spacing from the edge); don't just keep doing the same thing. You'll know when you got it right.

I prefer to keep the names of things standardised wherever possible.

Yeah thats a nice and easy step by step way to practice it, but what I meant is that I think this shouldnt just keep this AT under the name glide reversal, it should have its own name or at least its own kind of spot in the AT section due its difference in execution compared to bith wavebounce and normal glide, also due to its effectiveness (i can confirm already just using it on computers for now) on all platform stages. Also the backward throw can be effective offstage in general (bair them offstage + returning boomerang and being able to tether after due to facing the stage)

I can live with that I cant name the AT "Wave Glide" I just thought it was a cool and easy suggestion. Just short for wavebounce glide. I might be childish but I really enjoy to be able to name an AT by yourself... Makes me want me want research deeper for more!

I hope I am not being disrespectful or anything as I really appreciate the effort you have made on the forums and who knows if we would even have this thread if not for your contribution

 

[CURRY]

This wasn't possible in Brawl because in Brawl we were unable to throw the boomerang backwards directly out of a Run.

Grounded B-reversal boomerang.
Yeah, I decided to mess around with Brawl Lucas and saw it on their boards recently. Why have we never thought of doing this? :/

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah thats a nice and easy step by step way to practice it, but what I meant is that I think this shouldnt just keep this AT under the name glide reversal, it should have its own name or at least its own kind of spot in the AT section due its difference in execution compared to bith wavebounce and normal glide, also due to its effectiveness (i can confirm already just using it on computers for now) on all platform stages. Also the backward throw can be effective offstage in general (bair them offstage + returning boomerang and being able to tether after due to facing the stage)

I can live with that I cant name the AT "Wave Glide" I just thought it was a cool and easy suggestion. Just short for wavebounce glide. I might be childish but I really enjoy to be able to name an AT by yourself... Makes me want me want research deeper for more!

I hope I am not being disrespectful or anything as I really appreciate the effort you have made on the forums and who knows if we would even have this thread if not for your contribution

How exactly is the execution so different to a boomerang glide or glide reversal that they can't be named a Backwards Boomerang Glide and Glide Wavebounce respectively? It operates under the exact same mechanics, i.e. 'You must time the boomerang throw at the very edge in order to get the boost, and then this can be reversed.' - this applies to both the old boomerang gliding stuff and this new variation. Explain to me with words why exactly they should be treated as a different tech and not just a variation of the same underlying tech? My motivation is to group like-things together and name things after a certain pre-established formula all for the sake of clarity, organisation and precision.

Grounded B-reversal boomerang.
Yeah, I decided to mess around with Brawl Lucas and saw it on their boards recently. Why have we never thought of doing this? :/

>_>
... That's why I put so much emphasis on the word 'directly', as in no need for any reversal or anything, you just straight up throw it backwards out of a run, and this couldn't be done in Brawl. It allows us to do a running wavebounce for example, which was impossible in Brawl.

 

[Moffe]

How exactly is the execution so different to a boomerang glide or glide reversal that they can't be named a Backwards Boomerang Glide and Glide Wavebounce respectively? It operates under the exact same mechanics, i.e. 'You must time the boomerang throw at the very edge in order to get the boost, and then this can be reversed.' - this applies to both the old boomerang gliding stuff and this new variation. Explain to me with words why exactly they should be treated as a different tech and not just a variation of the same underlying tech? My motivation is to group like-things together and name things after a certain pre-established formula all for the sake of clarity, organisation and precision.

When you do a normal wavebounce you have much more time to do the first step you can even start sliding first. To do the waveglide its not enkugh just to time the boomerang throw you need to be so to say perfectly timed simultaneously with stick and special and quick enough on the stick to not get into slide animation and then reverse it to get max momentum.

Also its definately an AT under wavebounce glide! (Wavebounce into a glide)I never said it couldn't be named that, I just thought it would be easier and cool. It's just shortened! And it looks like a wave, at least the reversed one. ^^

But it is okay to name it backwards and wavebounce glide if it causes trouble with getting stuff in order!

