Meta Treasure Charts: Metagame Advancement, Research Lab, and AT List.

[LotadAlittle]

...
'Lock' is the general term, not 'jab lock'. It's a 'jab lock' only when 'jab' is involved. What you are referring to is an 'arrow lock' specifically, i.e. 'arrows can lock the opponent', not 'arrows can jab lock the opponent'.
Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine.

oh yeah... that makes more sense, jab locking with an arrow is stupid.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Has someone documented percentages for true follow-ups after Jab1? There are three hitboxes on it, only one has fixed knockback, and that hitbox has the lowest priority, meaning you'd have to hit with it at the absolute max range to prevent the others from outprioritizing it. That's great, because you want the hitboxes with knockback growth to register.

Its frame advantage increases as the opponent's damage goes up. It is heavily affected by fall speed, gravity, weight, and your own Rage, to the point where it will never work on certain characters (generally speaking, the fastfallers and the extremely floaty). Much like with Jab follow-ups with Fox, you want the Jab1 to stun them for a while and then to gain extra frame advantage on their forced landing lag post-hitstun. Fastfallers land on the ground too quickly, so the frame advantage isn't great enough to follow it up against them.

I've tested it with zero Rage and have confirmed that Jab1 -> D-Smash works on Ness, who is below-average in fall speed and gravity, after 70%. The timing is strict, but you have better frame advantage the higher the opponent's percent, so you'll have more leeway if they're at a higher percent. If you're too early, you'll just get Jab2, which isn't so bad. D-Smash is Frame 11, so getting Jab1 -> Standing Grab and Jab1 -> U-Smash should also be possible if you're up close (both being Frame 12).

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I looked into this briefly a while ago but obviously I didn't test the right characters. I'll lab this in the holidays. (Anyone else is free to give it a shot until then.)

 

[Moffe]

I looked into this briefly a while ago but obviously I didn't test the right characters. I'll lab this in the holidays. (Anyone else is free to give it a shot until then.)

Tried it out! Finally found good use for up b!
Very easy to use because you can buffer it out of jab 1. Nice for racking damage on characters with similar weight as ness in mid high percent which is definately useful.


Was trying on jab infinite because of frame advantage with reverse pp or walking jabs but no success so far.

Would be nice if people post here which chars you can do this on and also what percent this start working

 

[ephOE]

Finally found good use for up b!

I've been messing around with using Up B to follow up after a bomb, the idea being that the vertical boost is enough to convert when the other player is too high % for bomb to confirm into Fair. It absolutely doesn't work on floaties like Jigglypuff or Peach, but according to Kurogane Hammer, the last hit of Spin Attack in the air has a KBG of 170(!) - easily enough to KO at those higher % (especially since you'll be pretty close to the top blast zone).

I was curious if anyone else has had success with bomb > airborne Up B or if I'm just placebo'ing myself into thinking it works. It feels very satisfying (read: it feels like ZSS) when bombs confirm into Up B KOs.

 

[LotadAlittle]

I've been messing around with using Up B to follow up after a bomb, the idea being that the vertical boost is enough to convert when the other player is too high % for bomb to confirm into Fair. It absolutely doesn't work on floaties like Jigglypuff or Peach, but according to Kurogane Hammer, the last hit of Spin Attack in the air has a KBG of 170(!) - easily enough to KO at those higher % (especially since you'll be pretty close to the top blast zone).

I was curious if anyone else has had success with bomb > airborne Up B or if I'm just placebo'ing myself into thinking it works. It feels very satisfying (read: it feels like ZSS) when bombs confirm into Up B KOs.

I know that rang - jump - bomb - double jump - up b works a lot better but I thought that was still around the same kill power as fair; I might test some stuff about it tonight.

 

[mush21]

I use bomb to up b to finish off opponents at high %s. I only use it if I know it'll kill because the recovery is obviously horrible. I like using it only because it's a cooler/flashier finisher than fair or up air.

 

[Halfy]

Let's discuss a common situation: you JCBT towards an opponent and they shield the bomb, causing it to bounce off. There are actually many options both us and our opponent have, and some of our options can cover several of theirs.

Some of the options depend on what character you are against and some other things. If the opponent is a sheik and this happens on the top platform of battlefield she will have many more and different options than if your opponent is a ROB holding a gyro on FD.

So let's simplify things by assuming for now that everything is done on a sheik who isn't holding any items and is facing towards you on the center of FD. Of course, she has her basic OOS options (roll towards you, roll away, spotdodge, grab, jump, JC usmash, JC up b). But here is where it gets complicated: sheik can jump with a huge number of options. She can SHFF forward with a fair or nair or even bair and catch the bomb, she can jump forward and airdodge throw if we don't get to the bomb first, she can even empty SHFF and grab. BUT, we can get to the bomb first because of a number of things including sheildstun, distance from the bomb, and the bomb bouncing towards us after hitting shield. This means that we can usually airdodge throw forwards before sheik can to cover most jump options.

Now it gets even more complicated because if you do this multiple times the sheik might catch on and do a retreating bomb catch or fullhop airdodge after our airdodge throw to put us at a disadvantageous position. We cdouble jump up air to catch her after the fullhop airdodge, or if she retreats and catches the bomb we can land and run forward with a grab, shield, or dash attack.

Of course, 99.9% of the time it won't get this deep so we won't have to worry about every single situation that will happen. So let's just focus on the other OOS options. If sheik rolls away, the airdodge throw covers her. If she rolls towards you, airdodge throw straight down can lead into a falling back air. You can also catch the bomb with a nair, which will hit her with the back hit. This also works if sheik spotdodges, as the first hit will catch her. It can also cover grabs if you are quick enough. You should mind your spacing just in case they decide to go for a JC up smash, which is rare. JC up b is only a worry if the opponent is playing a character with a really fast up b, such as Mario or marth. Catching the bomb with an airdodge should do the trick for this. This leaves us with the last option, which is holding shield. You could go for some shield pressure stuff, but a simple grab will do, especially at back throw kill percent.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Let's discuss a common situation: you JCBT towards an opponent and they shield the bomb, causing it to bounce off. There are actually many options both us and our opponent have, and some of our options can cover several of theirs.

Some of the options depend on what character you are against and some other things. If the opponent is a sheik and this happens on the top platform of battlefield she will have many more and different options than if your opponent is a ROB holding a gyro on FD.

