Meta Treasure Charts: Metagame Advancement, Research Lab, and AT List.

[Halfy]

While playing for glory today, I found something interesting with toon link's usmash. I could explain it, but I'm not completely sure what happened and I have a video, which is easier.

Sorry for the bad quality, that's what I get for using an old TV.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

While playing for glory today, I found something interesting with toon link's usmash. I could explain it, but I'm not completely sure what happened and I have a video, which is easier.

Sorry for the bad quality, that's what I get for using an old TV.

That is what happens when CF holds down to skip the edge grab intending to attack you with the Up-B, gets his hand hit by the U-smash, and then proceeds to DI into the stage to get himself stagespiked.

 

[ephOE]

You'd be interested to know that you actually have a slightly better frame advantage out of Jab 1 than you do out of Jab 2 until very high percents. For example, if you Jab a Fox then shield and have Fox immediately try to jab you, you will always powershield (because Jab 1 has set-knockback) but if you try the same with Jab 2, Fox will actually Jab you right up until he's at 105% in training mode, and it's only beyond this that the slight amount of growth knockback in Jab 2 starts to help. So if anything, your question should be, what are my thoughts on the different options out of Jab 1 (which incidentally also gives the opponent less time to react). [The same results can be seen if you look at when a Jiggs can DJ compared to when you can shield after a Jab 1 or 2. The results show that Jab 1 is superior.]
But we're not done analysing Jab 1 yet. It has set-knockback, but it will affect different characters in different ways due to their fall-speed, meaning that you'll actually have a different amount of frame (dis)advantage over different characters and also some options will be more risky on certain characters. Jab to Grab is a pretty bad option against someone like Jiggs for example. Some characters are forced to land, meaning they have to go through landing lag on top of the hitstun our Jab inflicts. (Hint: there aren't many.) But at the same time, those characters are better able to shield or roll/spotdodge. Nothing is guaranteed out of our Jab, all we have are different options with different risks. That means that the answer to your question will unfortunately depend almost entirely on the player you are versing and the options they tend to take in response to getting Jabbed. So pick a follow up, see what the opponent does and change your game-plan for next time if necessary, or else condition the opponent to think that they are making the right decision and then hard-counter that option they keep taking when it best benefits you.

Thanks, I'll start practicing options after Jab 1 as well. I've been playing Greninja so long that Jab 2 just became normal for me. It might be worth mentioning that Jab 2 has a little bit of flexibility in terms of the player being able to control the timing, which at the very least can be used to keep other players on their toes.

 

[Moffe]

Hey guys!

This is my first post ever!
Im a newbie here, been stalking these pages for a while.

Just wanted to share a small little discovery!

Dont know if this is common knowledge, but it could be useful for mixups maybe!

 

[ephOE]

Hey guys!

This is my first post ever!
Im a newbie here, been stalking these pages for a while.

Just wanted to share a small little discovery!

Dont know if this is common knowledge, but it could be useful for mixups maybe!

That's neat, could be useful for when you want to fall through with Nair without having to get rid of a bomb.

Also reminds me that you can fall through a platform and Dair immediately, and you'll almost end up doing a grounded Dair (you land and plant the sword on the platform). You can catch approaches from beneath you this way.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@ Moffe Wow, I did not know that. It would seem that we are able to z-drop bombs without Zairing if we do it immediately after falling through a platform, then it's just a matter of catching the bomb with an aerial if we want. I like this.
The timing is very strict just fyi. Anyway I'll update the z-drop section in the OP accordingly, and once we're pretty sure we've got it all figured out I'll probably even add this as a new AT.

 

[Yackabean]

this is legit as hell man thanks for this find! @ Moffe

I'm at hypespotting just now and instantly stole a set up to try it. This is a really good find, any suggestion for the name of this? Platorm instant z-drop? (PIZD)

 

[Scamper52596]

I guess it's safe to say that stages with platforms just got even better for Toon Link.

 

[Moffe]

Im glad I can contribute! would not have found this out if I didnt encounter yackabean on "for glory" and made me insta switch to tlink haha

PIZD sounds nice! But what about PIZAC?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

This is a really good find, any suggestion for the name of this? Platorm instant z-drop? (PIZD)

I'd imagine that something to that effect would be appropriate, yeah.