 

[ephOE]

Apparently Toon is equal with the best dodges in the game. http://smashboards.com/threads/roll-air-dodge-frame-data.401323/
I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe we should consider doing more rolls/spotdodges/airdodges. [That really does sound stupid...]

I know I'm a little late to be discussing this, but this data intrigued me a bit so I've been thinking/practicing a lot with this in mind. I wouldn't say we should roll more, I don't think that's the way to take advantage of this. Don't roll harder, roll smarter.

Let's consider Yoshi. According to that thread, his roll is the second worst in the game (considering he has the best shield in the game, I am very much okay with this). Yoshi's jab on the other hand is one of the best in the game in terms of raw data and utility in relation to the rest of his toolkit. So while Yoshi has good out-of-roll options, he has a piss poor roll. Characters like Ganondorf and Dedede would love to be able to roll > jab or F/Dtilt. Meanwhile, characters like Greninja have forward roll > jab as a basic tool in the neutral. Diddy's roll > dtilt, yeah?

So where does that leave Toon Link? Roll > jab/tilts are mediocre, not horrible but not good enough to be standard options. If the other player is abusing rolls, this does put us in a good position because you can answer a roll with your own roll, and in Toon Link's case his will most likely be the better one. That opens up more OoR options.

Obviously there are times in Smash 4 when rolling is a good option. We don't like to think about it but there are good times to roll. For Toon Link this means that when it's time to roll, it's even safer than when most other characters do it. Add this to Toon Link's general mobility and the fact that he is usually holding a bomb (a good OoS option). You can almost think of it like a passive ability, giving Toon Link a little extra help in escaping pressure. In other words, don't abuse rolls (or any dodge), but if a good opportunity presents itself you can know that it's a bit safer than it might be if you weren't playing Toon Link. Unlike characters like Metaknight, Sonic, and Diddy, Toon Link is still going to be generally reactionary with his rolls, so his normal mobile state is going to give him options, rather than be an option.

tl;dr if you're smart with your dodges then there's no need to change how you play, just know that TL's dodge frame data is on your side

If you're playing online, roll all you want. It works.

Someone also mentioned jump > air dodge as a way to escape boxing situations, and I've found that works to an extent. It's a lot safer if we have a bomb in hand and/or a boomerang available to throw.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I know I'm a little late to be discussing this, but this data intrigued me a bit so I've been thinking/practicing a lot with this in mind. I wouldn't say we should roll more, I don't think that's the way to take advantage of this. Don't roll harder, roll smarter.

Let's consider Yoshi. According to that thread, his roll is the second worst in the game (considering he has the best shield in the game, I am very much okay with this). Yoshi's jab on the other hand is one of the best in the game in terms of raw data and utility in relation to the rest of his toolkit. So while Yoshi has good out-of-roll options, he has a piss poor roll. Characters like Ganondorf and Dedede would love to be able to roll > jab or F/Dtilt. Meanwhile, characters like Greninja have forward roll > jab as a basic tool in the neutral. Diddy's roll > dtilt, yeah?

So where does that leave Toon Link? Roll > jab/tilts are mediocre, not horrible but not good enough to be standard options. If the other player is abusing rolls, this does put us in a good position because you can answer a roll with your own roll, and in Toon Link's case his will most likely be the better one. That opens up more OoR options.

Obviously there are times in Smash 4 when rolling is a good option. We don't like to think about it but there are good times to roll. For Toon Link this means that when it's time to roll, it's even safer than when most other characters do it. Add this to Toon Link's general mobility and the fact that he is usually holding a bomb (a good OoS option). You can almost think of it like a passive ability, giving Toon Link a little extra help in escaping pressure. In other words, don't abuse rolls (or any dodge), but if a good opportunity presents itself you can know that it's a bit safer than it might be if you weren't playing Toon Link. Unlike characters like Metaknight, Sonic, and Diddy, Toon Link is still going to be generally reactionary with his rolls, so his normal mobile state is going to give him options, rather than be an option.

tl;dr if you're smart with your dodges then there's no need to change how you play, just know that TL's dodge frame data is on your side

If you're playing online, roll all you want. It works.