So let's simplify things by assuming for now that everything is done on a sheik who isn't holding any items and is facing towards you on the center of FD. Of course, she has her basic OOS options (roll towards you, roll away, spotdodge, grab, jump, JC usmash, JC up b). But here is where it gets complicated: sheik can jump with a huge number of options. She can SHFF forward with a fair or nair or even bair and catch the bomb, she can jump forward and airdodge throw if we don't get to the bomb first, she can even empty SHFF and grab. BUT, we can get to the bomb first because of a number of things including sheildstun, distance from the bomb, and the bomb bouncing towards us after hitting shield. This means that we can usually airdodge throw forwards before sheik can to cover most jump options.

Now it gets even more complicated because if you do this multiple times the sheik might catch on and do a retreating bomb catch or fullhop airdodge after our airdodge throw to put us at a disadvantageous position. We cdouble jump up air to catch her after the fullhop airdodge, or if she retreats and catches the bomb we can land and run forward with a grab, shield, or dash attack.

Of course, 99.9% of the time it won't get this deep so we won't have to worry about every single situation that will happen. So let's just focus on the other OOS options. If sheik rolls away, the airdodge throw covers her. If she rolls towards you, airdodge throw straight down can lead into a falling back air. You can also catch the bomb with a nair, which will hit her with the back hit. This also works if sheik spotdodges, as the first hit will catch her. It can also cover grabs if you are quick enough. You should mind your spacing just in case they decide to go for a JC up smash, which is rare. JC up b is only a worry if the opponent is playing a character with a really fast up b, such as Mario or marth. Catching the bomb with an airdodge should do the trick for this. This leaves us with the last option, which is holding shield. You could go for some shield pressure stuff, but a simple grab will do, especially at back throw kill percent.

You're over-estimating the safety of bomb on-shield and under-estimating Sheik.

When a bomb (not the explosion) hits the opponent's shield, there is no shieldstun whatsoever; they can act immediately. (There is however a minimal shield duration (that doesn't apply to OoS options) in which you cannot let go of shield, and then there is the shield-drop lag, so different rules apply to OoS as opposed to shield drop options.) The only way to gain frame advantage in this scenario is to have the bomb get shielded as long after the bomb throw animation as possible, therefore the most important factors to consider are how far away you were from the opponent and whether you did a standard or a smash throw.

Let's have a look at the scenario you gave, against Sheik in the middle of FD. I'll assume that it's a standard throw and not a smash throw.

If your spacing is extremely poor and you end up throwing the bomb right next to Sheik, Sheik can Grab you without you being able to do a thing at which point she can either immediately F-throw you or time any other throw as the bomb lands to avoid the explosion. Alternatively, if Sheik was holding shield for at least 3 frames before you threw the bomb, she can drop shield and F-tilt (or D-tilt) you before you can shield, which, depending on your percent, can lead to other fun things. If she shields one frame after you start your bomb throw animation, shield drop Jab is an option. If Sheik shields on frame 8 of the bomb throw, power-shielding the explosion, she can still Grab or shield-drop Jab you. If she shields anywhere between frame 2 and 7 of the bomb throw animation, Grab is naturally an option, but shield-drop options can be avoided. (You cannot power-shield bombs themselves in the same sense that you can power-shield an explosion (which would allow the power-shielder to do shield drop options sooner) because you can only power-shield hitboxes.)

If you are just outside of Grab range (roughly a character's length away), F-tilt, D-tilt and (to a lesser extent) Jab are still potentially unavoidable options as above.

If you are just outside of F-tilt range (roughly two and a half character lengths away), Sheik can still easily jump OoS and catch the bomb first if she wants.

It's only when we are roughly 4 character lengths away, slightly more than a roll's length, that we are able to act (1 frame) before Sheik can do any OoS options, like jump for example. And even then her jump-squat is a frame faster than ours and her options for catching the bomb (e.g. Fair), if we were to contest this, not directly counter it, are far superior.

 

[LotadAlittle]

Let's discuss a common situation: you JCBT towards an opponent and they shield the bomb, causing it to bounce off. There are actually many options both us and our opponent have, and some of our options can cover several of theirs.

Some of the options depend on what character you are against and some other things. If the opponent is a sheik and this happens on the top platform of battlefield she will have many more and different options than if your opponent is a ROB holding a gyro on FD.

So let's simplify things by assuming for now that everything is done on a sheik who isn't holding any items and is facing towards you on the center of FD. Of course, she has her basic OOS options (roll towards you, roll away, spotdodge, grab, jump, JC usmash, JC up b). But here is where it gets complicated: sheik can jump with a huge number of options. She can SHFF forward with a fair or nair or even bair and catch the bomb, she can jump forward and airdodge throw if we don't get to the bomb first, she can even empty SHFF and grab. BUT, we can get to the bomb first because of a number of things including sheildstun, distance from the bomb, and the bomb bouncing towards us after hitting shield. This means that we can usually airdodge throw forwards before sheik can to cover most jump options.

Now it gets even more complicated because if you do this multiple times the sheik might catch on and do a retreating bomb catch or fullhop airdodge after our airdodge throw to put us at a disadvantageous position. We cdouble jump up air to catch her after the fullhop airdodge, or if she retreats and catches the bomb we can land and run forward with a grab, shield, or dash attack.

Of course, 99.9% of the time it won't get this deep so we won't have to worry about every single situation that will happen. So let's just focus on the other OOS options. If sheik rolls away, the airdodge throw covers her. If she rolls towards you, airdodge throw straight down can lead into a falling back air. You can also catch the bomb with a nair, which will hit her with the back hit. This also works if sheik spotdodges, as the first hit will catch her. It can also cover grabs if you are quick enough. You should mind your spacing just in case they decide to go for a JC up smash, which is rare. JC up b is only a worry if the opponent is playing a character with a really fast up b, such as Mario or marth. Catching the bomb with an airdodge should do the trick for this. This leaves us with the last option, which is holding shield. You could go for some shield pressure stuff, but a simple grab will do, especially at back throw kill percent.

What I do is:
Once it bounces off their shield I recatch it with a fair, hitting their shield with said fair.
Jump backwards to retreat on/soon after the IASA frame.
Optional, but it may be ideal to cover some of their options with a rang angled down or throwing the bomb back.