I wonder if there's a way to make this any easier... Atm it's pretty difficult and you get punished every time you screw it up.

Note that if you blow yourself up, it's because you hit grab too early and cancelled the drop-through; if you blow yourself up and you see a flash, that's because you held down for too long and threw the bomb down as you passed through the platform. If you find yourself doing a Zair then this either means that you were too late hitting grab or you were still holding grab when you went to use an aerial. Because of this, I recommend practising without the aerial for a while so that you can rule the former one out. If you just throw the bomb forwards this either means that you messed up hitting down entirely or somehow you were actually too quick letting go of down and also too quick hitting grab (highly unlikely but theoretically possible).

I recommend flicking down on the joystick only part of the way, just enough to register as a drop through, and then immediately let it return to neutral. If you can do the IZAC, you can do the rest.

 

[CURRY]

urg. I posted something about the platform drop some time ago in the Social Thread. I should probably post any new things I find in their respective threads, sigh.
This is very awkward for me. I just passed everything I discovered as relatively useless techs. Then Moffe gets smart and does an IZAC variant with it. Cool stuff.

I'll probably get to posting the things that Artemis said to post in the stage discussion thread.

Edit: I've posted 3.14 x100 number of posts now, cool beans.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

urg. I posted something about the platform drop some time ago in the Social Thread. I should probably post any new things I find in their respective threads, sigh.
This is very awkward for me. I just passed everything I discovered as relatively useless techs. Then Moffe gets smart and does an IZAC variant with it. Cool stuff.

I'll probably get to posting the things that Artemis said to post in the stage discussion thread.

Edit: I've posted 3.14 x100 number of posts now, cool beans.

Well I'll be, so you did:

EYYYYY MORE USELESS TOON THINGS
Toon Link can go under Battlefield without a bomb if he tarzan-swings on his tether under the stage, drops the tether, and proceeds to double jump + up-B to the other side.
So like

-------=====================---------

Where ==== is the main part of Battlefield, and ---- is an imaginary line. Toon has to be above that line so that he has enough momentum to swing forward enough to make up for going so low. Then you have to press down on the analog to cancel the tether WITHOUT FASTFALLING, which we should all be able to do, since we've suffered with down-B fastfalls offstage in previous games.
It's really time consuming to do on all stages, even with a star KO. So not even applicable as a star-KO taunt if you've mastered it. :|
Also,
-We can't recover to the other side without a bomb on Final Dest. We can recover to the other side with bomb WITHOUT tether-swinging, though.
-We can't recover under Big Battlefield even when using both, because our bomb explodes a lot faster in this game compared to others.

You can C-4 on platforms without the tether coming out if you're fast enough. The jump -> zdrop without zair coming out is a two-drame window, I've heard?
Whatever the frame window is, it's probably the same as the platform drop frame window.
use the C-4 anyway though, and having a protective zair when platform dropping is nice, so ;_______;

And this is why people should use this thread for all their tech related stuff. Because sometimes I see a long post in the social and I think to myself, 'Do I really want to read all of that?' with the typical answer being 'no not really XD'. But if you post here I'll read it.

Now as to that other thing you mentioned in that post, the whole swinging under the stage thing, I couldn't help but remember that this was posted soon after Izaw came out with this same information for Link XD. Anyway, other than being a neat trick, I can't see it being used competitively. @Anyone: Prove me wrong.

 

[CURRY]

Yeah, I'll probably post the tether exploits in the stage discussion then. They're really fun, but I VERY heavily doubt that anyone will be able to put it to good use in tournament. So probably not here.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah, I'll probably post the tether exploits in the stage discussion then. They're really fun, but I VERY heavily doubt that anyone will be able to put it to good use in tournament. So probably not here.

It doesn't hurt to bring up new information in here too, even if you don't think it could ever be used competitively. In order to find new things we need to know everything that Toon is capable of. You never know what people may be able to come up with, case in point, platform IZACs where you initially only saw platform z-drops.

Actually, speaking of which, we can edge cancel Zair and arrows and there are some interesting thigns you can do with it. That was recently brought up over at the Links, and I quickly checked to see if we can do it too. I'll quickly get the post.
Here it is http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-17#post-18910494
Instead of edge cancelled Zair to Dair, Toon can do edge cancelled Zair to Fair (and Nair obviously). This is pretty sweet near the edge.
We can of course cancel the end lag of arrows. Because Toon is so floaty, you may as well charge the arrows for a bit before releasing them near the edge of a platform or the edge of the stage. Lagless fire arrows are really nice when using platforms because of the way they drop down.


