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Meta Treasure Charts: Metagame Advancement, Research Lab, and AT List.

LotadAlittle

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Toon link can short or full hop zair with bomb in hand and catch it while he's on the ground.
Check the AT list, this is common knowledge. It's much more useful when you jump again and catch it with an aerial, that's called zac (Z-drop aerial catch). You can actually do this while rising, too. It's really precise and arguably tink's most difficult tech to learn, just jump (short or full, it doesn't matter) and z-drop on one of the first airborn frames (I'm not sure on the exact window, but it starts on frame 6), if done correctly, zair won't come out and you'll be free to catch the bomb while still rising with an aerial, basically, sh aerials while keeping a bomb in-hand. This is call an izac, for instant z-drop aerial catch.
 

ILJ

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Im familiar with those. Ive been missing for a while so I am not sure which At's are listed and not and I am too lazy to read through them lol.
 

LotadAlittle

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Im familiar with those. Ive been missing for a while so I am not sure which At's are listed and not and I am too lazy to read through them lol.
I personally think it's worth a skim through every once in a while again, just to see if there's anything else you could implement into your gameplay or improve upon.
It's a 1 frame window, i.e. only frame 6, or in other words the first airborne frame. If you input grab on frame 5 you get a JC bomb throw, and if you do it on frame 7 you get a normal Zair + Z-drop.
Oh wow, really? I thought it was a 1 frame window, but I can pull it off around 50+% of the time, so I just assumed it was easier. I'm surprised I can actually do it that well, I've been practising it quite a lot recently, but even then, this is pretty surprising to me.
 

ILJ

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I personally think it's worth a skim through every once in a while again, just to see if there's anything else you could implement into your gameplay or improve upon.

Oh wow, really? I thought it was a 1 frame window, but I can pull it off around 50+% of the time, so I just assumed it was easier. I'm surprised I can actually do it that well, I've been practising it quite a lot recently, but even then, this is pretty surprising to me.
True. I really like the z-drop after catching bomb with aerial. Used it on the best Sheik in fl, master raven, and won :).
 

JesterJaded

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As a Tink main, I tend to use the returning boomerang a lot when playing keep-away as a means to win Neutral, start combos, and escape combo strings if my opponent manages to break through my zoning, and it's certainly helped me a lot in the past. I do however feel as if I'm not optimising this tool very well. Usually I'll attempt to Nair my opponent just before the Rang hits, and it tends to start combos or doesn't get punished very often on-shield, or go for a grab. At later percents though, the knockback causes the grab to whiff and I get punished, so I'll just Nair.

Are there better options though? I haven't been able to practice what I should use with this tool as much as I would like, since I only get to play on my friend's Wii U. Most of it's just improvised when I attend my local monthly. If anyone more experienced than I could give some insight on this, it'd be much appreciated.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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As a Tink main, I tend to use the returning boomerang a lot when playing keep-away as a means to win Neutral, start combos, and escape combo strings if my opponent manages to break through my zoning, and it's certainly helped me a lot in the past. I do however feel as if I'm not optimising this tool very well. Usually I'll attempt to Nair my opponent just before the Rang hits, and it tends to start combos or doesn't get punished very often on-shield, or go for a grab. At later percents though, the knockback causes the grab to whiff and I get punished, so I'll just Nair.

Are there better options though? I haven't been able to practice what I should use with this tool as much as I would like, since I only get to play on my friend's Wii U. Most of it's just improvised when I attend my local monthly. If anyone more experienced than I could give some insight on this, it'd be much appreciated.
Something to keep in mind for setting up combos with the returning boomerang is that you can combo into it out of a Jab 1 or Jab 2; so if you know it's returning, you throw out a Jab, then if you need to keep them in hitstun for longer you throw out Jab 2; from there you can combo the returning boomerang into e.g. an U-tilt (into U-tilt/U-smash/U-air) or into a semi-charged U-smash for the kill.
 