From my experiences this is pretty much unpunishable due to the great shieldstun fair has, it even does quite a fair amount of shield damage too!

 

[ephOE]

There's a lot of things you could do, including:
Regrab with an aerial and Z drop it on their sheild
Regrab with an aerial and Z drop it while retreating
Don't approach

etc.

 

[Halfy]

You're over-estimating the safety of bomb on-shield and under-estimating Sheik.

When a bomb (not the explosion) hits the opponent's shield, there is no shieldstun whatsoever; they can act immediately. (There is however a minimal shield duration (that doesn't apply to OoS options) in which you cannot let go of shield, and then there is the shield-drop lag, so different rules apply to OoS as opposed to shield drop options.) The only way to gain frame advantage in this scenario is to have the bomb get shielded as long after the bomb throw animation as possible, therefore the most important factors to consider are how far away you were from the opponent and whether you did a standard or a smash throw.

Let's have a look at the scenario you gave, against Sheik in the middle of FD. I'll assume that it's a standard throw and not a smash throw.

If your spacing is extremely poor and you end up throwing the bomb right next to Sheik, Sheik can Grab you without you being able to do a thing at which point she can either immediately F-throw you or time any other throw as the bomb lands to avoid the explosion. Alternatively, if Sheik was holding shield for at least 3 frames before you threw the bomb, she can drop shield and F-tilt (or D-tilt) you before you can shield, which, depending on your percent, can lead to other fun things. If she shields one frame after you start your bomb throw animation, shield drop Jab is an option. If Sheik shields on frame 8 of the bomb throw, power-shielding the explosion, she can still Grab or shield-drop Jab you. If she shields anywhere between frame 2 and 7 of the bomb throw animation, Grab is naturally an option, but shield-drop options can be avoided. (You cannot power-shield bombs themselves in the same sense that you can power-shield an explosion (which would allow the power-shielder to do shield drop options sooner) because you can only power-shield hitboxes.)

If you are just outside of Grab range (roughly a character's length away), F-tilt, D-tilt and (to a lesser extent) Jab are still potentially unavoidable options as above.

If you are just outside of F-tilt range (roughly two and a half character lengths away), Sheik can still easily jump OoS and catch the bomb first if she wants.

It's only when we are roughly 4 character lengths away, slightly more than a roll's length, that we are able to act (1 frame) before Sheik can do any OoS options, like jump for example. And even then her jump-squat is a frame faster than ours and her options for catching the bomb (e.g. Fair), if we were to contest this, not directly counter it, are far superior.

Wow. So I suppose we actually lose in this situation if the sheik really knows what they're doing. Then again, most players won't be able to think and react frame perfectly, so idk really. But this is only for jumping OOS, not any of the other options (which honestly thinking about it now jumping out of shield should be their most used option if they know the matchup). Maybe retreating after the bomb hits their shield really is the best option. But I feel like we can maybe do something with catching the bomb with grab then z dropping it with zair.

This is a lot deeper than I originally thought. It seemed like a simple enough situation. I guess that just goes to show how many options there are in this game.

On another note, congrats on getting into the back rooms!

 

[LotadAlittle]

On another note, congrats on getting into the back rooms!

slightly off-topic, but I never asked, what exactly are the back rooms? Is it just a mark to say you know wtf you're talking about or is it something more important to do with discussions and whatnot?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

slightly off-topic, but I never asked, what exactly are the back rooms? Is it just a mark to say you know wtf you're talking about or is it something more important to do with discussions and whatnot?

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-back-room-launched-for-wii-u-version.423377/

 

[LotadAlittle]

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-back-room-launched-for-wii-u-version.423377/

damn, well done on getting in that then.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Has someone documented percentages for true follow-ups after Jab1? There are three hitboxes on it, only one has fixed knockback, and that hitbox has the lowest priority, meaning you'd have to hit with it at the absolute max range to prevent the others from outprioritizing it. That's great, because you want the hitboxes with knockback growth to register.

Its frame advantage increases as the opponent's damage goes up. It is heavily affected by fall speed, gravity, weight, and your own Rage, to the point where it will never work on certain characters (generally speaking, the fastfallers and the extremely floaty). Much like with Jab follow-ups with Fox, you want the Jab1 to stun them for a while and then to gain extra frame advantage on their forced landing lag post-hitstun. Fastfallers land on the ground too quickly, so the frame advantage isn't great enough to follow it up against them.

I've tested it with zero Rage and have confirmed that Jab1 -> D-Smash works on Ness, who is below-average in fall speed and gravity, after 70%. The timing is strict, but you have better frame advantage the higher the opponent's percent, so you'll have more leeway if they're at a higher percent. If you're too early, you'll just get Jab2, which isn't so bad. D-Smash is Frame 11, so getting Jab1 -> Standing Grab and Jab1 -> U-Smash should also be possible if you're up close (both being Frame 12).

I'm sorry it took so long for me to test this. (I was delayed.)

The following lists every follow-up Toon can do out of Jab 1 on every character with a starting percent rounded to the nearest 5%. (I might get around to doing a finishing percent and getting percent specifics later, but from past experience, knowing how big this project is going to be, I'm taking this slowly for now).

It's all tested in 1/4 hold training mode (using my frame skip techniques) so any minor influence that rage and staleness might have on Jab 1 is not accounted for. I have assumed frame perfection on your part, so keep that in mind when considering how practical it is. Note that for any follow-up that requires an Attack/A-stick/C-stick/Grab input, there is no buffer window to make it easier.

As Reflex pointed out, there are three hitboxes on Jab 1. At the very tip of Jab 1 there is a hitbox with fixed knockback while the other two will increase in effectiveness the higher the opponent's percent.

Because however the other two hitboxes send the opponent at different trajectories, they yield different results, and so to distinguish them, I shall refer to them as HB1 (hitbox 1), and HB2 (hitbox 2). HB1 is located around Toon's hand, so you need to be close enough to the opponent that this hitbox connects and takes priority (it's by far the easiest to guarantee I've found), and it hits the opponent much more horizontally. HB2 is located in the middle of the sword and will hit the opponent more vertically than horizontally.