Edit: OMG I just realised, edge cancelled Zairs can be used to bypass the lag from an airdodge Zair, meaning we can airdodge Zair while holding Bombs without lag!
Anyway, it looks like I'll have to update 'ledge cancelling' in the second post at some point too. At the moment it mentions airdodges and arrows, but that's it.

 

[Ukkiez]

Hey there,

I don't know if this was known yet, but since I didn't see it in the c4 section I might as well mention it:
If you do a jc bomb throw, catch it with a short hop Nair, let yourself fall and buffer a zair, you'll get a guaranteed c4 bomb (I've tried it many times, always gave me c4).
I'm not sure it's very useful, although I suppose this may be used for fast double bomb edge setups or something like that.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hey there,

I don't know if this was known yet, but since I didn't see it in the c4 section I might as well mention it:
If you do a jc bomb throw, catch it with a short hop Nair, let yourself fall and buffer a zair, you'll get a guaranteed c4 bomb (I've tried it many times, always gave me c4).
I'm not sure it's very useful, although I suppose this may be used for fast double bomb edge setups or something like that.

This blows my mind. This right here. It's weird because we can't DJ out of SH Nair, yet we're able to z-drop bombs.
Anyway, this is awesome because we can travel around doing SH Nairs while holding a bomb so long as you return the joystick to neutral before you land and hit the grab button. Easy. In fact it's too easy. I can't not do it.

Is there anyone else lurking out there that would like to make their first post XD?

 

[Ukkiez]

I also found something perhaps even more useful (and interesting).
If you do the same thing as I described earlier, but catch the bomb OFFSTAGE with a SH nair, you can drop the bomb with a buffered zair without the zair actually coming out.
I have no idea why it works, but perhaps this can lead to some other techniques...?
Edit: it works if you buffer a zair out of any aerial attack after RAR. It seems like you can do RAR, catch the bomb with an aerial and buffer a zair (offstage). This is faster and easier for offstage setups than JC gliding it seems.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I also found something perhaps even more useful (and interesting).
If you do the same thing as I described earlier, but catch the bomb OFFSTAGE with a SH nair, you can drop the bomb with a buffered zair without the zair actually coming out.
I have no idea why it works, but perhaps this can lead to some other techniques...?
Edit: it works if you buffer a zair out of any aerial attack after RAR. It seems like you can do RAR, catch the bomb with an aerial and buffer a zair (offstage). This is faster and easier for offstage setups than JC gliding it seems.

Ok let's see, I knew about the z-drops after aerials (that information was in 'z-drop' in the second post of this thread), and RAR basically comes under Z-dropping immediately after a SH or FH, which was also in the 'z-drop' section. I mean a RAR just involves a pivot before the SH or FH, so there's no new mechanic going on here, but sure, I guess it doesn't hurt to note.

 

[Ukkiez]

Ok let's see, I knew about the z-drops after aerials (that information was in 'z-drop' in the second post of this thread), and RAR basically comes under Z-dropping immediately after a SH or FH, which was also in the 'z-drop' section. I mean a RAR just involves a pivot before the SH or FH, so there's no new mechanic going on here, but sure, I guess it doesn't hurt to note.

Oh you're completely right, didn't know it was already written in the thread. Apologies for the spam then :<

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Oh you're completely right, didn't know it was already written in the thread. Apologies for the spam then :<

It's ok, this is a dictatorship, so it's only spam if I say it's spam XD. You are most welcome to post in here more often.

 

[Moffe]

Hey!

Just played a bit and managed to get pheonix bomb from PIZAC (obvious that it works but had to confirm it) , and thanks to Ukkiez the buffered z drop makes it possible to do double izac in a full jump (+ fast fall) but its really difficult for me. (could not manage to get C4 after SH IZAC, might work if I am a bit faster on the nair)

So many cool techniques is possible when you have enough ATs to combine.

Also if you do full jump back air from ground to catch bomb its perfect timing for a C4 on lowest platform on battlefield. (could also work with IZAC)

I think its good to find out ways to put C4 on platforms on all the important stages (might work with IZAC. if so I think it would be a great AT!)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hey!