Halfy

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What do you guys think of using down air after a fair on shield baits the shield grab? The dair might even set up for something else, but it builds good damage by itself. I could see this being a good mixup if your opponent likes to shield grab your landing aerials.
 

Grandma Wilkins

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That definitely is a good idea against characters with slow grabs, but I think you'll only be able to set up after dair if you catch a boomerang after landing lag.
 

Snasen

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That definitely is a good idea against characters with slow grabs, but I think you'll only be able to set up after dair if you catch a boomerang after landing lag.
Nah, some characters gets forced tech which you can potentially follow up on. No need for a boomerang canceled dair. Anyway good luck timing that on flat ground lol. Its really difficult

Its a viable strat depending on the opponents nair (or aerials in general) and grab imo. And how well your opponent know tink MU. I would never try to grab a sh fair to my shield as any character.
 
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Halfy

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Nah, some characters gets forced tech which you can potentially follow up on. No need for a boomerang canceled dair. Anyway good luck timing that on flat ground lol. Its really difficult

Its a viable strat depending on the opponents nair (or aerials in general) and grab imo. And how well your opponent know tink MU. I would never try to grab a sh fair to my shield as any character.
That is why I specifically said that it may work on people who like to shield grab landing aerials
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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What do you guys think of using down air after a fair on shield baits the shield grab? The dair might even set up for something else, but it builds good damage by itself. I could see this being a good mixup if your opponent likes to shield grab your landing aerials.
Using Dair just before you land can be a legit mixup because it messes with the opponent's timing and dodges most grabs by popping up first (in the same way that a DJ just before landing does). It goes without saying that it's risky and should be used sparingly but I believe you've already made a note of that. As a mixup to e.g. doing Nair out of a SH Fair, such that they are already conditioned to be wary that Nair is possible so that they try to time their grab to get you when you would have otherwise landed, it should in turn make your DJ away option that much safer if they stay in shield for longer still just in case.

If people are having difficulty with it for some reason, it might be because you're using the c-stick (set to smash) instead of the A-stick (set to tilt). If you have it set to smash, trying to buffer the Dair out of the last ten frames of the Fair will just make you Fast Fall.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I posted this to the Picto Box video critique thread, but it's also an AT so I'd like to have my new z-drop walljump re-grab tech added to the AT list or something. Here's my video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqD0Y0dWZWE
I'm having trouble deciding what exactly I should do with this. The AT list generally consist of things that are either mechanically unique, optimised in some way, or novel in some way. If something is merely a specific use of an already listed AT, then I'll generally try to keep such things in the Note of the relevant AT if it's worth noting. There's nothing mechanically unique about it, and it's not exactly optimised, though it may be novel. It also doesn't quite fit in the Note of e.g. the z-drop as it doesn't quite seem worth noting. It sort of sits somewhere outside or in-between. I could easily add it as a quote in the top post of course; in fact it would fit there just fine. Either way, I think I'll decide what to do with it later when I get around to updating. I can promise you that something will be done with it though, eventually, so thanks for posting it here.
 

randomguy2730

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I'm having trouble deciding what exactly I should do with this. The AT list generally consist of things that are either mechanically unique, optimised in some way, or novel in some way. If something is merely a specific use of an already listed AT, then I'll generally try to keep such things in the Note of the relevant AT if it's worth noting. There's nothing mechanically unique about it, and it's not exactly optimised, though it may be novel. It also doesn't quite fit in the Note of e.g. the z-drop as it doesn't quite seem worth noting. It sort of sits somewhere outside or in-between. I could easily add it as a quote in the top post of course; in fact it would fit there just fine. Either way, I think I'll decide what to do with it later when I get around to updating. I can promise you that something will be done with it though, eventually, so thanks for posting it here.
Alright, sounds good. I see your reasoning in that it wouldn't quite fit in the AT list for not being distinctly different from the rest of the AT's, and I definitely agree with that.
 