For Jab 1 to Jab 1 stuff, this requires you to Crouch Cancel between Jabs (as it saves a lot of frames). I'll refer to Crouch Cancelling a 'CC'. There are a few ways to CC, but my preferred method (seeing as I use the A-stick) is to hold the joystick down throughout and hit the A-stick diagonally (in any direction) with correct timing. Note that subsequent Jabs can be inputted on the frame after you start the crouch animation (so no, you don't have to be fully crouched, in fact that would just waste precious frames). In other words, while Jab 1 hits on frame 6, a CC Jab hits on frame 7 at best (which is still our fastest option). Note also that due to the hitboxes on Toon's Jab, you will not be able to keep the opponent in multiple Jab 1's (probably no more than 2), so try to finish with another follow-up (if available) as soon as it looks like they're getting out (otherwise just end it with Jab 2 and 3 or don't go for the second Jab at all). Finally just note that CCing is only necessary and is only helpful/beneficial if you want to do a Jab 1 to a Jab 1. Any other option at all can be done on the exact same frame that you can crouch on, so e.g. doing a Jab 1 > CC U-tilt would be stupid and unnecessary.

In order of how quickly they come out, these are our potential options out of Jab 1:
CC Jab: Frame 7
U-tilt: Frame 8
D-tilt: Frame 9
D-smash: Frame 9
Spin Attack: Frame 11
SH (forwards) Nair: Frame 11
Standing Grab: You'd be looking at like frame 15, minus a frame because it can't be shielded.
F-smash: Frame 15.

If an option doesn't work because it doesn't reach, (e.g. U-tilt, the first active frame of which has very poor reach), or because it misses for whatever reason (e.g. SH Nair going over people's heads due to their landing animation), or obviously if it can be avoided (e.g. by DJing before landing) it simply won't be mentioned.

I will not be testing beyond a reasonable percent, say, around 150% - 170% character dependent. So even if Jab to F-smash works at like 200%, I won't mention it.


If you have any further questions please ask.




Mario:
HB1 > CC Jab: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 90%

Luigi:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10% - 40%

Peach:
Nope.

Bowser:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > U-tilt: 90%
HB2 > U-tilt: 105%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 130%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 150%
HB2 > Up-B or Nair: 160%

Yoshi:
HB1 > CC Jab: 25%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 65%
HB1 > Nair: 100% (must be SH'd forwards obviously)

Rosalina:
Nope.

Bowser Jr:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%

Wario:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 110%

DK:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > U-tilt: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 70%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 120%
HB1 > Grab: 170%

Diddy:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 95%
HB2 > CC Jab: 110%

MG&W:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 50%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 80%

Lil Mac:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 60%
HB1 > Nair: 100%

Link:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB2 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 100%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB1 > Nair: 145%

Zelda:
Nope.

Sheik:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB2 > CC Jab: 145%

Ganon:
HB1 > CC Jab: 80%
HB2 > CC Jab: 105%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 125%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 145%

Toon:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 60%
HB1 > Nair: 90%

Samus:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10%

ZSS:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB2 > CC Jab: 130%
HB1 > Nair: 145%

Pit / Dark Pit:
HB1 > CC Jab: 5%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 50%
HB1 > Nair: 90%
HB1 > F-smash or Grab: 160%

Palutena:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB2 > CC Jab: 110%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 110%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 150%
HB1 > Nair: 150%

Marth / Lucina:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 45%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 85%
HB1 > F-smash or Grab: 160%

Ike:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 120%

Robin:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 95%
HB1 > Nair: 130%

DHD:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10%
HB1 > U-tilt: 30%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 50%
HB1 > Up-B: 90%
HB1 > Grab: 150%
HB1 > F-smash: 165%

Kirby:
Nope.

DDD:
HB1 > CC Jab: 0%
HB2 > CC Jab: 30%
HB1 > U-tilt: 30%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 55%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 80%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 105%
HB2 > Up-B or Nair: 120%

MK:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%

Fox:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB1 > Nair: 140%
HB2 > CC Jab: 150%

Falco:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt or U-tilt: 105%
HB1 > Nair: 145%
HB2 > CC Jab: 145%

Pika:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash: 105%

Charizard:
HB1 > CC Jab: 80%
HB2 > CC Jab: 100%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 125%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 135%
HB1 > Nair: 165%

Lucario:
HB1 > CC Jab: 35%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt 80%
HB1 > Nair: 125%

Jiggs:
Nope.

Greninja:
Technically the following are not guaranteed because of Shadow Sneak, but:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%

Rob:
HB1 > CC Jab: 55%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB1 > Nair: 150%

Ness:
HB1 > CC Jab: 15%
HB1 > U-tilt: 35%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 55%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 90%

CF:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 120%
HB1 > Nair: 160%
HB2 > CC Jab: 160%

Villager:
HB1 > CC Jab: 15%
HB1 > U-tilt: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 60%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 95%

Olimar:
Nope.

Wii Fit:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 115%

Shulk Vanilla:
HB1 > CC Jab: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 125%

Shulk Jump
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > CC Jab 125%
HB1 > Nair: 160%

Shulk Speed
HB1 > CC Jab: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 125%

Shulk Shield
HB1 > CC Jab 180%

Shulk Buster
HB1 > CC Jab: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 125%

Hulk Smash
HB1 > CC Jab: 15%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 55%
HB1 > Nair: 95%
HB > Grab: 140%
HB1 > F-smash: 155%

Doc:
HB1 > CC Jab: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 90%

Pac:
Nope.

MM:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > CC Jab: 125%HB1 > Nair: 170%

Sonic:
HB1 > CC Jab: 55%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 95%

Mewtwo:
HB1 > CC Jab: 5%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 45%
HB1 > Nair: 80%
HB1 > Up-B: 95%
HB1 > F-smash or Grab: 145%

Lucas:
HB1 > CC Jab: 30%
HB1 > U-tilt: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 70%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 105%
HB1 > Grab: 150%
HB1 > F-smash: 165%

Roy:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > CC Jab: 120%

Ryu:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 120%
HB2 > CC Jab: 140%

Brawler:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB2 > CC Jab: 100%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 140%
HB1 > Nair: 160%

Gunner:
HB1 > CC Jab: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt or U-tilt: 90%
HB1 > Up-B: 135%

Sword:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 100%
HB1 > Nair: 140%

 

[harlequinscrest]

Hi there everyone, I would like to give thanks for all the neat tricks. I've been playing sm4sh since launch and brought my main over from brawl(TL). Since then, I've had a decent understanding of how he works in this game. I won two local tourneys out of four that I've attended and it wasn't until then that I really wanted to step my game up. That being said, I finally decided to look within communities and other TLs to see if there was much more I can learn, so here I am.