Someone also mentioned jump > air dodge as a way to escape boxing situations, and I've found that works to an extent. It's a lot safer if we have a bomb in hand and/or a boomerang available to throw.

I wouldn't recommend rolling when they roll. If you're able to react/predict their roll to make rolling a viable option, why not just punish it or put some real pressure on them?
I think that all it really tells us is that if you want to use a roll to escape an awkward situation, e.g. you have no faith in your OoS options helping and just want to reset the situation, then rolling is no longer a trash option. What should you be doing out of a roll? Probably not attacking, just more running/evading until you've reset back to neutral.

 

[ephOE]

I think that all it really tells us is that if you want to use a roll to escape an awkward situation, e.g. you have no faith in your OoS options helping and just want to reset the situation, then rolling is no longer a trash option. What should you be doing out of a roll? Probably not attacking, just more running/evading until you've reset back to neutral.

Exactly this. It's not a game-changing revelation by any means, but it's good to know.

 

[Ikes]

I found a neat setup for toon link starting for most characters around 0-10% and working up til around 40-50% (compensating for weight class and fall speed, etc, so some values for certaincharacters would be different)

You can throw down and fast fall a bomb from above your opponent before you hit the ground, and immediately act on the ground into an uptilt (most of the time two utilts will work) which leads into most of TL's moves

For faster fallers I know that bair works when you start the combo around 15-25%, F-smash works from 10% and im not sure how high that goes, I know for a fact that it will only work properly on fox around 10+%, at 0 he falls too fast and hits the ground after the bomb hits, so I dont think you can hit him with the utilt cause im pretty sure he can shield

I know that jab, fshmas, usmash, dsmash, and nair work on fox at 10-20%, bair works on all characters and differing percent ranges (though for some characters the timing is a bit different so compensate for their weight class and fall speed), fair doesnt work since it's got too much startup lag (from what I understand)

using bair is a 0-25% guaranteed setup, fsmash is 0-40, nair is 0-20, dsmash is 0-27 if facing opponent, 0-21 if facing away

it's a bit of a minor setup but I thought I might mention it since it seems like ap retty widely applicable combo.

will post a video when I have one to show

also if this has been mentioned elsewhere please let me know

 

[ephOE]

What kind of mileage does Toon Link get out of footstools? Footstool to bomb (and then maybe Uair?) or Dair are the first things that come to mind.

 

[Teshie U]

footstool dair works, but they can tech it immediately afterward

 

[Moffe]

I found a neat setup for toon link starting for most characters around 0-10% and working up til around 40-50% (compensating for weight class and fall speed, etc, so some values for certaincharacters would be different)

You can throw down and fast fall a bomb from above your opponent before you hit the ground, and immediately act on the ground into an uptilt (most of the time two utilts will work) which leads into most of TL's moves

For faster fallers I know that bair works when you start the combo around 15-25%, F-smash works from 10% and im not sure how high that goes, I know for a fact that it will only work properly on fox around 10+%, at 0 he falls too fast and hits the ground after the bomb hits, so I dont think you can hit him with the utilt cause im pretty sure he can shield

I know that jab, fshmas, usmash, dsmash, and nair work on fox at 10-20%, bair works on all characters and differing percent ranges (though for some characters the timing is a bit different so compensate for their weight class and fall speed), fair doesnt work since it's got too much startup lag (from what I understand)

using bair is a 0-25% guaranteed setup, fsmash is 0-40, nair is 0-20, dsmash is 0-27 if facing opponent, 0-21 if facing away

it's a bit of a minor setup but I thought I might mention it since it seems like ap retty widely applicable combo.

will post a video when I have one to show

also if this has been mentioned elsewhere please let me know

Nice find! Scary if they spot dodge roll though xD setting yourself up for a punish.