Just played a bit and managed to get pheonix bomb from PIZAC (obvious that it works but had to confirm it) , and thanks to Ukkiez the buffered z drop makes it possible to do double izac in a full jump (+ fast fall) but its really difficult for me. (could not manage to get C4 after SH IZAC, might work if I am a bit faster on the nair)

So many cool techniques is possible when you have enough ATs to combine.

Also if you do full jump back air from ground to catch bomb its perfect timing for a C4 on lowest platform on battlefield. (could also work with IZAC)

I think its good to find out ways to put C4 on platforms on all the important stages (might work with IZAC. if so I think it would be a great AT!)

Haha, yeah I also checked to see if the phoenix bomb worked with the PIZAC when I first tested this. I understand XD.
[Note to self: PIZAC is fun to say. I must make a really bad pie pun at some point. Bringin that hot and fresh PIZAC straight out'a the oven.]

Getting a C4 after a SH Nair is only really going to be a thing if you don't have to bother with the IZAC. That's why (presumably) it was suggested to do it out of a JC throw forwards to dash to SH instant Nair. And obviously it can also be done if you just SH Bomb pull C4 first and then SH instant Nair. The timing is so strict that I'm actually not confident that it could be done out of an IZAC. It may even be theoretically impossible.

That's strange, I can't get the Bair one to work. I can get it to work by going from the side-platforms onto the top platform, but not from the ground onto the side-platforms. Come to think of it, this may be what you were saying.


Edit: [Just a note to my future self: I need to remember to add something like the 'ledgehop z-drop'. I saw Zan(?) making great use of it either to hit people off-stage as he was getting off the ledge or to hit people who were standing too close to the edge. It looked quite useful.]

Edit 2: A FH Bair C4 works on Halberd from the sides onto the platform while flying around and it works from anywhere onto the platform when you're on the ship.
A FH Nair C4 works on Duck Hunt if you land on the bush.
A FH Nair C4 works on the side platforms of pokemon stadium 2.
A FH Nair C4 works on the side platforms of the first castle siege transformation as well as the middle platforms in the second transformation.

 

[ephOE]

Something that isn't specific to Toon Link but I don't think has been mentioned yet:

Do a backwards SH and continue to hold opposite to the direction you are facing. If you keep holding that direction and let go just as you land and begin to turn around, you can perform any action you would normally be able to do out of a walk, but with a little slide to it. This works for almost every ground option - tilts, jab, grab, Up and Down Smash, Arrows and Boomerang (their reversals as well), Up B, bomb pull. It only works with F smash if you smash in the direction you were originally facing when you SH'd (so a turnaround F smash), and AFAIK doesn't work with a bomb throw but you'd probably be JCing that anyways.

It's pretty easy to do, personally I feel it's most effective with tilts (especially Utilt) and grab, since you get the benefits of an empty hop + tether grab with a little extra range. Toon Link is pretty good for this since his momentum when turning around is very good.

Also something kind of silly - Toon Link won't be forced to into the boomerang regrab if it returns to him while he's teetering on a ledge, despite him not actually doing anything.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Something that isn't specific to Toon Link but I don't think has been mentioned yet:

Do a backwards SH and continue to hold opposite to the direction you are facing. If you keep holding that direction and let go just as you land and begin to turn around, you can perform any action you would normally be able to do out of a walk, but with a little slide to it. This works for almost every ground option - tilts, jab, grab, Up and Down Smash, Arrows and Boomerang (their reversals as well), Up B, bomb pull. It only works with F smash if you smash in the direction you were originally facing when you SH'd (so a turnaround F smash), and AFAIK doesn't work with a bomb throw but you'd probably be JCing that anyways.

It's pretty easy to do, personally I feel it's most effective with tilts (especially Utilt) and grab, since you get the benefits of an empty hop + tether grab with a little extra range. Toon Link is pretty good for this since his momentum when turning around is very good.

Also something kind of silly - Toon Link won't be forced to into the boomerang regrab if it returns to him while he's teetering on a ledge, despite him not actually doing anything.