I've read up on a good portion of what has been discussed so far and I thought I would share this bit of the arrow lock. It's fun using this against players who don't recover/tech out of it

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hi there everyone, I would like to give thanks for all the neat tricks. I've been playing sm4sh since launch and brought my main over from brawl(TL). Since then, I've had a decent understanding of how he works in this game. I won two local tourneys out of four that I've attended and it wasn't until then that I really wanted to step my game up. That being said, I finally decided to look within communities and other TLs to see if there was much more I can learn, so here I am.

I've read up on a good portion of what has been discussed so far and I thought I would share this bit of the arrow lock. It's fun using this against players who don't recover/tech out of it

I take it that this was in response to the part at the end of the arrow lock write-up that said there is no known way to set this up. Well I've added the above as well as ledge-slips and platform set ups.

 

[Dasmilitus]

Wouldn't zair to upsmash be a better option (in high lvl play) at that %? I'm not trying to be a damper.

Hi there everyone, I would like to give thanks for all the neat tricks. I've been playing sm4sh since launch and brought my main over from brawl(TL). Since then, I've had a decent understanding of how he works in this game. I won two local tourneys out of four that I've attended and it wasn't until then that I really wanted to step my game up. That being said, I finally decided to look within communities and other TLs to see if there was much more I can learn, so here I am.

I've read up on a good portion of what has been discussed so far and I thought I would share this bit of the arrow lock. It's fun using this against players who don't recover/tech out of it

 

[Halfy]

So, I was messing around I'm training mode and found that you can zdrop laglessly during the endlag of nair, or bair, and during the IASA frames of fair. This means that shorthop nair, bair, or fair can c4. So, there are some fun things you can do with this, such as moving around using aerials while holding bombs and ditching the bombs when necessary.

I'm still working on the timing for all of this (especially fair), but I successfuly do it with fair with about 58 seconds left and then again with 3 seconds left on the clock. The point isn't to show off my (lack of) tech skill with this tech; the video is only so you can visually know what I am talking about.

If you want to learn this, just be warned that the timing for bair or fair is very strict and for fair, you have to delay the c4 a few frames.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Wouldn't zair to upsmash be a better option (in high lvl play) at that %? I'm not trying to be a damper.

Arguably yeah. I mean you get the opportunity of a harder punish for a missed tech if you lock them, even from that distance, e.g. charged semi-F-smash or U-smash, but then the opponent may already be within uncharged U-smash kill percents. And then if they do tech or tech-roll, simply dashing in would far better cover this situation than shooting an arrow. But for the sake of the information provided in this list, it is enough that this is a potential set up.

So, I was messing around I'm training mode and found that you can zdrop laglessly during the endlag of nair, or bair, and during the IASA frames of fair. This means that shorthop nair, bair, or fair can c4. So, there are some fun things you can do with this, such as moving around using aerials while holding bombs and ditching the bombs when necessary.

I'm still working on the timing for all of this (especially fair), but I successfuly do it with fair with about 58 seconds left and then again with 3 seconds left on the clock. The point isn't to show off my (lack of) tech skill with this tech; the video is only so you can visually know what I am talking about.

If you want to learn this, just be warned that the timing for bair or fair is very strict and for fair, you have to delay the c4 a few frames.

This was already on the list at the end of C4, only it is impossible to C4 the bomb after a SH Bair unless you're on a stage with a tilted surface e.g. Lylate.


Edit: The OP got some much needed love and has been updated up to this post.

 

[harlequinscrest]

Arguably yeah. I mean you get the opportunity of a harder punish for a missed tech if you lock them, even from that distance, e.g. charged semi-F-smash or U-smash, but then the opponent may already be within uncharged U-smash kill percents. And then if they do tech or tech-roll, simply dashing in would far better cover this situation than shooting an arrow. But for the sake of the information provided in this list, it is enough that this is a potential set up.


This was already on the list at the end of C4, only it is impossible to C4 the bomb after a SH Bair unless you're on a stage with a tilted surface e.g. Lylate.


Edit: The OP got some much needed love and has been updated up to this post.

Now that I am dabbling more in zair options, the arrow does seem a bit excessive D: however, there are times where I haven't been able to kill with an instant usmash. I often find myself trying to get usmash out right away, making the difference between a kill or not.

Mario's tumble/hard knock starts at 111%

Cooking that extra millisecond or so of usmash makes the difference in the kill. Is that considered semi-charged?

I have the minimum percent for some characters when they start tumbling out of a zair. It might be helpful? If you're curious, here's what I got(I've only tested this on characters I commonly fight) :

Mario - 111%
Luigi - 111%
Bowser - 129%
Ike - 116%
Dorf - 119%
Pikachu - 100%
ZSS - 101%
Roy - 109%

Though players can tech/jump/attack to get out of their tumbling/hard knock animation, getting a zair in at the start of a tumble percent can let you follow up with options(kinda reminds me of dorf sideB concept and their options). Once you're way past that % though, taking that stock shouldn't be too difficult

 

[Halfy]

Now that I am dabbling more in zair options, the arrow does seem a bit excessive D: however, there are times where I haven't been able to kill with an instant usmash. I often find myself trying to get usmash out right away, making the difference between a kill or not.

Mario's tumble/hard knock starts at 111%

Cooking that extra millisecond or so of usmash makes the difference in the kill. Is that considered semi-charged?

I have the minimum percent for some characters when they start tumbling out of a zair. It might be helpful? If you're curious, here's what I got(I've only tested this on characters I commonly fight) :

Mario - 111%
Luigi - 111%
Bowser - 129%
Ike - 116%
Dorf - 119%
Pikachu - 100%
ZSS - 101%
Roy - 109%

Though players can tech/jump/attack to get out of their tumbling/hard knock animation, getting a zair in at the start of a tumble percent can let you follow up with options(kinda reminds me of dorf sideB concept and their options). Once you're way past that % though, taking that stock shouldn't be too difficult

Do you know if this is affected by rage and/or staling?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Cooking that extra millisecond or so of usmash makes the difference in the kill. Is that considered semi-charged?