Moobussir

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As a Tink main, I tend to use the returning boomerang a lot when playing keep-away as a means to win Neutral, start combos, and escape combo strings if my opponent manages to break through my zoning, and it's certainly helped me a lot in the past. I do however feel as if I'm not optimising this tool very well. Usually I'll attempt to Nair my opponent just before the Rang hits, and it tends to start combos or doesn't get punished very often on-shield, or go for a grab. At later percents though, the knockback causes the grab to whiff and I get punished, so I'll just Nair.

Are there better options though? I haven't been able to practice what I should use with this tool as much as I would like, since I only get to play on my friend's Wii U. Most of it's just improvised when I attend my local monthly. If anyone more experienced than I could give some insight on this, it'd be much appreciated.
(Yes I know I'm late in responding, but I've been off Smashboards for a while so I'm just seeing this)

Boomerang is my favourite projectile and I've been improving the technology on it for a long time. Here's some of the basic and advanced things I do with it.

Early on in a set, using it to help land attacks or grabs is the best use obviously. As your opponent adapts and recognizes the returning boomerang, they shield more often, and mixing up your timing of the grab (Way before it returns to cover a whiff, and while it collides with your opponent to lead in).

As the boomerang returns, it's not a bad choice to force your opponent into it either. Some common choices I like include bomb -> Returning Rang -> Up-Smash, or as you mentioned, Nair -> Returning Rang -> Up-Tilt or something else. Something I'm working on is Zair -> RR, since the long range catches people off guard as they get pushed into RR (Yes I just made RR a term XD).

One of my favourite things to do is, as the boomerang returns, I run to my opponent, and as the boomerang collides with my opponent, the boomerang comes back to me and cancels my dash, which makes Toon Link walk. I then use F-tilt, and if spaced right, it's easy to get the sweetspot, an excellent attack. If your opponents shields though, although F-tilt on shield is usually not punished, it's still kinda unsafe, so be aware. I suppose other options include Smash's and Jab, so experiment

Of course, one of the hardest things I find is reliably setting up into these things. Just like you, I kinda improv what I do with it, though I find that I usually throw boomerang up down at a slight angle while grounded, since it covers more surface area in front of your opponent, and returns at a nice low angle too. I also like SH -> Straight Boomerang Throw to stay low enough to the ground to make grounded setups while still having it aerial in a position to return.

With both of these setups, if people end up behind me, something that I've been working on is grabbing opponents and D-throwing as the projectile returns, which locks them as the projectile returns, dealing more total damage (Usually 9% from RR). On that note, at low %'s, it's sometimes possible to D-throw and knock them into the RR, changing the KB to lead into another attack like Up-Tilt. Me and some friends will be writing a guide on it at some point in the future so keep an eye out.

Anyway, hope that helps. I tend to write a lot but I hope you found this essay helpful XD
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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If you must use Dair off-stage in such a way that the bomb stops you from losing your stock, you'd be better off either:
Tethering the edge while holding a bomb such that it z-drops then canceling the tether by hitting down and then actually catching the bomb with Dair, or
C4ing the bomb right next to the ledge such that when you let go of the ledge you can pick it up immediately with Dair.

The first method you showed was a little too restricted, and the second method you showed simply wouldn't work, because even if the bomb didn't hit the opponent, by hitting the opponent with Dair you'd enter hitlag long enough for the bomb to no longer be there to save you (unless of course you deliberately accounted for the hitlag, in which case it wouldn't save you if you missed the opponent).
 