Btw you can combo at higher percent if you perfect pivot -> utilt after bomb which gives you better position

 

[CURRY]

With the A+B smash thing, I just realized that you can JC smash throw forwards without using a smash attack c-stick (Not like that's useful anyway.)
You can also do way easier c-stickless foxtrot fsmashes with the A+B smash... not like Toon ever uses fsmash though T____T

For easy access, Toon definitely benefits from Smash c-stick more than the tilts, but the A+B smash opens up options for people with tilt c-sticks.
We might consider maybe even SWITCHING to tilt c-stick. I remember the smash attack c-stick being much better for Toon, but... besides the foxtrot smash and smash throws, I forgot what other things Toon gains from smash c-stick. What does he gain again?

Sooo why am I considering using tilt c-stick? Those of you with smash c-sticks: TRY the tilt c-stick for a little. Do some aerials. Feel how SMOOTH it is. Sure, we can flick the smash c-stick to retain our momentum, but we don't do perfect 1-frame flicks. Tilt cstick aerials are seriously so smooth compared to flicking the smash c-stick. >.>

EDIT:
Never mind, I actually just only got really lazy about flicking the c-stick fast enough for there to not be a noticeable difference.
Nevertheless... A+B smash still opens up new options for tilt c-stickers.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

With the A+B smash thing, I just realized that you can JC smash throw forwards without using a smash attack c-stick (Not like that's useful anyway.)
You can also do way easier c-stickless foxtrot fsmashes with the A+B smash... not like Toon ever uses fsmash though T____T

For easy access, Toon definitely benefits from Smash c-stick more than the tilts, but the A+B smash opens up options for people with tilt c-sticks.
We might consider maybe even SWITCHING to tilt c-stick. I remember the smash attack c-stick being much better for Toon, but... besides the foxtrot smash and smash throws, I forgot what other things Toon gains from smash c-stick. What does he gain again?

Sooo why am I considering using tilt c-stick? Those of you with smash c-sticks: TRY the tilt c-stick for a little. Do some aerials. Feel how SMOOTH it is. Sure, we can flick the smash c-stick to retain our momentum, but we don't do perfect 1-frame flicks. Tilt cstick aerials are seriously so smooth compared to flicking the smash c-stick. >.>

EDIT:
Never mind, I actually just only got really lazy about flicking the c-stick fast enough for there to not be a noticeable difference.
Nevertheless... A+B smash still opens up new options for tilt c-stickers.

I love you. I've been using the a-stick for a while because I play Link too and he needs it. I'm going to try this out.

 

[Moffe]

With the A+B smash thing, I just realized that you can JC smash throw forwards without using a smash attack c-stick (Not like that's useful anyway.)
You can also do way easier c-stickless foxtrot fsmashes with the A+B smash... not like Toon ever uses fsmash though T____T

For easy access, Toon definitely benefits from Smash c-stick more than the tilts, but the A+B smash opens up options for people with tilt c-sticks.
We might consider maybe even SWITCHING to tilt c-stick. I remember the smash attack c-stick being much better for Toon, but... besides the foxtrot smash and smash throws, I forgot what other things Toon gains from smash c-stick. What does he gain again?

Sooo why am I considering using tilt c-stick? Those of you with smash c-sticks: TRY the tilt c-stick for a little. Do some aerials. Feel how SMOOTH it is. Sure, we can flick the smash c-stick to retain our momentum, but we don't do perfect 1-frame flicks. Tilt cstick aerials are seriously so smooth compared to flicking the smash c-stick. >.>

EDIT:
Never mind, I actually just only got really lazy about flicking the c-stick fast enough for there to not be a noticeable difference.
Nevertheless... A+B smash still opens up new options for tilt c-stickers.

I always use tilt stick due to having control of having weak throws when throwing upwards if i need + perfect pivot utilts or ftilt. Been experimenting with a+b too but never thought of the smash throw, thats really nice thanks alot!