Well the testing methods aren't that great, but yes, charging even for a tiny bit can make all the difference.

Though players can tech/jump/attack to get out of their tumbling/hard knock

Actually this was the part that I found interesting, because this isn't necessarily the case. Some characters cannot do an attack, special, or DJ before they land, meaning their only option is to tech (at least until they start getting hit high enough). Out of the characters you listed, Ike, Ganon, Pika, ZSS, and Roy must tech under the right conditions.
Getting a percent range that they must tech till is far more problematic however and varies greatly from character to character. Obviously the starting percent is when they first start going into tumble, but then the ending percent seems to be liable to change depending on where you hit them i.e. what sort of tumble they are forced into.

Do you know if this is affected by rage and/or staling?

The short answer is yes, staleness and rage will affect it, greatly.
There is also of course the preliminary minor issue of having the percents found in training mode which will never be entirely accurate because of the damage multiplier present in real matches. So for instance, while ZSS is listed at 101% above, which is true for training mode, the real starting percent in a real match, with no staleness or rage factoring in, is 100%. And then you have to factor in staleness and rage.
If Toon is at 100% with a fresh Zair, the starting percent on ZSS would be, shockingly, as low as 55%.
If Toon has no rage and has a fully staled Zair, then the starting percent on ZSS would be 114%.

 

[Moobussir]

I posted this in a thread about grab rewards, but it seems like a metagame advancement so I'm pasting it here as well.

Recently I've been gaining success off of comboing off D-throw, using bombs to help.
Let's say I've conditioned my opponent to shield whenever I approach them with bomb in hand and they bring up shield. I can throw my bomb up and grab them and potentially u-throw them into bomb. (I've done it on people consistently). However I have found potentially much more success by d-throwing.

You have two options when you prepare the D-throw. You can wait for the bomb to land on the ground and throw them down, letting the explosion of the bomb hit them for 4% (Or 8% if the explosion hits them instead). With the 7% of d-throw this does 11%/15%.

However, you can also d-throw them sooner, letting D-throw throw them into the bomb for 4%, which knocks them back towards you, which can lead to an aerial (Though I've only tried/gotten Up-air). Without followup, you still get 11%, the same as if you Up-threw them, but now you have another option if you can't get the Up-Throw/Bomb combo.

And if you want to mix up your approach even further if you keep getting these D-throw combo's, you could run to them with bomb in hand and jump back with boomerang/arrow as your defense, seeing if they dropped shield to approach you. So you're not always going to be predictable if you start getting these.

I think there's a ton of potential in this. What do you guys think?

Edit: Fixed some wording to be more on topic, and spacing.

 

[LotadAlittle]

I posted this in a thread about grab rewards, but it seems like a metagame advancement so I'm pasting it here as well.

Recently I've been gaining success off of approach mixups with bomb in hand and preparing to grab.
Let's say I've conditioned my opponent to shield whenever I approach them with bomb in hand and they bring up shield. I can throw bomb up and grab them and potentially u-throw them into bomb. (I've done it on people consistently). However I have found potentially much more success by d-throwing.
You have two options when you prepare the d-throw. You can wait for the bomb to land on the ground and throw them down, letting the explosion of the bomb hit them for 8% (Or 4% if the bomb hits them instead), with the 7% of d-throw this does 11%/15%. I've also d-throwed them sooner, letting D-throw throw them into the bomb for 4%, which knocks them back towards me, potentially landing U-air, F-air, B-air, N-air, whatever you want. Without followup, you still get 11%, the same as if you u-threw them.
And if you want to mix up your approach even further if you keep getting these d-throw combo's, you could run to them with bomb in hand and jump back with boomerang as your defense, seeing if they dropped shield to approach you.
I think there's a ton of potential in this.

PS, The whole "Waiting after grab for bomb" for u-throw doesn't work quite as well as d-throw. D-throw keeps your opponent in the same consistent position for longer, where up-throw they fluctuate in height, and if you mis-time u-throw, your opponent can DI away before the bomb hits you and it'll just end up hitting you. And you don't get as many followups if your bomb hits them after the throw anyway, since they've been hit so far up already.

I've done up throw into bomb a few times before when I see they shield my approaches, I've got it more often against fox/mario/zelda etc. because they try to reflect more than most players would try to shield it. However, any competent player will definitely di away from the bomb. You can still get the up throw and bomb guaranteed though, just time it so the bomb hits them during the up throw animation - when you're still holding them. This doesn't even hurt you because all throws (at least I think all) have invincibility during most of the animation, but the player getting thrown gets no invincibility. You should only try this at higher %s, you want to hold them for around the length of 2 pummels before you throw them to time it right so at low %s they could mash out. this probably works with all throws but I'm pretty sure up throw is the easiest; correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Moobussir]

The big science of breaking out is in the % difference. You can imagine the character with more % as "more tired", and thus has a harder time in the grab game. Say, if the grabbed is at 100% and the grabber is at 10%, you can get more pummels in since the grabbed is "exhausted", but if the grabber is at 100% and the grabbed is at 10%, the grabbed can escape since grabber is tired here.
But to the point I wish to mention, is the d-throw and bomb combo worth exploring into? I seriously think it's got a ton of potential if we can master it.

 

[LotadAlittle]

The big science of breaking out is in the % difference. You can imagine the character with more % as "more tired", and thus has a harder time in the grab game. Say, if the grabbed is at 100% and the grabber is at 10%, you can get more pummels in since the grabbed is "exhausted", but if the grabber is at 100% and the grabbed is at 10%, the grabbed can escape since grabber is tired here.
But to the point I wish to mention, is the d-throw and bomb combo worth exploring into? I seriously think it's got a ton of potential if we can master it.

idk, I'll look into it tonight, didn't know that our % affects grab lengths though.

 

[Moobussir]

idk, I'll look into it tonight, didn't know that our % affects grab lengths though.

