Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[mmik]

Very important difference with how the items work though, worth noting. (Like my previous post says)

 

[Kipcom]

I just finished playing a Pac-Man player online and I stole his fruit.

That moment of desperation where he's on the other side of the stage spamming his neutral B for a fruit to come out, but to no avail. Absolutely beautiful.

I look forward to fighting ROB and Bowser Jr. players who spam the top and the mecha koopas.

 

[SoniCraft]

I actually played a ROB for the first time a couple days ago. It wasn't pretty for me He played a very reactive playstyle(a lot of For Glory people actually play this way), and I couldn't do anything about it. I tried pocketing the gyro, and I got it a couple times(it was pretty funny XD). He learned to bait it out though and I would be stuck in pocket animation lag, and he punished. Not fun.

 

[Darklink401]

I actually played a ROB for the first time a couple days ago. It wasn't pretty for me He played a very reactive playstyle(a lot of For Glory people actually play this way), and I couldn't do anything about it. I tried pocketing the gyro, and I got it a couple times(it was pretty funny XD). He learned to bait it out though and I would be stuck in pocket animation lag, and he punished. Not fun.

Rob's not so easy for Villager, because his aerials HURT.

 

[SoniCraft]

Rob's not so easy for Villager, because his aerials HURT.

Ah yes I forgot about the dthrow upairs that I couldn't escape >.<. I actually killed myself early off the top trying to VI out of one lol.

 

[Darklink401]

What's VI? o.o

Also not to mention trying to recover, as our friend Zeezee can attest to, while a ROB is chasing you, can be quite an...ordeal.

 

[SoniCraft]

VI - Vectorial Influence.

I think it's a better term than Vectoring or DI. DI is Directional Influence, but VI influences both direction AND knockback, hence the new term. Vectoring just sounds bad to me lol so VI it is.

 

[mmik]

Considering what the actual words themselves mean, I kind of think it's dumb to change the term used anyway. Airdodging is different than it used to be but it's still called air dodging.

 

[SoniCraft]

That's because it's still a dodging manuever in the air. VI is a different concept from DI. DI means the knockback is the same, but you change your direction. I've heard of KI(Knockback Influence), but that would just mean you only change the knockback, which isn't true. Therefore, VI is the best term to use because it is both knockback influence and directional influence.

 

[Darklink401]

You change the knockback by....holding down the opposite direction of which you were launched?

 

[Zurangatang]

You change the knockback by....holding down the opposite direction of which you were launched?

Opposite to get knocked a shorter distance or the same direction so you fly farther away.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Does anyone have any advice for fighting Duck Hunt Duo?

Fought one the other day and just could not get past the projectile spam. There's too many for Pocket work effectively (not that I found Pocket to help me much...rather get me killed when I tried to use Can ). Dash Attack goes through Clay Pigeon which is great but that only works so many times :/

 

[Kohak]

Does anyone have any advice for fighting Duck Hunt Duo?

Fought one the other day and just could not get past the projectile spam. There's too many for Pocket work effectively (not that I found Pocket to help me much...rather get me killed when I tried to use Can ). Dash Attack goes through Clay Pigeon which is great but that only works so many times :/

I've found that using timber just for the sake of having it block DH's projectiles is very effective. Be wise with your pockets, a lot of the times the clay pigeons aren't worth it. Shield those and go for the can instead. You're going to have to play really defensively. Similar to the villager, DH's recovery is very punishable- take advantage of that.

 

[Blue Mage]

I've found that using timber just for the sake of having it block DH's projectiles is very effective. Be wise with your pockets, a lot of the times the clay pigeons aren't worth it. Shield those and go for the can instead. You're going to have to play really defensively. Similar to the villager, DH's recovery is very punishable- take advantage of that.

Tree is good for blocking the Wild Gunman, but be careful of standing too close to it if Duck Hunt throws a clay pigeon (and a can of course). The blast radius of the clay pigeon explosion is pretty huge, and can hit you behind the tree if you're not careful.

As for pocketing, I agree the can is our prime target. Although it's slow and doesn't go very far, it explodes instantly when it touches the ground, and can be good for harassing Duck Hunt trying to recover.

 

[Player-1]

I'd like to talk about DDD. He seems campable, but I don't think our damage output is good enough on him while he has a very large damage output when does get in. dthrow seems to combo into nair or fair for quite a while and I think Villager is easily shield grabbable by him with his large grab range, maybe that has to do with 3ds controls and it being harder to space outside grab ranges though.

 

[mmik]

With him being so large, I think short hopped aerials might be a good option, while trying to keep out of his range. I haven't gotten the matchup too often though.