Btw I use fsmash quite alot in a few matches depending on character and had success with it, I feel its safe to use vs people who use shield alot and dont have some kind of fast oos option with reach

 

[Halfy]

With the A+B smash thing, I just realized that you can JC smash throw forwards without using a smash attack c-stick (Not like that's useful anyway.)
You can also do way easier c-stickless foxtrot fsmashes with the A+B smash... not like Toon ever uses fsmash though T____T

For easy access, Toon definitely benefits from Smash c-stick more than the tilts, but the A+B smash opens up options for people with tilt c-sticks.
We might consider maybe even SWITCHING to tilt c-stick. I remember the smash attack c-stick being much better for Toon, but... besides the foxtrot smash and smash throws, I forgot what other things Toon gains from smash c-stick. What does he gain again?

Sooo why am I considering using tilt c-stick? Those of you with smash c-sticks: TRY the tilt c-stick for a little. Do some aerials. Feel how SMOOTH it is. Sure, we can flick the smash c-stick to retain our momentum, but we don't do perfect 1-frame flicks. Tilt cstick aerials are seriously so smooth compared to flicking the smash c-stick. >.>

EDIT:
Never mind, I actually just only got really lazy about flicking the c-stick fast enough for there to not be a noticeable difference.
Nevertheless... A+B smash still opens up new options for tilt c-stickers.

Don't forget we can do a pivot Fsmash out of a dash. I usually do this if I read a spotdodge or a roll while I'm approaching. Its good for mixups because people think I'm going for a dash > Usmash, but I run through them and Fsmash.

 

[Theis]

I discovered an interesting ledgetrump option for toon link and its practical enough to use in real matches. if you dash attack at the ledge and hold forward, you will automatically grab the ledge after the dash attack is over. i think the way it works is since the dash attack kills the momentum at which you run at if it isnt canceled, so you practically start walking off the ledge from 0 momentum which puts you close enough to auto snap. its a great way to hide your intentions of ledge trumping your opponent and the best part is if they dont hop back on stage the D-air is a free spike.

Edit: at the ledge f-tilting and f-smashing also work (although its a bit more strict on positioning) so it might be a cool idea to mix up our attacks to adjust the timing.

 

[LotadAlittle]

I'm not sure if these have been discovered yet or if they're even classed as an AT but I found 3 different ways to safe spike people with dair from on-stage. I have found all of these methods to be quite practical and have been able to pull them off quite frequently on for glory.

The first way only works if your opponent is recovering high. When they are just about to get onstage (so they're only just offstage and above the ledge) if you jump above them and dair so you can connect with the initial frames of the hitbox you will end up landing safely onstage while they are spiked to their doom in the abyss below. I have also managed to pull this off a few times when they recover low. It uses the same method but you can only do it if they don't sweetspot the ledge. This is most common against characters who have a hard time sweetspotting with up-b such as: Marth, Samus and even Mario!

The second method method I use requires a read air dodge and certain percent ranges. If your opponent has a habit of airdodging whenever you are close to them in the air or in the middle of combos then you can simply grab them from the edge of the stage, up throw, jump above them to bait an airdodge and spike with dair. With neutral/bad DI they will be sent down to their death. Maybe not as practical, but still a useful tech to keep in your pocket.

And last but DEFINITELY not least, we have:... *Drumroll* A TRUE COMBO!!! I just found this in the lab the other day and when i did i lost my **** from how simple this is. The only special requirements for this are your opponent around the ledge and a bomb in hand (but you normally should have a bomb in most cases so this isn't too big a deal).
Step one: Run up.
Step two: Jump above them and throw the bomb down so it hits them.
Step three: DAIR FO DAYS!
And like I said, this is a true combo, therefore it is inescapable. But by far the best part is how early this can kill! against characters with terrible recoveries they can fail to return to the stage at around 20%! Now you know why I lost my ****. Most other characters it killed at around 40% (I think anyway, but I'm going to the lab later today with toon link again so I may edit this.). I am still looking for practical ways to set this up, but I got it a few times just when my opponent got back on stage from a neutral get up/ get up attack so that's a possibility.