It's a universal mechanic that, to my knowledge, has been in every Smash game, except 64 of course. Also, you might want to know that pummeling decreases the amount of time it takes for the opponent to escape. I've generally noticed that if the grabber has less percent than the grab, pummel once for every 20-30% approx. in distance. So if the grabbed is at 70% and the grabber is at 30%, 2-3 pummels is how many you can fit before your opponent is very likely to escape. This is for Toon Link ofc. Fast pummelers like Kirby can get more, and slow ones like Zelda get far less.
To talk more advanced, if you're waiting on a projectile to come back and hit your opponent, you may want to consider if pummeling is a good choice or not. Say you want your projectile to hit your opponent while still in grab, like a returning boomerang. Don't pummel, let it return to hit them, then throw. Or, if you want to have that boomerang hit them right as they are released from your grab, which can be an extremely powerful setup into, say, an F-smash or D-smash, pay attention to pummeling and how much mashing your opponent is doing.
This is all in theory of course. I've let my boomerangs hit my opponents while still in grab, and I've thrown my opponents into bombs quite often, but haven't tried the grab release -> returning boomerang -> finisher setup. That would be really amazing to do though.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

For your information:

The following is tested in training mode, and I start counting the frames from when Toon starts to grab, not when Jiggs/Bowser actually get grabbed.


Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 102.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 102.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 102.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 102.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 31.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 31.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 24.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 24.


Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 187.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 187.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 187.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 187.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 33.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 33.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 30.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 30.

---

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 102.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 102.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 102.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 102.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 31.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 31.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 35.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 35.


Bowser at 50%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 187.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 187.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 187.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 187.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 33.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 33.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 29.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 29.

 

[Moobussir]

For your information:

The following is tested in training mode, and I start counting the frames from when Toon starts to grab, not when Jiggs/Bowser actually get grabbed.


Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 102.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 102.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 102.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 102.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 31.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 31.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 24.

Jiggs at 0%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 24.


Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 187.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 187.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 187.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Jiggs breaks free on frame 187.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 33.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 33.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 30.

Jiggs at 50%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, Jiggs mashing every 2 frames, Jiggs breaks free on frame 30.

---

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 102.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 102.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 102.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 102.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 31.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 31.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 35.

Bowser at 0%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 35.


Bowser at 50%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 187.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 187.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 187.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, no mashing, Bowser breaks free on frame 187.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 0%, no pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 33.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 50%, no pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 33.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 0%, Toon pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 29.

Bowser at 50%, Toon at 50%, Toon pummeling, Bowser mashing every 2 frames, Bowser breaks free on frame 29.

Really? I'm actually surprised. I've noticed that when I'm at higher percents, I can't hold my opponent for long. A case of placebo perhaps? Training mode has nothing to interfere here, correct?

My bad LotadAlittle , a case of misinformation. I guess we do still need to make sure of their percent first and foremost.

 

[Zediwonder]

I'm sure this is already tested but I need to ask.

Is it possible for bomb > up b conversions to happen at KO percents beyond the range of fair? I was testing it out in training mode on both bots doing nothing and bots set to attack and on both it worked, though spin attack still failed to kill till 150ish% from mid stage. My testing so far has been very limited but I want to know if it's at least a possibility for later KO conversions when you can't hit the fair.

So far I've tested it out on Peach and Samus and it's worked on both reasonably, this was also tested with Toon Link with no rage

 

[LotadAlittle]

I'm sure this is already tested but I need to ask.

Is it possible for bomb > up b conversions to happen at KO percents beyond the range of fair? I was testing it out in training mode on both bots doing nothing and bots set to attack and on both it worked, though spin attack still failed to kill till 150ish% from mid stage. My testing so far has been very limited but I want to know if it's at least a possibility for later KO conversions when you can't hit the fair.

So far I've tested it out on Peach and Samus and it's worked on both reasonably, this was also tested with Toon Link being at 130% rage so KO's most likely happened much earlier than normal.

Not sure. All I know is that custom up b 3 kills about 20% earlier.

 

[Moobussir]

I'm sure this is already tested but I need to ask.

Is it possible for bomb > up b conversions to happen at KO percents beyond the range of fair? I was testing it out in training mode on both bots doing nothing and bots set to attack and on both it worked, though spin attack still failed to kill till 150ish% from mid stage. My testing so far has been very limited but I want to know if it's at least a possibility for later KO conversions when you can't hit the fair.

So far I've tested it out on Peach and Samus and it's worked on both reasonably, this was also tested with Toon Link with no rage

First off, I'm going to assume you are talking about aerial Up-B, since you're talking about ranges above the F-air connection. But as an afterthought, at low percents, bomb -> Grounded Up-B is a great option if your opponent is close up to you, and usually if they're a fast faller, since they'll just land in front of behind you, and you'll safely cover both options (Although Footstool may be better, but I need to practice that XD)

I've done the bomb -> Up-B converstion before, it's a viable option. The reason we often don't see it though is because either we're usually not in a favourable position once the bomb connects, or there are more favourable options. When F-air can no longer connect reliably, and your opponent is still close by, Up-Air ends up being the best option. Even if the initial hit of Up-air misses, the lingering hitbox forces your opponent to jump or airdodge, where the former will put your opponent somewhere unfavourable for them, or the latter can still KO or hit them if you chase them properly.

However, if your opponent is diagonally above you and you cannot chase with Up-air properly (Say if you have no jumps), Spin attack will work. Vs characters with poor aerial mobility, like Meta Knight or Dedede, I can see it working. But since it's a weaker KO move, don't expect it to KO often. It'll add percent though, and knock your opponent away (Probably off-stage too), and it'll scare your opponent with this new option you've unveiled to them XD

tl;dr: If F-air or Up-air won't connect, no matter the %, go for it, as long as you know it's guaranteed and you'll be safe afterwards.

Edit: Minor grammar and spelling.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I'm sure this is already tested but I need to ask.

Is it possible for bomb > up b conversions to happen at KO percents beyond the range of fair? I was testing it out in training mode on both bots doing nothing and bots set to attack and on both it worked, though spin attack still failed to kill till 150ish% from mid stage. My testing so far has been very limited but I want to know if it's at least a possibility for later KO conversions when you can't hit the fair.

So far I've tested it out on Peach and Samus and it's worked on both reasonably, this was also tested with Toon Link being at 130% rage so KO's most likely happened much earlier than normal.

Well for starters there is no rage in training mode just ftr.

Bomb to Aerial Up-B will eventually kill outright while still comboing, yes. The real problem will be finding situations where you'd rather not use either Fair or Uair though, which is going to be more difficult/situational than you'd imagine.