 

[PedroSmashFan2014]

villager has an advantage against the heavyweights... But how much?
How about Villager vs Bowser matchup? Bowser seems pretty good in this game!

 

[RAzul]

Tips against ROB--PLEASE. (Other than the gyro pocketing technique.) I need to know how to kill that asshole.

 

[mmik]

I've never fought rob online. how do the matches go?

 

[SoniCraft]

I've fought one, and it didn't go well. Punished everything I did with a dthrow uair, and recovering wasn't fun either.

 

[RAzul]

I just finished playing a Pac-Man player online and I stole his fruit.

That moment of desperation where he's on the other side of the stage spamming his neutral B for a fruit to come out, but to no avail. Absolutely beautiful.

I look forward to fighting ROB and Bowser Jr. players who spam the top and the mecha koopas.

I've fought one, and it didn't go well. Punished everything I did with a dthrow uair, and recovering wasn't fun either.

He's pretty broken from what I've noticed. His side b reflect projectiles, his laser comes out super fast and his top is a problem unless you pocket it and keep it early. He has a ridiculous recovery from the bottom of the stage unless you mange to bowling ball punish, spike or d/fair OS. I have been having a really hard time fighting him and am really just trying to figure out the best ways to damage him as much as possible before I get that final kill. I think the best approaches are to just be very patient, shield a lot and spot dodge because his grab when you're shielded is quick and very irritating when repeated. I am a very aggressive player so I believe I'll need to just slow down a lot more.

 

[Kohak]

Tips against ROB--PLEASE. (Other than the gyro pocketing technique.) I need to know how to kill that *******.

I play a lot of Rob, so I think I can help a little.

Without saying, pocketing the gyro is a given. Don't be too eager to grab it though, seeing as a good Rob won't just give it to you. Look for openings and snatch it away. Rob has very limited ariel approaches, Nair is the most common. Sheild grab to counter that. Try to have trees out at all times, seeing as he's such a big target. Be aggressive with fairs and bairs, since he's tall and doesn't have much ariel approaches. Tilts are also key. Robs will use dtilts for days. Villagers dtilit has just as good range. Bowling Ball over ledge is also super good since his recovery makes him helpless.

 

[Mr.CreamCakes]

Zelda can reflect quite a lot of thinks that villager has and she can combo quite well. u guys have seen what her farores wind can do now right? She can also force villager to approach. I see the match up at 40-60 in zeldas favor.

He completely walls out Ike since ike has no solution to villagers fair, bair, and lloids. Ike cant range out villager either. When ike is in lag villager can combo him or kill him easily. the match its probably 80-20 in villagers favor

these r my opinions

 

[Fatmanonice]

Does anyone have any advice for fighting Duck Hunt Duo?

Fought one the other day and just could not get past the projectile spam. There's too many for Pocket work effectively (not that I found Pocket to help me much...rather get me killed when I tried to use Can ). Dash Attack goes through Clay Pigeon which is great but that only works so many times :/

-Use the pocket sparingly and I'd recommend using it more on the clay discs than the cans.
-Use the tree and Lloid as shields in the face of projectile spam.
- Fair and Bair can easily trump most of the projectiles too and take down the gunman if used close enough.
-Use jab, ftilt, and dtilt up close.
-Duck Hunt Doge's air game is fairly predictable so you can easily control the situation if you get him up in the air.

 

[Kohak]

This isn't character specific, but how do you Villagers play against opponents who are overly defensive/ love to run away. I've played a needle spamming sheik who would hit and run tilts and airs, which was annoying. I've also played Falcos who run and gun, also reflecting lloids. Playing against people like this forces me to get more aggressive, where I usually make mistakes. Any tips? I'm sick up having to chase people around until the timer runs out.

 

[SoniCraft]

^ I hate facing these guys too. Especially since For Glory doesn't count a win by percent, playing against campy players a Villager is super stupid and annoying. If it were a tournament set, out camping a sheik or greninja shouldn't be too hard, but in For Glory it's a different story.

 

[deepseadiva]

Villager is so strange. Pocket is a very polarizing move and singlehandedly the reason to use Villager versus Dedede, Koopalings, Diddy, Greninja, Link, Lucario, Samus, Toon Link, and Wii Fit Trainer. Characters you can react to their projectiles and punish them with. It's a much stronger version of a "reflector" that you can use on your terms that removes their threatening move, and gives you one to use in return. But likewise, there are campy characters Pocket isn't very effective against... say Falco, Megaman, Rob, Pit, Yoshi, and particularly Sheik. There spam tools either are too quick to react to, or are simply not good enough to Pocket (before getting hit with another needle or laser or whatever). And then you're being peppered with crap you're not particularly built to deal with, Villager loses his main appeal. I think Villager can get by against Rob and such. They have weaknesses of their own we can exploit, but thinking in terms of natural advantages and disadvantages, you'll probably have a harder time with Villager when another character would do better versus them.