On one last note: the dair can spike somebody who is on the ledge without invincibility so although I haven't tried this out yet you may be able to ledge trump somebody and dair spike them when they regrab the ledge.

This was my first post on smashboards although I've been using the site for awhile now. I hope this was helpful, just thought I'd give something back to the community which I love in the form of some toon link techs.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I'm not sure if these have been discovered yet or if they're even classed as an AT but I found 3 different ways to safe spike people with dair from on-stage. I have found all of these methods to be quite practical and have been able to pull them off quite frequently on for glory.

The first way only works if your opponent is recovering high. When they are just about to get onstage (so they're only just offstage and above the ledge) if you jump above them and dair so you can connect with the initial frames of the hitbox you will end up landing safely onstage while they are spiked to their doom in the abyss below. I have also managed to pull this off a few times when they recover low. It uses the same method but you can only do it if they don't sweetspot the ledge. This is most common against characters who have a hard time sweetspotting with up-b such as: Marth, Samus and even Mario!

The second method method I use requires a read air dodge and certain percent ranges. If your opponent has a habit of airdodging whenever you are close to them in the air or in the middle of combos then you can simply grab them from the edge of the stage, up throw, jump above them to bait an airdodge and spike with dair. With neutral/bad DI they will be sent down to their death. Maybe not as practical, but still a useful tech to keep in your pocket.

And last but DEFINITELY not least, we have:... *Drumroll* A TRUE COMBO!!! I just found this in the lab the other day and when i did i lost my **** from how simple this is. The only special requirements for this are your opponent around the ledge and a bomb in hand (but you normally should have a bomb in most cases so this isn't too big a deal).
Step one: Run up.
Step two: Jump above them and throw the bomb down so it hits them.
Step three: DAIR FO DAYS!
And like I said, this is a true combo, therefore it is inescapable. But by far the best part is how early this can kill! against characters with terrible recoveries they can fail to return to the stage at around 20%! Now you know why I lost my ****. Most other characters it killed at around 40% (I think anyway, but I'm going to the lab later today with toon link again so I may edit this.). I am still looking for practical ways to set this up, but I got it a few times just when my opponent got back on stage from a neutral get up/ get up attack so that's a possibility.

On one last note: the dair can spike somebody who is on the ledge without invincibility so although I haven't tried this out yet you may be able to ledge trump somebody and dair spike them when they regrab the ledge.

This was my first post on smashboards although I've been using the site for awhile now. I hope this was helpful, just thought I'd give something back to the community which I love in the form of some toon link techs.

Yeah I wouldn't call these AT's perse, and they are also admittedly fairly common knowledge, but I'd say you're still in the right thread nonetheless if you're intention is to advance the metagame with an idea in mind that we should be using more spikes. And I mean, I'll admit that there's some untapped potential there. It's certainly a very strong spike. In case you were wondering, yes the whole ledge trump Dair thing works, just so long as they go back to the ledge. You'd have roughly 20 something frames to hit them.
Anyways, let me just have a think about it.

Well the custom bombs have much shorter fuses, and are also easier to BFO, meaning it's easier to use Dair while holding a Bomb. There is the possibility of drifting forward with a timed bomb throwing the bomb forwards then Dairing. The bomb only does 1% and the distance it sends you would allow you to do it pretty far out off-stage even on low percents e.g. out of a DJ. Drifting out backwards would make this much safer as the bomb is easier to catch though and you wouldn't be required to DJ.
Then there's the short fuse bomb. I did eventually find a way to get the Dair hitbox out while holding the bomb before the bomb explodes (jump out off-stage backwards while pulling a bomb, immediately throw bomb backwards immediately hit Dair to catch the bomb), but the explosion hits the opponent immediately after they get spiked as expected.

I'm thinking that another good way to get Dairs would be when you Jab people who are off stage at the ledge. They won't be able to grab the ledge, then you Dair their DJ; I can see this working. So e.g. Zair to Jab to Dair, or JC bomb throw forwards at low to medium percents to Jab to Dair, or just Jab them at the ledge.