 

[HeroOfWinds]

Ive found some pretty good stuff for toon recently. Much of it is centered around setting up for an fsmash because it kills so damn early.

Ill be labbing later for exact % later on.

SH nair moving forward and landing through them will true combo into an fsmash if only the first hit of nair hits.

At 70%+ close range zair with forward momentum true combos in fsmash if they miss the tech, and fsmash can be delayed for a tech read if they get the tech.

Finally, an fsmash shield break trap:

So normally if you fsmash on shield your opponent will do a few options, grab you if your not spaced well, drop shield to try to hit you, jump away, roll away, or stay in shield expecting the 2nd hit for a free punish.

First condition your opponent to stay shielding lest they take the second hit from the massive mindgamey delay.
Second on a full shield, do dtilt on shield immediately following with fsmash hit 1 on shield, then wait for the 2nd hit delay to end and immediately throw out another fsmash hit 1. If they stayed in shield and take a second hit 1 from fsmash, immediately do hit 2 with no delay to pop their shield. Then walk them closer to edge and fully charge fsmash to kill the majority of the cast at 60%+.

I have already done this against live people in tournaments, and can confirm this works.

The main trick is to condition them to stay in shield expecting you to use hit 2 of fsmash so they can punish it for free. Videos of this shield break tech coming soon. Im thinking of calling it the "Toon Fsmash Trick Trap"

Open to better names^^

 

[LotadAlittle]

Ive found some pretty good stuff for toon recently. Much of it is centered around setting up for an fsmash because it kills so damn early.

Ill be labbing later for exact % later on.

SH nair moving forward and landing through them will true combo into an fsmash if only the first hit of nair hits.

At 70%+ close range zair with forward momentum true combos in fsmash if they miss the tech, and fsmash can be delayed for a tech read if they get the tech.

Finally, an fsmash shield break trap:

So normally if you fsmash on shield your opponent will do a few options, grab you if your not spaced well, drop shield to try to hit you, jump away, roll away, or stay in shield expecting the 2nd hit for a free punish.

First condition your opponent to stay shielding lest they take the second hit from the massive mindgamey delay.
Second on a full shield, do dtilt on shield immediately following with fsmash hit 1 on shield, then wait for the 2nd hit delay to end and immediately throw out another fsmash hit 1. If they stayed in shield and take a second hit 1 from fsmash, immediately do hit 2 with no delay to pop their shield. Then walk them closer to edge and fully charge fsmash to kill the majority of the cast at 60%+.

I have already done this against live people in tournaments, and can confirm this works.

The main trick is to condition them to stay in shield expecting you to use hit 2 of fsmash so they can punish it for free. Videos of this shield break tech coming soon. Im thinking of calling it the "Toon Fsmash Trick Trap"

Open to better names^^

That seems like a pretty good mixup, just don't get into the habit of f smashing too much. It may kill early as hell but it can be DI'd and jumped out of before the second hit, it also has a ton of lag, making it not so safe on shield - even if you get both hits.

Anyway, so the mixup you're describing is (with all on shield): D tilt - f smash 1 - (wait) - f smash 2 - f smash 1 - shield break punish? Please correct me if I'm wrong. A few things to note: in quite a few situations fully charged f smash is not the ideal punish, especially against the more floaty characters. One of my favourite punishes which is pretty stylish and can kill those with god awful recoveries as early as 20% and others around 60% is (and this very close to the ledge): sh - bomb throw down (so it hits in front of them and sends them off-stage) - footstool (optional, only for style) - dair. If you space it correctly then they're launched into the oblivion and you land safely on-stage with 5 million years of landing lag. There are many other, probably better punishes but this is just a good stylish one. Also, this seems like it'd take quite a lot of conditioning to pull this off (or just a bad opponent) so idk how useful it could be.

 

[HeroOfWinds]

No

That seems like a pretty good mixup, just don't get into the habit of f smashing too much. It may kill early as hell but it can be DI'd and jumped out of before the second hit, it also has a ton of lag, making it not so safe on shield - even if you get both hits.

Anyway, so the mixup you're describing is (with all on shield): D tilt - f smash 1 - (wait) - f smash 2 - f smash 1 - shield break punish? Please correct me if I'm wrong. A few things to note: in quite a few situations fully charged f smash is not the ideal punish, especially against the more floaty characters. One of my favourite punishes which is pretty stylish and can kill those with god awful recoveries as early as 20% and others around 60% is (and this very close to the ledge): sh - bomb throw down (so it hits in front of them and sends them off-stage) - footstool (optional, only for style) - dair. If you space it correctly then they're launched into the oblivion and you land safely on-stage with 5 million years of landing lag. There are many other, probably better punishes but this is just a good stylish one. Also, this seems like it'd take quite a lot of conditioning to pull this off (or just a bad opponent) so idk how useful it could be.

No its dtilt > fsmash 1 > fsmash 1> fsmash 2.
They stay in shield expecting you to delay the second laggy hit of fsmash so they can punish, and instead you delay to restart fsmash 1 to break their shield.

Dtilt is optional and is only there as a way to weaken a full shield enough. If you have already weakened their shield from projectiles and other moves, you can skip the dtilt and just do fs1, fs1, fs2.

Best part is, with proper spacing they either get hit or stay in shield and get broke.


Also heres a few facts about smash:

1. Except at the very tip, all fast fallers and fast medium fallers are trapped in fsmash after they patched all multihit moves to trap better.
2. If the oppoent is touching toon link/on top of him/barely behind him, it doesnt matter how floaty they are, fs1 to fs2 combos due to the hitbox being a triangle shape that slopes away from toon link but is higher near him.

 

[Halfy]

Also, this seems like it'd take quite a lot of conditioning to pull this off (or just a bad opponent) so idk how useful it could be.

I agree with this. Fsmash isn't the best thing to throw out in neutral, or in any situation really besides roll reads. How do you expect to condition them that much?

 

[HeroOfWinds]

I agree with this. Fsmash isn't the best thing to throw out in neutral, or in any situation really besides roll reads. How do you expect to condition them that much?

Easy, at early % hit an smash on shield and do the 2nd on purpose and get punished. And keep up shueld pressure with projectiles. It doesnt have to be dtilt, just as long as they dont have a full shield fs1, fs1, fs2 will break