Slingshot is going to be such an annoying move in this game I swear.

 

[RAzul]

I play a lot of Rob, so I think I can help a little.

Without saying, pocketing the gyro is a given. Don't be too eager to grab it though, seeing as a good Rob won't just give it to you. Look for openings and snatch it away. Rob has very limited ariel approaches, Nair is the most common. Sheild grab to counter that. Try to have trees out at all times, seeing as he's such a big target. Be aggressive with fairs and bairs, since he's tall and doesn't have much ariel approaches. Tilts are also key. Robs will use dtilts for days. Villagers dtilit has just as good range. Bowling Ball over ledge is also super good since his recovery makes him helpless.

Very very helpful man, thanks a ton!

 

[Kohak]

Very very helpful man, thanks a ton!

Np man. If you ever need Rob practice I'm game. I actually want some Villager practice too. FC is in my sig

 

[hiramsthoughts]

Don't think I've heard of this being mentioned so I'll post it anyway. We know by now that you can keep an item like Gyro, Mechakoopa, Banana... and pull it out and back in to avoid them from getting it back, until you lose a stock or they do, right? Wrong! If you pull out the item as soon as your opponent dies, before the flying thingy brings them back, and pocket it again whenever they reappear, they will still be unable to pull one off, even when starting a whole new stock.

 

[Kohak]

Don't think I've heard of this being mentioned so I'll post it anyway. We know by now that you can keep an item like Gyro, Mechakoopa, Banana... and pull it out and back in to avoid them from getting it back, until you lose a stock or they do, right? Wrong! If you pull out the item as soon as your opponent dies, before the flying thingy brings them back, and pocket it again whenever they reappear, they will still be unable to pull one off, even when starting a whole new stock.

Wow did not know that. Really useful. It almost seems ban worthy haha

 

[SoniCraft]

Now if only we could pocket Luma...

 

[Makai Wars]

I haven't played many Pac-Mans so far, but I want to talk about something, his Neutral B.

As you may know, some of Pac-Man's fruit can pierce straight through Lloid and the Tree, and hit us behind it (the Galaxian ship for sure, and I think the key does it too). All of the fruits destroy Lloid on impact, making projectile camping against him somewhat of a stalemate.

The thing about Pac-Man's Neutral B is that when a fruit is on the field, or in someone's hand, Pac-Man cannot throw any fruit until the current one disappears. Now, any character can grab the fruit and lock Pac-Man out of his Neutral B, but as Villager, I feel like we can control this much better thanks to Pocket. Pac-Man's fruits are one of the few items that transfer to Villager's hand instead of being automatically thrown like other projectiles. Unlike other characters, we don't have to throw the fruit to have access to our A moves. We can simply Pocket the fruit we need to, and pull it out again.

The few Pac-Mans I've played online love to throw fruit all over the place, so I think we should abuse and control the fact that we can lock him out of his own move at will. With fruit in our hand, we can pester Pac-Man from afar with Lloids to force him to block or approach, we can plant and water our Tree, and probably most importantly, we have our Axe.

Although locking Pac-Man out of his Neutral B is harder to do VS other character we can do this to (Pac-Man can charge fruit if yours is currently Pocketed), I think that intelligent use of Pocketing and holding the fruit will give us an edge in this fight. It gives us one less thing to worry about over the course of the match, and of course if we catch something awesome like the key, we could definitely use that to our advantage.

Any thoughts on this? I hope I'm not too terrible overrating this move I spent forever theoryfighting this matchup today for some reason.

While it's true we can lock down the fruit rain, it's worth mentioning that 9 times out of 10, Pacs will go for the key over much anything else. The key flies at CRAZY speeds and any Pac worth his salt would be able to put us in a position where pocketing it simply isn't an option.

And, should we obtain the fruit, when we have it, there's not too much we can do outside of throwing it again. You could set up a tree and chill out behind it, but Pac could easily hop over or side-B himself all up in your face. Pocketing the fruit is cool but in my option, what we should be after, as Villagers, is the hydrant.