The first one you're talking about is called pivot landing. When transferring things over from this old brawl AT thread I made a few, let's say, executive decisions. One of these decisions was not to include as many things that I felt either didn't help much or didn't need to be given their own AT. So yeah, it's not that I wasn't aware of the pivot land, it's more that I chose not to include it. It's the same as the pivot walk really. I didn't see the point. My older and more mature self saw the benefit of having some kind of low level filter for what I add instead of simply adding everything.

Oh and the thing about teetering - that would fall under the definition in the 'zero lag catch' as teetering is not standing there, jumping and doing nothing, or running/walking/pivoting.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I have removed the following AT's from the OP as they have been patched out.

F-tilt while holding a Bomb
F-smash while holding a Bomb
D-smash Gimp

(Everything else still works.)

 

[CURRY]

If we time a zair with bomb right, we can pick it up on the ground.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrazyHand/comments/31k2ir/toon_link_can_catch_his_bombs_right_after_a/

Not too sure if the animation for picking up the bomb is the less/more or the same as airdodge -> zair lag, though.

 

[Moffe]

Isnt that common knowledge? You also have time to jump + insta throw with canceling airdodge with A (throw).

Ive been doing this for a long while, and I think I picked it up from someone else. >,< sorry!

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

If we time a zair with bomb right, we can pick it up on the ground.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrazyHand/comments/31k2ir/toon_link_can_catch_his_bombs_right_after_a/

Not too sure if the animation for picking up the bomb is the less/more or the same as airdodge -> zair lag, though.

The lag from simply catching the bomb on the ground is significantly less than the lag from an airdodge Zair. Maybe slightly less than half. It does mean however that you are restricted of course, as you can't drift forward or backwards much.

There's another big issue with this whole thing though. It doesn't factor in hitlag. If you plan on hitting the opponent with Zair then returning to the ground to catch the bomb and follow up, then your options for using this are restricted further. When Zair connects, you are stuck in place for a short moment while the bomb continues to drop. The means that you have to time the Zair/Z-drop at a very specific time on the way down out of a SH otherwise it becomes impossible to catch the bomb in time. Alternatively you can do it coming down from a FH height and this will just give you enough time to catch the bomb.

And even then, the lag is too much when you combine the landing lag from the Zair and the lag from the bomb catch to combo into a bomb throw before the opponent can shield. It doesn't help that you can't drift forwards much with the Zair otherwise the bomb will drop behind you leaving you unable to catch it, and you can't be too close to the opponent when you drop it either otherwise the bomb will hit them; and these two things are more or less essential for combos out of Zair.

But hey, it's reddit. What did you expect?

 

[RancidLeaf]

This isn't much of a technique, and it's probably known by many. But after ledge drop you can double jump into the stage with a fair and put out a nair before touching the ground.

It's good for catching people who want to shield grab/dash grab your fair. Also note that both hits of the nair are able to come out, so you might want to fast fall after throwing out the nair so that only the first hit comes out and you don't have to deal with the time it takes for the second hit to happen + landing lag.

 

[Moffe]

I find perfect pivot->uptilt to be very useful, dont see many people use it though.

f.ex zair (has to be within close/semi-close range) -> perfect pivot utilt (how many utilts depends enemys percent) -> uair = true combo

Or if you shield a smash attack that push you away, counter and close the gap with a perfect pivot uptilt and you got yourself a free follow up/combo.

Anyone got any other uses for perfect pivot? I know jab and maybe arrow can be useful, but I dont really know when to use it

 

[Theis]

Less laggy SH F-airs:

if you instantly f-air out of a short hop you should have enough time to jump a second option before you land, but if you do land you still get the 18 frames of end lag IF you dont do anything. aside from the obvious option to just jump a second time, you could n-air after the f-air to instead get the 12 frames of lag instead of 18 or use a Bmove to cover your landing as well.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Less laggy SH F-airs:

if you instantly f-air out of a short hop you should have enough time to jump a second option before you land, but if you do land you still get the 18 frames of end lag IF you dont do anything. aside from the obvious option to just jump a second time, you could n-air after the f-air to instead get the 12 frames of lag instead of 18 or use a Bmove to cover your landing as well.

The fact that you can DJ out of a SH Fair is mentioned in the guide. It's worth noting however, as you did, that if you do choose to land, you may as well get the Nair landing lag or use a special instead of going through the Fair landing lag. @Artemis: I've edited in this information to the guide.