Green Zelda

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So, I decided to lab out the %'s of which tink's zair knocks every character into the tumble animation.
IMPORTANT NOTES:
Everything was tested on Smash 3DS.
Everything was tested in training mode, so rage does NOT have an effect on the outcome!
Jigglypuff, Bowser, and Mario are highlighted in blue (for obvious weight-related reasons)

Characters | Percentages
:4bayonetta: | 103%
:4bowser: | 130%
:4bowserjr: | 116% (if hit on his top hurtbox only), 117%
:4falcon: | 115%
:4charizard: | 122%
:4cloud: | 112%
:4corrinf: | 111%
:4darkpit: | 110% (same as:4pit:)
:4diddy: | 108%
:4dk: | 125%
:4drmario: | 111% (same as :4mario:)
:4duckhunt: | 107%
:4falco: | 102%
:4fox: | 100%
:4ganondorf: | 120%
:4greninja: | 109%
:4myfriends: | 116%
:4jigglypuff: | 94%
:4kirby: | 100%
:4littlemac: | 102%
:4link: | 115%
:4lucario: | 112%
:4lucas: | 109% (same as :4ness:)
:4lucina: | 107% (same as :4marth:)
:4luigi: | 111% (same as :4mario:)
:4mario: | 111%
:4marth: | 107%
:4megaman: | 114%
:4metaknight: | 101%
:4mewtwo: | 97%
:4gaw: | 98%
:4ness: | 109%
:4olimar: | 100%
:4pacman: | 109%
:4palutena: | 107%
:4peach: | 106%
:4pikachu: | 100%
:4pit: | 110%
:4rob: | 116%
:4robinm: | 109%
:rosalina: | 99%
:4feroy: | 109%
:4ryu: | 114%
:4samus: | 117%
:4sheik: | 101%
:4shulk: | 114%
:4sonic: | 109%
:4tlink: | 108%
:4villager: | 111%
:4wario: | 116%
:4wiifit: | 110%
:4yoshi: | 115%
:4zelda: | 104%
:4zss: | 101%

Please, please let me know if I got anything wrong (especially with :4bowserjr: and his jank hurtboxes)

EDIT 5/5/16: I went back and found the kill %'s of :4tlink:'s aerials on :4mario:, :4bowser:, and :4jigglypuff:.
IMPORTANT NOTES:
All of the data below was tested in Final Destination, on Smash Wii U.
Once again, everything was tested in training mode, so rage has NO effect on the outcome.
The CPUs were placed in the center of FD (i killed them so they respawned right in the center) and were set to CONTROL, so there was no DI.

Characters | Fair % | (Sweet) Uair % | (Sour) Uair | Dair % | Bair %
:4bowser: | 137% | 140% | 179% | 183% | 164%
:4mario: | 118% | 123% | 158% | 163% | 146%
:4jigglypuff: | 99% | 98% | 127% |130% | 116%

Again, please let me know if any of this information is incorrect.
 
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randomguy2730

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So I think I'll post this here as well as food for thought. Tink's grapple is actually incredibly useful for edgeguarding, namely ledge trumping into kill setups.

I may do some more research on possible setups for each character since not all characters jump the same height when trumped, as done by Smash Science.
\

Let me know what you guys think from a metagame standpoint. I'll leave the editing comments for the Picto Box video critique thread.
 
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Lomogoto

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At about 110% when zair finally puts people into tumble, does anyone know if you can jump before having to tech? Becauee this is kind of a perfect setup for the critical reeling animation exploit thats recently been discovered.
 
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randomguy2730

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At about 110% when zair finally puts people into tumble, does anyone know if you can jump before having to tech? Becauee this is kind of a perfect setup for the critical reeling animation exploit thats recently been discovered.
It depends on the character and their weight fall speed. Some characters can and some can't. At least this is what I think. Probably going to need to do some labbing for this.
 

Lomogoto

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Ok looks like (unsurprisingly) fox cannot jump out, while jiggs definitely can. Im sure no one would have guessed that.
Tether to arrow lock to forward smash is a mighty nice kill setup with this new information.
 
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randomguy2730

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Ok looks like (unsurprisingly) fox cannot jump out, while jiggs definitely can. Im sure no one would have guessed that.
Tether to arrow lock to forward smash is a mighty nice kill setup with this new information.
Well, Tink doesn't really have 50/50s but now we know he has a 25/75 against characters like fox xD
 

Lomogoto

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Well i hate fighting fox and when percents get high i like to fall back on safe poking with zair. I like this, especially since tink is floaty so hopefully doesnt get hurt by similar setups much.
 

randomguy2730

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And we can't forget this tech. I actually use this quite a lot. I was even using it before they made a video on it.