I've been fighting my friend who has Pac as a secondary and was confused as to when the hydrant came out, there were times I couldn't pocket it. Sometimes I could and sometimes I couldn't, it didn't make sense! But now I know:

When Pac tosses out the hydrant, while it's falling and before it shoots out water, this is when you can pocket it. I think this is because it counts as a projectile during this phase, but after the water shoots out, it loses the projectile qualities and turns into the same thing Villager's balloons, Greninja's subsitute doll and the Sandbag are- items that aren't quite items.

Anyway, pocketing the hydrant has more pluses than pocketing the fruit- those being:

• Shuts down Pac hydrant shenanigans (i.e. mobile smash attacks)
• gives you a projectile with a unique range, and with the lloid Rocket, gives you coverage from all directions but above
• makes you impossibly annoying to deal with (if you weren't already)

I also believe when the hydrant goes flying it deals 1.9 the amount of damage a regular hydrant does but I'm not certain.

I also wanted to bring up the fact that we can pocket Pac Man's trampoline. Do with this info what you will.

With all this in mind, I can't help but think the Villager/Pac MU HAS to be in our favor.

 

[BadKarma]

Quick question. Who would you consider viligers worst matchups?

 

[mmik]

Palutena and rosalina, personally.

 

[fireballtr]

I am really struggling to beat Palutena players with Villager, does anyone have a good response to them?
This tourny vid is pretty much how they go youtube .com/watch?v=c2xOQ79yhFk

I've mostly been trying to get them to reflect the tree in such a way that I can pocket it and pull it out inbetween uairs, dairs and nairs, but this makes me way more predictable than I am comfortable with and is countered if they start reading with shield grabs.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

ROB isn't particularly difficult to deal with imo. His UpB was really nerfed in terms of defensive versatility in that extremely mobile aerials aren't really a thing anymore. You can cover ROB's recovery extremely safely from all directions except when he's recovering high, because a well spaced DAir usually beats out UAir, and its harder to bait out aerials when you're coming in from below rather than from above.

Laser was also nerfed. Full charge isn't as strong in terms of KB, and in my experience the basic laser charge really lost out on a lot of important angles. Trajectories that I could hit consistently in Brawl I find myself now missing by just a hair. You need to be nearly level with ROB if he wants to pop both of your balloons with one laser, otherwise I'm pretty sure only the fully charged one hits both. Even then if he hits you in addition to your balloons, you get your recovery back.

Gyro is sort of eh. On one hand by reducing the overall distance it covers when shot it's arguably an even better spacing tool than before. I also think that z-drop shenanigans can hurt our recovery, namely by knocking us clean off Lloid and possibly popping both balloons (if you're recovering with little horizontal movement Gyro can pop one balloon, bounce off, then hit the other before you've had a chance to move it out of the way). Overall it's just much more immediately available to ROB. So it's better in that respect. On the other hand we have Pocket, which really dissuades ROB from pulling Gyro out as much as they'd like. Right now the best ROB in smash 4 that I know of is Chibo, and watching his videos in addition to z-dropping he uses a lot of short hopped uncharged Gyro shots both for spacing and approaching, mainly going for the Gyro to actually hit rather than wanting it to land. To be honest I'm not entirely sure how to best bait one of these out to nab the Gyro. Since it knocks you away and bounces back a bit, it's actually pretty safe for ROB because he can just catch it without worrying too much about you interfering. So I guess your best bet would be to just predict when one of these is coming and Pocketing rather than airdodging or whatever. Of course, this isn't a very good idea if they're approaching, because they can just FAir the Gyro out of you before you've had a chance to put it away.

 

[Player-1]

I feel like sheik is villager's worst MU

 

[SoniCraft]

I haven't fought any sheik's that have given me too much trouble yet so I can't be sure on that MU. I kinda find it hard to believe it's his worst though, especially if we have custom moves. Pushy Loid ftw

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Sheik has the capability of handily dealing with Lloid and Balloons. A few other characters can do this too (Marth and Lucina come to mind with their disjointed aerials), but Sheik has a very good projectile with which to mix up the process. There's also the fact that pocketing needles isn't a realistic option in most scenarios, so we essentially have a moveslot of ours voided. Regarding Balloons, Sheik doesn't have to risk going offstage nor accidentally hitting us (potentially giving us our recovery back). Plus, the fact that needles come out at least three at a time (I think the minimum is three... is it?) means that there's no hope that a single balloon will absorb the hit, as is the case with most projectiles. Getting both balloons popped at once is a very real possibility in this MU.

I suppose in this case standard would be the best timber variation. Counter won't be countering much very often, and standard's higher HP means that it can tank needle spam longer and at least block out bouncing fish. To be honest though I haven't played a good Sheik in smash 4 so idk, this is all just super theory bros.