 

[Theis]

I've also been experementing with SH arrow into up-smash to catch landings and dash b-reverse arrows for improved zoning tech. it might be worth a try for a little more technical savy toonlinks

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Apparently Toon is equal with the best dodges in the game. http://smashboards.com/threads/roll-air-dodge-frame-data.401323/
I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe we should consider doing more rolls/spotdodges/airdodges. [That really does sound stupid...]

 

[Scamper52596]

Apparently Toon is equal with the best dodges in the game. http://smashboards.com/threads/roll-air-dodge-frame-data.401323/
I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe we should consider doing more rolls/spotdodges/airdodges. [That really does sound stupid...]

Well, Toon Link is a character you play to not get hit...

 

[CURRY]

Wow. Toon with the BEST roll in the game?? That'll take a while for me to fully internalize.

Looking at the Brawl frame data... lol, we had by far the largest jump in roll ranking. Our roll was on par with Yoshi's and Link's, and the only two who had worse rolls were Bowser and Samus.
Smash 4, Samus and Yoshi have the first and second worst rolls respectively, Bowser is tied with the other two king heavyweights, and we're at the TOP. Link's roll is ehh, but not the worst. Ya gotta give him a break after Brawl and Melee.

 

[Deleted member]

Well his air dodge is amazing, but even if his roll is otherwise good it just doesn't go far enough to be very useful. The lack of distance really kills the point of moving while dodging.

 

[CURRY]

Well his air dodge is amazing, but even if his roll is otherwise good it just doesn't go far enough to be very useful. The lack of distance really kills the point of moving while dodging.

Ahh... so that's why I don't use it very much, lol. Or maybe it was because I still thought that Toon had the worst roll in the game.
Yeah, the distance that Marth covers with his roll is pretty nice, and I find myself using his roll a lot more than I do with Toon's. I couldn't think of why, so thanks Artemis!

****I'VE GOT SOMETHING TO ADD, and double posting is bad, so here:
So you know how it's really hard to gimp someone with Toon because nair is tiny, zair doesn't have as much of an effect as it did in Brawl (not to mention, our recovery is worse and we fall faster, so it's not like we can run off -> zair anymore), and fair just takes so long to start up?
Well, our bomb fuse is REALLY short in this game. We just need to stall for a tiny amount of time before it'll explode on us. So, we can pull out a bomb, fullhop offstage, double jump, Spin Attack them (wow, a long duration hitbox that makes us rise!), let our bomb explode, and come back to the stage.
We can go really far offstage HORIZONTALLY above the level of the stage. Again with a crappy ascii picture:

----------------------============================-----------------

if === is the surface of the stage and --- is an imaginary line extending from that surface (so from the ledge, really), we can go pretty far horizontally.

It's going to be a super situational thing to do. pulling out a bomb, fullhopping, DJing, and THEN Spin Attack takes a long time to do. The only situation this could be useful in is when the opponent is sent offstage and *almost* dies.

No, Fullhop bomb pull -> dj -> spin attack will not work. The bomb doesn't explode early enough, especially because fullhop bomb pull means that the bomb will start its fuse at the peak of your jump as opposed to the whole duration.

Also, you may sometimes need to drift in freefall for a bit before the bomb explodes. So if the opponent airdodges through and the bomb doesn't explode early enough, it'll be pretty bad. Also, we're left without our double jump, which is REALLY bad if the opponent actually survives.

 

[RancidLeaf]

Well his air dodge is amazing, but even if his roll is otherwise good it just doesn't go far enough to be very useful. The lack of distance really kills the point of moving while dodging.

Well, in addition to this, there's also the fact that most of our options out of a roll are relatively slow.

EDIT: and by options outside of roll (which is essentially his whole moveset) I meant to say that after rolling your fastest move would be a jab that only covers one side of you, and our utilt, which is fast, but we'd have to take into account the time spent rolling + the 9 frames before we have a hitbox out from our utilt.

 

[Theis]

Apparently Toon is equal with the best dodges in the game. http://smashboards.com/threads/roll-air-dodge-frame-data.401323/
I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe we should consider doing more rolls/spotdodges/airdodges. [That really does sound stupid...]

I think its powerful to utilize the fact that we essentially have a 2 frame spot dodge /airdodge and a 4 frame roll. in-fact i wonder if its possible to avoid boxing situations by instant airdodge out of sheild to get away