Using a quick nair or bair to land when about to be in one of these situations can be a good escape/mixup option for tink and other characters like fox. Just keep this in mind.

 

Lomogoto

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I just realized how similar toon links and marios up smashs are . . . am i supposed to be throughing it out randomly at kill percent too?
 

randomguy2730

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I just realized how similar toon links and marios up smashs are . . . am i supposed to be throughing it out randomly at kill percent too?
It may be fast, but it doesnt have invulnerability, I don't think. Catch opponents' landing and their rolling/spotdodging habits with up smash. You can also confirm into an up smash off of a bomb for some good damage or even a kill on certain characters. Just don't stale it if you want to kill at a reasonable percent with it.
 

LotadAlittle

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I just realized how similar toon links and marios up smashs are . . . am i supposed to be throughing it out randomly at kill percent too?
for killing with up smash, I think it's best used for reads/mix ups. It can be good for a quick, strong punish from a short distance if you them in a bad situation, especially if they're trying to land.
 

Lord Zeppelin

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So after watching Beefy Smash Doods video on footstool out of shield, I've been wondering if TL has any follow ups off of that. After labbing out in training mode, I found 2 follow ups. Footstool -> bomb -> footstool -> Dair (which was in the video) and footstool -> bomb -> falling up air. Both only really work at high %. The 2nd combo is a really good note worthy kill option out of shield.
 
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Halfy

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Man, I really have been slacking when it comes to posting important conversations that happened in discord in here. Well anyway, you didn't really miss much. However, a friend of mine made an in-depth video on grabs and how they work and I think its worth a watch, even if it doesn't help us learn how to do the bomb grab.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cf7LrSygLQ&feature=youtu.be
 

Lomogoto

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what sort of footstool shenanigans are possible with toon link that weve found?
ive seen things like close boomerang with bomb, footstool, z drop bomb, pull bomb, footstool repeat to arrow lock but was wondering if that is ever true?
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Toon can do the Triple Jump https://smashboards.com/threads/lin...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-50#post-21603989
only unlike Link he can do it potentially indefinitely because he is floaty enough to be able to TJ then throw the bomb and still have time to pull another bomb so that the FAF of the bomb pull animation is his last airborne frame. To do this, you'll want to throw the bomb down on frame 8 of the TJ, or throw the bomb in any other direction on frame 6, then buffer the bomb pull towards the end of the throw, and then buffer the jump input toward the end of the bomb pull just before you land, and then feel free to repeat.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Toon's Jab 1 frame advantage with Rage accounted for:

Unfortunately I only have it worked out against Mario because I had planned to do every character but labbing this stuff properly takes forever. Maybe I'll do other characters later, e.g. other characters that this works way better on, but for now it is enough for me to simply post what I have so you can see the clear benefits gained from rage and the hit-confirm kill potential of Jab 1 that I've been going on about for ages.

Some things to note:
I have all three hitboxes of Toon's Jab accounted for. Hitbox 1 ('HB1') is the the one closest to Toon, HB2 is in the middle of Jab 1 and HB3 is the one at the very tip. The hitboxes take priority starting from HB1, meaning you have to miss HB1 to hit HB2, and you have to miss HB1 and HB2 to hit HB3.
HB3 has set knockback so only rage will affect it, which is why I don't change Mario's percent with that one.
All options are assumed to be inputted with frame perfection, including the DJ airdodge escape option for instance. Just because you have e.g. 9 frames to work with against shield, this means that technically, yes, you could do a frame perfect D-smash after the Jab 1 and hit them before they can shield. However, and I would stress this, please use your own head to figure out what you think would work in reality.