A couple of interesting things you may want to keep in mind about all this:
-The spike hitbox is out for a pretty long time. E.g. if you do a Dair at the peak of a SH, Toon will bop up to a FH height, and then the Dair will have an active spike hitbox right up until you land (at which point you get the landing hitbox). In other words, you need to FH then Dair anywhere above a SH in order to get the non-spike hitbox out before you land.
-In smash 4, it seems to be the case that the more knockback a move inflicts, the more you can DI it. Essentially what this means is that at low to medium percents, people simply won't be able to DI the Dair back on stage if they are slightly off stage (while you were on stage). So you know, if you ever get a Dair like that and you're thinking 'I was lucky they didn't DI', well you'd be wrong.

 

[Moffe]

Speaking of dair comboes!

I've noticed that if you nair (with tripping) someone offstage at low percent (works on bf lower platforms to offstage also)

You are almost guaranteed a dair spike follow up through the ground due to most people double jumping right after and the timing is perfect for dair to collide and it's kind of hard to react to I guess. At least with wifi lag. Extra easy on big character ofc.

And this only works on stages where you can spoke through the stage!

Also only problem with that bomb dair, is that you gotta aim on which side of the body you hit. So you know which side he bounce to. If you miss you're in for some punishment xP

 

[LotadAlittle]

Yeah I wouldn't call these AT's perse, and they are also admittedly fairly common knowledge, but I'd say you're still in the right thread nonetheless if you're intention is to advance the metagame with an idea in mind that we should be using more spikes. And I mean, I'll admit that there's some untapped potential there. It's certainly a very strong spike. In case you were wondering, yes the whole ledge trump Dair thing works, just so long as they go back to the ledge. You'd have roughly 20 something frames to hit them.
Anyways, let me just have a think about it.

Well the custom bombs have much shorter fuses, and are also easier to BFO, meaning it's easier to use Dair while holding a Bomb. There is the possibility of drifting forward with a timed bomb throwing the bomb forwards then Dairing. The bomb only does 1% and the distance it sends you would allow you to do it pretty far out off-stage even on low percents e.g. out of a DJ. Drifting out backwards would make this much safer as the bomb is easier to catch though and you wouldn't be required to DJ.
Then there's the short fuse bomb. I did eventually find a way to get the Dair hitbox out while holding the bomb before the bomb explodes (jump out off-stage backwards while pulling a bomb, immediately throw bomb backwards immediately hit Dair to catch the bomb), but the explosion hits the opponent immediately after they get spiked as expected.

I'm thinking that another good way to get Dairs would be when you Jab people who are off stage at the ledge. They won't be able to grab the ledge, then you Dair their DJ; I can see this working. So e.g. Zair to Jab to Dair, or JC bomb throw forwards at low to medium percents to Jab to Dair, or just Jab them at the ledge.

A couple of interesting things you may want to keep in mind about all this:
-The spike hitbox is out for a pretty long time. E.g. if you do a Dair at the peak of a SH, Toon will bop up to a FH height, and then the Dair will have an active spike hitbox right up until you land (at which point you get the landing hitbox). In other words, you need to FH then Dair anywhere above a SH in order to get the non-spike hitbox out before you land.
-In smash 4, it seems to be the case that the more knockback a move inflicts, the more you can DI it. Essentially what this means is that at low to medium percents, people simply won't be able to DI the Dair back on stage if they are slightly off stage (while you were on stage). So you know, if you ever get a Dair like that and you're thinking 'I was lucky they didn't DI', well you'd be wrong.

Ok, I think I may not have been too clear on the third one though. In the future I may make a video showcasing all I was talking about and post it to youtube. If I ever do this I'll make sure to post a link to the video here.
Honestly I just think that TL's dair is a strongly underrated move and has some catastrophic potential in the right hands.
Also, one last thing I forgot to mention before: I'm pretty sure that this would be quite well known but one thing that I like to do is that if somebody is using an up smash/tilt from under me then I normally use dair to punish the end lag they get. I've also managed to escape being juggled/combo'd from this.