Against Mario:

Toon at 0%
HB1
Mario at 0%
Hitstun Frames: 16
Airborne Frames: 14
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 5 against shield.

Mario at 50%
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 16
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 7 against shield.

Mario at 100%
Hitstun Frames: 20
Airborne Frames: 18
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 9 against shield.

Mario at 150%
Hitstun Frames: 22
Airborne Frames: 21
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 12 against shield.


HB2
Mario at 0%
Hitstun Frames: 11
Airborne Frames: 12
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 0 against Up-B, 1 against DJ airdodge, 3 against shield.

Mario at 50%
Hitstun Frames: 13
Airborne Frames: 15
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 2 against Up-B, 3 against DJ airdodge, 6 against shield.

Mario at 100%
Hitstun Frames: 16
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 5 against Up-B, 6 against DJ airdodge, 8 against shield.

Mario at 150%
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 20
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 7 against Up-B, 8 against DJ airdodge, 11 against shield.


HB3
Hitstun Frames: 14
Airborne Frames: 15
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 3 against Up-B, 4 against DJ airdodge, 6 against shield.

Toon at 100%
HB1
Mario at 0%
Hitstun Frames: 16
Airborne Frames: 15
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 6 against shield.

Mario at 50%
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 8 against shield.

Mario at 100%
Hitstun Frames: 22
Airborne Frames: 20
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against shield.

Mario at 150%
Hitstun Frames: 24
Airborne Frames: 23
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 14 against shield.


HB2
Mario at 0%
Hitstun Frames: 12
Airborne Frames: 13
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 1 against Up-B, 2 against DJ airdodge, 4 against shield.

Mario at 50%
Hitstun Frames: 15
Airborne Frames: 16
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 4 against Up-B, 5 against DJ airdodge, 7 against shield.

Mario at 100%
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 6 against Up-B, 7 against DJ airdodge, 10 against shield.

Mario at 150%
Hitstun Frames: 20
Airborne Frames: 23
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 9 against Up-B, 10 against DJ airdodge, 14 against shield.


HB3
Hitstun Frames: 15
Airborne Frames: 16
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 4 against Up-B, 5 against DJ airdodge, 7 against shield.

Toon at 150%
HB1
Mario at 0%
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 16
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 7 against shield.

Mario at 50%
Hitstun Frames: 20
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield.

Mario at 100%
Hitstun Frames: 23
Airborne Frames: 22
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 13 against shield.

Mario at 150%
Hitstun Frames: 26
Airborne Frames: 26
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 17 against shield.


HB2
Mario at 0%
Hitstun Frames: 13
Airborne Frames: 14
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 2 against Up-B, 3 against DJ airdodge, 5 against shield.

Mario at 50%
Hitstun Frames: 16
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 5 against Up-B, 6 against DJ airdodge, 8 against shield.

Mario at 100%
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 21
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 7 against Up-B, 8 against DJ airdodge, 12 against shield.

Mario at 150%
Hitstun Frames: 21
Airborne Frames: 25
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against Up-B, 11 against DJ airdodge, 16 against shield.


HB3
Hitstun Frames: 16
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 5 against Up-B, 6 against DJ airdodge, 8 against shield.
 

theyellowgreninja

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
8
Am I the only one who thinks Dair could almost be a good killmove (not the spike, the hitbox after the spike)?
Like, if you get a read (like you would need for F-Smash, another almost good killmove), and you're above them, you can kill them at early as 70% or 80%! I'm gonna go do some labbing for specifics, but I want to post this now so we can discuss potential combos (bomb throw down -> dair? Pratfall -> dair? Footstool -> dair? Jab-lock -> dair?).
Also the dair windbox is super funny and janky and can stop people like bowser or ganon from actually punishing you almost, and can surprise people at the ledge if they aren't prepared.

*Edit I was wrong. dair is a pretty bad kill move and can't really combo from or into stuff. I killed Mario at the ledge of battlefield at 127%
 
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